rREASUfti  ROOM 


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TESTIMONY 


TAKEN  BEFORE 

The  Legislative  Committee 


Investigate  the  State  Hospital 
for  the  Insane 

at  Columbia 


April  28,  May  4,  6,  7,  18,  19,  20, 

1909 


COLUMBIA,  S.  C. 

GONZALES  AND  BRYAN,  STATE  PRINTERS. 
1910. 


TESTIMONY 


TAKEN  BEFORE 


The  Legislative  Committee 


Investigate  tke  State  Hospital 
for  tke  Insane 

at  Columbia 


April  28,  May  4,  6,  7,  18,  19,  20, 

1909 


COLUMBIA,  S.  C. 

GONZALES  AND  BRYAN,  STATE  PRINTERS. 
1910. 


11  ,_|tf . v:'  9  7  4A . 7 

CONTENTS 

^  O.'  '/ 


Witnesses. 

page. 

*F'irst  Ex-Inmate . 35 

^Second  Ex-Inmate . 96 

Ex-Nurse,  Mr.  Henry  C.  Wilson . 134 

Second  Ex-Inmate  recalled . 150 

First  Assistant  Physician,  Dr.  J.  L.  Thompson . 150 

Supervisor,  Mr.  J.  M.  Mitchell . 196 

First  Assistant  Physician,  Dr.  J.  L.  Thompson,  recalled  .  .  257 

Assistant  Physician,  Dr.  Eleanora  B.  Saunders  ....  269 

First  Assistant  Physician,  Dr.  J.  L.  Thompson,  recalled  .  .  297 

Treasurer,  Mr.  J.  W.  Bunch . 308 

Dairy  Manager,  Mr.  D.  F.  Hedgpath . 339 

Treasurer,  Mr.  J.  W.  Bunch,  recalled . 343 

Foreman  of  Main  Kitchen,  Mr.  Henry  P.  Earle  ....  350 

Superintendent,  Dr.  J.  W.  Babcock . 361 

Assistant  Physician,  Dr.  H.  H.  Griffin . 421 


Hearings. 

April  27 . 

April  28 . 

May  4 .  ... 

May  5 . 

May  6 . 

May  7 . 

May  18 . 

May  19 . 


25 

33 

34 

150 

220 

307 

343 


♦Exercising  discretion  given  by  the  Act  (page  1)  the  Committee  voted  to  withhold 
names  of  inmates  and  ex-inmates  (page  25). 


246253 


REPORT. 


Columbia,  S.  C.,  27  April,  1909. 

The  Commission  for  the  Investigation  of  the  State  Hospital  for 
the  Insane,  composed  of  the  following  members,  this  day  convened 
in  session  at  the  State  Hospital  for  the  Insane,  to-wit : 

Senators — Niels  Christensen,  Jr.,  Chairman,  P.  L.  Hardin, 
George  H.  Bates.  Members  of  the  House — J.  P.  Carey,  George  W. 
Dick,  Olin  Sawyer,  W.  C.  Harrison. 

The  Chairman  called  the  Commission  to  order. 

The  Chairman — The  Legislature  at  its  last  session  received  a 
communication  from  the  Board  of  Regents  and  the  Superintendent 
of  the  State  Hospital  for  the  Insane,  which  we  have  not  a  copy  of  at 
present,  but  we  will  procure  a  copy  and  put  it  in  the  record  at  this 
point. 

The  following  is  a  copy  of  the  communication  referred  to : 

“The  Board  of  Regents  and  the  Superintendent  of  the  State  Hos¬ 
pital  for  the  Insane  respectfully  urge  the  attention  of  your  honorable 
body  to  the  inadequacy  of  the  present  provision  for  and  accommo¬ 
dations  of  the  hospital  and  the  desirability  of  making  certain  changes 
affecting  its  welfare  and  management. 

“Among  these  changes  are  the  regulation  of  the  handling  of  cases 
of  chronic  inebriates  and  alleged  insane  criminals,  as  to  which  some 
misunderstanding  has  arisen  as  to  the  scope  and  proper  conduct  of 
the  work  of  the  institution,  the  better  classification  of  patients  and 
the  development  of  a  farm  colony  in  the  country,  besides  improve¬ 
ments  in  other  conditions  now  unsatisfactory. 

“We  accordingly  request  that  a  special  committee  be  appointed 
to  investigate  and  report  upon  the  condition  and  affairs  of  the  hospi¬ 
tal  and  its  management  in  order  that  your  honorable  body  may  be 
fully  informed  with  reference  thereto. 

“Respectfully, 

“W.  J.  Gooding, 

“J.  W.  Babcock.” 

The  Chairman — In  accordance  with  the  request  the  Legislature 
passed  an  Act,  which  had  best  go  in  the  record  at  this  point,  and 
unless  it  is  desired  we  will  not  read  it,  as  all  are  familiar  with  it. 

The  following  is  the  Act  referred  to,  page  403  of  the  Acts  of  1909, 
entitled  : 


246253 


6 


“An  Act  to  Provide  for  the  Investigation  of  the  State  Hospital 
for  the  Insane. 

“Section  i.  Be  it  enacted  by  the  General  Assembly  of  the  State 
of  South  Carolina,  That  a  Joint  Committee,  consisting  of  three 
members  of  the  Senate  and  four  members  of  the  House  of  Repre¬ 
sentatives,  be  appointed  by  the  presiding  officers  of  the  respective 
houses,  to  investigate  the  affairs  of  the  State  Hospital  for  the  Insane, 
and  that  such  Committee  make  a  report  and  such  recommendations 
as  they  may  deem  proper  to  the  General  Assembly  at  the  next 
session  thereof :  Provided,  That  the  Committee  shall  keep  a  correct 
record  of  its  acts  and  deliberations  and  the  testimony  taken  before  it. 

“Sec.  2.  That  the  said  Committee  shall  have  full  power  and 
authority  to  investigate  the  past  and  present  affairs  of  the  State 
Hospital  for  the  Insane. 

“Sec.  3.  That  said  Committee  be,  and  are  hereby,  authorized  and 
empowered  to  call  before  them,  by  summons  or  notice,  in  such  form 
as  the  Committee  may  adopt,  and  to  be  served  by  the  marshal  of  said 
Committee,  or  such  other  officer  of  the  State  as  may  be  by  the  Com¬ 
mittee  required,  such  person  or  persons  as  the  Committee  may  deem 
proper,  and  to  require  such  person  or  persons  to  answer  upon  oath 
any  and  all  questions  that  the  Committee  may  deem  relevant  and 
may  propound  to  him  or  them ;  and  upon  the  failure  or  refusal 
of  such  person  or  persons  to  obey  such  summons  or  notice,  or  to 
answer  such  question  or  questions,  such  person  or  persons  shall  be 
deemed  to  be  in  contempt  of  the  authority  of  said  Committee,  and 
may  be  imprisoned  upon  the  order  of  the  said  Committee  in  the 
common  jail,  to  be  there  held  until  he  or  they  shall  comply  with  the 
order  of  the  said  Committee. 

“Sec.  4.  That  for  the  purposes  of  the  investigation  herein  pro¬ 
vided  for,  the  said  Committee  are  hereby  authorized  and  empowered 
to  elect  a  marshal,  who,  upon  being  sworn,  shall  be  and  become  a 
peace  officer  of  the  State,  and  invested  with  all  the  power  of  sheriffs 
and  constables  in  the  services  of  any  and  all  process  issued  by  the 
Committee  aforesaid,  and  with  the  power  to  arrest  and  imprison, 
upon  the  order  of  said  Committee,  or  who  shall  be  guilty  of  any  dis¬ 
orderly  conduct  in  the  presence  of  said  Committee  during  any  session 
thereof,  or  who  shall  be  guilty  of  any  contempt  of  said  Committee. 

“Sec.  5.  That  the  said  Committee  be,  and  the  same  is  hereby, 
authorized  to  send  for  and  to  require  the  production  of  any  and  all 
books,  papers,  or  other  documents,  or  writings  which  may  be  deemed 
relevant  to  said  investigation,  and  to  require  said  person  or  persons 


7 


in  custody  or  possession  of  said  papers  to  produce  the  same  before 
the  said  Committee;  and  any  person  or  persons  who  shall  fail  or 
refuse  to  act  on  the  order  or  notice  of  said  Committee  to  produce 
said  books,  or  other  documents,  or  writings,  shall  be  deemed  guilty 
of  contempt  of  said  Committee,  and  be  punished  as  provided  in  Sec¬ 
tion  3. 

“Sec.  6.  Said  Committee  shall  have  power  to  administer  necessary 
oaths,  and  any  person,  who  shall,  after  being  sworn  before  said  Com¬ 
mittee,  swear  falsely,  shall  be  deemed  guilty  of  perjury,  and  upon 
conviction,  shall  be  punished  as  provided  by  law. 

“Sec.  7.  That  for  the  purpose  of  the  investigation  of  the  affairs 
of  the  State  Hospital  for  the  Insane,  as  herein  provided,  each  and 
every  member  of  said  Committee  be,  and  hereby  is,  authorized  and 
empowered  separately  and  individually,  to  exercise  the  power  and 
authority  herein  conferred  upon  the  whole  Committee. 

“Sec.  8.  That  said  Committee  is  hereby  authorized  and  empow¬ 
ered  to  exclude  any  person  or  persons  whomsoever  from  any  one  or 
all  of  its  meetings,  examinations,  or  deliberations,  and  may  keep 
secret  any  or  all  of  its  proceedings,  deliberations,  and  testimony 
taken  :  Provided ,  That  the  Committee  may  require  any  person  or 
persons  admitted  to  its  deliberations  or  hearings  to  take  oath  that  he 
will  keep  secret  all  that  may  be  said  or  done  in  his  presence  during 
said  meeting,  deliberation  or  examination.  Any  person  violating  the 
oath  herein  provided  for  shall  be  deemed  guilty  of  a  misdemeanor : 
Provided,  The  Committee  be,  and  are  hereby,  authorized  in  their 
discretion,  to  disclose  such  as  they  deem  proper,  and  the  public 
welfare  may  demand. 

“Sec.  9.  That  the  Board  of  Regents  and  the  Superintendent  of 
the  State  Hospital  for  the  Insane  shall  have  the  right  to  be  present 
in  person  and  to  be  represented  by  attorney  at  any  session  or  sessions 
at  which  testimony  is  taken  by  the  Committee :  Provided ,  That  the 
Board  of  Regents  and  the  Superintendent  and  their  counsel  shall  not 
divulge  anything  heard  by  them  in  said  investigation ;  and  in  case  of 
a  violation  of  this  Act,  said  Committee  shall  have  the  right  to  punish 
any  violators  as  for  contempt  of  court,  by  a  fine  of  not  less  than  five 
nor  more  than  fifty  dollars :  Provided,  further,  That  the  Committee 
may,  in  their  discretion,  remove  the  seal  of  secrecy  as  to  any  or  all 
of  said  officers. 

“Sec.  10.  That  said  Committee  is  hereby  authorized  and  empow¬ 
ered  to  employ  a  stenographer  or  stenographers,  and  any  other 


8 


person  or  persons  the  Committee  may  consider  necessary,  for  the 
purpose  of  carrying  out  the  provisions  of  this  Act. 

“Sec.  ii.  That  the  said  Committee  shall,  as  soon  as  practicable, 
organize  by  election  of  a  chairman  and  secretary  from  their  number ; 
that  the  sum  of  three  thousand  dollars,  if  so  much  be  necessary,  be 
and  the  same  is  hereby,  appropriated  to  defray  the  expenses  of  the  said 
Committee,  and  the  Treasurer  of  the  State  is  hereby  authorized  and 
required  to  pay  the  said  sum,  or  any  part  thereof,  upon  a  warrant 
or  warrants  drawn  by  the  secretary  of  said  Committee. 

“Sec.  12a.  No  one  shall  be  held  to  answer  to  any  criminal  charge 
or  indictment  by  reason  of  testimony  given  by  himself  or  herself 
as  provided  hereunder,  nor  shall  any  testimony  given  hereunder 
by  any  witness  be  used  in  any  subsequent  prosecution  against  said 
any  witness :  Provided,  however,  That  this  section  shall  not  be 
deemed  to  prevent  prosecution  for  perjury. 

“Sec.  12.  That  each  member  of  said  Committee  shall  receive  five 
dollars  per  day,  and  five  cents  per  mile  for  each  mile  traveled  while 
engaged  in  the  business  of  said  Committee ;  that  each  witness  sum¬ 
moned  to  appear  before  said  Committee  shall,  while  in  attendance 
thereon,  receive  the  sum  of  two  dollars  per  day,  besides  five  cents 
per  mile  for  each  mile  traveled  going  to  and  returning  from  the 
meeting  of  said  Committee.  This  investigation  shall  begin  not  later 
than  April  1,  1909. 

“Sec.  13.  This  Act  shall  take  effect  immediately  upon  its  approval 
by  the  Governor. 

“Approved  the  27th  of  February,  A.  D.  1909.” 

The  Chairman — Yesterday  at  a  meeting  of  the  Commission,  a 
resolution  was  passed,  which  is  as  follows : 

“Mr.  Carey  moved  that  tomorrow  the  Commission  take  such 
testimony  from  the  officers  of  the  State  Hospital  for  the  Insane  as 
does  not  bear  upon  any  of  the  charges  that  have  been  made  against 
the  said  institution.” 

The  Chairman — Gentlemen,  we  are  here  to  ask  the  Board  of 
Regents  and  the  Superintendent  to  give  us  the  reasons  which 
prompted  them  in  asking  for  the  investigation,  and  at  our  sugges¬ 
tion,  at  this  point,  we  want  to  go  over  the  situation  in  a  general  way, 
that  is,  the  situation  as  to  the  equipment  and  the  plant  which  you 
have  here,  the  organization  and  the  treatment  of  patients,  and  for 
the  present  we  will  not  consider  the  complaints  that  have  been  made, 
the  idea  being  to  give  a  general  idea  of  the  situation,  what  you  have 
to  work  with,  and  after  that  we  will  take  in  detail  the  complaints. 


9 


Mr.  Carey — Mr.  Chairman,  I  suggest  at  this  point  that  you  ought 
to  state  to  these  gentlemen  what  the  charges  are  so  as  to  give  them  a 
general  intimation  as  to  what  charges  have  been  made  against  the 
institution,  so  that  they  may  be  getting  themselves  in  shape  to  show 
their  side  of  it  when  those  charges  are  reached,  and  I  suggest  that 
the  Chairman  briefly  state  the  nature  of  those  and  the  action  of  the 
Commission  on  yesterday  as  to  the  taking  up  of  those  charges,  that 
is  to  say,  that  the  parties  making  the  charges  will  first  be  heard 
and  the  Commission  will  have  the  opportunity  to  examine  them,  and 
the  authorities  of  the  Asylum  will  then  have  an  opportunity  to  reply 
to  those  charges. 

I  would  prefer  that  method.  It  is  the  usual  one  in  taking  up 
charges  against  any  one. 

I  think  it  is  due  to  the  board  and  to  the  officers  that  they  should 
know  at  this  point  the  nature  of  those  charges,  so  that  they  can  be 
getting  their  side  of  the  case  in  shape. 

Dr.  Babcock — As  I  understand  it,  the  Board  of  Regents  and  the 
Superintendent  asked  for  this  investigation. 

We  had,  we  considered,  good  and  sufficient  reasons  for  the  investi¬ 
gation,  regardless  of  any  charges,  and  before  we  are  officially 
informed  of  any  charges,  we  would  request  the  privilege  of  stating 
seriatim  the  reasons  why  we  asked  for  this  investigation.  Subse¬ 
quently  we  will  be  glad  to  take  up  the  charges  and'  reply  to  them, 
but  unbiased  by  any  charges,  I  think  we  should  have  the  privilege 
of  stating  the  reasons  which  induced  the  Board  of  Regents  and  the 
Superintendent  to  ask  for  this  investigation. 

Mr.  Carey — We  have  those  reasons  in  writing,  or  do  you  prefer  to 
state  them? 

Dr.  Babcock — I  would  prefer  to  state  them. 

Mr.  Carey — I  move  that  we  hear  from  them. 

Carried. 

Mr.  Gooding — Dr.  Babcock,  who  is  familiar  with  all  the  questions  • 
that  have  come  up  in  the  past  and  who  has  everything  in  hand  will 
represent  the  Board  of  Regents  in  the  matter,  before  the  Chairman 
and  this  Committee.  He  has  familiarized  himself  with  all  the  facts, 
and  is  more  familiar  with  the  conditions  than  we  are  as  members  of 
the  board.  Dr.  Babcock  will  explain  the  situation. 

Dr.  Babcock — Mr.  Chairman,  I  desire  before  I  begin  any  remarks 
I  may  have  to  make  to  this  Commission  to  apologize  because  I  am 
somewhat  unprepared  to  go  seriatim  into  this  matter,  as  you  have 
kindly  given  me  the  privilege  to  do. 


IO 


First,  I  will  do  the  best  I  can  to  make  a  clear  statement  on  behalf 
of  the  Board  of  Regent  officers  here  as  to  the  real  situation  here. 

You  gentlemen  will  please  get  clearly  in  mind  that  the  State 
Hospital  for  the  Insane  of  South  Carolina  is  today  the  result  of  the 
honest  efforts  of  three  generations  'of  South  Carolinians. 

The  institution  was  started  in  a  small  way,  in  a  feeble  way,  and 
was  a  pioneer.  The  founders  of  the  institution,  the  two  men,  Farrer 
and  Crafts,  who  had  the  institution  incorporated  by  the  Legislature, 
did  not  live  to  see  the  result  of  their  labors.  One  died  in  1824,  the 
other  in  1826,  and  the  institution  was  opened  in  1828. 

Their  work  was  taken  up  by  a  Board  of  Regents  in  an  experi¬ 
mental  way,  and  for  nearly  ten  years  the  institution  was  an  experi¬ 
ment.  There  were  times  when  the  board  was  so  much  disheartened 
with  their  work  that  they  were  willing  to  give  it  up. 

It  was  carried  on  finally  by  Governor  Hamilton’s  giving  to  the 
board  all  that  remained  of  his  contingent  fund,  but  Dr.  Trezevant, 
who  was  with  it  from  the  beginning,  one  of  the  first  regents,  and  one 
of  our  best  physicians,  said  that  from  the  start  the  institution  was 
always  handicapped,  that  it  never  received  the  support  either  of  the 
public  or  of  the  General  Assembly,  that  although  it  started  out  as  a 
pioneer,  that  adjacent  States  soon  surpassed  it  in  many  points  of 
excellence. 

The  institution  was  started  on  a  four-acre  lot  here  in  the  northeast 
corner  of  Columbia,  and  to  that  small  nucleus  at  our  decennial  period 
additions  were  made  until  about  1848,  twenty  years  after  it  wTas 
opened,  it  had  outgrown  its  location,  and  the  question  then  came  up 
whether  this  Asylum  should  be  moved  into  the  country,  and  from 
1848  to  1856  that  matter  divided  the  physicians,  split  the  regents,  and 
the  Legislature  listened,  and  finally  in  1856  the  Legislature  ordered 
that  the  institution  should  be  stationary,  that  buildings  should  be 
erected  across  Pickens  street  to  the  east  of  the  original  building. 

That  step,  in  1856,  made  our  institution  a  civic  institution,  and 
Dr.  Trezevant  had  taken  the  side  that  it  was  better  to  sell  out  this 
plant  and  go  to  the  country  from  three  to  four  miles  out.  He  had 
several  locations  in  view,  but  he  was  defeated  in  his  project,  and  the 
institution  was  anchored  in  Columbia. 

These  two  wings,  these  two  buildings  here,  were  built  before  the 
war,  and  the  recent  extension  in  this  wing  was  built  in  Republican 
times. 

I  don’t  think  that  it  is  worth  while,  Mr.  Chairman,  to  go  into  the 
personnel  of  the  officials  through  these  various  periods,  but  briefly 


1 1 


the  most  important  regulation  that  was  effected  during  the  Republi¬ 
can  regime  was  the  establishment  in  1867  of  the  State  County 
System. 

Up  to  that  time  the  institution  had  pay  patients  and  pauper  patients. 
The  money  accruing  from  pay  patients  was  applied  to  the  pauper 
pati'ents,  and  what  was  over,  the  balance,  had  to  be  made  up  by  the 
counties,  but  that  system  was  never  saisfacory,  and  in  Republican 
times  State  care  was  inaugurated. 

Now,  in  the  history  of  Asylum  administration,  that  was  a  great 
advantage. 

The  State  of  New  York,  about  1865,  also  took  up  State  care,  and 
one  would  suppose  from  the  advertising  that  charity  administrators 
in  New  York  have  gotten  from  this,  that  this  State  got  the  State 
care  system  from  New  York,  and  that  that  was  the  first  State  that 
had  ever  inaugurated  it,  but  in  that  matter  South  Carolina  was 
pioneer. 

In  1878  buildings  were  started  on  this  system — in  1878,  1880, 
1882,  and  this  building  was  built  in  1885. 

During  that  time  the  Board  of  Regents  had  succeeded  in  procuring 
three  or  four  farms  lying  back  here.  Major  Gooding  was  then  a 
member  of  the  board.  They  got  the  Wigg  farm,  the  Black  farm,  the 
Parker  farm,  and  down  as  late  as  1896,  they  got  this  Wallace  prop¬ 
erty.  In  1903  they  secured  the  Jones  land,  in  1904  the  Seegers 
property,  and  in  1905  the  Weir  property. 

That  represents  the  slow  evolution  of  the  Hospital. 

Some  of  you  gentlemen  may  have  had  the  honor  of  being  members 
of  the  General  Assembly  in  1896,  when  the  Wallace  property  was 
purchased,  a  hundred  and  ten  acres  with  their  house  was  bought  for 
$27,000.00. 

That  cost  the  State  of  South  Carolina  four  thousand  dollars  a 
year  for  six  years,  the  balance  being  paid  by  a  private  fund  which 
had  been  raised  by  private  subscription  by  Mrs.  Dix,  a  friend  of 
the  insane  throughout  the  world,  but  the  cost  to  the  taxpayers  of 
South  Carolina  of  this  land  was  four  thousand  dollars  a  year  for 
six  years,  and  six  per  cent,  on  the  mortgage  which  was  carried. 

In  1868,  Dr.  Parker  applied  to  the  General  Assembly  to  erect  a 
brick  building  free  from  the  danger  of  fire  for  negro  men.  That 
bill  was  railroaded  by  the  Superintendent  and  the  Board  of 
Regents  for  twenty-nine  years.  That  pathetic  appeal  went  up  to 
your  predecessors  to  take  these  colored  men  out  of  wooden  shacks 
and  give  them  at  least  a  brick  building. 


12 


In  1897,  the  Legislature  appropriated  $7,000  to  begin  the  building. 
There  was  no  architect,  there  was  no  contractor,  because  it  was  the 
purpose  of  the  Board  of  Regents  to  make  every  cent  of  that  appro¬ 
priation  apply  to  the  long  desired  purpose.  The  building  got  in  the 
air  and  the  appropriation  was  exhausted.  Governor  Ellerbe  came 
to  the  relief  of  the  board,  and  said,  you  have  waited  twenty-nine 
years  for  this.  You  will  have  to  put  it  under  roof,  and  I  will  be 
responsible  with  you  to  the  General  Assembly. 

That  was  done.  When  the  General  Assembly  met  they  looked 
into  the  matter  and  appropriated  $13,000.00  towards  the  building. 
So  that  building  which  stands  out  there  today  cost  the  State  of 
South  Carolina  $21,000.00. 

With  the  gain  of  this  Wallace  property  the  institution  for  the 
first  time  reached  the  position  in  which  it  was  able  to  give  to  its 
patients  some  degree  of  privacy. 

Up  to  that  time  it  had  been  a  diversion  of  the  negroes  of  Columbia 
to  sit  and  gaze  at  insane  white  women.  That  disgrace  was  wiped 
out.  The  large  building  that  was  on  that  Wallace  property  was 
called  the  Dix  cottage  for  the  woman  who  had  raised  this  $3,500.00. 
which  we  had  always  considered  the  entering  wedge  bv  which  the 
regents  were  enabled  to  purchase  that  property. 

But  the  white  women  have  always  outnumbered  the  rest  of  the 
population,  and  in  1904  they  were  so  crowded  that  the  Board  of 
Regents  built  this  two-story  building  for  violent  white  women,  and 
after  that  was  finished,  in  1907  this  north  building  here  was  begun. 

In  1903  they  built  this  building  for  white  men. 

This  north  building  here  was  only  occupied  in  February  of  this 
year. 

It  may  be  a  little  tedious  to  listen  to  this  statement  of  bald  facts, 
gentlemen,  but  the  evolution  of  the  Asylum  has  been  very  slow. 

One  who  has  not  studied  into  its  history  is  rather  inclined  to 
criticise  adversely  many  things  that  we  have.  The  holding  of  this 
land  is  a  proposition,  the  holding  of  farming  lands  so  valuable 
almost  within  the  corporate  limits  of  Columbia  is  a  matter  for  com¬ 
mon  criticism,  and  propositions  have  been  made  at  various  times 
to  dispose  of  this  property.  Of  course,  that  is  within  the  power  of 
the  Legislature,  and  I  suppose  it  is  within  the  duty  of  this  Commis¬ 
sion  to  consider  that  question. 

I  only  want  to  ask  you  to  remember  that  this  property  has  been 
accumulated  only  with  the  very  greatest  effort  on  the  part  of  the 
Board  of  Regents  and  resident  officers,  and  I  pray  that  you  will  not 


!3 


commit  yourselves  to  the  policy  of  disposing  of  any  of  our  present 
holdings,  any  of  the  present  holdings  of  the  State  Hospital  for  the 
Insane  until  you  have  weighed  it  most  carefully. 

Such  lands  as  you  now  have  must  within  the  lifetime  of  the 
younger  members  of  your  Commission  be  absolutely  necessary  for 
some  of  the  dependent  classes  in  South  Carolina. 

I  say  that  after  long  study  and  deep  reflection,  and  if  there  was 
to  be  only  one  thing  that  I  might  make  an  appeal  to  you  for,  it 
would  be  to  handle  that  problem  of  the  selling  of  any  portion  of  the 
present  holdings  in  real  estate  of  this  institution  to  proceed  with  the 
greatest  caution,  because  your  successors  and  my  successors  will 
in  time  need  every  available  inch  of  it. 

These  remarks,  Mr.  Chairman,  lead  up  to  the  specific  purposes  for 
which  the  Board  of  Regents  and  the  Superintendent  asked  for 
this  investigation. 

When  we  first  asked  for  this  investigation  we  were  very  much 
in  hopes  that  the  investigation  might  be  held  during  the  session  of 
the  Legislature,  that  you  gentlemen  might  be  so  thoroughly  informed 
yourselves  of  the  needs  of  this  institution,  or  the  increasing  needs 
of  this  institution,  that  you  could  go  before  your  appropriation  com¬ 
mittees  and  procure  such  means  as  might  relieve  us  of  some  of  the 
pressure  in  some  of  the  several  departments  which  are  embraced 
under  the  heads  I  am  about  to  mention. 

Unfortunately,  such  an  investigation  was  hot  held,  and  so  we  are 
set  back  for  a  whole  year,  and  we  have  over  fifteen  hundred  patients 
crowding  into  a  space  which  ought  not  to  be  allowed  for  but  one 
thousand.  That  is,  we  have  fifty  per  cent,  more  than  we  are  able  to 
take  care  of,  than  a  good  hospital  administration  ought  to  allow.  We 
find  ourselves  today  in  such  a  position  that  in  my  humble  opinion 
it  is  the  religious  duty  of  our  Board  of  Regents  to  say  that  not 
another  negro  woman,  not  another  white  man,  nor  negro  man  shall 
be  admitted  to  the  State  Hospital  for  the  Insane  until  the  Legislature 
has  provided  for  their  proper  housing. 

That  is  the  condition  that  you  are  facing  today,  gentlemen,  that  is 
the  condition  that  we  all  ought  to  have  faced  during  the  session 
of  the  Legislature,  and  that  it  was  not  faced  is  not  the  fault  of  the 
Board  of  Regents  nor  of  the  Superintendent. 


I4 


On  the  first  day  of  January,  1908,  there  were  in  this  institution 


1 ,3  77  patients  : 

White  men .  319 

White  women .  473 

Colored  men .  292 

Colored  women .  293 

On  January  1,  1909,  there  were: 

White  men .  331 

White  women .  499 

Colored  men .  330 

Colored  women .  302 


Making  a  total  of . 1,462 

On  April  27,  1909,  there  were  : 

White  men .  354 

White  women .  506 

Colored  men .  335 

Colored  women . l .  317 


This  is,  on  the  first  of  January,  1908,  there  were  1,377  patients; 
on  the  first  of  January,  1909,  there  were  1,462  patients;  and  on 
April  27,  1909,  there  were  1,512  patients. 

I  beg  you  to  remember — 

Mr.  Carey — That  is. now? 

Dr.  Babcock — That  is  today,  sir. 

I  beg  you  to  remember  that  is  fifty  per  cent,  more  than  we  have 
proper  accommodations  for.  That  is  about  five  hundred  more  than 
we  have  proper  accommodations  for. 

Mr.  Hardin — Five  hundred? 

Dr.  Babcock — More  than  we  ought  to  be  called  upon  to  handle, 
and  that  no  other  State  in  the  Union  would  take. 

I  have  been  up  at  Staunton,  Virginia,  where  a  doctor  friend  of 
mine  had  a  wife  in  a  state  of  violent  mania.  He  appealed  to  Dr. 
Blackwood  and  begged  him  to  make  room  for  his  unfortunate  wife. 
He  replied  that  he  had  his  full  quota  and  could  not  receive  another 
woman.  He  said,  “I  cannot  receive  another  patient  until  a  vacancy 
occurs,  and  if  a  vacancy  occurs  in  the  next  week  or  the  next  month 
I  will  receive  her,”  and  he  said  that  and  he  refused  to  receive  her. 

Gentlemen,  this  institution  has  a  unique  record.  I  want  you  to 
get  that  into  your  heads.  This  institution  refuses  no  one.  In  the 
time  that  I  have  been  here,  seventeen  and  one-half  years,  not  five 


i5 


patients  that  have  been  brought  to  this  institution  have  been  turned 
away. 

I  had  five  patients  brought  in  here  one  afternoon,  when  Dr. 

- was  there.  He  said  that  of  the  five  patients  that  had  applied 

he  would  send  all  away  but  one,  and  that  he  would  receive  but 
that  one. 

Gentlemen,  I  have  told  some  of  you,  I  have  defined  this  institu¬ 
tion  to  some  of  you  in  bald  English,  the  State  Hospital  for  the 
Iusane  of  South  Carolina  is  a  dumping  ground  of  every  form  of 
humanity  that  is  undesirable  in  any  community.  We  receive  feeble, 
broken-down  old  men  and  old  women,  who  have  worn  out  their 
welcome  in  their  homes  for  no  other  reason  under  the  sun  than  that 
they  are  untidy,  and  in  South  Carolina  that  has  been  a  good  and 
sufficient  reason  why  they  should  be  sent  to  the  Asylum. 

Our  patients  are  not  picked.  We  take  them  all. 

Mr.  Bates — Is  that  left  to  your  discretion? 

Dr.  Babcock — It  is,  but  I  have  not  turned  away  three  patients 
since  I  have  been  here.  We  take  them  and  do  the  best  we  can,  if 
we  have  to  crowd  them  until  they  cut  one  another’s  throats. 

That  is  the  record  of  the  institution ;  but  instead  of  getting  any 
credit  for  what  it  has  done,  any  credit  for  carrying  this  burden, 
some  discriminating  man  says  the  Asylum  has  a  high  mortality. 
That  is  true,  gentlemen,  but  you  let  the  doctors  go  to  the  front 
gate  and  pick  out  such  patients  as  are  going  to  live  three  or  four 
years,  then  you  will  indeed  see  a  low  mortality.  I  have  had  them 
to  come  in  here  and  die  in  half  an  hour.  Dr.  Griffin  complained  of 
it,  that  they  would  come  in  here  and  die  in  twenty-four  hours.  They 
have  died  between  the  station  and  the  entrance  to  this  institution. 
The  statutes  will  have  to  take  care  of  this. 

With  the  means  at  our  hands,  with  the  means  provided  by  the 
Legislature,  we  have  done  the  best  we  could. 

I  am  not  speaking  for  myself.  I  am  speaking  as  much  for  my 
predecessors  as  I  am  for  my  associates  today. 

Mr.  Bates — Isn’t  there  another  class  that  ought  not  to  be  here — 
inebriates  ? 

Dr.  Babcock — Nearly  every  session  of  the  Legislature  some  mem¬ 
ber  has  come  to  me  and  said  the  State  is  imposed  upon  in  receiving 
drunkards.  The  asylum  is  no  place  for  them.  I  said,  “I  am  with 
you,  sir.”  He  says,  “I  will  introduce  a  bill  prohibiting  their  reception 
into  the  Asylum.”  I  said,  “Very  good,  sir.  That  will  be  very  satis¬ 
factory.” 


i6 


Mr.  Carey — Excuse  me,  one  minute.  It  seems  to  me  that  all  that 
the  doctor  is  saying  ought  to  go  into  this  record  as  testimony,  and 
that  is  what  we  will  have  to  ask. 

I  would  suggest  that  the  doctor  give  us  briefly  the  reasons  why 
they  asked  for  this  investigation,  and  that  we  defer  any  further 
testimony  in  order  to  save  double  printing.  We  are  limited  in  our 
appropriation. 

Dr.  Babcock — I  don’t  think  anything  has  gone  into  this  that  I  will 
not  be  glad  to  swear  to. 

Mr.  Carey — I  want  it  in  your  testimony,  every  word  that  you  are 
saying. 

Dr.  Babcock — If  it  will  make  testimony,  I  will  be  very  glad  to 
make  an  oath  to  it  after  I  am  through. 

Mr.  Carey — I  think  the  proper  way  to  bring  this  out  is  by  question 
and  answer,  and  we  could  make  up  our  report  better. 

The  Chairman — As  I  understand  Dr.  Babcock,  the  statement  here 
is  simply  a  statement  of  the  conditions  that  call  for  an  examination, 
but  you  claim  that  this  is  going  too  far  ? 

Mr.  Carey — I  think  the  statement  is  going  too  far.  The  motion 
was  that  we  examine  the  officers  upon  matters  not  involved  in  the 
charges,  and  while  I  don’t  mean  to  cut  the  doctor  off  at  all,  because 
this  is  very  interesting  to  me,  and  I  am  satisfied  it  is  to  the  whole 
Commission,  but  I  wanted  to  make  the  statement  that  it  would  be 
preferred  in  the  form  of  testimony,  and  if  the  doctor  will  be  a  little 
brief  on  the  reasons,  in  order  that  we  can  get  right  down  to  the 
testimony,  we  will  not  have  so  big  a  record. 

Dr.  Babcock — I  was  about  to  take  up  these  several  items  when  the 
doctor  asked  me  the  question. 

Dr.  Dick — Maybe  that  question  about  the  inebriates  was  one  of 
the  reasons  that  made  you  ask  for  this  thing? 

Dr.  Babcock — Possibly. 

Mr.  Hardin — I  recall  you  spoke  just  now  of  a  good  many  people 
being  sent  here. 

Mr.  Bates — I  understood  the  doctor  was  making  a  survey  of  the 
whole  proposition,  and  then  was  going  to  state  why  he  called  for 
the  investigation. 

The  Chairman — It  seems  that  the  doctor’s  suggestion  that  when 
he  finish  he  make  oath  to  it,  is  all  that  will  be  necessary. 

Mr.  Carey — I  don’t  regard  that  as  testimony. 

The  Chairman — It  is  not  at  present,  but  when  he  finishes  it  is 
suggested  that  he  make  an  oath  to  it. 


i7 


Mr.  Carey — I  think  this  ought  to  be  carried  out  as  nearly  as  pos¬ 
sible  as  a  legal  investigation.  That  was  my  understanding  last  night. 

I  am  perfectly  willing  to  hear  the  doctor  on  anything  he  wishes 
to  say,  but  the  Commission  very  well  knows  that  we  are  very  limited 
in  the  amount  of  the  appropriation,  and  that  everything  we  take 
is  expected  to  be  printed,  and  if  we  print  this  statement  we  certainly 
will  want  to  examine  the  doctor  afterwards  and  it  will  be  double 
printing.  That  was  my  reason  for  making  the  point. 

Now,  that  resolution  last  night,  and  our  interpretation  of  it,  simply 
calls  for  the  reasons  for  asking  for  the  investigation. 

The  Chairman — Doctor,  vour  statement  will  not  be  very  long,  I 
suppose  ? 

Dr.  Babcock — I  will  be  very  glad  to  take  up  these.  I  preferred  to 
offer  my  written  letter.  Pardon  me  for  not  going  faster. 

Mr.  Carey — I  didn’t  mean  to  cut  you  off.  I  stated  my  reasons. 

Dr.  Babcock — These  introductory  remarks  led  up  to  the 
several  reasons  for  which  the  Board  of  Regents  and  the  Superin¬ 
tendent  wished,  not  this  year  or  last  year,  but  for  many  years,  for 
a  little  more  active  co-operation  on  the  part  of  the  members  of  the 
General  Assembly  in  handling  the  several  difficult  problems  of  the 
State  Hospital  for  the  Insane. 

The  first  eight  of  these  reasons  were  stated  in  the  centennial  issue 
of  the  News  and  Courier  of  1903.  One  additional  one  was  added 
in  Watson’s  Handbook  of  South  Carolina,  the  edition  of  1907,  and 
were  appended  to  a  study  of  the  history  of  the  institution. 

The  following  are  the  reasons  given : 

First.  That  is  has  become  the  policy  of  the  State  to  maintain  in 
Columbia  a  large  central  colony  for  the  insane  of  both  races. 

Second.  That  “State  Care’’  is  a  better  system  than  was  afforded 
by  the  old  method  of  County  support. 

Third.  That  the  separate  or  cottage  plan  of  buildings  or  wards 
is  better  suited  in  our  climate  to  the  needs  of  the  insane  than  are 
large,  conglomerate  buildings. 

Fourth.  That  the  separation  from  the  insane  (properly  speaking), 
of  such  classes  as  the  inebriates,  idiots,  epileptics,  etc.,  who  are 
now  associated  with  them,  would  prove  advantageous  to  all. 

Fifth.  That  the  improvement  of  the  county  alms  houses  by  hav¬ 
ing  hospital  wards,  etc.,  would  relieve  this  institution  from  receiving 
so  many  helpless  dotards. 

Sixth.  The  establishment  of  a  farm  colony  for  epileptics,  a  school 


2— A. 


i8 


for  the  feeble-minded  and  a  hospital  for  inebriates,  should  form  part 
of  the  future  policy  of  the  State. 

Seventh.  That  the  erection  of  separate  wards  for  the  violent 
insane  is  desirable. 

Eighth.  That  the  establishment  of  a  farm  colony  for  the  chronic 
insane  is  an  important  problem  for  future  consideration. 

Ninth.  The  means  for  separating  the  tuberculous  from  the  non- 
tuberculous  is  at  the  present  time  a  question  of  vital  importance. 

Within  the  last  year  and  a  half  the  attention  of  the  officers  of  this 
institution  has  been  directed  to  the  prevalence  in  our  State  of  a  fatal 
form  of  disease  known  as  pellagra. 

This  disease  is  becoming  so  common  among  us  that  I  have  twenty- 
three  cases  today  among  the  negro  women,  and  there  are  three  cases 
among  the  white  men  in  the  institution. 

The  Board  of  Regents  has  done  all  in  its  power  t©  secure  th« 
co-operation  of  the  United  States'  government  in  investigating  this 
fatal  malady. 

Eleventh.  By  reason  of  the  overcrowding  to  which  I  have  called 
your  attention  we  are  today  forced  to  place  patients  in  cells,  and 
that,  briefly,  is  inhuman. 

Twelfth.  The  dietary  of  the  institution  has  not  been  satisfactory 
for  some  time,  due  to  the  fact  that  the  population  has  far  outgrown 
our  kitchen  and  dining  room  accommodations,  and  the  overcrowding 
is  the  fault  in  the  dining  rooms  and  kitchens  as  it  it  is  in  the  wards 
and  dormitories. 

The  regents  and  officers  here  have  felt  that  the  appropriations 
given  us  by  the  General  Assembly,  in  comparison  with  the 
appropriations  allowed  for  the  purpose  of  the  insane  in  adjacent 
States,  are  meagre. 

The  per  capita  cost  in  this  institution  last  year  was  $109.30,  and 
more  than  that  is  allowed  in  most  counties  of  the  State  for  the  diet¬ 
ing  of  prisoners. 

At  the  Morganton  Asylum  in  North  Carolina,  their  per  capita  is 
$155.00,  and  the  Raleigh  Asylum  is  $165.00.  Thus,  you  see,  they 
get  very  much  more  than  we  do  for  the  patients  entrusted  to  us. 

The  present  condition  of  the  laws  of  the  State  requires  a  revision, 
and  I  most  earnestly  hope  that  the  legal  members  of  your  Commis¬ 
sion  will  take  up  this  question. 

The  regents  have  done  the  best  they  could  with  the  money  to  pay 
the  employees  sufficient  for  their  services. 


i9 


Our  payroll  will  bear  witness  to  the  fact  that  the  pay  allowed  to 
nurses  is  meagre. 

The  medical  staff  is  too  small  for  the  number  of  patients.  Each 
assistant  physician  has  more  than  he  can  carry,  and  for  several 
years  the  duties  of  assistant  physician  for  one  of  the  departments 
has  devolved  upon  the  Superintendent,  interfering  very  seriously 
with  his  administrative  duties. 

The  medical  department,  because  of  a  lack  of  money,  has  fallen 
very  much  behind,  and  our  present  heating  plant  and  boilers  are  in 
an  unsatisfactory  condition. 

For  the  proper  handling  of  so  many  patients  this  institution  should 
be  provided  with  an  ice  plant. 

The  fire  protection  of  the  institution  has  been  very  greatly 
improved,  and  with  a  small  appropriation,  can  be  rendered  entirely 
adequate. 

The  present  water  supply  is  gotten  from  the  city. 

Last  summer  the  Board  of  Regents  abolished  entirely  the  use 
of  surface  wells  and  in  that  way  has  promoted  very  much  the  health 
of  the  institution. 

I  have  already  referred  to  the  criticism  about  the  use  of  the  valua¬ 
ble  lands  here  for  farming  purposes,  but  through  Mr.  Bunch’s  fore¬ 
sight  and  ability  a  sand  hill  farm  has  been  brought  to  a  high  degree 
of  efficiency,  and  we  are  enabled  to  maintain  the  stock  here  and  cattle 
in  a  satisfactory  way,  and  were  it  not  for  this  land  it  would  be 
impossible. 

The  plant  which  you  are  called  upon  to  investigate  consists  of  360 
acres  of  land,  upon  which  I  should  put  a  valuation  of  $400,000.00; 
and  the  buildings,  I  think,  roughly,  are  worth  $600,000.00.  So  that 
this  plant  represents  a  money  value  to  the  State  of  South  Carolina 
of  one  million  dollars  in  round  numbers. 

These  are  some  of  the  general  heads,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  the  board 
has  wished  me  to  call  your  attention  to,  and  to  invite  your  especial 
attention  to  those  headings  as  arising  from  suggestions  made  by 
myself. 

I  am  sorry  to  have  taken  up  so  much  of  your  time. 

Mr.  Carey— I  move  that  Dr.  Babcock  be  requested  to  furnish  to 
the  Chairman  of  this  Commission  a  statement  of  the  reasons  why 
the  institution  asked  for  this  investigation. 

Dr.  Babcock — I  have  twenty-one  reasons  here. 

Mr.  Carey — The  reasons  which  the  doctor  has  assigned  for 
asking  for  this  inquiry  I  move  that  the  doctor  be  requested  to  hand 


20 


to  our  Chairman  and  this  Commission,  so  that  it  may  go  into  the 
record,  and  so  that  the  Commission  may  know  exactly  what  they  are 
asking  us  to  go  into. 

Dr.  Dick — We  have  got  those  reasons. 

Mr.  Carey — We  have  got  them  in  a  long  statement.  My  object 
is  to  get  them  in  a  short  form  so  that  we  may  have  in  the  concrete 
the  points  that  they  want  us  to  go  into. 

Mr.  Carey — The  doctor  has  made  his  statement.  My  opinion  is 
that  when  we  make  this  report  to  the  Legislature,  if  we  simply  state 
that  Dr.  Babcock  requested  us  to  take  up  the  hearing  for  twenty- 
three  reasons,  that  would  be  insufficient.  This  is  all  we  need  and 
then  we  can  go  into  the  testimony.  I  would  like  to  have  it  in  brief 
form  so  that  the  Legislature  can  follow  the  matters  looked  into. 

Dr.  Dick — I  don’t  think  what  Dr.  Babcock  has  said  is  one  whit  too 
full  and  I  would  like  for  the  whole  thing  to  go  into  print. 

Mr.  Carey — I  don’t  object  to  that.  I  would  like  to  see  any  objec¬ 
tions  or  specifications  in  short  form. 

Mr.  Sawyer — Will  all  this  be  put  in  the  final  record? 

Mr.  Carey — That  is  for  us  to  determine  when  we  go  to  make  up 
the  record. 

The  Chairman — The  motion,  as  I  understand  it,  is  that  the  doctor 
be  requested  to  make  this  tomorrow. 

Mr.  Harrison — I  second  the  motion. 

Carried. 

The  Chairman — I  would  like  to  ask  whether  the  Chairman  or 
other  members  of  the  Board  of  Regents  would  like  to  say  anything 
in  a  general  way,  particularly  along  the  line  that  Dr.  Babcock  has 
been  following. 

Mr.  Gooding — I  don’t  know  that  the  individual  members  of  the 
board  have  anything  to  say  at  this  time. 

The  ground  has  been  covered  by  Dr.  Babcock  as  far  as  he  has 
gone,  and  it  will  only  be  taking  up  the  time  of  your  Commission, 
and  he  will  answer  for  the  Board  of  Regents. 

I  don’t  know  that  any  other  member  of  the  board  desires  to  make 
a  statement. 

Dr.  Ray — This  board  has  made  some  recommendations  to  the 
Legislature  and  they  have  taken  adverse  action  on  it,  and  we 
wish  they  were  more  familiar  with  the  situation.  I  wish  that  the 
entire  Legislature  could  go  through  this  institution  as  they  did  at 
the  Citadel  and  the  other  State  institutions. 


21 


I  want  the  Legislature  to  be  in  position  to  act  on  the  conditions 
here,  and  I  do  not  believe  they  are  now. 

For  instance,  the  last  appropriation  we  asked  for  was  that 
$3,5°o.0°,  I  believe.  Then  we  asked  for  a  farm  in  the  country  here 
to  put  the  tuberculosis  patients  in,  and  we  were  denied  that.  That 
is  one  reason  I  think  the  Legislature  is  not  familiar  with  the  situation 
out  here.  And  that  is  the  reason  I  wanted  this  investigation,  so 
that  they  could  form  a  distinct  idea,  and  know  of  the  conditions 
when  we  make  recommendations.  That  is  my  reason. 

Mr.  Carey — I  hope  I  will  not  be  considered  officious  in  this  matter, 
but  I  am  so  used  to  proceeding  in  the  court  house  by  rule,  that  I 
would  much  prefer  to  proceed  that  way  here.  We  are  very  much 
in  the  nature  of  a  court  here,  and  I  have  got  one  more  motion  to 
make,  and  then  I  don’t  propose  to  have  much  more  to  say,  because 
I  understand  this  meeting  to  be  in  the  nature  of  an  outline  of  what 
we  are  going  to  do  and  that  we  have  got  to  inquire  into. 

I  move  that  at  this  point  the  Chairman  appoint  a  committee  of  two 
to  furnish  Dr.  Babcock  and  to  each  member  of  the  Board  of  Regents 
a  statement  in  writing  of  the  charges  which  have  been  made  against 
them  without  explaining  the  nature  of  any  of  the  charges  now,  but 
that  they  be  handed  to  them.  This  committee  will  have  to  prepare 
them  so  that  they  will  be  in  position  to  know  the  nature  of  the 
charges  against  them,  and  that  the  thing  be  not  delayed  by  waiting  to 
read  them,  I  move  that  we  simply  hand  them  to  these  gentlemen. 

Carried. 

The  Chair  appointed  Mr.  Bates  and  Mr.  Carey  to  make  this  state¬ 
ment. 

The  Chairman — Is  it  your  purpose  to  go  further  into  this  matter 
this  morning?  You  have  covered  the  purpose  outlined  in  your  reso¬ 
lution  ? 

Mr.  Hardin — If  any  of  the  regents  have  anything  to  state  we 
would  be  glad  to  hear  from  them. 

The  Chairman — As  we  proceed  from  this  point  we  will  proceed 
as  outlined  yesterday,  and  I  would  suggest  that  we  have  an  execu¬ 
tive  session,  and  further  consider  our  times  of  meeting  and  place 
of  meeting,  and  the  work  from  this  point  on,  if  that  is  agreeable 
to  the  Committee. 

I  would  like  to  ask  Dr.  Babcock  if  there  are  any  reasons  why  it 
would  not  be  desirable  for  us  to  meet  here. 

Dr.  Babcock — None  at  all.  I  think  the  Board  of  Regents  of  the 
institution  would  be  glad  for  you  to  do  it. 


22 


The  Chairman — We  appreciate  the  courtesy. 

Dr.  Babcock — There  may  some  exigencies  arise  in  which  you  may 
be  asked  to  meet  in  the  amusement  hall  upstairs  temporarily  and 
then  come  back  here  to  this  room  later.  You  understand  the  reasons 
that  might  arise. 

The  Chairman — How  many  of  the  board  are  here? 

Dr.  Babcock — All  except  Capt.  Iredell  Jones,  of  Rock  Hill. 

Mr.  Glenn — I  wish  to  make  a  statement.  I  would  like  to  ask 
whether  it  will  be  necessary  for  the  board  to  remain  here.  I  live 
some  distance  from  here.  I  have  been  very  much  interested,  and 
as  an  individual  member  of  the  board  I  endorse  what  has  been  said 
by  Dr.  Babcock  and  Dr.  Ray. 

I  think  the  main  reason  though  for  the  regents  or  for  the  Superin¬ 
tendent  and  Chairman  of  the  Board  of  Regents  calling  for  this  meet¬ 
ing  was  because  of  certain  rumors,  that  was  the  only  purpose  of  the 
investigation.  We  would  not  have  asked  for  it  if  it  hadn’t  been  for 
these  rumors  that  were  brought  out  by  a  certain  individual  who  was 
once  an  inmate  here. 

Of  course,  the  Board  of  Regents  endorsed  the  action  of  our 
Chairman  and  the  Superintendent  in  asking  for  this  investiga¬ 
tion  because  of  these  rumors,  and  I  am  glad  as  an  individual  mem¬ 
ber  of  the  board  that  this  Commission  is  here  and  that  the  investiga¬ 
tion  is  being  held. 

The  reasons  that  Dr.  Babcock  gave,  while  we  didn’t  give  them  in 
as  short  a  form  as  Mr.  Carey  wished,  I  think  as  you  have  requested, 
he  will  write  out  these  reasons  and  hand  them  to  you  very  soon. 

Now,  what  I  want  to  know  is,  is  it  necessary  for  the  Board  of 
Regents  to  be  here  another  day.  If  it  is  not,  I  wish  to  go  home 
tomorrow  or  as  soon  as  I  can  get  off. 

The  Chairman — The  purpose  of  our  executive  session  now  is  to 
decide  as  to  our  further  proceedings,  and  we  will  let  you  know  in 
a  little  while. 

We  will  ask  Dr.  Babcock  to  furnish  us  with  each  one  of  these 
reasons  this  afternoon,  and  that  Mr.  Bates  and  Mr.  Carey  get  up  the 
charges  against  them  and  furnish  each  one  of  them  with  a  copy,  as 
soon  as  they  can. 

Mr.  Carey — I  move  that  the  charges  against  the  institution  be  first 
taken  up  in  the  order  of  proceedings  when  the  Committee  meets 
again. 

Carried. 


23 


Mr.  Hardin — I  move  that  a  list  of  the  witnesses  be  prepared  and 
handed  to  the  Board  of  Regents. 

The  Chairman — The  Committee  has  decided  to  furnish  you  with 
a  list  of  the  charges,  and,  as  you  understand,  this  investigation 
runs  along  two  parallel  lines,  there  are  the  reasons  you  stated  this 
morning  explaining  why  you  asked  for  an  investigation,  and  then 
there  are  some  complaints  that  have  been  made.  We  will  furnish 
you  with  a  statement  of  what  these  complaints  are.  We  will  try  to 
get  it  this  afternoon,  and  tomorrow  morning,  if  there  are  any  wit¬ 
nesses  here  that  made  these  complaints,  we  will  take  them  up,  and  as 
soon  as  we  get  their  names  we  will  furnish  you  with  a  copy  of  them. 

I  would  suggest  that  the  testimony  of  these  witnesses  in  a  general 
way  covers  the  whole  institution  and  management  and  we  will  sug¬ 
gest  that  the  regents  will  probably  want  to  be  here. 

If  there  is  any  further  information  we  can  give  the  regents  we 
will  be  very  glad  to  do  so. 

Mr.  Carey— My  reason  for  that  was  that  after  hearing  the  state¬ 
ment  from  you  all,  we  were  satisfied  that  the  matters  embraced  in 
the  charges  would  in  all  probability  be  such  that  we  would  save  time 
by  taking  up  the  charges  and  let  you  make  your  defense  covering 
the  whole  field ;  and  we  also  thought  that  while  the  charges  were 
being  made,  you  would  rather  hear  the  charges  before  entering  upon 
the  matter  of  improvements. 

I  am  sure  I  would,  and  I  think  the  Board  of  Regents  would  like 
to  see  the  same  course  obtain. 

Dr.  Ray — Will  we  be  permitted  to  be  represented  ? 

Mr.  Carey — By  attorneys? 

Dr.  Ray — Yes,  sir.  We  would  like  to  be  present  by  representation. 

Mr.  Harrison — I  don’t  think  Mr.  Ray  understands  you.  You 
thought  this  was  to  be  done  in  executive  session.  The  testimony 
will  be  taken  publicly.  The  public  will  be  here,  you  and  the  public. 

Mr.  Carey — I  thought  Dr.  Ray  wanted  to  know  whether  they 
would  be  entitled  to  counsel. 

Dr.  Ray — Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Carey — The  Act  provides  that  the  Board  of  Regents,  if  they 
desire,  may  be  entitled  to  counsel,  but  if  that  happens  the  other  side 
will  also  apply  for  counsel,  and  we  had  taken  the  precaution  to  select 
a  man  or  men  to  bring  out  the  testimony  ourselves,  but  if  you  all 
want  it  we  haven’t  the  slightest  objection. 

If  you  demand  counsel,  those  who  are  pushing  these  charges  will 


24 


also  demand  them,  and  our  idea  was  that  we  would  bring  out  the 
truth  for  ourselves  from  both  sides. 

Mr.  Sawyer — We  have  only  selected  one  of  our  number  to 
question  the  witnesses. 

Mr.  Carey — If  they  prefer  outside  counsel  the  other  side  will 
probably  ask  for  counsel. 

Mr.  Gooding — The  board  would  prefer  to  be  represented  by  coun¬ 
sel  as  this  is  a  court,  and  with  a  lawyer  we  could  carry  on  the  pro¬ 
ceedings  in  a  better  form. 

Mr.  Carey — They  have  that  right  undoubtedly  under  the  Act. 

The  Chairman — I  don’t  know  in  just  what  sense  you  mean  to  say 
this  is  a  court.  We  are  simply  a  legislative  committee  to  inquire  into 
the  situation  out  here.  We  are  hardly  a  court. 

The  Chairman — If  there  are  no  further  matters  to  come  up  we 
will  adjourn. 

Dr.  Babcock — In  a  private  way,  as  Superintendent  of  the  institu¬ 
tion,  I  would  like  to  say  to  the  Commission  that  the  general  moral 
discipline  of  the  Asylum  is  very  much  weakened  by  the  present 
condition,  and  whereas  I  do  not  wish  at  all  to  interfere  with  your 
proceedings  or  to  make  suggestions,  yet  for  the  good  of  the  patients 
the  sooner  we  can  get  through  with  this  inquiry,  this  waiting  for 
months  for  it  has  upset  the  patients  themselves,  has  upset  the 
employees,  has  made  it  very  difficult  for  us  to  handle  the  affairs 
here.  There  is  a  spirit  of  unrest  throughout  the  institution. 

If  any  of  you  have  ever  tried  to  administer  a  big  corporation 
you  can  have  some  idea  of  the  difficulties ;  the  discharging  of  an 
employee  or  anything  of  that  sort  now  is  fraught  with  all  sorts  of 
complications. 

So,  not  to  spare  me  or  to  spare  the  Board  of  Regents  or  to  spare 
anybody,  we  wish  the  whole  thing  through,  and  if  you  can  manage 
by  any  means  to  relieve  us  of  the  tension  under  which  we  have 
tried  to  live  for  the  past  four  months  here,  I  hope  you  will  get 
through  with  this  investigation  as  soon  as  you  can. 

Mr.  Bates — That  is  one  reason  why  it  may  not  be  advisable  for 
us  to  meet  here. 

Dr.  Babcock — There  is  just  one  little  point  which  I  thought  of 
as  a  matter  for  the  Board  of  Regents  to  decide  rather  than  your 
Committee,  and  it  is  to  what  extent  is  it  wise  for  us  to  allow  news¬ 
papers  to  be  circulated  on  the  wards  among  the  patients. 

We  have  a  particular  class  of  men  who  are  always  getting  into 


25 


excitement  and  the  circulation  of  all  these  papers  among  them 
stirs  them  up. 

The  point  I  raise  is  whether  the  Board  of  Regents  is  not  justified 
in  ordering  me  to  see  that  no  newspapers  are  circulated  among  the 
patients  now.  In  the  situation  we  are  now  in  it  upsets  them  entirely. 

Dr.  Sawyer — If  you  think  it  advisable  I  should  think  you  ought 
to  do  it.  Ordinarily  I  would  do  it,  but  this  concerns  the  patients. 

Mr.  Carey — As  far  as  I  am  concerned  I  don’t  think  they  ought 
to  see  them.  Of  course,  that  is  for  you  all. 

Do  you  think  our  meeting  here  would  tend  to  disturb  them  ? 

Dr.  Babcock — I  don’t  think  so.  I  think  it  is  much  better. 

If  you  want  an  officer,  an  employee  or  anybody,  you  can  get  them. 
I  have  to  make  my  rounds  and  the  doctors  have  to  do  so.  If  you 
go  to  the  State  House  we  will  be  embarrassed  here.  I  don’t  suppose 
the  Commission  has  passed  upon  it. 

The  Chairman — No,  sir. 

Dr.  Babcock — I  wanted  you  to  know  how  I  felt  about  the  matter. 
I  will  refer  it  to  the  Board  of  Regents,  and  will  let  them  pass  upon 
it.  I  didn’t  want  to  act  without  your  knowledge. 

The  Chairman — The  Commission  stands  adjourned  until  tomor¬ 
row  morning. 


Columbia,  S.  C.,  28  April,  1909. 

The  Commission  was  called  to  order  by  the  Chairman. 

Present :  The  members  of  the  Commission,  the  Superintendent 
and  the  Board  of  Regents. 

The  Chairman  proceeded  to  swear  in  Mr.  McGrady  as  Marshal 
of  the  Commission  and  Mr.  A.  D.  McFaddin  the  Stenographer 
of  the  Commission. 

The  Chairman — The  witnesses  ask  that  their  identity  be  kept 
from  the  public. 

Dr.  Sawyer — I  would  like  to  have  the  minutes  of  the  first  meeting 
read. 

The  minutes  were  read  by  the  Secretary. 

Mr.  Carey — That  matter  has  been  left  open  until  we  see  whether 
they  are  going  to  demand  counsel  in  this  investigation.  The  matter 
was  brought  up. 

The  Chairman — This  had  better  be  considered  in  executive 
session. 

The  Commission  thereupon  went  into  executive  session. 


26 


EXECUTIVE  SESSION. 

Mr.  Carey — We  decided  that  we  would  appoint  a  man  to  conduct 
the  examination  if  counsel  was  not  demanded,  and  for  that  reason 
there  has  been  no  report  of  it  at  all  in  the  minutes  until  we  see 
whether  they  are  going  to  demand  counsel.  If  they  have,  of  course, 
they  will  conduct  the  examination. 

When  those  gentlemen  come  in,  as  I  understand  the  matter,  it 
is  understood  that  if  they  do  not  demand  counsel  then  Mr.  Bates 
and  I  will  take  charge  and  put  the  questions  in  the  main  examina¬ 
tion,  with  the  right  to  any  member  of  the  Committee  to  ask  any 
question  he  pleases.  I  would  suggest  that  that  not  go  into  the  record 
until  it  is  ascertained  whether  it  will  be  necessary  or  not. 

There  was  one  other  thing  I  want  to  settle.  They  want  to  know 
whether  they  will  be  allowed  the  publication  of  the  charges  at  this 
time.  I  think  that  is  a  matter  we  ought  to  pass  upon  while  we  are 
in  executive  session. 

Mr.  Sawyer — Until  we  hear  from  the  rest  I  don’t  think  we  ought 
to  publish  them  yet.  This  has  been  the  first  time  I  have  seen  them. 
I  don’t  know  what  they  are.  I  don’t  know  who  is  making  them. 

Mr.  Carey — I  move  that  we  pass  over  the  question  of  publication 
of  these  charges  until  some  time  later  and  before  the  adjournment 
of  the  executive  session  today. 

Carried. 

Mr.  Hardin — I  want  to  know  the  views  of  the  Committee  with 
regard  to  employing  an  expert  to  audit  the  books  of  this  institution. 
I  don’t  know  whether  it  would  be  wise  or  not  to  do  it. 

Dr.  Sawyer — Let  us  come  back  to  the  question  of  withholding 
the  identity  of  the  witnesses  from  publication. 

Dr.  Dick — I  move  that  the  names  and  identity  of  the  witnesses 
be  withheld  from  the  public  prints. 

Dr.  Sawyer — I  move  that  this  matter  be  passed  over  for  the 
present. 

Dr.  Dick — I  move  that  the  Chairman  instruct  the  reporters  to 
withhold  the  names  of  all  the  witnesses  until  further  notice  and  then 
we  can  take  this  matter  up  afterwards. 

Dr.  Sawyer — I  move  that  we  withhold  the  charges  for  the  present 
from  newspaper  publication,  the  charges,  names  and  identity  of  the 
witnesses,  and  their  testimony. 

Mr.  Hardin — I  move  to  amend  so  that  we  will  publish  the  charges 
and  the  names  of  the  parties. 


27 


Mr.  Carey — I  move  that  the  sessions  be  made  public  and  the 
charges  published,  and  the  names  of  the  parties  making  them,  that 
the  witnesses  be  sworn  and  the  names  published. 

I  am  in  favor,  of  open  sessions. 

Dr.  Sawyer — I  second  Mr.  Hardin’s  motion. 

Mr.  Hardin — I  move  that  the  charges  and  those  making  the 
charges,  the-  names  of  the  witnesses  and  the  testimony  be  allowed 
to  be  published. 

Dr.  Sawyer — I  second  the  motion. 

Mr.  Bates — I  move  to  amend  so  as  to  prevent  the  publication  of 
the  names  and  identity  of  the  witnesses,  who  are  inmates  or  ex-in¬ 
mates.  Just  say,  a  witness,  a  former  inmate,  or  a  witness,  a  former 
employee,  or  a  witness  now  employed  in  the  institution  testified 
as  follows.  Or  insert  instead  of  that  the  relation  that  the  witness 
sustains  to  the  institution. 

On  the  motion  of  Mr.  Bates  the  vote  was  as  follows : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Harrison,  Dick,  Bates  and  Christensen. 

Nays — Messrs.  Carey,  Hardin  and  Sawyer. 

Carried. 

Mr.  Hardin— [  would  like  to  ask  the  Chairman  if  the  amendment 
has  been  adopted.  I  call  for  the  vote  on  my  motion.  It  has  not 
been  lost. 

Mr.  Carey — I  move  as  a  substitute  for  the  motion  of  Senator 
Hardin,  as  amended  by  the  amendment  of  Senator  Bates,  that  this 
Committee  do  not  allow  published  the  charges  against  the  institu¬ 
tion,  or  the  names  of  those  preferring  the  charges,  or  the  names  of 
the  witnesses  giving  evidence,  or  the  evidence  given  unless  herein 
permitted  by  the  action  of  this  Committee. 

Mr.  Sawyer — I  second  the  motion. 

Mr.  Carey — I  simply  make  this  motion.  I  am  willing  for  full 
publication,  or  I  am  willing  for  the  publication  of  nothing. 

Mr.  Carey  calls  for  the  ayes  and  nays. 

The  vote  was  as  follows : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Carey,  Hardin  and  Sawyer. 

Nays — Messrs.  Harrison,  Dick,  Bates  and  Christensen. 

On  the  original  vote,  as  amended,  the  vote  was  as  follows : 

Ayes — Mr.  Harrison,  Mr.  Dick,  Mr.  Bates  and  Mr.  Christensen. 

Nays — Mr.  Carey,  Mr.  Hardin  and  Mr.  Sawyer. 

Mr.  Harrison — I  move  that  the  Committee  extend  to  the  minority 
the  right  to  publish  the  vote  on  these  three  motions. 

Unanimously  carried. 

The  executive  session  thereupon  adjourned. 


28 


Columbia,  S.  C.,  28  April,  1909. 

The  Commission,  having  been  in  executive  session,  now  resumes 
the  open  session. 

Mr.  Carey — Under  the  action  of  the  Committee  yesterday,  direct¬ 
ing  Senator  Bates  and  myself  to  furnish  copies  of  the  charges  grow¬ 
ing  out  of  the  complaints,  I  ask  permission  of  the  Chairman  to  hand 
each  of  the  gentlemen  a  copy. 

The  Chairman — Certainly. 

Mr.  Carey  thereupon  presented  a  copy  to  each  of  the  members  of 
the  Board  of  Regents  and  to  the  Superintendent. 

Mr.  Carey — There  is  one  matter  that  I  think  ought  to  be  stated 
and  I  feel  we  should  state  for  Senator  Bates  and  myself,  because  of 
ctie  peculiar  position  we  occupy  in  this  investigation,  and  I  ask 
permission  of  the  Chair  to  state  it  now. 

The  Chairman — Certainly. 

Mr.  Carey — It  is  this.  This  Committee  has  requested  us  to  take 
charge  of  the  legal  phases  of  this  matter  in  so  far  as  it  tends  to 
expedite  the  matter  and  dispose  of  the  hearing,  probably  from  the 
fact  that  we  belong  to  the  legal  profession,  but  we  both  want  to 
state  right  here  that  as  we  occupy  the  position  of  judges  in  this 
matter  we  want  it  to  be  understood  especially  by  the  Committee,  by 
the  regents,  or  anybody  else  embraced  in  those  charges,  that  we  have 
no  feeling  in  the  matter  whatever.  We  simply  propose  to  act  with 
a  view  of  bringing  out  the  truth,  and  we  will  be  glad  to  bring  out 
anything  that  makes  for  any  of  the  gentlemen  as  well  as  makes 
against  them. 

We  don’t  want  you  to  look  upon  us  in  the  way  of  prosecuting 
attorneys,  but  simply  as  in  the  aid  of  the  Committee,  in  bringing 
out  any  matter. 

Any  member  of  the  board  or  any  member  of  the  Committee,  or  the 
Superintendent,  has  the  right  to  ask  any  question,  or  we  will  gladly 
ask  any  question  they  want,  because  we  realize  the  fact  that  we 
have  to  vote  on  these  matters  before  it  ends,  and  we  propose  to 
accommodate  ourselves  entirely  to  this  position  notwithstanding 
the  fact  that  we  appear  as  conducting  the  investigation. 

I  simply  wanted  to  make  that  statement,  Mr,  Chairman. 

Mr.  Gooding — Is  it  the  aim  of  fhe  board  to  go  into  the  examina¬ 
tion  of  witnesses  at  this  stage  of  the  proceeding? 

Dr.  Babcock — I  desire  to  offer  the  following  paper  on  behalf  of 
the  regents. 


29 


We  have  received  a  copy  of  the  charges.  We  think  it  will  be  in 
the  interest  of  fairness  to  give  us  time  to  consider  them. 

We  further  insist  upon  the  names  of  all  the  witnesses  that  have 
been  subpoenaed,  and  of  all  parties  who  are  bringing  charges.  I 
received  a  copy  of  the  charges  last  night. 

The  assistant  has  just  received  his  and  the  other  members  of 
the  board. 

We  are  not  ready,  Mr.  Chairman,  to  go  into  this  matter  in  as 
intelligent  a  way  as  we  desire  to  do  upon  this  short  notice,  and  we 
would  respectfully  ask  that  you  allow  us  sufficient  time  to 
familiarize  ourselves  with  the  charges  that  have  been  preferred. 

Mr.  Carey — Mr.  Chairman,  I  haven’t  got  the  slighest  desire  in  this 
case  to  rush  the  gentlemen  in  until  they  are  ready.  I  am  sure  the 
other  gentlemen  feel  the  same  way  about  it. 

I  made  that  motion  yesterday  to  get  up  these  specifications  because 
it  appeared  that  these  gentlemen  had  waived  their  right,  under  the 
Act  of  the  Legislature  in  this  matter,  to  have  counsel  of  their  own. 

I  had  supposed  that  they  might  have  counsel  here  who  would  ask 
for  the  very  thing  that  has  been  asked  for.  They,  not  having  done 
so,  and  the  Committee  having  asked  Senator  Bates  and  myself  to 
inform  them  of  the  nature  of  the  charges,  we  have  done  so  as  best 
we  could,  and  they  are  now  in  their  hands. 

Dr.  Babcock — We  think  it  will  be  in  the  interest  of  fairness  to 
have  time  to  consider  them. 

We  further  insist  upon  the  names  of  all  the  witnesses  who  have 
been  subpoenaed,  and  of  all  the  parties  who  are  bringing  the  charges. 

Mr.  Carey — As  to  that  I  desire  simply  to  state  this. 

We  did  not  undertake  to  draw  formal  indictments  in  this  matter 
for  two  or  three  reasons.  In  the  first  place,  it  would  cover  half  a 
volume  to  put  down  all  the  names  and  charges  that  have  been 
handed  in.  We,  therefore,  selected  out  of  those  the  pertinent 
charges,  and  we  propose  each  day  to  subpoena  a  certain  number  of 
witnesses,  and  let  the  institution  or  those  managing  its  affairs  then 
know  who  the  witnesses  are. 

We  don’t  know  how  many  of  these  witnesses  we  are  going  to 
get,  nor  how  many  we  will  decide  to  examine.  We  are  limited  in 
our  appropriation  to  $3,000.00. 

Our  idea  was  each  day  those  charged  with  the  matter  would 
notify  them  of  the  names  of  the  witnesses  against  them,  and  of 
the  matters  they  would  testify  to,  and  then  if  they  wanted  further 
time  to  look  into  the  matters  to  be  testified  to  by  the  witnesses  it 


30 


would  be  granted  by  the  Committee,  and  in  that  way  it  would 
amount  to  giving  the  gentlemen  what  they  now  ask  for. 

If  we  give  the  names  now,  we  will  give  them  the  names  of  those 
who  will  not  be  used,  and  that  is  the  reason  why  I  think  it  would 
be  very  difficult,  at  the  outset  of  this  matter,  to  furnish  them  with 
the  names  of  the  witnesses. 

That  is  in  accordance  with  the  practice  in  the  court  house. 
Witnesses  are  brought  forward  and  put  on  the  stand  and  the 
parties  are  then  advised  as  to  who  they  are,  and  there  is  only  one 
class  of  cases  in  which  the  witnesses  are  furnished  that  I  know  of, 
and  that  is  murder  cases. 

As  the  witnesses  are  summoned  and  before  they  are  examined 
we  have  not  the  slightest  objection  to  handing  to  the  gentlemen 
the  names  of  the  witnesses  who  will  be  examined  on  that  day,  but 
to  furnish  them  now  with  all  the  witnesses  who  will  be  used  during 
the  investigation  or  who  will  be  subpoenaed  during  the  investigation 
would  be  impossible. 

I  have  no  hesitation  in  saying  that  there  are  only  three  witnesses 
here  today  whom  we  expect  to  examine,  and  those  are  *  *  *. 

We  haven’t  the  slightest  objection  to  stating  to  you  in  advance 
the  names  of  the  witnesses  that  will  be  examined,  but  it  is  utterly 
impossible  to  give  now  the  names  of  those  who  will  be  examined, 
because  we  don’t  know. 

We  haven’t  gotten  together  the  other  witnesses. 

So  far  as  I  am  concerned,  if  these  gentlemen  want  time  to  con¬ 
sider  these,  time  to  go  over  these  things  with  counsel  or  otherwise, 
I  am  perfectly  willing  to  give  them  all  the  time  they  wish.  I  note 
the  objection  that  they  are  not  now  ready. 

Mr.  Gooding — We  will  not  ask  for  a  longer  time  than  ten  days. 

Dr.  Babcock — As  far  as  I  am  concerned  I  would  like  to  get  into 
it  and  get  through  with  it.  That  is  my  position.  If  the  Board  of 
Regents  want  to  adjourn  until  a  later  day  it  is  all  right.  I  have  just 
got  the  charges,  but  as  far  as  I  am  concerned  I  am  ready  to  go  on. 

The  Chairman — Your  request  is  that  we  adjourn  to  the  4th  of 
May? 

Mr.  Gooding — We  will  then  be  ready  to  answer  the  charges 
preferred,  furnished  yesterday  by  the  Committee. 

Mr.  Carey — Before  making  any  motion  to  that  effect  I  would  like 
to  know  what  the  gentlemen  do  want.  It  is  not  the  business  of  the 
Committee  to  require  you  to  prove  a  negative  by  requiring  you  to 
produce  evidence  in  advance  of  the  charge. 


3i 


The  resolution  already  adopted  is  that  the  testimony  against 
you  will  be  first  introduced,  and  then  if  you  gentlemen  want  time 
to  get  ready  to  reply  to  it,  the  Committee  will  take  pleasure  in 
giving  it  to  you. 

The  only  question  is  whether  you  want  time  to  consider  these 
matters  before  the  testimony  offered  by  those  preferring  the  charges 
is  introduced. 

Mr.  Gooding — I  would  like  to  ask  for  information. 

The  Chairman — If  they  want  it  we  will  be  glad  to  give  it. 

Mr.  Gooding — Will  we  have  an  opportunity  to  cross-examine  the 
witnesses  at  the  first  examination  ? 

The  Chairman — Certainly  you  will,  now  or  later. 

Mr.  Gooding — That  is  all  we  ask. 

Mr.  Carey — You  have  the  right  to  bring  an  attorney. 

Mr.  Bates — We  will  ask  any  questions  you  suggest,  that  is,  if 
you  decide  not  to  get  an  attorney  and  want  the  Committee  to  bring 
out  the  testimony.  If  you  want  time  we  are  willing  to  give  it. 

Speaking  for  the  board,  do  you  want  that  time  ? 

Mr.  Gooding — Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Carey — I  move  that  the  Committee  grant  the  time  asked  for 
by  the  board,  and  that  this  Committee  meet  here  in  this  place  on 
May  4,  at  4  o’clock  P.  M.,  for  the  purpose  of  taking  testimony. 

Mr.  Sawyer — I  second  the  motion. 

Mr.  Carey — My  motion  is  that  when  the  Committee  adjourn  it 
adjourn  to  meet  on  the  4th  of  May. 

Carried. 

Mr.  Carey — I  think  we  ought  to  inform  the  gentlemen  that  up 
to  this  point  there  have  been  only  three  witnesses  subpoenaed,  and 
hereafter  we  will  give  you  due  notice  when  they  are  subpoenaed.  I 
make  a  motion  to  that  effect. 

Mr.  Ray — Can  you  give  the  names  of  the  parties  who  preferred 
the  charges? 

Mr.  Carey — I  will  come  to  that  in  a  minute.  I  don’t  know 
whether  I  know  or  not. 

I  move,  also,  that  as  the  witnesses  who  testify  as  to  charges 
against  the  management  of  the  institution  are  subpoenaed  their 
names  be  furnished  to  the  Chairman  of  the  Board  of  Regents. 

That  covers  all  the  demands  except  as  to  the  parties  who  are 
preferring  the  charges. 

Mr.  Carey — So  far  as  that  point  is  concerned,  I  don’t  know 
whether  this  Committee  is  in  position  to  pass  upon  that  question, 


32 


without  knowing  who  the  parties  are.  So  far  as  I  am  concerned. 
I  don’t  know  who  they  are. 

We  have  before  us,  Mr.  Bates  and  I,  from  local  men  left  with 
this  Committee,  the  names  of  witnesses  who  would  testify  to  certain 
matters.  It  does  not  appear  that  anybody  is  prosecuting  the  matter. 

The  matter  came  up  by  a  memorial  being  sent  to  the  Legislature, 
which  was  afterwards  withdrawn,  and  the  institution  itself,  through 
Dr.  Babcock,  as  I  understand  it,  asked  for  it. 

The  Chairman — And  the  Chairman  of  the  Board  of  Regents. 

Mr.  Carey — And  it  was  passed  by  the  Legislature  on  your  motion. 

Dr.  Ray — It  would  not  have  been  had  if  we  had  not  asked  for  it  ? 

Mr.  Carey — I  don’t  know  whether  you  would  have  asked  or  not. 
So  far  as  I  am  personally  concerned,  and  I  think  I  voice  the  senti¬ 
ment  of  the  Committee,  I  have  no  reason  for  not  stating  who  signed 
that  memorial  to  the  Legislature. 

Dr.  Ray — I  think  we  know  who  signed  the  memorial. 

Dr.  Babcock — We  would  like  to  know  officially. 

Mr.  Carey — I  am  not  making  statements  unless  they  are  author¬ 
ized  by  the  Committee. 

The  Chairman — I  would  like  to  say  that  the  memorial  and  the 
affidavits  were  put  into  my  hands,  and  they  were  not  offered  to  the 
Legislature  because  the  institution  asked  for  the  investigation. 

Dr.  Ray — The  institution,  yes,  sir,  asked  for  the  investigation. 
There  was  an  accumulation  of  evidence  by  some  members  of  the 
General  Assembly  looking  towards  an  investigation,  and  we  had 
nothing  to  fear,  and  we  then  asked  for  an  investigation. 

Had  it  not  been  for  the  memorial  and  for  the  act  of  some  members 
of  the  General  Assembly  in  accumulating  testimony  for  the  inves¬ 
tigation,  I  don't  think  the  board  would  have  asked  for  it. 

Mr.  Carey — I  don’t  think  the  members  had  much  to  do  with  it 
until  it  was  asked  for. 

Dr.  Ray — Some  did,  sir.  I  don’t  accuse  anybody,  but  we  heard  it. 

Mr.  Carey — I  think  the  Committee  has  shown  its  disposition  to 
be  fair. 

Dr.  Ray — Certainly.  I  don’t  deny  that  at  all. 

Mr.  Carey — I  am  drawing  my  motion  to  grant  everything  that 
we  can  grant,  and  I  will  further  move,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  the 
names  of  the  persons  signing  the  memorial  to  the  Legislature  be 
also  furnished  to  those  gentlemen,  and  a  copy  thereof. 

That  gives  you  all  the  requests. 

Dr.  Sawyer — I  am  in  favor  of  giving  the  names  of  everybody. 


3d 

The  Chairman — I  would  like  to  say  that  the  memorial  was  put 
into  my  hands,  and  was  withdrawn,  and  was  never  put  before  the 
Legislature,  and  I  handed  it  to  the  Committee. 

It  has  not  been  offered  in  evidence,  it  is  not  a  matter  of  record, 
and  there  is  no  one  making  charges.  That  is  my  understanding 
of  the  situation. 

Mr.  Carey — My  first  motion  was  to  give  the  time  asked  for. 

My  second  motion  was  that  as  the  witnesses  were  subpoenaed 
that  the  names  of  the  witnesses  be  given  to  the  Chairman  of  the 
board  and  Dr.  Babcock. 

My  third  motion  was  that  a  copy  of  the  memorial  to  the  Legisla¬ 
ture,  asking  for  this  investigation  be  given  to  the  same  gentlemen. 
Of  course,  a  copy  carries  the  name  with  it. 

The  names  of  everybody  else  are  given  as  witnesses.  The 
memorial  sets  forth  the  whole  thing. 

The  Chairman — I  would  like  to  say,  as  the  member  who  intro¬ 
duced  the  resolution  in  the  Senate,  that  I  would  not  consider  Mr. 
Gibbes  as  the  maker  of  the  charges. 

He  was  not  the  one  who  brought  the  matter  to  my  observation. 

Mr.  Sawyer — I  second  the  motion.  I  think  it  has  not  been  put 
yet,  about  the  witnesses. 

Carried  unanimously. 

Mr.  Gooding — The  witnesses  as  subpoenaed? 

Mr.  Carey — Yes;  because  we  don’t  know  who  we  are  going  to 
subpoena.  They  have  the  right  to  cross-examine  them  on  the  stand, 
and  they  have  all  the  right  they  want  before  they  hear  them. 

I  don’t  see  how  we  can  offer  more  than  that.  I  have  told  them 
whom  we  had  subpoenaed  for  today.  As  soon  as  we  determine 
which  witnesses  will  be  brought  here,  we  will  furnish  their  names. 

The  motion  was  carried. 

The  names  of  the  witnesses  now  subpoenaed  are : 


Mr.  Bates — I  move  that  we  adjourn. 

The  Committee  thereupon  adjourned  until  4  May,  1909,  at  4 
o’clock  P.  M. 


Columbia,  S.  C.,  4  May,  1909. 

Pursuant  to  adjournment  the  Committee  met  today  at  the  Asylum 
at  4  o’clock  P.  M. 


3— A. 


34 


Present :  The  members  of  the  Committee  and  the  Board  of 
Regents  and  the  Superintendent. 

The  Chairman  called  the  Commission  to  order. 

Mr.  Carey — I  move  that  the  Committee  incur  no  further  expense 
until  we  get  through  taking  the  testimony  as  to  the  charges  pre¬ 
ferred  against  the  institution. 

Mr.  Hardin — I  second  the  motion. 

Mr.  Carey — Incur  no  further  expense — incident  to  the  taking  of 
the  testimony — that  includes  the  witnesses,  of  course. 

Unanimously  carried. 

Mr.  Bates — I  move  that  we  adjourn  until  io  o’clock  tomorrow. 

Unanimously  carried. 

The  Committee  thereupon  adjourned  until  io  o’clock  A.  M.,  5 
May,  1909. 


Columbia,  S.  C.,  5  May,  1909. 

Pursuant  to  adjournment  the  Committee  met  today  at  10  o’clock 
in  the  forenoon. 

Present :  The  members  of  the  Commission  and  the  Board  of 
Regents,  except  Messrs.  Dick  and  Sawyer. 

The  Chairman  called  the  Commission  to  order. 

Mr.  Carey — Do  you  gentlemen  want  to  file  any  reply  to  the 
charges  ? 

Dr.  Babcock — Just  go  into  them. 

Before  you  begin  the  hearing  I  should  like  to  make  a  statement. 

The  Board  of  Regents  and  the  resident  officers  recognize  that  it 
is  their  duty  as  well  as  their  pleasure  to  have  everything  about  the 
institution  wide  open  to  you,  and  I  hope  that  you  feel  in  your  inves¬ 
tigation  so  far  that  no  obstacle  has  been  put  in  your  way  by  any 
of  us. 

Since  it  falls  to  my  lot  to  represent  the  Board  of  Regents  and 
the  resident  officers.  I  wish  to  call  your  attention,  at  the  beginning 
of  this  inquiry,  to  the  character  of  some  of  the  evidence  which  will 
be  brought  before  you. 

A  former  patient  must  necessarily  give  prejudiced  testimony  and 
we  feel  that  you  will  recognize  that.  A  discharged  attendant,  a 
discharged  employee,  or  an  employee  who  has  been  ordered  to  per¬ 
form  certain  duties  and  has  refused  is  necessarily  a  prejudiced 
witness. 

Of  course,  these  are  mv  opinions  and  you  take  them  for  what  they 


35 


are  worth,  but  I  am  writing  this  morning  a  communication  which 
I  will  ask  the  privilege  of  having  made  a  part  of  your  record. 

[Dr.  Babcock  reads  a  letter  from  Dr.  Wines.] 

Dr.  Babcock — As  I  say,  the  regents  and  the  resident  officers  wish 
to  have  this  letter  put  in  since  Mr.  Wines  is  an  expert  of  your  Com¬ 
mission,  and  we  wish  to  have  this  letter  incorporated  in  your 
proceedings. 

There  are  only  two  points  here  that  I  should  like  to  dwell  upon.  In 
the  first  place,  the  course  adopted  of  bringing  discharged  employees 
and  former  patients,  for  that  is  what  it  means,  is  not  in  accordance 
with  the  wishes  of  the  regents ;  and  in  the  second  place  the  regents 
and  the  resident  officers  are  not  taking  any  steps  from  policy. 

Mr.  Carey — I  do  not  object  to  the  letter  being  filed,  but  my 
position  was  that  we  are  to  take  sworn  testimony  until  that  is  closed. 

Do  I  understand  that  is  what  the  doctor  wants  ? 

The  Chairman — The  proposition  is  before  the  Committee. 

Mr.  Carey — It  seems  to  me  that  it  should  be  withheld  until  we  get 
through  with  the  witnesses. 

I  just  make  that  statement,  as  we  have  several  witnesses  that  live 
out  of  town,  and  I  want  to  insist  that  we  examine  them  and  take 
up  these  matters  after  the  witnesses  are  gone. 

Mr.  Hardin — I  take  it  the  Committee  has  not  decided  whether 
Mr.  Wines  would  be  here  or  not.  The  Committee  has  not  yet 
decided. 

Mr.  Carey — And  it  has  already  taken  action  that  the  first  thing 
will  be  that  we  take  the  testimony,  and  we  can  take  that  up  in 
executive  session. 


Mr.  - ,  sworn  as  a  witness,  testifies  as  follows : 

By  Mr.  Carey : 

Q.  Where  do  you  reside?  A.  Charleston. 

Q.  What  is  your  age  now?  A.  Within  a  few  months  of  33, 
nearly  33. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  an  inmate  of  this  institution?  A.  On 
twoi  occasions. 

Q.  When  did  you  come  here  ?  A.  The  first  time  was,  I  think 
it  was  a  Fair  Week,  about  Fair  Week  in  1900.  The  exact  date  I  do 
not  recollect. 

Q.  Did  you  come  here  from  Charleston  County?  A.  I  was  a 


36 


patient  from  there,  but  I  came  down  from  Philadelphia  where  I 
was  undergoing  treatment  in  a  sanitarium. 

Q.  Were  you  committed,  or  come  of  your  own  accord?  A.  Com¬ 
mitted. 

Q.  From  Charleston  County?  A.  Yes,  sir,  according  to  rtiy 
knowledge  of  that.  It  was  all  done  by  my  relatives. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  stay  here?  A.  At  that  time,  a  year  and  a 
month,  over  a  year. 

Q.  Were  you  in  a  pretty  bad  condition  when  you  came  here? 
A.  At  first ;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  committed  as  insane?  A.  That  is  my  understand¬ 
ing  of  it. 

Q.  What  portion  of  the  building  did  you  occupy?  A.  Will  you 
let  me  put  this  in,  that  I  have  never  seen  the  commitment  papers 
either  time. 

Q.  I  am  just  asking  for  your  understanding  of  how  you  got  here. 
What  part  of  the  building  were  you  put  in?  A.  The  first  time? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  I  was  on  the  second  ward.  I  was  afterwards  moved 
to  the  fifth  ward,  and  from  that  to  the  third,  and  then  down  again 
to  the  second. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  stay  here  the  first  time?  A.  Something 
over  a  year,  a  little  less  than  a  month  more  than  a  year. 

Q.  That  was  the  first  time?  A.  That  was  the  first  time. 

Q.  How  did  you  get  out?  Were  you  discharged?  A.  Well,  sir, 
I  was  dismissed.  After  I  got  out,  after  the  board  meeting,  but  I 
don’t  know  the  circumstances,  but  I  know  I  went  down  and  thanked 
two  cousins  for  signing  papers  for  me. 

Q.  To  get  you  out?  A.  To  get  me  out. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  stay  out  after  you  were  released  the  first 
time?  A.  Five  years. 

Q.  Five?  A.  Five  years. 

Q.  And  you  came  back  the  second  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Committed  as  you  were  before?  A.  The  circumstances  were 
these :  I  was  at  that  time  at  Clifton  Springs,  New  York.  I  was 
at  Clifton  Springs  Sanitarium,  a  big  hotel-like  sanitarium,  and  I 
realized  that  I  was  all  in,  and  I  wired  for  my  brother  to  come  up 
and  commit  me  here.  I  told  him  that  was  the  only  thing  to  do, 
which  he  did. 

Q.  And  you  were  received  a  second  time?  A.  Second  occasion. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  stay  then?  A.  Two  years  almost,  I  think. 


37 


Q.  When  were  you  released  finally?  A.  27th  October,  I  think,  of 
last  year,  1908. 

0.  While  you  were  in  here,  Mr.  - ,  did  you  see  much  of 

the  other  patients  in  the  institution?  A.  Of  course,  a  good  deal. 

Q.  You  were  thrown  with  them  constantly?  A.  In  certain  ways, 
yes. 

0.  On  the  same  ward?  A.  On  the  same  ward  and  with  those  on 
other  wards,  and  in  the  yard.  Sometimes  I  visited  other  wards. 

Q.  On  those  wards  are  the  better  class  of  patients  ?  A.  On  the 
whole,  yes. 

Q.  The  second  was  one  of  the  best  wards  ?  A.  Yes,  on  the  whole 
it  is  considered  the  best. 

Q.  The  best?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  the  ward  known  as  the  best  ward?  A.  Known  as 
the  best. 

O.  About  how  many  of  you  were  in  that  ward  while  you  were 
there?  A.  I  can’t  state  positively  about  that.  It  varied.  I  should 
say  from  twenty  to  twenty-five  ordinarily.  My  memory,  though,  is 
not  very  distinct  on  that  point. 

Q.  How  many  nurses  were  assigned  to  that  ward?  A.  Usually 
one  to  the  ward. 

Q.  Usually  one?  A.  One. 

Q.  Nurses  and  keepers  are  the  same  thing?  A.  Always  known 
as  nurses.  They  are  about  the  same. 

Q.  The  same  thing?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  What  keepers  were  in  charge  of  the  wards  that  you  were  in 
during  the  time  you  were  here?  A.  There  were  various  ones. 
They  change  them,  you  know,  at  certain  intervals.  I  could  not 
name  all,  but  I  could  name  some,  if  you  wish. 

Q.  Well,  if  you  can  name  some,  give  us  the  names?  A.  First, 
there  was  Mr.  Berry,  who  shortly  afterwards  left.  I  don’t  know  his 
initials,  and  Mr.  Austin  was  on  the  ward.  Mr.  Stewart  was  on 
the  ward,  and  Mr.  Peter  Brown  was  likewise  on  it,  and  Mr.  Tidwell 
was  on  the  ward.  There  was  another  Mr.  Berry,  and  Mr.  Kelley, 
and  when  I  left  Mr.  Kennedy.  I  may  have  left  out  some. 

Q.  You  remember  those  names?  A.  I  do  remember  those,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  treatment,  the  general  treatment  of  these  nurses 
towards  the  patients  in  that  ward  ?  A.  On  the  whole  pretty  fair, 
but  it  varied  with  the  nurses.  Some  of  them  were  very  objection¬ 
able.  The  others  were  considered  pretty  good  fellows. 


38 


Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  specific  instances  in  which  any  of  these 
nurses  mistreated  patients?  A.  That  I  have  observed  on  that  ward 
by  violence,  do  you  mean? 

Q.  Or  any  other  way.  Do  you  know  of  any  assaults  committed 
upon  patients  ?  A.  On  that  ward  ? 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  on  any  other  ward  ?  A.  I  witnessed  one 
assault  that  was  on  the  yard. 

O.  Who  was  that  assault  made  by?  A.  That  assault  was  made 
by  two  keepers,  Dickerson  and  J.  S. - . 

O.  Who  was  the  assault  made  on  ?  A.  Patient - . 

Q.  Well,  sir,  what  was  the  character  of  this  assault?  A.  Patient 

-  had  gotten  some  way  off,  and  he  was  down  in  the  corner 

in  the  front  yard,  and  apparently  talking  to  people  outside,  really 
I  suppose  only  imaginary  people,  and  the 'attendants  went  there  to 
bring  him  away,  and  probably  to  put  him  inside.  He  didn’t  come 
willingly,  started  to  resist.  He  was  thrown  down  and  choked  into 
submission,  although  he  didn’t  offer  to  do  any  violence  that  I  saw 
to  either  of  the  nurses. 

Q.  Was  he  injured  in  any  way?  A.  Permanently,  I  should  say 
no.  He  was  choked,  however,  into  submission  by  the  two. 

Q.  Were  any  bruises  made  on  him  ?  A.  I  didn’t  examine  him. 

Q.  After  they  choked  him  and  threw  him  down,  what  became  of 
him?  A.  He  was  choked  into  submission  and  then  carried  into  the 
building. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  sign  on  his  part  of  resisting  the  keepers? 
A.  He  didn’t  want  to  go  in. 

Q.  He  didn’t  want  to  go  in?  A.  No. 

Q.  They  wanted  him  to  go  in?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  asked  him  to  go  in?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Insisted  upon  his  going  in?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  he  refused?  A.  He  refused  to  go  in. 

Q.  Then  what  did  they  do,  take  hold  of  him?  A.  Took  hold  of 
him,  threw  him  down  on  the  ground,  and  one  choked  him  into  sub¬ 
mission  on  the  ground.  Both  threw  him  down,  and  one  choked  him. 

Q.  After  he  submitted,  did  he  go  in  without  any  trouble?  A. 
He  submitted. 

Q.  And  went  in?  A.  Went  in. 

O.  Did  they  use  any  abusive  language  to  him  ?  A.  I  don’t 
remember  that. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  Mr.  -  was  from?  A.  Charleston, 

I  think.  Charleston  County,  I  know. 


39 


Q.  What  was  the  nature  of  the  man?  Was  he  quiet  and  peacea¬ 
ble,  or  disposed  to  be  disobedient?  A.  Well,  he  was  on  a  different 
ward  from  me,  and  it  was  my  observation  that  he  was  sometimes 
very  quiet  and  tractable,  but  always  ready  to  become  insulted  in 
some  way  and  get  troublesome. 

Q.  Easily  insulted?  A.  Very  easily  at  times.  At  times  he  was 
very  violent,  I  believe. 

Q.  Were  these  men  acting  under  the  rules  of  the  institution  by 
trying  to  get  him  to  go  in  ?  A.  By  getting  him  to  go  in ;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  insist  upon  the  right  to  remain  out?  A.  He  did. 

Q.  What  is  the  rule  on  that  point,  if  you  know  it?  A.  I  never 
have  seen  a  copy  of  the  rules  of  the  institution  covering  patients, 
but  it  was  customary  whenever  the  patients  got  obstreperous  out 
there  to  take  them  in. 

Q.  Did  he  become  obstreperous?  A.  He  resisted.  According 
to  what  I  saw,  he  could  have  been  taken  in  without  being  thrown 
down. 

Q.  What  is  the  custom  among  the  keepers  about  taking  them 
in  ?  Have  they  the  right  to  take  patients  in  whenever  they  want  to, 
or  have  they  a  specified  time  to  stay  out  in  the  yard  ?  A.  The 
patients  have  certain  hours  for  going  out  into  the  front  yard. 

Q.  They  go  out  at  certain  hours?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  this  one  of  those  certain  hours  that  they  were  trying 
to  get  him  to  go  in?  A.  No,  sir.  They  were  trying  to  induce  him 
to  re-enter  the  building  because  he  was  becoming,  I  suppose  you 
might  say,  violent  out  there. 

Q.  Did  he  become  violent  before  they  tried  to  get  him  to  go  in?' 
A.  That  was  what  attracted  their  attention.  He  was  speaking  in 
a  loud  voice  either  to  some  person  on  the  outside  or  to  some 
imaginary  person. 

Q.  It  was  because  of  that  loud  noise  that  they  were  trying  to 
induce  him  to  go  in  ?  A.  For  that  reason. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  became  of  those  nurses  after  that?  A. 
I  don’t  know.  One  left.  I  don’t  remember  about  the  other.  My 
recollection  is  that  he  was  here  when  I  left,  but  I  could  not  swear 
to  that. 

Q.  Which  one  is  here?  A.  Mr.  Dickerson.  I  know  he  remained 
longer  than  the  other. 

0.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  that  matter  was  ever  reported 
to  any  of  the  officers  of  the  institution?  A.  I  don’t  know  positively 


40 


of  that.  One  of  the  patients  who  was  present  said  that  he  was 
going  to  report  it.  He  told  them  so  at  the  time. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  whether  it  was,  of  your  knowledge?  A.  I 
don’t  know. 

0.  Who  was  that  patient?  A.  Dr.  - . 

Q.  He  said  he  was  going  to  report  it?  A.  He  said  he  was 
going  to. 

O.  You  don't  know?  A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  other  act  of  violence  on  any  other 
patient  ?  A.  I  know  of  some  acts  of  violence  which  I  didn’t  witness. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  them?  A.  I  know  from  the 
effects.  The  after  effects  I  saw. 

Q.  \\  ho  did  you  see  present  the  appearance  of  having  been 
violently  treated?  A.  Patient  - . 

Q.  \\  here  was  he  from?  A.  I  don’t  know  that.  He  was  from 
the  upper  portion  of  the  State. 

Q.  What  condition  did  you  see  him  in?  A.  His  face  was  blue 
and  black,  to  a  certain  extent  on  his  body.  One  eye  was  red  as 
blood. 

Q.  Anything  else?  A.  I  saw  no  other  signs  besides  his  face, 
body  and  eye. 

0.  When  did  you  see  him  in  that  condition?  A.  Several  times 
in  different  parts  of  the  building.  The  first  time  was  at  the  entrance 
of  the  passageway  leading  into  the  eating  department,  the  mess  hall. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  what  put  him  in  that  condition?  A.  Well, 
I  know  the  admission  of  the  nurses,  made  to  me. 

Q.  Who  was  the  nurse?  A.  The  nurse  was  Charlie  Brown. 

0.  What  did  Brown  say  about  it?  A.  He  said  he  would  do  it 
again  under  the  same  circumstances. 

Q.  Did  he  say  what  he  did  it  for?  A.  He  said  the  patient  hit 
him  first. 

0.  Do  you  know  what  became  of  Brown?  A.  He  left  the  insti¬ 
tution.  I  don’t  know  any  of  the  circumstances. 

0.  How  long  after  that  before  he  left  the  institution?  A.  Some 
time. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  authorities  ever  learned  about  that 
or  not  ?  A.  I  don’t  know,  but  it  was  done,  people  say. 

Q.  You  never  heard  them  say  they  knew  anything  of  it,  the 
authorities?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  never  heard  anyone  say  they  had  reported  the  matter  to 
the  authorities?  A.  I  heard  the  nurses  talking  as  if  the  authorities 


41 


had  found  out  about  it,  but  I  never  heard  anyone  of  them  say  he  had 
reported  it  to  the  authorities. 

Q.  And  you  don’t  know  what  became  of  the  keeper  ?  A.  I  know 
he  left  the  institution. 

Q  But  you  don’t  know  how  long  after  that?  A.  I  don’t  remem¬ 
ber  exactly  how  long  afterwards,  but  it  was  some  time  afterwards. 

Q.  You  were  here  when  he  left?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  What  became  of  - ?  A.  -  was  here  when  I  left. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  whether  they  are  here  or  not?  A.  No,  sir; 

I  have  no  knowledge  of  that  subject. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  any  other  instances  of  patients  being 
assaulted  by  anybody?  A.  I  saw  the  effects  again. 

Q.  On  some  other  patient?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Who?  A.  Patient - ,  of  the  first  ward. 

O.  - ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  from?  A.  I  don’t  know. 

Q.  What  condition  did  you  see  him  in?  A.  The  first  time  I  saw 
him  I  was  going  down  to  supper  and  was  attracted  by  groans.  I' 
think  he  was  an  epileptic  patient.  My  attention  was  attracted  to 
some  one  looking  through  a  peep-hole  of  the  door.  I  went  and 
looked  in  and  saw  this  man  lying  on  the  floor  with  his  back  bare, 
his  shirt  pulled  up  over  his  head,  groaning.  I  saw  him  and  inquired 
of  the  circumstances,  and  they  were  explained  to  me  at  the  time,  and 
as  I  didn’t  witness  the  assault  I  suppose  it  would  not  be  pertinent 
for  me  to  say,  but  I  saw  him  a  day  or  two  afterwards  as  I  was 
passing  out  into  the  yard,  and  there  were  some  marks  on  his  face 
at  different  places.  There  were  more  abrasions  than  bruises. 

Q.  Were  there  any  bruises  on  him  when  you  first  saw  him?  A. 

I  could  not  say,  exactly.  The  hole  was  not  large  and  he  was  lying 
on  the  floor  with  his  back  bare. 

Q.  Did  he  complain  of  any  suffering?  A.  He  was  groaning  like 
a  man  that  was  suffering. 

Q.  Groaning?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  old  a  man  was  he?  A.  I  can’t  say  his  age.  I  should  say 
about  thirty,  between  thirty  and  forty. 

0.  Did  you  find  out  how  he  got  that  mistreatment?  A. - 

0.  Yes.  A.  I  inquired  of  Mr.  - ,  and  he  explained  the  cir¬ 

cumstances  to  me. 

Q.  Who  sits  by  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  didn’t  see  it  yourself?  A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  anything  about  whether  the  authorities  found 


42 


it  out  or  not?  A.  I  don’t  know  of  my  own  knowledge.  I  know 
parties  that  evening  tried  to  get  word  out  to  Dr.  Thompson,  and 
ask  him  to  come  in  at  once  and  see  the  man.  All  my  further 
knowledge  of  the  relations  of  the  physicians  to  the  case  was  through 
Mr.  -  only. 

Q.  Did  you  evef  ascertain  who  the  nurse  was  that  did  that?  A. 
I  ascertained  in  this  way,  that  it  was  told  to  me. 

Q.  What  is  the  name?  A.  Durham  Brown,  and  a  nurse  named 
Smith. 

Q.  Smith  and  Brown?  A.  Yes,  sir,  Durham  Brown.  There  are 
several  Browns. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  become  of  them?  A.  I  don’t  know. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  they  left  the  institution  or  remained? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  had  you  been  knowing  - ?  A.  By  sight  for 

some  time.  I  didn’t  know  his  name.  I  would  know  to  see  him. 

Q.  What  was  his  disposition?  A.  I  don’t  know  much  about  that. 
He  was  in  the  first  ward  and  I  in  the  second. 

Q.  In  a  different  ward  from  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  him  show  any  signs  of  violence  or  diso¬ 
bedience  to  the  nurses?  A.  I  think  I  have  seen  him  try  to  get  out 
into  the  front  yard. 

Q.  Try  to  get  out?  A.  Yes  sir.  That  is  frequently  done,  though, 
by  patients  who  have  no  right  to  go  out. 

Q.  Did  he  make  any  particular  noise  in  trying  to  get  out  or 
anything?  A.  I  didn’t  hear  any  noise  in  particular.  He  was  usually 
pushed  back.  I  saw  him  wearing  straps  at  one  time,  I  think. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  what  the  straps  were  put  on  him  for?  A. 
They  usually  put  them  on  for  violence,  but  the  specific  violence 
I  don’t  know.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  I  remember  now  seeing  them 
put  on  him  one  time. 

Q.  Do  you  know  who  put  them  on  him  and  what  for?  A.  I  don’t 
know  what  for,  but  I  think  Mr.  Wilson  was  putting  them  on  him — 
some  straps. 

Q.  Mr.  Wilson?  A.  Yes,  sir.  He  is  present  here. 

Q.  Was  any  other  patient  mistreated  that  came  to  your 
knowledge?  A.  Mistreatment,  you  know  there  are  several  kinds 
of  mistreatment. 

Q.  Tell  me  if  you  saw  any  violence?  A.  Violence? 

0.  Any  assaults.  Give  them  first.  You  spoke  of  - -  and 

-  and  - ,  anybody  else?  A.  No,  sir;  I  didn’t  see  any- 


43 


body  else  mistreated,  as  I  have  stated.  I  saw  another  patient  after 
he  was  mistreated. 

O.  Who  was  he?  A.  - . 

Q.  What  condition  did  he  present?  A.  What  struck  me  was 
that  his  eye  was  very  badly  discolored. 

Q.  Did  he  complain  of  any  mistreatment  ?  A.  He  got  word  to 
his  brother  about  it,  I  believe.  He  tried  to. 

Q.  Did  he  complain  to  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Of  any  nurse?  A.  He  did. 

Q.  What  nurse?  A.  Glover. 

Q.  Glover?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Do  you  know  what  became  of  Glover  ?  A.  He  was  discharged. 

Q.  For  that?  A.  According  to  my  knowledge,  for  that. 

Q.  Your  understanding  was  that  he  was  discharged  for  that? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  discharged  him  ?  A.  I  suppose  the  Superintendent.  I 
don’t  know  myself. 

Q.  Was  it  immediately  afterwards,  that  he  was  discharged?  A. 
It  was  an  assault.  My  memory  is  not  clear.  It  was  within  a  day 
or  within  a  day  or  two.  I  can’t  tell. 

Q.  Anyway,  a  short  time  after  that?  A.  It  was  within  one  day, 
according  to  my  recollection,  after  the  assault  was  committed. 

Q.  Did  you  know  -  pretty  well?  A.  He  was  on  the  fifth 

and  came  to  the  second. 

Q.  What  was  his  temperament?  A.  He  was  an  epileptic  and  very 
hard  to  manage  sometimes. 

Q.  Hard  to  manage?  A.  Yes,  sir.  He  is  a  very  small  man, 
though. 

Q.  You  don  t  know  the  cause  of  his  getting  his  eye  hurt?  A. 
V\  ell,  I  know  that  he  told  me  that  he  was  down  on  the  fourth  ward, 
which  is  just  below  his  ward,  and  he  was  being  made  to  go  upstairs 
to  his  ward. 

Q.  You  don  t  know  whether  he  had  to  be  made  to  go  up  or  not? 
\  ou  don  t  know  what  he  was  doing?  A.  Only  that  I  heard  he  didn’t 
have  a  chance.  He  was  inclined  to  argue. 

Q.  You  didn’t  see  it  yourself?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  anybody  who  did  see  it?  A.  T  don’t  know 
any  one  I  could  name  who  saw  it. 

Q.  What  became  of - ?  A.  He  was  here  when  I  left. 

O.  Have  you  ever  seen  any  straps  on  him?  A.  I  am  not  sure 


44 


on  that  point,  sir.  It  would  be  quite  probable,  but  I  don’t  know 
whether  I  have  or  not. 

Q.  What  was  the  custom  about  putting  straps  on?  A.  I  think 
I  have  seen  him  in  restraint.  As  I  understand  it,  it  is  partly  to 
protect  a  patient  against  himself  and  partly  to  keep  them  from 
doing  injury  to  others. 

Q.  They  didn’t  put  straps  on  any  except  those  who  were  disposed 
to  be  violent?  A.  That  was  our  understanding  of  what  it  was  to 
be  done  for. 

Q.  That  is  the  rule  of  the  institution?  A.  I  can’t  say.  I  have 
never  seen  them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  an  instance  of  straps  being  put  on  patients 
when  they  were  not  considered  dangerous  or  violent  ?  A.  I  never 
saw  straps  put  on  anybody  without  cause.  I  was  on  the  second 
ward  and  only  went  to  the  other  wards  occasionally. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  Mr.  -  treatment,  - 

from  Greenville?  A.  - ? 

Q.  -  from  Greenville  County?  A.  I  don't  remember  Mr. 

- ,  just  at  present. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  whether  he  was  in  there  before  you  left  or 
not?  A.  I  don’t  remember.  Possibly  he  was  there. 

Q.  A  lawyer  from  Greenville  County?  A.  I  don’t  remember  him. 

Q.  Did  you  know  a  keeper  or  nurse  by  the  name  of  Bryan  ?  A. 
I  don’t  remember  any  such  name. 

Q.  May  be  it  was  Brown  ?  A.  There  were  several  Browns. 

Q.  Which  one  of  the  Browns  made  that  admission  to  you  ?  A. 
About  mistreating  a  patient? 

0.  Yes?  A.  That  nurse  was  Charlie  Brown.  What  his  initials 
were  I  don’t  know.  I  think  they  were  C.  W. 

Q.  - .  what  was  your  treatment  while  you  were  here? 

A.  Well,  the  first  time  I  was  here  I  was  treated  with  violence  two 
or  three  times,  but  the  second  time  I  have  no  complaint  of  personal 
treatment. 

Q.  Who  treated  you  violently  the  first  time  you  were  here?  A. 
A  nurse  who  has  since  left. 

0.  That  nurse  has  left?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  think  he  has  been  away 
some  time. 

Q.  What  is  his  name?  A.  Nesbitt. 

0.  What  did  he  treat  you  violently  about?  A.  There  were  three 
separate  occasions,  twice  for  offering  some  insulting  act  towards 
him,  and  once  for  insulting  language. 


45 


I  want  to  put  in  the  record  that  I  never  cherished  any  ill-feeling 
towards  him  because  he  thought  what  I  did  was  for  pure  meanness, 
and  afterwards  when  he  found  out  it  was  not  that,  he  apologized 
and  told  me  he  was  sorry,  and  I  never  have  had  anything  but 
kindly  feelings  for  him. 

Q.  You  accepted  his  apology?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  think  that  treatment  you  received  was  a  just  one?  A.  I 
don’t  think  so,  because  I  don’t  think  a  nurse,  according  to  my  point 
of  view,  has  a  right  to  strike  a  patient. 

Q.  Were  you  strapped?  A.  I  was  strapped  on  my  bare  skin. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  to  cause  yourself  to  be  strapped.  A.  It  is 
necessary  to  say  that? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  I  spit  at  him. 

Q.  How  close  were  you  to  him  when  you  spit  at  him?  A.  I  had 
just  got  out  of  the  bath  tub. 

Q.  Was  he  doing  anything  to  you?  A.  No.  I  thought  I  was 
ordered  to  do  it  by  a  divine  power.  That  was  the  idea  I  had. 

Q.  You  were  naked  at  the  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  those  occasions  distinctly  after  you  come 
to  be  yourself  again?  A.  I  remember  that  distinctly,  and  practi¬ 
cally  everything. 

0.  You  must  have  been  in  a  pretty  bad  fix  when  you  were  first 
brought  here?  A.  I  was.  The  doctors  will  tell  you  that  I  was  all 
to  pieces.  All  the  time  I  was  feeling  these  injunctions,  but  I 
didn’t  yield  until  I  left  Philadelphia. 

Q.  You  were  suffering  from  hallucinations?  A.  Yes,  sir.  That 
is  what  they  are  called. 

Q.  Did  you  feel  disposed  to  do  violence  to  anybody?  A.  No 
desire  to  do  harm. 

Q.  No  desire  to  do  harm?  A.  For  the  sake  of  doing  harm. 

Q.  When  you  were  put  in  straps,  how  long  were  you  kept  there? 
A.  I  was  not  speaking  about  being  in  straps,  but  being  strapped 
with  a  strap  on  my  skin.  I  was  not  put  in  straps. 

0.  How  long  were  you  kept  in  ?  A.  I  suppose  for  nearly  a 
month.  There  was  no  reason  why  I  should  not  have  been.  That 
was  the  proper  treatment.  I  asked  my  brother  to  put  me  in,  and 
the  straps  were  the  proper  treatment  for  me. 

Q.  You  have  no  complaint?  A.  Not  the  slightest.  In  fact,  I  was 
treated  with  consideration. 

Q.  Have  you  any  complaint  against  the  institution  for  anv  treat¬ 
ment?  Do  you  think  you  received  any  unjust  treatment?  A.  I 


46 


don’t  think  so,  except  what  I  have  mentioned,  which  I  don’t  hold 
any  grudge  for.  I  don’t  want  to  make  a  statement  too  absolute. 
I  don’t  think  I  received  everything  that  I  was  possibly  entitled  to 
•  from  the  point  of  view  of  charity  and  benevolence,  but  I  did  receive, 

I  think,  no  positive  ill-treatment  for  which  I  could  express  a  grudge, 
and  in  some  respects  I  received  the  greatest  kindness. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  make  any  complaint  of  any  mistreatment  to  Dr. 
Thompson  or  Dr.  Babcock  of  any  of  these  things?  A.  I  made  no 
complaint  of  the  mistreatment  of  which  I  have  just  spoken.  I  made 
no  complaint. 

Q.  Of  that?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Of  any  other?  Of  any  personal  treatment,  I  don’t  remember. 

Q.  That  is  what  I  am  asking?  A.  I  don’t  remember  making  any 
complaint. 

Q.  Did  you  make  any  complaint  to  any  of  the  authorities  of 
mistreatment  of  any  other  patient,  that  any  other  patient  was  mis¬ 
treated?  A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  After  you  came  back  the  second  time  and  remained  here  two 
years,  did  anything  ever  happen  that  you  thought  unjust  to  you, 
while  here  the  last  time?  A.  Unjust  to  me  positively? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  No,  not  at  all. 

Q.  Who  had  charge  of  your  case?  A.  Dr.  Thompson  was  the 
only  physician  that  I  saw. 

Q.  Dr.  Thompson  was  in  charge  of  that  ward?  A.  Except  on 
one  occasion. 

Q.  These  acts  of  violence  you  speak  of.  Were  they  when  you 
were  here  the  first  time  or  after  you  came  back  the  second,  time, 
and  these  other  patients?  A.  Those  on  other  patients  were  all 
the  second  time.  You  know  the  first  is  a  very  long  time  ago,  and 
I  tried  to  forget  them  for  five  years,  and  I  haven’t  any  very  distinct 
recollection. 

Q.  Were  you  at  what  they  call  the  payable  or  the  beneficiary 
table?  A.  I  ate  in  what  they  call  the  little  pay  room. 

Q.  Were  you  in  as  a  beneficiary  or  pay?  A.  To  my  knowledge 
beneficiary.  I  have  no  exact  knowledge. 

Q.  That  is  your  understanding?  A.  I  was  a  beneficiary.  I  am 
morally  sure  that  I  was. 

Q.  What  kind  of  food  did  you  receive?  A.  In  this  little  pay 
room? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  Well,  I  would  consider  it  poor. 

Q.  Poor?  A.  Poor. 


47 


Q.  What  did  it  consist  of?  What  did  they  generally  give  you 
to  eat?  A.  For  breakfast  it  was  hominy,  usually;  I  am  not  up  on 
the  parts  of  the  hog,  but  I  called  it  fried  ham  or  bacon ;  ham,  I 
think,  and  biscuits  with  a  kind  of  coffee,  and  sometimes  for  break¬ 
fast  also,  by  way  of  variety,  eggs,  either  poached  or  friend.  As  to 
the  fried,  I  am  not  positive,  but  I  think  sometimes  fried. 

Q.  For  dinner,  what  did  they  give  you  ?  A.  For  dinner,  it  was 
ordinarily  a  rice  cooked  into  a  mush,  and  the  same  ham  or  bacon ; 
that  is,  salt  meat,  I  think  it  is  called ;  also  corn  bread  baked,  very 
often,  and  during  certain  seasons,  potatoes,  and  at  one  season  of  the 
year  there  were  a  good  many  vegetables,  quantities  sometimes. 

Q.  What  did  you  get  to  drink?  A.  Those  were  not  all  at  once, 
usually  four  or  five  at  once,  milk  usually. 

Q.  Butter  or  sweet  milk?  A.  Sweet  milk. 

Q.  Supper  was  light?  A.  It  was  light  usually — bread  and 
molasses  and  milk  or  the  same  kind  of  coffee. 

Q.  What  kind  of  bread?  A.  Sometimes  pretty  poor  and  some¬ 
times  fair. 

0.  Your  bread  was  baker’s  bread?  A.  We  speak  only  of  baker’s 
bread  in  the  low  country. 

Q.  How  was  it  cooked?  A.  Baked,  and  it  was  sometimes  good 
and  sometimes  poor. 

Q.  How  about  the  hominy?  A.  The  hominy?  I  haven’t  been 
used  to  that  hominy,  and  I  don’t  know  that  I  am  a  good  critic.  It 
was  always  yellow,  but  that  may  be  due  to  the  fact  that  it  was 
ground  yellow  corn. 

Q.  How  about  the  coffee?  A.  That  was  pretty  poor. 

Q.  What  the  objection  to  it?  A.  I  didn’t  drink  much  of  it,  but 
what  I  did  drink  was  very  weak. 

Q.  Is  that  the  objection  to  it?  A.  I  think  so.  It  was  very  weak 
and  tasteless. 

Q.  The  sweet  milk  was  better?  A.  The  sweet  milk  was  usually 
very  good,  sometimes  very  nice.  Occasionally  I  would  see  some 
sediment  in  the  bottom,  but  that  was  the  exception. 

Q.  The  milk  that  was  served  came  from  the  dairy?  A.  Accord¬ 
ing  to  my  knowledge,  yes,  but  I  don’t  know. 

Q.  That  is  your  understanding  of  it.  it  came  from  the  Asylum 
dairy?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  about  the  rice,  Mr.  - ?  A.  The  rice  was  pretty 

poor.  It  was  mush.  It  was  rice  mush. 

Q.  You  come  from  a  rice  country.  What  would  you  say  as  to 


48 


the  cooking  of  the  grits?  A.  Pretty  poor,  coming  from  a  rice 
country. 

Q.  How  about  the  quality  of  the  rice?  A.  That  is  pretty  hard 
to  tell.  The  taste  was  nothing.  I  don’t  know  that  I  could  give  an 
opinion  about  it  because  it  was  cooked  in  such  a  way  I  could  not 
tell  the  quality.  Any  rice,  the  very  best,  is  poor  if  the  cooking  of 
it  is  bad. 

Q.  How  many  patients  were  at  that  table  while  you  were  here? 
A.  The  number  varied.  I  should  say  in  the  neighborhood  of  ten. 
It  varied,  however,  sometimes  more  and  sometimes  less. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  discrimination  against  the  other  patients  in 
favor  of  you  all  were  in  there,  in  the  matter  of  what  they  gave  you 
and  how  it  was  prepared?  A.  The  patients  in  our  room  ate  those 
dishes  that  I  have  set  forth,  and  they  helped  themselves.  Right 
across  in  another  room,  the  big  pay  room,  the  plates  were  helped 
for  the  patients,  but  they  always  said  they  got  the  same  thing  we 
did,  but  the  big  mess  hall  did  not  get  the  same  thing. 

Q.  What  w’as  the  difference?  A.  What  they  ate?  I  am  sure  I 
never  saw  any  fried  meat. 

Q.  The  big  mess  hall  ?  A.  Their  meals  were  served  in  tin  plates 
which  were  very  greasy,  and  usually  it  was  all  put  together  in  one 
plate.  The  patients  in  the  mess  hall  complained  very  bitterly. 

Q.  How  were  you  all  served  ?  A.  We  had  china  plates  and  had 
forks  and  knives. 

Q.  Were  the  meals  dished  out?  A.  We  helped  ourselves. 

Q.  Do  I  understand  that  in  the  big  mess  hall  it  was  dished  out 
and  passed  to  the  patients?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  there  is  much  complaint  in  the  big  mess  hall?  A.  Those 
who  speak  about  it  at  all  say  it  ought  to  be  better. 

Q.  What  do  they  say  against  it?  A.  They  say  it  was  very  poor, 
and  it  was  served  in  such  a  way  that  all  the  appetite  they  had  was 
destroyed.  At  the  same  time  there  were  patients  in  that  mess 
hall  who  ate  right  along  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Did  they  have  pretty  much  the  same  thing  that  came  to  those 
other  tables,  prepared  in  the  same  way?  A.  That  is  my  idea  of  it, 
that  they  did.  I  don't  think  they  have  so  much.  I  don’t  think  they 
had  any  milk  at  all.  What  they  had  was  served  in  tin  plates  and 
tin  cups. 

Q.  Cooked  in  the  same  way?  Was  one  cooked  better  or  all  in 
the  same  way?  A.  So  far  as  I  know. 


49 


Q.  They  had  only  one  kitchen  ?  A.  So  far  as  my  idea  goes  in 
that  part  of  the  building. 

Q.  Were  you  in  the  kitchen  while  you  were  here?  A.  I  never 
went  in  it  once.  I  have  looked  at  it  from  the  mess  hall,  but  never 
was  in  it. 

Q.  What  appearance  did  it  present  when  you  looked  into  it? 
A.  Very  dirty. 

Q.  Dirty?  A.  Very  dirty. 

Q.  Do  you  know  who  did  the  cooking?  A.  I  don’t  know.  You 
mean  the  cooks  themselves? 

Q.  The  cooks  themselves?  A.  So  far  as  my  observation  went  it 
was  done  by  negroes,  with  white  men  in  charge. 

Q.  Hired  or  patients?  A.  That  I  don’t  know.  It  was  reported 
that  they  were  patients. 

Q.  The  white  man  was  not  a  patient?  A.  The  white  man  was 
hired.  Will  you  let  me  correct  that  on  consideration.  I  don’t  know 
whether  those  were  hired  or  patients. 

Q.  Those  colored  ones  ?  A.  Those  colored  ones. 

Q.  You  know  the  white  man  was  hired?  A.  As  far  as  my 
knowledge  goes,  he  was  hired. 

Q.  Did  the  patients  in  your  room  seem  to  enjoy  their  meals 
pretty  well?  A.  Sometimes,  and  sometimes  not. 

Q.  Did  they  complain  much?  A.  On  the  whole,  no.  It 
depended  on  the  individual  and  on  the  dish.  Sometimes  there  was 
complaint  and  sometimes  they  said  they  enjoyed  the  meal. 

Q.  Enjoyed  the  meal?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  they  give  you  any  dessert  for  dinner,  usually?  A.  Occa¬ 
sionally,  and  during  the  berry  season  last  year  there  was  quite  a 
number  of  times  we  had  berries,  and  at  the  watermelon  season  we 
had  watermelons. 

Q.  Did  you  get  pies  for  dessert?  A.  Christmas  times  and  possi¬ 
bly  a  little  at  other  times,  but  not  as  a  usual  thing.  Last  winter  we 
had  pork  for  breakfast  and  dinner,  a  small  piece. 

Q.  Were  your  vegetables  furnished  to  you  from  the  farm  here? 
A.  To  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Prepared  pretty  well?  A.  I  think  not.  The  preparation  did 
not  impress  me  as  good. 

Q.  Did  the  food  come  to  the  table  warm  or  cold  ?  A.  Sometimes 
it  was  warm,  but  on  the  whole  it  had  to  wait  on  the  table  a  good 
while  before  the  patients  got  to  it. 

Q.  How  did  you  know  when  your  meals  were  ready?  Did  you 


4— A. 


50 


have  some  signal?  A.  No  bell.  Somebody  hollered.  There  was 
a  fellow  who  hollered  on  each  ward. 

Q.  That  the  meal  was  ready?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  time  did  you  get  breakfact?  A.  It  varied  with  the 
seasons.  It  was,  I  should  say,  from  half-past  seven  to  half-past 
eight,  somewhere  along  there,  differed  with  the  seasons ;  in  the 
summer  earlier  and  in  the  winter  later. 

Q.  At  present  early?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  had  soup  for  dinner?  A.  Sometimes. 

Q.  How  was  it  prepared?  A.  Well,  I  enjoyed  the  soup  very 
much,  the  okra  soup,  for  a  time,  the  macaroni,  but  my  taste  was 
spoiled  one  time. 

Q.  What  did  you  find  in  it?  A.  A  worm. 

Q.  In  the  macaroni  soup?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Did  you  see  anything  at  any  other  time  in  the  soup?  A.  I 
didn’t  investigate  after  that. 

Q.  The  soup  didn’t  appear  to  be  clean?  A.  It  is  pretty  hard  to 
tell  whether  soup  is  properly  clean  or  not.  I  could  not  answer  to 
that  definitely. 

Q.  What  time  of  the  year  was  it  you  discovered  that  worm,  what 
season  of  the  year?  A.  I  don't  remember,  sir. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  whether  it  was  in  the  summer  or  not?  A.  I 
can’t  remember.  I  remember  the  discovery. 

Q.  That  sometimes  happens  in  the  best  regulated  families?  A.  I 
mentioned  that  merely  as  explaining  why  I  did  not  indulge  again.  I 
suppose  that  is  the  case. 

Q.  What  seasoned  the  soup,  beef  or  chicken?  A.  We  had  no 
chicken,  but  the  okra  and  the  other  soup  we  had  was  pretty  good. 

Q.  Pretty  good?  A.  Yes,  sir;  it  was  pretty  good. 

Q.  Not  what  you  would  call  hot  water?  A.  On  the  whole,  quite 
good.  There  were  times  it  was  poor,  but  on  the  whole  it  was  good. 

Q.  Did  you  get  butter?  A.  I  would  not  call  it  butter.  It  seemed 
to  be  some  preparation  of  some  oil. 

Q.  Butterine?  A.  I  think  so. 

Q.  You  didn’t  use  the  dairy  butter.  They  gave  you  the  milk? 
A.  Yes,  sir ;  in  the  little  pay  room,  we  got  milk. 

Q.  Was  that  pretty  good  ?  You  could  observe  it  pretty  well  ?  A. 
Sometimes  it  was  and  sometimes  it  was  not.  I  rarely  touched  it 
unless  I  put  sugar  in  it. 

Q.  Was  it  clean  ?  A.  Sometimes  it  was  and  sometimes  it  was  not. 

Q.  You  disliked  the  butter?  A.  I  disliked  it. 


51 


Q.  Did  you  go  to  the  dairy  any  ?  A.  I  never  went  to  the  dairy. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  where  the  hominy  came  from 
that  they  served?  A.  My  idea  was  that  it  was  ground  on  the  place. 

Q.  In  a  mill  owned  by  the  institution?  A.  That  was  my  impres¬ 
sion  of  it. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  that  going  on?  A.  I  saw  some  corn  being 
ground,  and  I  was  informed  that  it  was  for  hominy. 

Q.  Did  you  see  anything  wrong  about  that?  A.  It  was  full  of 
weevils. 

Q.  The  corn  was  full  of  weevils?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  time  of  the  year  was  that?  A.  Towards  the  latter  part 
of  the  summer  or  early  fall. 

Q.  Who  was  grinding  it?  Who  had  charge  of  the  mill?  A.  I 
don’t  remember.  I  happened  to  go  down  to  the  mill  or  shoe  shop 
and  stopped.  There  was  no  one  in  it  at  the  time. 

Q.  What  bathing  arrangements  did  they  have  in  the  ward  ?  A. 
In  each  ward  is  a  bath  tub  and  a  wash  basin  in  the  bath  room  for 
the  hands. 

Q  There  is  one  in  each  ward?  A.  Yes,  and  then  some  patients, 
some  few  patients,  were  permitted  to  have  pitchers  in  their  rooms 
with  basins. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  rule  about  bathing  the  patients,  and  how 
often  it  is  done?  A.  They  were  supposed,  I  think,  to  bathe  once 
a  week,  and  a  change  of  clothing  was  made  once  a  week  under 
compulsion. 

Q.  Who  had  charge  of  looking  after  the  bathing  of  the  patients? 
A.  My  idea  was  the  attendant  on  each  ward  had  to  see  that  those 
in  their  care  were  bathed. 

Q.  Those  that  were  old  and  feeble  and  not  sufficiently  bright  to 
look  after  bathing  themselves,  how  about  them?  A.  Very  often 
patients  bathed  them,  sometimes  the  nurses,  assisted  by  the  patients. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  instance  of  more  than  one  patient  being 
bathed  in  the  same  water?  A.  I  do. 

Q.  How  many  instances?  A.  I  saw  on  one  occasion  a  tub  full  of 
water  over  on  the  fifth  ward,  and  the  patients  on  that  ward  bathed 
in  it.  I  commented  on  the  fact  to  one  of  them  that  they  were  bathing 
them  all  in  the  same  water.  I  mentioned  it  to  an  attendant.  I  saw 
that. 

Q.  Did  the  attendant  know  that  it  was  being  done?  A.  He  was 
taking  part  in  it. 

Q.  Who  was  that?  A.  I  don’t  remember. 


52 


Q.  Do  you  remember  the  names  of  the  patients?  A.  Fifth  ward. 

Q.  Give  the  names?  A.  They  vary  so  much  on  each  ward. 
They  were  fifth  ward  patients  as  a  whole.  I  didn’t  stay  there  and 
watch  it.  I  only  noticed  it  was  being  done. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many  patients  were  bathed  in  the  same 
water?  A.  I  think  all  were  on  that  ward. 

Q.  Bathing  in  the  same  water?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  can’t  swear  to 
that  positively.  I  can  swear  to  the  fact  that  there  were  several, 
and  to  my  knowledge  all  that  were  being  bathed  that  day. 

Q.  Was  that  when  you  were  here  the  first  or  the  last  time? 
A.  When  I  saw  it? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  When  I  was  here  the  last  time. 

Q.  Was  any  complaint  made  to  the  authorities  about  that?  A. 
Not  that  I  know  of.  It  was  done  on  the  fifth  ward. 

Q.  You  don’t  know?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  of  its  being  made?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  water  supply  is  ample  or  not? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  There  is  no  scarcity?  A.  It  has  been  ample  since  the  new 
water  works  system  of  Columbia  has  been  connected  with  the 
institution,  according  to  my  knowledge.  Before  that  I  think  it  was 
sometimes  poor. 

Q.  When  you  knew  that  patients  were  being  bathed  in  the  same 
water,  was  that  before  or  after  you  got  the  city  water?  A.  I  can’t 
remember,  but  I  know  several  patients  over  on  the  fifth  ward  were 
bathed  in  the  same  water. 

Q.  But  you  don’t  know,  at  the  time  you  saw  this  yourself,  any¬ 
thing  about  the  supply  of  water  to  the  institution?  A.  My  impres¬ 
sion  is  that  there  was  something  the  matter. 

Q.  With  the  water?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  A  scarcity  of  it?  A.  Yes,  sir.  That  is  my  impression.  As 
I  said,  every  week  the  fifth  ward  patients  are  bathed  on  a  certain 
day,  and  they  don’t  change  the  water  for  the  fifth  ward  patients. 

Q.  They  do  not?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  class  of  patients  were  those  being  bathed  in  the  same 
water?  A.  The  fifth  ward  patients  are,  on  the  whole,  very  weak 
and  very  feeble-minded. 

Q.  The  bath  rooms,  were  they  kept  pretty  clean?  A.  No,  sir,  it 
was  not. 

Q.  What  appearance  did  they  present?  A.  You  mean  five? 

Q.  Of  your  own,  first  ward?  A.  On  my  ward  it  was  fair,  but 


53 


very  often  there  were  mops  left  in  there  on  the  floor,  and  the  floor 
was  wet.  It  was  mopped,  I  think,  once  a  day ;  and  later  on  a  patient 
came,  and  was  very  fond  of  cleaning,  and  he  kept  it  pretty  clean. 

Q.  How  about  the  fifth  ward  ?  A.  That  bath  room  was  in  very 
bad  shape. 

Q.  What  was  the  objection  to  it?  A.  There  were  a  lot  of  ill¬ 
smelling  mops.  Sometimes  soiled  clothing  was  left  in  there,  and 
sometimes  mops  with  ill-smelling  odors.  It  was  very  uncleanly. 

Q.  How  about  the  closets?  A.  They  varied,  sometimes  clean  and 
sometimes  not.  A  great  deal  of  this  depends  on  the  attendants. 
Some  attendants  were  unclean  and  inefficient,  and  others  ignorant 
and  neglectful.  On  the  whole,  I  would  say  it  was  very  bad  in  the 
water  closets  and  the  bath  rooms,  unless  the  attendant  was  a  par¬ 
ticularly  energetic  fellow. 

Q.  A  good  deal  would  depend  on  the  patients?  A.  It  depended 
on  the  patients.  If  it  was  cleaned  a  patient  had  to  do  it. 

Q.  Were  the  patients  cleanly  or  uncleanly  themselves?  A.  That 
depended  on  the  patients. 

Q.  Were  there  many  in  there  that  were  filthy?  A.  Second  ward? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  No,  I  think  not.  There  were  three  or  four  that 
didn’t  care  for  themselves  much,  but  ordinarily  such  patients  were 
sent  elsewhere. 

Q.  How  about  the  fifth  ward?  A.  A  great  many  of  those  could 
not  take  care  of  themselves. 

Q.  Could  not?  A.  No,  sir.  They  were  cleaned  if  possible,  once 
a  week,  unless  they  defiled  themselves,  and  then  oftener. 

Q.  That  class  of  patients  would  necessarily  be  filthy?  A.  Unless 
watched  very  closely. 

Q.  Were  they  pretty  particular  about  the  clothes?  A.  I  think 
not.  On  the  whole,  they  were  not. 

Q.  How  often  did  they  give  them  clean  clothes?  A.  Once  a 
week  was  the  regular  time. 

Q.  Did  they  come  from  the  laundrv  in  pretty  good  shape?  A. 
No,  sir.  You  are  speaking  about  other  wards  than  the  second? 

Q.  No,  the  ward  you  know  about,  your  own  ward?  A.  In  some 
wards  they  have  their  own  clothes,  and  change  oftener,  but  the 
State’s  clothes  are  given  out  once  a  week.  On  the  other  wards  it  was 
the  same  way,  once  a  week. 

Q.  When  the  clothes  came  in  from  the  laundry,  were  they  well 
washed?  A.  Sometimes  they  were,  usually  they  were  clean.  The 
socks  were  not.  The  socks  smelled  very  badly. 


54 


Q.  It  is  pretty  hard  to  keep  clean  socks  ?  A.  Possibly  so.  They 
were  never  turned.  I  had  to  sort  them,  and  it  was  all  I  could  do 
sometimes  to  get  through. 

Q.  What  kind  of  socks,  woolen  socks?  A.  Cotton,  I  think. 
There  are  some  woolen  socks,  but  most  of  the  patients  on  my  ward 
were  patients  wearing  State  clothes  and  they  were  cotton,  very  good 
socks. 

Q.  Was  the  general  clothing  furnished  by  the  State  pretty  good? 
A.  Some  of  it  was  very  good  indeed.  The  summer  underwear  was 
very  nice.  I  think  it  was  army  stuff,  and  the  winter  underwear  was 
warm,  and,  I  think,  pretty  good. 

Q.  How  about  the  beds?  A.  The  beds  depended  on  the  patients 
or  the  nurse  on  the  ward. 

Q.  Did  you  have  a  good  bed?  A.  I  had  a  pretty  good  bed,  yes. 

Q.  Clean?  A.  I  could  not  say,  an  old  bed  rather;  old  iron 
springs.  There  were  bugs  on  it. 

Q.  Many?  A.  A  good  many. 

Q.  Did  they  disturb  you  much?  A.  Sometimes  they  would  and 
sometimes  I  would  use  a  liquid  on  it  to  keep  them  down  some. 

Q.  Were  any  efforts  made  to  destroy  them?  A.  The  beds  were 
treated  or  supposed  to  be  treated.  I  can’t  say  that  there  was  any 
definite  time  in  our  ward.  It  depended  on  the  patient. 

Q.  They  were  treated?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  By  the  attendants  ?  A.  Sometimes  by  the  attendant  and  some¬ 
times  by  the  patient.  It  depended  on  the  patient. 

Q.  The  patients  could  mash  out  a  good  many?  A.  I  don’t  think 
the  mashing  process  would  help  much. 

Q.  How  did  you  get  rid  of  them?  A.  They  had  a  liquid  for  it 
that  would  keep  them  in  some  sort  of  subjection  for  a  while. 

Q.  Did  they  use  a  regular  bedbug  exterminator?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  the  liquid  you  speak  of?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Kills  them  and  the  eggs?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  the  beds  wood  or  metal  ?  A.  Some  wood  and  some 
metal.  Mine  was  metal. 

O.  The  beds  generally  are  wood?  A.  Yes,  sir.  My  idea  is  that 
they  were  wood. 

Q.  Have  they  been  here  a  long  time?  A.  Some  must  have  been 
here  a  long  time. 

0.  Do  you  know  whether  they  have  beds  enough  or  not?  Does 
anybody  in  your  ward  sleep  crowded  or  on  mattresses  on  the  floors  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 


55 


Q.  Do  they  have  single  beds?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Does  each  man  have  a  separate  room?  A.  No,  sir.  There 
were  usually  two  in  a  room,  ordinary  size  room,  and  then  they 
had  some  large  rooms. 

Q.  Had  a  number  in  them  ?  A.  A  number  in  the  large  rooms. 

Q.  Every  man  had  a  separate  bed?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  there  much  complaint  about  the  sleeping  arrangements 
among  the  patients?  A.  none,  except  the  bedbugs.  I  don’t  think 
so.  We  usually  had  enough  to  keep  us  warm  in  the  winter.  They 
changed  the  bedding  once  a  week.  It  depended  upon  the  patient. 
I  have  seen  some  longer  than  that,  some  weeks  perhaps. 

Q.  Were  the  mattresses  clean  ?  A.  Infested  with  bugs. 

Q.  Besides  that  they  were  pretty  well  kept?  A.  Pretty  well. 
They  were  not  sunned  unless  the  patients  did  it. 

Q.  I  will  ask  you  about  the  complaints  about  bugs,  how  general 
was  it?  A.  To  my  knowledge  the  bugs  were  everywhere. 

Q.  On  the  different  wards?  A.  Altogether  general. 

Q.  Was  the  same  true  when  you  were  here  the  first  and  second 
time?  A.  It  was  the  first  time  I  was  here.  I  remember  I  had  a 
room  that  was  so  infested  that  I  finally  got  at  it  with  plaster  of 
Paris  and  whitewash. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  difficulty  of  killing  bugs 
when  they  get  started  in  a  place?  A.  I  know  it  is  generally  pretty 
hard,  but  my  room  had  bug  nests  all  over  the  walls,  and  I  went  to 
Mr.  Mitchell  to  see  if  he  had  any  whitewash,  and  he  said  there  was 
nobody  to  do  the  work,  that  Dr.  Babcock  was  in  Europe,  and  he 
could  not  do  anything. 

Q.  When  was  it  you  went  to  him?  A.  After  Dr.  Babcock  went 
abroad. 

Q.  Last  summer?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  went  to  Dr.  Thompson  ?  A.  He  was  the  attending  physi¬ 
cian  here. 

Q.  You  went  to  whom?  A.  To  Mr.  Mitchell. 

Q.  Who  is  Mr.  Mitchell?  A.  He  is  the  Supervisor. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  long  he  has  been  here?  A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  A  number  of  years?  A.  I  don’t  remember. 

Q.  A  pretty  efficient  officer?  A.  I  found  him  pretty  good. 

Q.  Did  you  see  much  of  him  while  you  were  in  here?  A.  I  saw 
a  good  deal  of  him  and  wrote  him  after  I  left  a  letter  in  which  I 
told  him  he  had  given  me  a  square  deal. 

Q.  That  he  gave  you  a  square  deal  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


56 


0.  Did  you  have  much  talk  with  him  while  you  were  here?  A. 
In  a  casual  way. 

Q.  He  is  the  general  supervisor?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  does  not  go  into  the  wards  himself,  often?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  What  were  his  duties  in  the  ward  ?  A.  It  was  my  idea  he  was 
charged  with  the  management  from  the  medical  side. 

Q.  Over  these  nurses?  A.  Over  all  the  nurses. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  make  any  reports  to  him  about  mistreatment 
towards  the  patients,  or  complaints  about  the  patients?  A.  No.  sir. 
I  did  not.  I  have  made  two  reports  to  him  in  the  course  of  my  stay. 

Q.  What  two?  A.  One  about  consuming  eggs  on  the  ward,  the 
fifth  ward,  and  the  other  about  the  consumption  of  eggs  that  were 
being  furnished  for  food  in  the  little  pay  room. 

Q.  What  about  the  eggs  consumed  on  the  fifth  ward?  A.  Every 
night  there  would  be  eggs  cooked  over  there.  The  second  ward 
adjoins  the  fifth,  and  the  cooking  of  eggs  was  going  on  over  there 
regularly  for  several  evenings,  and  I  told  him  I  thought  he  wanted 
to  know  that  it  was  going  on,  that  these  nurses  were  cooking  eggs. 

0.  What  did  he  say  ?  A.  He  thanked  me  for  telling  him.  At  my 
request  he  promised  not  to  reveal  his  source  of  information,  because 
it  would  be  unpleasant  for  me. 

Q.  Did  the  cooking  of  eggs  stop  ?  A.  It  did  not.  I  will  add  that 
Mr.  Mitchell  told  me  that  the  nurses  told  him  that  they  were  only 
cooking  the  yellows  of  eggs  which  had  been  ordered  beaten  up  to 
give  to  patients  during  the  day,  and  he  said  he  would  rather  see  them 
eat  those  yellows  than  to  have  them  thrown  away. 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  that  nurse,  do  you  know?  A.  I  know 
the  names  of  one  or  two  on  the  ward  at  that  time. 

Q.  The  nurse  that  told  Mr.  Mitchell  that?  A.  Tidwell  and  one 
Kennedy. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  they  are  now?  A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  whether  they  are  here  or  not?  A.  I  do  not. 
I  think  Mr.  Kennedy  is,  from  the  information  that  I  got,  but  I 
don’t  know. 

Q.  Do  you  know  who  the  eggs  were  intended  for?  A.  For  the 
patients  on  ward  five. 

Q.  For  the  patients?  A.  Yes,  sir,  they  were  very  feeble,  you 
know. 

Q.  You  reported  this  to  Mr.  Mitchell?  A.  Yes,  sir,  and  he  said 
they  claimed  they  were  cooking  the  yolks,  and  that  is  what  the 


57 


patients  did  not  eat.  They  claimed  that  they  ate  the  yolks  and  that 
the  whites  were  given  to  the  invalid  patients. 

Q.  To  the  invalid  patients?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  the  invalid  patients  receive  pretty  good  care?  A.  Some¬ 
times.  I  don’t  know  that  I  can  speak  with  authority  about  that, 
because  I  was  not  on  the  ward,  on  the  fifth  ward,  and  I  only 
occasionally  went  there.  I  know  a  paralytic  who  was  neglected  by 
the  ward  nurses. 

Q.  Who  was  he?  A.  - . 

Q.  How  was  he  neglected?  A.  I  went  over  there  one  Sunday 
after  twelve  o’clock.  He  was  paralyzed  from  the  waist  down,  and 
could  not  hold  his  water,  and  I  found  his  bed  at  that  hour  wet,  and 
he  was  lying  as  far  as  he  could  over  on  the  side.  The  nurse  had 
let  him  lie  in  that  condition,  and  with  tears  in  his  eyes,  he  pleaded 
for  assistance. 

Q.  Did  you  make  any  report  of  that  ?  A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  Why  ?  A.  It  was  an  unpleasant  thing  to  do,  and  then  ordina¬ 
rily  one  did  not  know  whether  it  would  get  him  into  trouble  or 
not. 

Q.  Did  it  ever  get  you  into  trouble,  those  you  did  make?  A.  One 
of  the  nurses  on  the  fifth  ward,  although  Mr.  Mitchell  had  not 
revealed  his  source  of  information,  thought  it  was  I  who  had 
reported  him,  and  as  I  was  coming  through  from  somewhere  else, 
he  very  roughly  hurried  me  away. 

Q.  He  is  one  of  the  nurses?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  was  he?  A.  Tidwell,  and  ever  afterwards  he  showed 
his  dislike  of  me. 

Q.  Was  that  your  object  for  not  making  reports,  because  you 
thought  it  would  get  you  into  trouble?  A.  To  be  frank,  I  didn’t 
report  because  I  did  not  know  it  would  be  any  use.  I  would  proba¬ 
bly  only  get  myself  into  trouble. 

0.  You  say  you  got  a  square  deal  from  Mr.  Mitchell?  A.  Per¬ 
sonally. 

Q.  Was  there  anybody  else  you  didn’t  get  a  square  deal  from? 
A.  I  would  like  for  you  to  be  more  specifiic  on  that  question. 

Q.  You  are  the  man  to  specifiy.  If  anybody  mistreated  you,  I 
would  like  to  know  it?  A.  You  want  to  define  mistreatment. 

Q.  I  will  let  you  define  it.  In  anything  you  don’t  consider  you  got 
a  square  deal,  in  your  own  way  tell  about  it,  and  when  it  was.  You 
are  at  liberty  to  do  that  without  my  asking  specifically?  A.  Before 
answering  that  question  it  will  be  necessary  for  me  to  state  what  I 


58 


consider  a  square  deal.  My  idea  of  a  square  deal  to  a  patient  in 
here  is  that  everything  possible  should  be  done  to  hasten  his  recovery, 
and  that  every  possible  effort  within  reason  should  be  made  by  those 
in  charge  to  speed  his  discharge,  and  I  don’t  consider  1  got  a  square 
deal  or  the  others  on  that  line.  It  is  very  hard  to  answer  that 
without  giving  my  particular  experience  in  detail. 

Q.  I  will  give  you  that  chance.  What  efforts  were  made  to  hasten 
your  recovery?  A.  I  don’t  know  of  any.  I  want  to  say  that  Dr. 
Thompson,  to  my  knowledge,  did  everything  he  could  to  help  me. 

Q.  To  help  you?  A.  He  did.  But  there  was  no  treatment,  and 
I  think  he  will  bear  me  out  in  saying  there  was  no  treatment,  that  1 
received  no  treatment. 

Q.  No  medical  treatment?  A.  No  medical  treatment. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  reason  why?  A.  I  don’t  know.  But  the 
institution  where  I  was  before  I  came  here  I  received  electricity  and 
baths  and  things  of  that  kind. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  physical  trouble  with  your  mental  condition? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  No  physical  trouble?  A.  Not  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  No  physical  trouble  to  be  treated  physically?  A.  No.  Dr. 
Thompson  always  prescribed  if  I  got  sick  at  all.  Once  or  twice  I 
had  a  cold  and  a  sprain  and  he  looked  after  me  carefully. 

Q.  He  was  kind  and  attentive?  A.  Very  indeed,  to  me. 

Q.  And  the  other  patients?  A.  Yes,  sir;  as  far  as  I  could  see. 
Dr.  Thompson  was  very  kind. 

Q.  Was  he  regular  in  making  his  rounds  of  the  wards?  A.  Very. 

Q.  How  often?  A.  Dr.  Thompson  came  around  twice  a  day, 
Sunday  included. 

Q.  Morning  and  afternoon?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Did  he  make  a  close  inspection  ?  A.  I  think  he  did.  He  went 
over  every  ward  and  saw  as  many  patients  as  wanted  to  see  him,  but 
I  don’t  think  he  had  time  to  see  them  as  much  as  he  wished  to  see 
them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many  were  under  his  supervision  ?  A.  The 
whole  white  male  department  there  was  assigned  to  him. 

Q.  Six  or  seven  hundred  of  them?  A.  No,  sir,  I  don’t  think 
that  many.  I  don’t  know  the  number. 

Q.  Two  or  three  hundred  white  male  patients?  A.  The  authori¬ 
ties  can  give  you  the  number  better  than  I  can. 

Q.  I  am  not  asking  for  exact  figures.  You  were  among  them? 
A.  There  were  ten  wards  of  them  and  the  Taylor  building  besides. 


59 


Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  any  complaint  among  the  patients  on  these 
different  wards  against  Dr.  Thompson?  A.  Well,  sometimes  there 
would  be  patients  who  were  not  satisfied,  but  the  general  feeling 
towards  Dr.  Thompson  was  one  of  the  greatest  respect. 

Q.  On  the  part  of  all  the  patients?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  any  act  of  absolute  mistreatment  or  anything  of  that 
kind  connected  with  him?  A.  None  at  all.  I  never  saw  any.  No, 
sir.  I  never  saw  him  mistreat  any  patient. 

Q.  Was  it  a  custom  in  there  when  a  patient  was  sick  to  communi¬ 
cate  with  Dr.  Thompson  officially,  was  that  a  rule?  A.  The  idea 
was,  I  think,  that  he  would  try  to  get  the  nurses  to  see  if  it  was 
serious  enough  to  report  to  the  doctor,  and  if  it  was  serious  enough 
he  would  come  in. 

Q.  The  treatment  he  gave  you  was  satisfactory  to  you  ?  A.  In 
connection  with  the  little  indispositions  and  the  sprain  ? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  Entirely  so. 

Q.  Where  were  the  medicines  kept  that  were  given  to  the  patients  ? 
A.  In  the  medicine  room. 

Q.  Who  is  in  charge  of  that,  Dr.  Thompson,  on  the  wards  ?  A. 
The  medicine  room  is  in  charge  of  the  nurses. 

Q.  That  is  the  one  on  the  wards?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  nurses  give  the  medicines?  A.  Yes,  sir,  they  are  sup¬ 
posed  to  do  it. 

Q.  Dr.  Thompson  prescribed?  A.  Yes,  sir,  and  the  nurses  gave 
the  medicines. 

Q.  The  nurses  were  pretty  faithful  in  that?  A.  Well,  not  always. 
Sometimes  they  were  fair.  I  have  heard  the  patients  complain  of 
the  nurses  forgetting. 

Q.  Was  that  room  kept  pretty  nice?  A.  The  medicine  room? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  Sometimes  it  was  just  the  opposite. 

Q.  When  it  was  the  opposite,  what  was  its  condition?  A.  Very 
dirty  then.  As  far  as  that  is  concerned  the  vessels  out  of  which  we 
took  the  medicines  was  rather  uninviting.  For  instance,  the  jar  in 
which  the  water  was  kept  on  the  second  ward  was  positively  indecent, 
it  was  so  dirty.  The  dirt  must  have  been  on  the  outside. 

Q.  That  the  medicine  was  put  into?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  was  kept  in  bottles?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  medicine  used  much  on  patients  in  there,  or  just  occa¬ 
sionally?  A.  Well,  I  think  whenever  the  patient  required  it  Dr. 
Thompson  prescribed,  and  it  was  given  according  to  his  prescription. 

Q.  During  your  entire  stay  here  you  never  heard  any  complaint 


6o 


against  Dr.  Thompson?  A.  As  I  have  stated,  I  have  heard  patients 
complain  against  Dr.  Thompson,  but  it  was  usually  persons  who  were 
not  themselves,  and  who,  when  they  got  to  be  themselves,  spoke 
kindly  of  him. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  patient  ever  being  fed  with  a  tube  on  the 
wards?  A.  There  was  one  man  fed  with  a  tube,  but  I  did  not  see 
him. 

Q.  You  know  he  was?  A.  My  information  is  that  it  was  Mr. 
Bean. 

Q.  Do  you  know  why  that  was  ?  A.  Because  he  would  not  eat. 

Q.  When  they  would  not  eat  that  was  the  rule,  to  feed  them  with 
that?  A.  I  think  so.  I  was  threatened  when  I  refused. 

Q.  You  were?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  But  it  was  never  used  on  you  ?  A.  I  suppose  I  ate  enough  to 
prevent  it.  I  ate  very  little  for  a  while,  and  it  was  only  used  as  I 
understand  in  extreme  cases. 

Q.  When  a  patient  will  not  eat  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  only  know  of  that  one  instance  ?  A.  That  is  my  only 
knowledge  of  such  a  thing.  That  happened  on  the  second  ward. 

Q.  As  a  general  thing  in  there  are  they  good  eaters?  A.  No.  I 
don’t  know.  That  depends.  Some  don’t  eat  much  and  some  do. 
To  say  that  all  are  good  eaters  would  be  to  make  the  statement  too 
broad. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  any  abuse  of  the  patients  by  any  of 
these  attendants?  A.  Verbal  abuse? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  Yes,  I  have  heard  that.  I  was  playing  cards  one 

evening  with  two  patients  and  a  Mr. - ,  and  it  was  during  that 

time  Mr. - broke  a  rule.  He  was  smoking  in  the  alcove.  You 

are  only  allowed  to  smoke  on  the  veranda.  The  nurse  abused  him 
heavily,  so  much  so  that  I  went  myself  and  tried  to  quiet  it. 

Q.  Who  was  the  nurse?  A.  Stewart. 

Q.  Was  it  ever  reported  ?  A.  I  think  not.  Mr. - would  not 

report  anything  unless  the  provocation  was  extreme. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  the  abuse  was  for?  A.  For  breaking  the 
rule. 

Q.  What  rule?  A.  That  there  was  not  to  be  any  smoking  except 
on  the  veranda. 

Q.  And  he  was  smoking  in  a  room?  A.  He  was  smoking  in  the 
alcove  which  the  second  ward  has  in  the  middle. 

Q.  Did  he  request  him  to  quit  before  he  abused  him?  A.  He 


6i 


came  for  him  and  without  requesting  him  to  quit,  lit  right  into  him. 
I  asked  him  to  stop. 

Q.  Did  he  speak  harshly  to  him  ?  A.  Very. 

Q.  Any  other  instance?  A.  Well,  there  was  a  nurse  that  has 
spoken  to  me  in  a  way  to  get  me  pretty  hard  up.  The  exact  words 
I  don’t  remember,  but  he  was  very  much  disliked — that  nurse  was — 
and  everybody  considered  that  he  was  a  hard  man  to  get  on  with. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  became  of  him  ?  A.  I  don’t  know.  He 
was  there  when  I  left,  according  to  my  knowledge.  This  same  nurse 
once,  to  show  his  attitude,  there  was  a  Presbyterian  minister  who 
was  in  here,  and  the  nurse  knew  his  name,  Mr.  Henderson  was  his 
name,  and  he  protested  against  the  nurse  calling  him  “old  man.” 
He  would  say,  “get  up,  old  man,  and  take  your  medicine.”  That 
was  his  style. 

Q.  In  bad  weather — winter — how  was  the  heating  apparatus, 
pretty  good?  Did  they  keep  you  warm  in  there?  A.  I  think  pretty 
fair. 

Q.  No  complaints  along  that  line?  A.  No,  the  heating  was  very 
good. 

Q.  The  drinking  water?  A.  Good,  I  believe. 

Q.  City  water?  A.  City  water  is  used  on  the  wards,  and  for  a 
while  they  used  well  water,  but  by  the  board’s  orders,  I  understood, 
that  was  stopped. 

Q.  What  amusements  were  afforded  the  patients  ?  A.  The  only 
amusements  the  State  recognized  were  cards  and  weekly  dances. 

Q.  Weekly  dances?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  is  that  held  ?  What  part  of  the  week ?  A.  I  don’t  know. 

Q.  Tuesday  night?  A.  Tuesday  night  was  what  I  had  in  mind. 
That  is  the  night,  I  suppose. 

Q.  Who  attends  those  dances?  A.  Well,  as  many  patients  as  wish 
to  go  and  whom  the  doctor  will  permit. 

Q.  Both  male  and  female?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  attend  those  dances?  A.  The  first  time  I  was  there 
I  attended  a  few,  and  the  second  time  I  attended  a  few. 

Q.  Who  was  in  charge  there?  Who  overlooked  them  while  in 
there?  A.  The  lady  physician  was  there  during  this  last  time,  and 
I  think  Dr.  Thompson  is  always  there,  and  I  am  not  sure,  but,  I 
think,  Dr.  Mitchell  is  always  there. 

Q.  How  long  did  those  dances  usually  last  ?  A.  I  think  they  broke 
up  about  half  past  eight,  somewhere  between  an  hour  and  an  hour 
and  a  half,  may  be  longer.  I  may  be  underestimating  that. 


62 


Q.  Do  the  patients  enjoy  them?  A.  I  think  all  who  went  went 
there  because  they  enjoyed  going. 

Q.  Nobody  was  required  to  go?  A.  None  required  to  go. 

Q.  Were  there  any  other  amusements  that  you  know  of  that  were 
favored?  A.  There  were  no  amusements,  as  I  say,  that  were  con¬ 
tributed  by  the  State  except  card  playing  and  the  ball,  but  some  of 
the  patients  bought  themselves  checkers. 

Q.  Checkers?  A.  Or  made  them  themselves  checkers,  and  with 
Dr.  Thompson’s  assistance  we  got  ball  playing  on  the  outside,  sup¬ 
ported  principally  bv  contributions  from  the  patients,  and  by  a  large 
contribution  from  Charleston.  We  got  that  along  last  summer. 

Q.  Last  summer?  A.  Yes,  sir,  and  the  summer  before,  a  small 
one. 

Q.  Where  did  you  play?  A.  Out  here  in  the  front  yard. 

Q.  Did  the  patients  seem  to  enjoy  it?  A.  Those  who  took  part 
in  it  very  much,  and  it  benefited  several,  myself  included. 

Q.  Was  there  any  objection  to  that  by  the  authorities?  Were 
they  willing  for  the  amusement  to  go  on?  A.  I  think  they  were 
willing  always,  sir. 

Q.  You  never  heard  any  objection?  A.  I  never  heard  any  objec¬ 
tion.  At  first  we  got  permission  to  get  a  bat  and  ball,  and  after  that 
with  Dr.  Thompson’s  assistance  and  other  contributions  we  got  our 
outfit.  I  ought  to  state  that  Mr.  Gibbes,  of  the  Columbia  Baseball 
Club,  made  contributions  to  the  baseball  by  sending  the  balls  that 
the  club  had  finished  with. 

Q.  How  long  was  that  kept  up?  A.  That  gift? 

Q.  This  ball?  A.  Well,  it  was  going  on  when  I  left  in  October. 

Q.  Summer  is  the  main  season?  A.  Yes,  but  they  played  right 
along  until  I  left.  In  fact,  after  I  left  it  was  warm  enough  to  play. 

Q.  What  was  the  rule  while  you  were  there  about  allowing 
patients  to  go  out  into  the  grounds  for  the  purpose  of  recreation 
and  amusement?  A.  Certain  patients  were  allowed  to  go  out  into 
the  front  yard,  this  yard  here.  Certain  others  were  allowed  to  go 
into  the  back  yard.  The  ones  that  were  allowed  to  go  into  the  front 
yard  were  supposed  to  be  patients  who  were  able  to  conduct  them¬ 
selves  in  an  orderly  way  and  keep  themselves  in  a  more  presentable 
way. 

Q.  That  privilege  was  allowed  to  those  who  would  behave  them¬ 
selves?  A.  They  went  out  under  the  supervision  of  the  nurses. 

Q.  They  seemed  to  enjoy  roaming  around  the  grounds?  A.  Yes, 


63 

sir.  I  don’t  know  that  enjoy  would  be  the  proper  word.  They  pass 
the  time  away. 

Q.  It  seemed  to  help  them?  They  seemed  to  get  along  better? 
A.  I  don’t  know  that  I  saw  any  particular  case  where  that  helped, 
just  roaming  around.  There  were  a  good  many  patients  who  wanted 
to  go  out  every  day. 

Q.  Were  you. ever  obstructed  in  your  wishes  to  go  out?  A.  To 
the  front  yard? 

Q.  Or  anywhere  else?  A.  You  mean  outside  of  the  buildings 
into  the  city  ? 

Q.  Were  you  allowed  to  go  into  the  city?  A.  I  did  not  want  to 
go,  and  I  went.  I  only  went  with  my  father  to  a  baseball  game.  On 
my  way  back  we  met  Dr.  Babcock,  and  he  suggested  that  I  go  out 
twice  a  week  to  see  the  games,  as  he  thought  it  would  do  me  good. 

Q.  That  was  Dr.  Babcock  ?  A.  That  was  his  suggestion,  and  I 
asked  the  doctor  if  he  would  be  willing  and  he  said  yes,  if  I  would 
not  bring  anything  into  the  building,  and  we  made  that  agreement, 
but  I  never  heard  any  more  about  it  until  I  asked  myself  to  go. 

Q.  What  did  he  say?  A.  Then  I  was  allowed  to  go. 

Q.  You  were  allowed  to  go?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  did  go  by  yourself?  A.  Well,  yes,  sir,  that  year,  and 
then  the  next  year  I  requested  to  be  allowed  to  go,  and  several 
others  at  the  same  time,  and  we  went  several  times,  and  then  once 
or  twice  I  went  by  myself. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  about  the  employment  of  patients  in  the 
institution  ?  A.  The  employment  of  patients  ?  Most  of  the  inside 
work  is  done  by  patients,  but  about  patients  employed  on  the  outside 
I  know  very  little. 

O.  Those  that  are  on  the  inside,  most  of  them  get  some  kind 
of  light  employment?  A.  If  a  man  wants  to  work  I  think  they  can 
usually  find  work  for  him. 

Q.  Do  they  prefer  work,  many  of  them  ?  A.  Some  do  not.  It  is 
very  much  against  the  wishes  of  some  to  work  and  they  will  not 
work. 

Q.  How  did  you  consider  that  question?  A.  With  me  it  was  a 
matter  of  how  I  felt  principally.  I  did  not  do  much  work  towards 
the  end.  It  was  a  question  about  how  I  felt.  For  a  long  time  I  was 
in  such  a  condition  that  I  had  to  seek  some  kind  of  diversion,  and 

after  I  began  to  get  better  Mr.  -  and  myself  had  charge  of 

distributing  the  laundry,  and  I  undertook  to  do  all  the  marking  for 


64 


the  ward  with  indelible  ink,  after  a  while.  That  was  after  I  got  to 
feeling  better. 

Q.  Did  you  get  on  better  with  that  light  employment  than  with¬ 
out  it  ?  A.  I  could  not  see  that  there  was  any  difference.  It  was 
just  that  I  was  getting  better,  and  wanted  a  little  more  to  employ 
my  time  than  I  had  before. 

Q.  You  seem  to  be  entirely  restored  now?  A.  I  hope  so. 

Q.  You  feel  no  signs  of  the  old  trouble?  A.  I  don’t  feel  any.  I 
have  to  be  very  careful  with  myself. 

Q.  Your  mind  is  clear?  A.  Perfectly  clear. 

Q.  You  attribute  your  recovery  to  your  stay  here?  A.  The  only 
thing  they  did  for  me  was  restraint  and  baseball. 

Q.  And  restraint?  A.  The  restraint  and  the  baseball. 

Q.  And  confinement?  A.  The  fact  was  I  had  to  be  confined.  I 
had  certain  inclinations  that  were  abnormal. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  inclination  to  do  harm  to  anybody?  A. 
Not,  as  I  said  before,  I  never  had  any  inclination  at  any  time  to  do 
harm  for  harm’s  sake. 

Q.  You  thought  that  you  were  commanded  to  do  things?  A.  The 
first  time  I  was  here  I  thought  I  was  commanded,  as  I  said,  and 
once  I  felt  that  I  was  commanded  to  go  up  and  take  a  man  by  the 
throat,  but  I  did  it  very  unwillingly. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  have  any  desire  to  harm  yourself?  A.  On  my 
first  trip  down  from  Philadelphia  I  felt  that  I  was  lost  forever,  and 
felt  that  I  could  save  myself  possibly  by  throwing  myself  from  the 
train,  and  I  made  my  way  back  to  the  rear  end  in  spite  of  the  efforts 
of  mv  brother  to  turn  me  (the  conductor  was  out  of  reach),  and  I 
was  finally  restrained.  I  could  have  done  it,  but  I  was  restrained 
by  the  thought  that  I  did  not  want  to  leave  my  brother,  and  that  I 
cared  for  him.  I  did  not  want  to  leave  him.  I  think  I  can  safely 
say  I  never  got  to  the  point  where  I  could  take  my  life. 

Q.  That  was  on  your  way  to  the  institution?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  never  had  the  desire  while  here?  A.  No,  sir.  I  never 
made  any  attempt  to  take  my  life.  There  was  one  thing  I  did  that 
the  attendants  thought  was  an  attempt  to  take  my  life,  but  it  was 
not.  I  remember  being,  as  I  thought,  compelled  to  fall  backwards 
off  the  bed  on  the  floor,  but  I  never  got  up  courage  to  do  it,  but  I 
felt  my  eternal  salvation  depended  on  it,  and  they  thought  I  was 
trying  to  harm  myself. 

Q.  When  you  felt  that  you  were  restored,  did  you  have  any 


65 


difficulty  in  getting  out  of  here?  A.  I  did  not  get  out  as  soon  as 
I  wanted  to. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  reason  ?  A.  The  doctor  advised  against  it,  I 
believe. 

Q.  What  doctor?  A.  Dr.  Babcock,  I  was  told,  advised  against  it. 

Q.  How  long  did  they  keep  you  after  you  thought  you  ought  to 
get  out?  A.  I  think  about  a  month. 

Q.  One  month?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  rule,  I  believe,  is  that  the  Board  of  Regents  discharges  ? 
A.  I  do  not  know  about  that,  sir.  I  have  seen  patients  leave  in  the 
middle  of  the  month.  I  did  not  leave  right  after  the  meeting  of  the 
Board  of  Regents,  the  second  time. 

Q.  Who  interested  themselves  in  getting  you  out — your  folks  at 
home?  A.  The  first  time? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  I  wrote  to  my  brother,  and  he  answered  me  in  a  way 
that  I  thought  was  rather  cold.  He  afterwards  explained  to  me  that 
he  would  have  to  be  cautious,  and  he  immediately  came  with  an 

uncle.  They  interested  themselves  in  looking  after  me.  Dr. - 

and  my  brother  came  down  to  see  me. 

Q.  What  was  done?  A.  They  told  me  that  Dr.  Babcock  advised 
that  I  stay  until  January,  but  they  somehow  or  other;  by  signing 
papers,  got  me  out  by  the  23rd  of  November,  or  about  that  time. 
That  is  the  time  I  have  in  my  mind.  It  was  near  the  end  of  Novem¬ 
ber.  I  felt  myself  at  that  time.  It  was  very  urgent  for  me  to  get 
out.  I  wanted  a  change  of  occupation,  and  the  effect  was  at  once 
apparent. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  stay  out  that  time?  A.  Five  years. 

Q.  Did  you  get  a  full  discharge  at  that  time,  or  leave  on  parol  or 
something  like  that?  A.  That  is  something  that  the  physicians  will 
have  to  tell  you.  All  that  I  know  is  that  two  of  my  uncles  signed 
papers. 

Q.  When  you  came  back  the  second  time,  were  you  in  as  bad  a 
fix  as  at  first?  A.  The  doctors  thought  not.  Dr.  Thompson  thought 
not. 

Q.  But  you  staid  longer?  A.  I  staid  longer. 

Q.  Was  there  any  trouble  about  your  getting  out  the  last  time? 
A.  The  last  time  Dr.  Thompson  was  away  when  I  first  made  the 
move,  and  as  soon  as  he  came  back  I  got  out.  But  my  brother  made 
some  inquiry.  I  did  not  learn  anything  until  Dr.  Thompson  came 
back. 


5 — A. 


66 


Q.  Where  was  your  brother  living?  A.  In  Marion.  He  was 
a  physician. 

Q.  Have  you  been  living  in  Charleston  since  you  got  out?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  instances  here  where  men  were  held  that 

you  thought  ought  to  be  let  out?  A.  I  do.  I  thought  Mr.  - 

was  held  after  he  ought  to  have  gone. 

Q.  From  Abbeville?  A.  Mr. - ,  and  furthermore,  there  was 

a  man,  a  Mr.  - ,  in  here  when  I  left.  I  did  not  see  anything 

strange  about  his  conduct. 

Q.  Where  is  he  from?  A.  I  think  he  is  from  Marlboro,  but  I  am 
not  sure. 

Q.  Are  those  the  only  instances  that  occur  to  you?  A.  Well,  if 
it  is  the  duty  of  the  Regents  to  discharge  when  patients  are  restored, 
no  matter  whether  he  makes  the  request  or  not,  I  have  seen  one  or 
two  instances  where  I  thought  a  patient  was  entitled  to  a  discharge. 
One  is  Mr.  - . 

Q.  Where  is  he  from?  A.  Charleston. 

Q.  Is  he  in  here  now?  A.  I  think  I  saw  him  this  morning.  Mr. 

- and  Mr.  Thompson  told  me.  He  said  his  mind  was  weakened 

permanently. 

Q.  Those  are  the  only  instances  that  occur  to  you  where  you 
think  parties  ought  to  get  out  ?  A.  I  can’t  say  that  either. 

Q.  Can  you  specify  any  others?  A.  There  are  a  good  many  that 
I  can  remember  the  faces  of  that  you  could  secure  their  release. 

Q.  They  all  want  to  get  out,  then,  don’t  they,  as  a  rule  ?  A.  They 
want  to  get  out? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  If  you  will  let  me  mention  my  own  case,  I  did  not. 
I  realized  I  was  in  the  right  place. 

Q.  Most  of  them  do  that?  A.  I  think  so. 

Q.  They  think  they  are  imprisoned  and  want  to  get  out  ?  A.  They 
want  to  get  out,  I  think. 

Q.  A  good  many  want  to  get  out  who  ought  not  to  be  out?  A. 
Absolutely  yes,  I  answer  to  that,  sir.  I  am  not  a  doctor.  I  want  to 
make  the  record  clear  that  this  is  only  the  opinion  of  an  observer 
on  this  thing.  I  do  not  propose  to  pass  judgment. 

Q.  It  is  charged  that  there  are  men  in  here  who  ought  not  to  be 

here?  A.  I  did  feel  in  Mr.  - ’s  case,  that  it  was  a  very  clear 

case  of  a  man  whose  relatives  ought  to  have  been  forced  to  take  him. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whose  fault  it  was?  A.  No,  sir,  I  do  not.  I 


67 

know  he  wrote  to  Dr.  Babcock.  I  don’t  want  to  mention  the  doctor 
unless  he  was  in  here. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  effort  the  people  of  Mr.  - had  made 

as  to  his  discharge?  A.  I  don’t  know.  I  know  he  told  me  he 
thought  that  his  father-in-law  was  at  the  bottom  of  his  staying 
here,  being  held  in  here. 

Q.  His  father-in-law?  A.  That  is  what  I  understood  from  Mr. 
- ,  that  he  was  responsible  for  his  being  kept. 

Q.  You  made  up  your  mind  from  your  observation  of  Mr. - 

that  he  ought  to  have  been  discharged?  A.  I  did. 

Q.  Was  he  here  when  you  came  or  did  he  come  afterwards?  A. 
I  think  he  was  here  when  I  came.  The  first  time  I  saw  him  was  a 
very  little  time  after  I  came. 

Q.  Was  he  here  after  you  left  first?  A.  The  second  time. 

Q.  Do  you  know  when  he  got  out?  A.  He  got  out  just  after  I 
left.  That  is  my  recollection.  He  wrote  me  a  letter  saying  that 
he  was  at  home.  He  got  out  after  I  left. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  mistreatment  Mr.  -  received  ?  A. 

Mistreatment  ? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  I  don’t  know  of  any.  That  is  the  only  kick  which  I 
have  been  aware  of. 

Q.  No  other  kick  except  the  fact  that  he  ought  to  have  been 
discharged  ?  A.  That  is  another  thing  that  I  would  like  for  you  to 
ask  when  the  Superintendent  is  here. 

Q.  How  about  Mr.  Mitchell?  Did  you  see  much  of  him  while  you 
were  in  here?  A.  I  saw  him  off  and  on  regularly.  He  was  open 
to  see  anybody.  You  knocked  on  the  door  and  he  was  usually  willing 
to  give  you  a  hearing. 

Q.  What  was  his  disposition  towards  the  patients  ?  A.  I  thought 
it  was  correct. 

Q.  Kind?  A.  He  had  the  reputation  of  being  brusque. 

Q.  Kind  and  humane?  A.  So  far  as  I  know.  I  can  say  that  he 
gave  me  a  square  deal  personally. 

Q.  Did  the  patients  generally  seem  to  like  him?  A.  That  is  a 
question  that  depends  on  the  man.  Some  disliked  his  manner  and 
some  saw  further  into  the  man. 

Q.  Beyond  his  manner,  did  you  see  anything  on  the  part  of 
Supervisor  Mitchell  that  you  thought  unjust  to  a  patient?  A. 
There  is  one  instance  that  I  cannot  recollect  that  I  have  in  mind. 
The  details  of  it  are  gone.  I  can't  recollect  it.  It  may  come  to  me. 


68 


I  have  a  very  clear  recollection  of  the  time  I  told  him  I  thought  he 
had  been  very  hard  on  a  patient. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  when  you  told  him  that?  A.  I  don’t  remem¬ 
ber  anything  except  that  I  know  the  occasion  of  it.  He  either 
oppressed  or  had  been  hard  on  a  patient. 

Q.  One  occasion  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  patient?  A.  Now  I  do.  The  whole 

thing  comes  to  me  now.  It  was  a  fellow  named  - .  He  was 

on  the  front  yard  and  suddenly  became  violent.  He  was  playing 
a  game  of  baseball,  and  he  began  to  talk  loud,  and  some  of  his 
friends  got  around  him,  and  some  of  the  nurses  started  to  bring 
him  in,  and  he  said  he  would  be  quiet,  and  one  of  the  nurses,  as  he 
was  leaving  this  man  who  had  promised  to  be  quiet,  said,  if  you 
don’t  we  will  put  straps  on  you,  and  to  say  you  would  put  straps 
on  that  patient  would  always  make  him  wild  at  once.  I  don’t  know 
why  it  would  do  that,  but  that  patient  had  that  peculiarity.  If  you 
mentioned  straps  to  him  or  said  you  would  put  him  in  restraint  he 
went  wild.  Right  after  that  I  think  the  nurses  brought  him  in  and 
he  was  banished  to  the  Taylor  building. 

Q.  Whose  fault  was  it?  A.  I  thought  it  was  the  nurse’s  fault. 

Q.  The  nurse  was  the  cause  of  his  being  put  in  the  Taylor  build¬ 
ing?  A.  He  had  just  been  in  there. 

Q.  He  was  put  back  in  there?  A.  Yes,  sir.  There  was  a  little 
trouble  preceding  that,  too.  This  patient  had  begun  to  talk  loud  on 
the  ward  in  the  room  where  he  was  sleeping.  Some  of  the  patients 
complained  about  it  to  Mr.  Mitchell,  and  Mr.  Mitchell  told  him  he 
would  have  to  stop,  and  the  next  thing  when  there  was  some  dis¬ 
cussion,  the  threat  was  made  to  put  straps  on  him,  and  he  began 
to  fight  at  once.  He  was  banished  to  the  Taylor  building  for  that. 
After  he  had  staid  there  a  while  he  was  allowed  to  come  back.  He 
had  quieted  down  and  this  other  thing  on  the  front  yard  happened 
after  that.  I  considered  that  in  that  case,  after  I  told  Mr.  Mitchell, 
I  thought  he  ought  to  have  had  the  matter  investigated,  to  be  sure 
that  the  inmates  were  not  mistreated  on  the  wards. 

Q.  Is  that  the  only  instance  you  ever  saw  on  the  part  of  Mr. 
Mitchell  ?  A.  That  is  all  I  have  in  mind. 

Q.  All  you  can  recollect?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  don’t  know  that  I 
have  made  that  as  clear  as  I  would  like,  because  it  has  come  to  me 
on  the  spur  of  the  moment. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  anything  else?  A.  I  do,  of  the  conduct  of 
Attendant  Munnerlyn. 


69 


Q.  What  do  you  know  of  any  mistreatment  on  his  part?  A.  He 
was  kind  to  patients,  but  he  took  a  whole  turkey  and  put  it  away 
last  Christmas  in  his  drawer. 

Q.  Whose  turkey?  A.  The  State’s  turkey. 

Q.  Where  did  he  get  the  turkey?  A.  Off  the  fifth  ward,  so  far 
as  our  information  went. 

Q.  Was  the  turkey  cooked?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  he  do  with  it?  A.  He  told  me  he  had  a  piece  of 
turkey,  and  that  he  was  going  to  give  me  a  piece,  and  he  cut  off  a 
slice  and  gave  it  to  me. 

Q.  Did  you  see  where  he  got  the  turkey?  A.  I  did  not  ask  him, 
but  there  was  only  one  place  he  could  have  gotten  it,  and  that  was 
on  the  fifth  ward,  and  he  was  a  nurse  on  the  fifth  ward. 

Q.  Why  was  the  turkey  sent  there?  Were  the  meals  served 
there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  he  had  a  whole  turkey?  A.  He  did. 

Q.  Night  or  day?  A.  This  was  at  night  when  he  took  me  over 
and  cut  me  off  a  piece. 

Q.  What  did  he  do  with  the  rest  of  the  turkey?  A.  I  never  saw. 
He  put  it  away  in  his  drawer. 

Q.  Was  that  matter  ever  brought  to  the  attention  of  any  of  the 
authorities?  A.  It  was  not,  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  Did  any  other  patient  get  any  of  it  besides  yourself?  A.  No, 
sir,  not  that  I  know  of.  It  is  but  fair  to  say  that  Mr.  Munnerlyn 
was  afterwards  discharged. 

Q.  Was  any  ground  meat  served  on  the  fifth  ward?  A.  That 
was  the  way  it  was  always  served — beef.  Will  you  let  me  correct 
just  one  minute.  I  did  not  mention  that  beef  was  served  in  the  little 
pay  room  two  days  in  the  week. 

Q.  For  dinner?  A.  For  dinner. 

Q.  How  was  it  prepared  ?  A.  Boiled. 

Q.  Was  it  palatable?  A.  Sometimes  it  was  good  and  sometimes 
it  was  not.  I  thought  on  the  whole  there  could  not  be  any  complaint 
except  that  the  beef  was  cooked  in  that  way.  Cooked  in  that  way 
it  is  hardly  ever  palatable  to  the  taste. 

Q.  How  did  the  beef  the  first  and  second  time  you  were  there 
compare  ?  A.  I  don’t  know  that  I  could  say  that  I  have  any  definite 
recollection. 

Q.  You  don’t  remember  whether  it  was  better  the  second  time 
or  not?  A.  I  do  not, 

Q.  About  the  ground  meat,  how  was  it  served  ?  A.  The  meat  on 


70 


the  fifth  ward  was  always  ground  up,  because  the  patients  are  sup¬ 
posed  to  be  unable  to  eat  it  unless  it  is. 

Q.  Go  ahead.  A.  Do  you  want  me  to  describe  the  whole  process? 

Q.  If  you  can.  A.  It  is  brought  up  on  a  dumb  waiter  and  then 
is  fed  to  the  cutter  with  the  hands  by  patients  or  nurses  or  both. 
There  are  generally  the  nurses  of  several  wards  on  hand  at  that 
time,  and  there  is  no  effort  to  have  the  hands  clean  beforehand,  so 
much  so  that  patients  on  that  ward  warned  me  when  I  got  a  little 
of  that  against  eating  it,  and  I  saw  for  myself. 

Q.  So,  this  is  the  process  you  mean?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  eat  any  of  that  meat  ?  A.  I  did  not  eat  any  after 
that. 

Q.  You  did  before?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  class  of  patients  did  they  give  it  to?  A.  Invalid 
patients  on  that  ward  who  could  not  eat  meat  at  all.  The  fifth  ward 
is  the  invalid  ward. 

Q.  The  purpose  of  that  was  to  keep  patients  from  eating  lumps 
of  rough  beef?  They  can  swallow  it  better  when  it  is  cut  up?  A. 
To  a  layman  it  looks  like  it  is  because  they  can’t  digest  the  other 
meat,  but  the  doctors  can  tell,  I  suppose,  whatever  the  reason  is. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  see  of  Dr.  Babcock  while  you  were  here? 
A.  I  saw  very  little  of  him. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  department  of  the  institution  he  gives 
his  personal  attention  to  medically?  A.  On  information,  he 
gives  medical  attention  to  one  of  the  ladies  departments — on  that 
ward.  This  is  only  hearsay. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  for  a  fact?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Dr.  Thompson  had  charge  of  the  male  wards?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  doctor  in  there?  A.  Dr.  Thompson? 

Q.  Dr.  Babcock?  A.  I  saw  him  in  there  rarely,  occasionally. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  the  rule  there  is  in  regard  to  going  into 
wards  outside  of  his  own  ?  A.  I  don’t  know.  Apparently  it  is  only 
when  there  is  some  urgent  case. 

Q.  Was  that  true  when  you  saw  him  in  your  ward  ?  Was  there 
a  special  reason?  A.  I  saw  him  once  when  Dr.  Thompson  was 
away.  I  saw  him  just  as  he  went  through  a  side  door.  I  saw  him 
after  that.  My  first  stay  I  saw  him  three  times  and  my  second 
stay  I  saw  him  twice. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  personal  conference  with  him?  A.  The  only 
time  I  had  a  personal  conference  with  him  was  when  I  met  him 
coming  from  baseball,  and  when  I  was  going  away  I  thanked  him 


7 1 


for  letting  me  out.  That  was  the  second  time.  The  first  time  Dr. 
Babcock  saw  me  when  I  came  in  and  talked  my  case  over  with 
my  brother-in-law,  and  promised  to  discuss  my  case  with  me,  but 
he  did  not  keep  his  promise.  I  never  had  the  talk  with  him. 

Q.  You  never  had  any  talk  with  him  after  that?  A.  Except 
casually. 

Q.  About  your  condition?  A.  None  at  all,  sir. 

Q.  Did  any  of  your  people  ever  talk  to  Dr.  Babcock  about  your 
case  ?  A.  I  had  visitors  off  and  on,  and  I  think  whenever  any  come 
to  see  me  they  spoke  to  Dr.  Thompson,  because  he  was  usually  the 
only  man  that  could  be  found.  I  can’t  say  but  that  they  did  some¬ 
times  speak  to  Dr.  Babcock,  but  as  to  the  numbers  who  did  it,  I  can’t 
say. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  as  to  your  people  going  to  see  Dr.  Babcock? 
A.  I  can’t  be  certain  about  that.  I  know  of  relatives  who  wrote  to 
him,  but  I  don’t  know  whether  any  relatives  of  mine  talked  with  Dr. 
Babcock  about  me,  except  the  first  time. 

Q.  Were  your  relatives  satisfied  with  the  treatment  you  received 
here?  A.  Well,  comparatively,  they  were.  Absolutely,  they  were 
not.  You  had  better  let  me  put  in  a  little  matter  that  I  was  trying 
to  put  in,  and  that  is  this,  that  I  was  talking  about  the  subject  too. 
You  asked  me  with  regard  to  who  consulted  Dr.  Babcock.  I  remem¬ 
ber  that  Dr.  Epting  (?)  came  down  here  on  my  first  stay,  as  I  have 
already  stated,  and  consulted  Dr.  Babcock  about  me  and  he  advised 
me  to  stay  until  January.  That  was  the  first  time  I  was  here,  and 
that  is  the  report  of  Dr.  Epting  to  me. 

Q.  You  got  out  before  the  first  of  January?  A.  I  got  out  as 
near  as  I  can  come  at  it  about  the  last  part  of  November. 

Q.  Did  you  get  one  of  those  releases  or  a  discharge?  A.  I  have 
never  seen  it.  I  only  know  that  my  uncles  signed  a  paper  for  my 
■elease. 

Q.  For  your  release?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  I  understand  it,  you  came  here  the  second  time  at  your 
quest?  A.  I  told  my  brother  this  was  the  place  for  me. 

Q.  And  you  wrote  to  your  brother  to  bring  you?  A.  I  thought 
iwas  all  up  with  me  in  this  world  and  the  next,  and  a  man  under 
Bse  circumstances  knows  what  is  best  for  him. 

Do  you  feel  fully  restored  now?  A.  I  feel  that  I  am  away 
frn  that  matter  that  was  troubling  me  when  I  was  brought  here, 
bvl  feel  that  I  must  take  care  of  myself.  I  don’t  dare  overwork. 

Is  your  general  physical  condition  good  ?  A.  It  is,  sir.  I  have 


72 


gained  twenty-five  pounds  since  I  left  here.  I  gained  fifteen  before 
when  I  left. 

Q.  Are  you  in  any  kind  of  business?  A.  I  have  just  entertained 
a  business  proposition. 

Q.  What  kind  of  business  are  you  going  into?  A.  Is  it  necessary 
to  tell  that? 

Q.  If  you  don’t  want  to?  A.  I  don’t  care  to  put  anything  on  the 
record  that  would  embarrass  me  in  the  business. 

Q.  You  expect  to  go  into  business?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  feel  able  to  go  into  business?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  said  something  about  the  absence  of  Dr.  Babcock.  When 
was  that?  A.  His  absence  last  summer. 

Q.  How  long  was  he  absent?  A.  Some  months. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  he  was*?  A.  He  was  in  Europe  accord¬ 
ing  to  the  papers  and  the  reports. 

Q.  Did  things  go  on  better  while  Dr.  Babcock  was  away?  A. 
They  did. 

Q.  Nothing  to  complain  of?  A.  That  is  a  very  broad  question, 
in  some  respects  things  were  better,  and  in  other  respects  they  were 
the  same. 

Q.  There  was  no  material  change  in  the  way  things  were  run 
while  he  was  away  and  when  he  was  here?  A.  That  is  the  con¬ 
clusion  I  have  made — in  some  respects  better. 

Q.  In  no  respects  worse?  A.  Not  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  In  what  respects  better?  A.  Well,  there  was  much  more 
done  for  the  diversion  of  the  patients. 

Q.  Who  did  that?  A.  Dr.  Saunders  and  Dr.  Thompson. 

Q.  What  was  the  nature  of  the  diversion?  A.  They  encouraged 
much  more  outside  sport,  outdoor  amusements. 

Q.  Who  is  Dr.  Saunders — in  charge  of  the  female  department? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  and  she  was  very  much  interested. 

Q.  In  outdoor  amusements?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  was  during  the  summer  months?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  suppose  there  is  a  great  deal  more  than  that  during  the  sun¬ 
nier  months  than  during  the  winter  months?  A.  Well,  sir,  that 
true  as  to  part  of  your  question.  Dr.  Babcock  went  away  in  t! 
summer,  and  it  got  better  after  he  left  and  it  stopped  suddei' 
shortly  after  he  came  back. 

Q.  Did  he  discourage  amusements?  A.  So  far  as  we  could  fi 
by  indifference  only. 

Q.  By  indifference?  A.  By  indifference. 


73 


Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  him  say  anything  against  it?  A.  No,  sir, 
I  never  heard  him  say  anything  against  it. 

Q.  Nor  for  it?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  make  the  baseball  arrangements  at  your  own  sug¬ 
gestion,  or  did  the  doctor  have  anything  to  do  with  it?  Not  at  his 
suggestion?  A.  I  went  out  first  with  my  father  and  I  met  Dr. 
Babcock  coming  back,  and  he  made  the  suggestion  as  I  have 
explained  just  now  that  I  go  to  no  more  than  two  games  a  week. 
After  that - always  came  for  me. 

Q.  Did  he  give  any  reason  for  your  going?  A.  He  said  it  would 
do  me  good.  I  would  like  to  state  here,  in  order  that  there  may 
not  be  any  obscurity,  that  the  reason  I  say  that  baseball  was  not  so 
favored  when  Dr.  Babcock  was  here  was  because  in  his  absence  the 
lady  patients  came  over  once  a  week  and  were  present  on  the  outside 
at  the  baseball  game,  which  we  enjoyed  all  the  more  because  they 
were  present,  and  several  of  them  came  over,  which  gave  an  added 
enjoyment  to  the  whole  situation,  and  when  Dr.  Babcock  came 
back  that  was  stopped. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  he  ordered  it  stopped  ?  A.  I  do 
not. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  why?  A.  My  opinion  was  that  he  didn’t 
have  anything  to  do  with  it,  but  I  have  no  right  to  say,  but  I  merely 
know  that  it  was  stopped. 

Q.  What  time  in  the  fall  did  he  get  back?  A.  I  can’t  testify  as 
to  the  exact  time. 

Q.  In  the  fall  season  ?  A.  It  was  in  the  fall  season.  I  think  it  was 
in  September. 

Q.  Baseball  is  stopped  by  everybody  in  the  fall?  A.  Not  here. 

Q.  Not  here?  A.  Not  in  this  place. 

Q.  It  is  a  summer  game?  A.  It  is  in  a  certain  sense.  Where 
people  want  to  play  it  it  can  be  played  until  it  gets  so  cold  that 
there  is  danger  of  the  hands  being  hurt  by  the  ball. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  objection  being  presented  by  Dr.  Babcock 
to  ball  being  played?  A.  No,  sir,  I  did  not. 

Q.  Or  any  other  amusement?  A.  Well,  we  had  some  horseshoes 
at  one  time,  and  he  objected  to  this.  That  was  the  first  time  I  was 
here.  I  have  heard  of  other  things. 

Q.  He  objected  to  the  horseshoes?  A.  He  found  we  had  horse¬ 
shoes,  and  the  man  who  brought  them  told  us  he  was  put  out  with 
them  for  bringing  them,  and  it  was  stopped.  They  were  brought 
by  somebody  connected  with  the  institution. 


74 


Q.  Did  you  pitch  horseshoes  ?  A.  I  did  at  that  time. 

Q.  What  was  the  reason  stated  for  stopping  it?  A.  Considered 
dangerous. 

Q.  To  the  patients?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  were  the  horseshoes  kept,  in  the  building  or  in  the 
yard  ?  A.  I  think  they  left  them  in  the  yard.  When  the  patients 
came  in  they  would  leave  them  out  there,  and  when  they  went  out 
they  took  them. 

Q.  Were  those  horseshoes  kept  where  the  patients  could  get  hold 
of  them?  A.  Yes,  sir,  the  patients  who — 

Q.  Other  patients?  A.  No,  sir.  They  were  left  on  the  yard. 

Q.  When  you  got  through  with  them  where  were  they  left?  A. 
According  to  my  recollection  they  were  left  right  in  the  neighbor¬ 
hood  of  where  they  were  being  pitched. 

Q.  Were  these-  patients  that  pitched  the  horseshoes — were  they 
violent?  A.  No,  sir.  They  were  front  yard  patients. 

Q.  In  your  judgment  they  could  be  trusted  with  instruments  of 
that  kind  ?  A.  I  think  so,  sir.  It  looked  so  to  me.  There  never  was 
any  trouble  of  the  kind  while  we  were  using  them.  I  could  not 
see  how  they  are  as  dangerous  as  a  baseball  bat. 

Q.  If  an  insane  patient  were  to  get  hold  of  a  horseshoe  it  would 
be  pretty  bad?  A.  So  would  a  piece  of  glass  broken  out  of  a 
window,  a  broom  or  a  mop  handle. 

Q.  How  long  did  the  horseshoe  pitching  last?  A.  I  think  it  must 
have  been  two  or  three  weeks,  but  that  was  my  first  stay,  and  the 
finer  details  I  cannot  recollect  now. 

Q.  Were  the  rules  of  the  institution  kept  where  the  patients 
could  see  them  ?  A.  I  never  saw  a  copy  of  them. 

Q.  You  never  saw  a  copy?  A.  Not  that  I  knew  anything  about. 

I  saw  a  copy  in  the  possession  of  Mr. - ,  but  at  the  time  I 

saw  them,  I  was  not  caring  much  about  rules  or  anything  else. 

Q.  After  you  got  better,  did  you  see  any?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  they  were  kept,  or  whether  any  publica¬ 
tion  of  them  was  made  to  the  nurses?  A.  I  don’t  know.  There 
are  some  rules  posted  in  the  nurses  ward.  They  were  not  rules  of 
the  institution. 

Q.  The  nurses — as  to  the  duty  of  the  nurses?  A.  I  have  never 
read  them  very  carefully.  I  think  so. 

Q.  Posted  how  ?  A.  On  the  nurses  room  where  the  patients 
have  no  right. 


75 


Q.  Did  you  ever  know  of  any  neglect  about  that  little  pay 
room  that  you  were  in?  A.  A  little. 

Q.  Broken  glass?  A.  Yes,  there  was  just  before  I  left  a  broken 
glass  there.  I  moved  my  place  at  the  table  to  get  away  as  I  didn’t 
like  the  draught  on  my  back.  There  was  a  piece  of  window  pane 
broken  out,  and  I  called  Mr.  Mitchell’s  attention  to  it,  and  he  said 
he  had  called  it  to  the  attention  of  the  outdoor  man  three  weeks  ago, 
and  he  had  not  paid  any  attention  to  it. 

Q.  How  long  did  it  remain  in  that  condition?  A.  I  left  a  short 
time  after  that  and  it  had  not  been  fixed  up  to  the  time  I  left. 

Q.  That  was  in  October,  I  believe?  A.  Yes,  sir,  that  was  in 
October. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  how  long  it  remained  out  before  it  was 
fixed?  A.  Mr  Mitchell  said  it  had  been  called  to  the  attention  of 
the  outdoor  man  three  weeks  before. 

Q.  But  it  had  not  been  fixed?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  the  nurses  and  the  attendants  get  along  in  there? 
A.  Well,  on  the  whole  very  well.  I  know  of  one  instance  where 
there  was  a  disagreement,  but  even  that,  I  did  not  see.  I  only 
heard  of  it. 

Q.  How  did  they  get  along  with  the  authorities  over  them,  the 
physicians?  Was  there  any  complaint  on  their  part  against  the 
physicians?  A.  I  can’t  say,  sir.  That  is  something  that  the  patient 
has  very  little  chance  to  know. 

Q.  I  mean  the  nurses  and  the  attendants,  did  they  ever  complain  ? 
A.  Against  the  management  of  the  institution  ? 

0.  Yes,  against  the  management,  or  against  anyone  connected 
with  the  management,  with  Mr.  Mitchell,  the  physicians  or  any 
of  them  ?  A.  I  would  not  like  to  mention  any  specific  detail,  because 
I  am  not  clear  enough  on  the  subject. 

Q.  You  don’t  recollect  any  instance  of  the  nurses?  A.  I  do  not 
now  recollect  any. 

Q.  That  is  what  I  mean.  Did  they  seem  to  be  pretty  obedient  to 
orders  from  headquarters,  these  different  under-tenants,  nurses  and 
keepers,  did  they  seem  to  be  disposed  to  carry  out  the  orders  from 
the  head  of  the  institution  ?  A.  Not  knowing  what  orders  they  got — 

Q.  Did  they  appear  to  be  in  harmony  with  those  above  them  ?  A. 
I  suppose  so.  I  didn’t  see  any  sings  of  any  particular  friction. 

Q.  Were  any  turned  off  while  you  were  here?  A.  They  were. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  for  ?  A.  I  don’t  know.  I  have  heard  of 
some  cases.  Mr.  Glover,  for  assault,  has  been  mentioned.  I  stated 


76 


to  you  that  Mr.  Munnerlyn,  with  whom  I  found  the  turkey,  was 
afterwards  discharged,  and  I  think  C.  W.  Brown  was  discharged. 
C.  W.  Brown,  according  to  my  information,  was  discharged,  and 
possibly  some  others.  The  names  I  cannot  remember  at  present. 
There  was  a  good  deal  of  changing  in  the  nurses. 

Q.  How  many  inebriates  and  dope  fiends  were  in  here  while  you 
were  here?  A.  A  good  many. 

Q.  Where  did  they  take  their  meals?  A.  They  took  their  meals, 
most  of  them  in  the  little  pay  room. 

Q.  The  same  room  you  were  in?  A.  Yes,  sir.  Some  of  them 
took  their  meals  in  the  big  pay  room,  the  big  mess  hall,  and  some¬ 
times  on  the  ward  if  their  condition  was  bad. 

Q.  Were  they  all  pay  patients?  A.  They  called  themselves  such. 
As  to  whether  they  were  or  not  the  authorities  will  have  to  answer. 

Q.  You  took  them  to  be  such?  A.  We  sometimes  took  them  at 
their  word.  Sometimes  we  did  not. 

Q.  Did  they  receive  any  different  treatment  from  what  the  others 
received  in  here?  A.  I  don’t  think  they  received  any  better  treat¬ 
ment  than  the  other  patients.  They  were  always  clamoring  for 
better  treatment,  and  insisting  upon  attention  being  shown  them. 

0.  Did  they  get  it?  A.  I  think  they  got  it  as  far  as  the  doctor 
could  give  it  to  them. 

Q.  How  did  they  get  along  with  Dr.  Thompson?  A.  Sometimes 
they  thought  he  was  pretty  hard  on  them,  but  usually  when  they 
got  well  they  thought  he  was  pretty  good.  They  were  always  very 
anxious  to  get  out  as  soon  as  they  got  free  from  the  liquor  or  dope. 

Q.  They  were  generally  very  impatient  to  get  out?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  they  have  any  difficulty  about  getting  out  ?  A.  Some  did. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  cause  or  excuse  they  had  for  not  letting 
them  go  out?  A.  The  doctors,  they  said,  told  them  they  were  not 
sufficiently  restored.  That  is  something  that  I  think  the  doctors 
can  answer  better. 

Q.  All  you  can  say  is  that  there  was  considerable  clamoring  to 
get  out?  A.  I — they  clamored,  yes,  sir.  I  think  the  physicians  will 
corroborate  that. 

Q.  I  suppose  all  that  class  of  patients  were  on  your  ward,  were 
they  not?  A.  I  think  they  made  an  effort  to  keep  them  there,  if 
they  were  really  pay  patients,  but  sometimes  they  would  behave 
themselves  in  such  a  way  that  it  would  be  necessary  to  send  them 
elsewhere. 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  an  idea  about  how  many  were  in  here  while 


77 


you  were  here?  A.  It  would  be  hard  to  say  on  the  spur  of  the 
moment.  If  you  will  give  me  time  I  will  try  to  get  at  about  the 
number  here  the  last  time  I  was  here. 

Q.  Twenty  or  twenty-five  while  you  were  here?  A.  I  can't 
remember.  I  don’t  know  whether  there  were  that  many,  but  there 
must  have  been  over  a  dozen. 

Q.  Over  a  dozen?  A.  I  would  not  be  surprised  if  there  were  not 
between  twelve  and  twenty-five.  Such  patients  do  not  usually  stay 
long.  I  am  speaking  of  the  last  time  I  was  here  about  this. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  patients,  those  that  could  under¬ 
stand  them,  had  access  to  the  rules  or  not  ?  A.  They  did  not  to  my 
knowledge.  I  never  asked  for  them  while  I  was  here. 

Q.  You  never  asked  for  them?  A.  I  never  did,  but  there  were 
not  any  to  my  knowledge.  I  don’t  know  anything  about  them.  I 
know  I  never  saw  them.  I  don’t  know  anything  about  them  except 
what  I  gathered  from  observation. 

Q.  Is  there  anything  further  you  would  like  to  state  to  the  Com¬ 
mittee?  A.  I  have  been  through  a  pretty  long  examination,  it  is  a 
pretty  hard  thing  at  once  to  say.  I  want  to  incorporate  in  the 
baseball  statement,  a  statement  that  Mr.  Bunch  helped  the  team  and 
Dr.  Saunders  and  Dr.  Thompson  furnished  us  with  materials  for  the 
uniforms,  and  the  ladies  made  up  our  uniforms  and  made  our  games 
very  pleasurable. 

Q.  Did  you  know  anything  about  meat  being  ground  up  in  a 
bath  tub?  A.  Ground  up  in  a  bath  tub? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  never  heard  of  that?  A.  No,  sir,  but  the  meat  tub  on 
one  occasion  was  being  washed  in  the  bath  tub. 

Q.  In  the  bath  tub?  A.  In  the  bath  tub  in  which  the  ward  five 
patients  had  bathed,  which  some  of  them  defiled  at  times,  and  I 
mentioned  that  matter  to  Dr.  Thompson  as  I  was  going  out, 
and  I  saw  it  again  when  a  patient  was  doing  the  washing. 

0.  Who  was  the  patient?  A.  - .  He  didn’t  have  any 

better  sense. 

Q.  Did  any  of  the  attendants  see  it  going  on  ?  A.  I  think  not. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  report  it  to  anybody?  A.  I  reported  it  to  Dr. 
Thompson  as  we  were  going  out  to  do  some  fixing  on  the  baseball 
grounds  one  day. 

Q.  What  did  Dr.  Thompsorr  say  ?  A.  The  doctor  merely  asked 
for  details. 

Q.  For  details?  A.  Yes,  and  I  told  him.  It  was  not  in  the 


78 


nature  of  a  report  that  I  made  it.  It  was  only  a  little  information 
I  thought  he  would  want. 

Q.  Was  the  patient  pretty  crazy?  A.  He  is  a  well-intentioned 
fellow,  but  he  does  not  know  any  better  than  to  do  that. 

The  Chairman — As  I  understand,  the  only  two  cases  of  personal 
assault  that  you  witnessed  yourself  was  that  of  the  patient  Mr. 

- ?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  saw  that. 

Q.  And  the  instance  in  which  you  were  whipped?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
Q.  There  was  no  other  that  you  saw  or  know  of  personally?  A. 
That  I  recollect.  I  think  there  were  others,  but  I  don’t  recall  them. 
0.  Was  the  patient -  a  large  or  a  small  man?  A.  A  small 


man. 

Q.  Who  were  the  two  patients  that  had  that  -  fight?  A. 

-  and  - . 

Q.  Were  they  large  men?  A.  -  is  not 


tall,  but  very  sturdy  and  thickset,  and  Dickerson  about  the  same 
size  as  - . 

Q.  Your  testimony,  as  I  recall  it,  was  that  the  patient,  against 
the  rules,  was  attempting  to  go  from  one  yard  into  another?  A.  No. 
He  was  talking  too  loud,  either  to  imaginary  persons  or  persons 
on  the  outside  in  that  corner  of  the  front  yard. 

0.  And  the  nurse  heard  him  at  it?  A.  They  heard  him,  and 
told  him  to  come  away  from  there  and  stop  talking,  and  my  recollec¬ 
tion  is  that  they  started  to  take  him  in  at  once. 

Q.  He  was  not  trying  to  escape  from  the  yard  ?  A.  He  was  not. 

Q.  Did  he  make  any  effort  to  strike  out  there  ?  A.  He  did  not. 

Q.  How  did  he  resist?  A.  He  simply  struggled  against  their 
efforts  to  take  him. 

Q.  In  his  struggles  he  didn’t  strike  them?  A.  My  recollection 
is  that  he  did  not. 

Q.  Did  he  make  any  movement  against  them  before  they  laid 
hands  on  him?  A.  My  recollection  is  that  he  did  not. 

Q.  Just  how  did  they  lay  hands  on  him?  A.  Well,  one  just 
took  hold  of  one  side  and  one  the  other,  and  started  to  pull  him 
along,  and  he  resisted,  and  when  he  resisted  they  threw  him  down, 
and  as  he  was  still  resisting  one  of  them  choked  him. 

Q.  Did  they  strike  him  incidentally  to  choking  him  ?  A.  My 
idea  is  that  they  did  not  strike  him.  The  reason  there  was  the 
commotion  among  the  patients  about  it,  was  because  they  felt  that 
he  could  have  been  taken  without  the  choking.  We  recognized  that 
it  was  necessary  to  remove  him  from  the  yard. 


79 


Q.  From  your  observation  would  you  say  that  it  was  not  neces¬ 
sary  to  use  the  force  that  they  used?  A.  Not  necessary  to  use  the 
choking. 

Q.  In  speaking  of  the  incident  when  you  were  strapped,  as  I 
understand  it,  that  term  is  sometimes  used  to  mean  a  certain  kind  of 
restraint?  A.  I  meant  that  a  strap  such  as  is  used  to  hold  these 
things  on  the  patient  was  used  as  a  whip  across  my  back. 

Q.  Were  you  whipped  first  and  strapped  afterwards?  A.  I  was 
whipped  and  the  straps  put  on  afterwards,  I  had  the  straps  on,  but 
they  took  them  off  to  bathe  me.  I  was  just  out  of  the  bath. 

Q.  It  was  not  the  strapping  but  the  whipping  that  you  complained 
of?  A.  The  restraint  I  considered  perfectly  proper. 

Q.  The  only  provocation  was  that  you  spat  at  the  nurse?  A.  I 
did.  I  thought  I  was  ordered  to  do  it.  I  thought  my  soul’s  salva¬ 
tion  depended  on  it. 

Q.  Did  you  offer  any  violence  towards  him?  A.  Except  that 
thing. 

Q.  Did  you  struggle  any  with  him  ?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  The  only  provocation  for  his  whipping  you  with  the  strap 
was  the  spitting?  A.  It  was.  Will  you  let  me  put  this  on  the 
record.  One  day  the  nurses  were  talking  about  that,  and  they  com¬ 
mented  on  the  fact  that  Dr.  Thompson  had  better  not  see  those 
marks,  and  he  never  did  see  them. 

Q.  As  to  the  treatment  of  patients  there,  with  a  view  to  recovery — 
was  there  any  well-defined  treatment,  occupation  or  recreation  look¬ 
ing  towards  recovery?  A.  Not  that  I  ever  saw.  The  inebriates 
and  the  dope  fiends  had  a  sort  of  drug  treatment,  and  medicines 
were  given  to  other  patients — certain  medical  prescriptions,  but  I 
never  saw  myself  any  specific  treatment. 

Q.  As  to  the  occupation  of  the  patients,  did  it  seem  to  be  directed 
to  the  recovery  of  the  patient,  or  to  the  usefulness  of  the  institution  ? 
A.  I  don’t  think  that  there  was  any  effort  there  that  I  was  ever 
acquainted  with  to  use  the  patients  for  the  good  of  the  institution. 
I  don’t  think  I  ever  saw  any  such  occupation.  The  patients  were 
engaged  simply  for  the  purpose  of  cleaning  up  the  wards,  work 
in  the  field  and  things  of  that  kind.  I  was  not  speaking  of  this.  I 
was  speaking  simply  of  the  accommodation  for  recreation  and 
amusements. 

Q.  Was  there  any  well-ordered  attempt  to  interest  the  patients 
in  the  various  occupations?  A.  T  did  not  see  any. 


8o 


Q.  The  baseball  games  have  been  going  on  in  some  way  for  a 
number  of  seasons,  have  they  not  ?  A.  The  first  I  saw  of  it  was  the 
first  spring  I  was  here.  They  began  there  a  crowd  playing  around, 
and  somebody  suggested  that  we  ask  that  we  be  allowed  to  play, 
and  money  wTas  invested,  being  raised  among  the  patients  for  that 
purpose,  and  it  grew  from  that  initiation  by  the  patients  absolutely. 

Q.  That  was  when  you  were  first  here?  A.  That  is  the  second 
time.  Most  of  my  recollection  is  of  the  second. 

Q.  What  time  was  baseball  started  that  summer?  A.  It  was 
pretty  early  in  the  spring. 

Q.  And  it  was  started,  as  you  say,  as  far  as  you  know,  at  the 
initiation  of  the  patients?  A.  It  was. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  one  of  the  nurses  taking  a  turkey  that  you 
understood  was  for  the  use  of  the  patients?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  other  occasions  where  nurses  ate  delicacies 
that  were  sent  to  patients?  A.  I  can’t  recollect.  I  have  heard 
patients  complain  of  things  being  lost  out  of  their  baskets,  but  I 
know  of  no  authenticated  instance. 

Q.  Did  any  of  the  patients  ever  complain  to  you  of  any  of  the 
nurses  taking  them?  A.  Not  about  that.  I  have  heard  a  nurse 
speak  about  another  nurse  eating  delicacies  sent  for  patients. 

Q.  What  nurses  made  that  complaint?  A.  I  talked  to  several  of 
them.  I  could  not  mention  the  names  of  them.  The  nurse  of  whom 
the  allegation  was  made  I  can  mention  if  you  think  necessary. 

Q.  I  wrant  to  get  the  nurse  that  made  the  complaint?  A.  I  can’t 
mention  that,  sir,  for  certain.  I  have  an  idea.  I  think  I  know. 

Q.  I  want  to  know  if  you  are  certain.  You  spoke  of  an  instance 
of  a  Presbyterian  minister  who  was  called  “old  man”,  a  term  that 
he  objected  to,  by  a  nurse,  and  you  said  he  started  it.  What  occurred 
after  the  start?  What  was  the  result?  A.  Well,  the  circumstances 

I  had  better  explain  more  in  detail.  This  man’s  name  is  - 

The  nurse  knew  his  name.  He  complained  and  the  nurse  did  not 
give  him  any  satisfaction.  He  complained  to  Dr.  Thompson,  and 
the  nurse  then  said  afterwards,  I  heard  him  not  very  long  afterwards, 
“I  didn’t  know  I  was  doing  any  harm.” 

Q.  That  was  not  a  typical  instance?  A.  I  think  there  were  very 
many  instances  where  patients  were  treated  very  badly.  It  depends 
on  the  degree  of  intelligence  of  the  patient  and  of  the  nurse.  A 
man  who  is  not  able  to  take  care  of  himself  in  the  hands  of  a  badly 
disposed  nurse  is  bound  to  fare  badly. 

0.  You  knew  of  such  nurses?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


8i 


Q.  Were  there  many  such  nurses?  A.  There  were  a  good  many 
there  that  were  not  what  they  should  have  been. 

0.  You  spoke  about  a  patient  playing  ball  who  became  noisy, 
and  a  nurse  said  he  would  use  straps  if  he  didn’t  keep  quiet.  The 
point  was  that,  as  I  understood,  the  nurse  knew  that  would  start 
him  up,  that  particular  patient  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  he  frequently  did  so?  A.  No.  I  can’t  say  that,  I  didn’t 
see  that,  but  at  that  particular  time  and  that  particular  instance 
he  did  that. 

Q.  Was  that  particular  nurse  given  to  disregarding  the  peculiari¬ 
ties  of  the  patients  in  that  way?  A.  I  don’t  think  he  had  too  much 
sense  for  one  thing.  If  he  had  had  more  sense  he  would  not  have 
said  it.  I  can’t  say  that.  He  was  an  ill-disposed  fellow,  however. 

Q.  Were  there  other  nurses  who  were  ill-disposed  in  that  way? 
A.  There  were  several  nurses  who  were  very  distasteful  to  patients 
and  provoking  towards  them. 

Q.  Did  they  do  any  teasing?  A.  Very  often. 

Q.  What  form  of  teasing  did  they  use?  A.  They  teased  patients 
that  they  knew  would  holler,  scream  or  curse. 

Q.  Tell  me  some  of  the  patients?  A.  There  is  a  patient  named 

- ,  on  the  fifth  ward.  I  have  heard  him  teased  pretty 

nearly  a  whole  afternoon. 

Q.  By  whom  ?  A.  By  a  nurse,  so  he  told  me. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  teasing?  A.  I  didn’t  see  the  teasing.  I 
heard  it,  and  recognized  it  from  the  patient’s  voice.  I  knew 
it  could  be  only  that  patient  and  only  when  he  was  teased. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  teasing?  A.  I  have  seen  him  teased  a  little, 
yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  other  patients  teased?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Tell  about  some  instances  that  you  saw  yourself?  A.  As  far 
as  that  is  concerned  I  have  to  plead  guilty  myself.  When  I  was 
feeling  pretty  bad  and  wanted  some  distraction  I  teased  a  bit. 

There  was  a  fellow  by  the  name  of  -  that  when  he  gets  in  a 

bad  fix  will  curse  at  you.  I  never  saw  a  nurse  tease  him,  but  I  heard 

it  was  a  custom  on  his  ward.  So  far  as  teasing  is  concerned, - , 

of  whom  I  have  spoken  already,  I  have  seen  nurses  tease  him, 
and  then  when  he  got  obstreperous  as  a  result  of  the  teasing,  they 
would  yank  him  into  his  room.  I  can  mention  the  name  there  and 
some  of  the  details. 

Q.  Give  us  the  name  and  details.  A.  It  started  with  the  patient. 
The  patient  was  requested  by  Mr.  -  for  a  light  for  his 


6— A. 


8  2 


cigarette.  The  patient  gave  the  light,  and  then  just  as  Mr. - 

was  about  to  enjoy  his  cigarette,  he  took  the  cigarette  out  of  his 
mouth  and  held  it.  He  became  somewhat  excited  and  finally  spit 
at  this  other  patient  and  ran  over  into  another  ward.  Over  in  the 
other  ward  a  nurse  began  to  tease  him,  and  he  became  obstreperous 
with  this  nurse,  and  they  finally  tried  to  make  him  go  in,  and  he 
refused  to  go,  and  began  to  fight,  and  he  was  carried  fighting  into 
his  room,  and  the  fighting  was  the  direct  result  of  the  teasing  by 
the  nurse. 

Q.  Was  he  ever  teased  again?  A.  I  think  he  was  teased  very 
often.  It  was  a  very  common  thing  for  him  to  be  teased. 

Q.  By  other  nurses  and  patients?  A.  It  was. 

Q.  Were  there  other  patients  used  in  that  way  for  sport?  A. 
I  know  of  a  case  where  a  nurse — but  the  nurse  can  testify  to  that 
himself. 

Q.  What  is  the  nurse’s  name?  A.  George  Brown — on  one 

occasion  with  - ,  where  straps  were  put  on  him  just  as 

a  matter  of  sport. 

Q.  By  whom  ?  A.  By  a  nurse  on  the  third  ward. 

Q.  Did  you  see  that?  A.  I  heard  the  facts.  I  was  with  Mr. 
George  Brown  on  the  piazza.  He  was  at  that  time  officiating  on  the 
second  ward,  and  I  heard  him  upstairs  cursing,  and  he  said  he  had 
straps  on  and  that  they  were  put  on  just  for  sport. 

Q.  You  say  this  bathing  was  done  up  there  by  a  nurse  or  by  a 
patient?  A.  Yes,  sir,  on  the  fifth  ward.  This  was  the  case  I  was 
speaking  of.  Where  men  were  able  to  take  care  of  themselves  they 
usually  did  their  own  bathing.  Some  would  not  bathe  at  all  unless 
made  to  do  so,  and  the  patients  on  the  fifth  ward  assisted  the  nurses 
in  the  bathing. 

0.  Did  the  nurses  ever  leave  it  largely  to  the  patients  ?  A.  I 
think  they  did  largely.  I  think  they  left  it  mostly  to  the  patients 
on  the  fifth  ward.  They  have  to  see  to  it. 

Q.  They  stood  there  and  saw  it  done?  A.  That  is  my  under¬ 
standing,  but  I  can’t  swear  to  that. 

0.  Did  you  see  it  done  yourself?  A.  Once  a  week  I  saw  the 
patients  standing  around  naked  getting  into  the  tub,  and  coming  out, 
and  putting  on  clean  clothes  on  the  fifth  ward. 

Q.  You  say  often  more  than  one  would  bathe  in  the  same  water? 
A.  Let  me  put  this  thing  straight.  I  know  they  assisted,  for  I  have 
seen  the  patients  assisting  the  nurses.  Often  they  could  not  come 
down  and  the  patients  would  stay  and  help  with  the  washing. 


83 


Q.  You  won’t  know  whether  the  nurse  was  there  or  not?  A.  I 
don’t  know  whether  he  was  or  not. 

Q.  Was  there  any  complaint  about  bathing  more  than  one  patient 
in  the  same  water?  A.  I  never  heard  of  it.  The  men  that  they  so 
bathed  did  not  have  sense  enough  to  complain. 

Q.  Only  those  that  did  not  have  sense  enough  to  complain  were 
treated  that  way?  A.  I  don’t  think  that  men  that  had  sense  enough 
to  complain  would  have  bathed  that  way,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  there  was  not  any  complaint?  Why  wasn’t  there 
complaint  ?  A.  Because  the  men  that  were  being  bathed  that  way 
did  not  have  sense  enough  to  complain.  And  the  others  that  saw  it, 
I  know  for  my  part,  the  reason  I  have  given  already  is  why  I  did 
not  make  reports  if  I  could  help  it. 

Q.  Why  not  ?  A.  I  did  not  know  whether  it  would  not  result  only 
in  incurring  the  dislike  of  some  one  in  authority  over  me,  I  mean 
the  attendant  in  authority  over  me. 

Q.  The  nurse?  A.  I  mean  the  attendant  that  my  report  might 
concern. 

Q.  Had  you  any  experience  that  led  you  to  believe  that?  A.  I 
had  seen  cases  where  people  had  been  up  to  make  reports  and 
nothing  had  been  done,  and  I  knew  from  the  old  patients  who  had 
made  reports  that  they  had  quit  making  them  because  no  result 
ever  followed. 

Mr.  Hardin — I  don’t  like  to  interfere  in  asking  questions,  but  I 
think  the  testimony  has  been  gone  over,  and  there  are  a  good  many 
questions  being  asked  that  the  witness  has  already  been  asked.  I 
merely  make  that  suggestion. 

The  Chairman — I  should  say  that  my  memory  may  not  be  good 
and  I  may  not  be  as  skillful  as  I  ought  to  be,  but  in  the  best  way  I 
can  I  will  have  to  proceed. 

0.  With  reference  to  taking  care  of  patients,  was  their  hair 
brushed  mornings,  and  were  they  generally  well  attended  to?  A. 
No,  sir,  not  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  If  a  patient  could  not  attend  to  himself  he  would  have  to  go 
without  being  attended  to?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  did  myself. 

Q.  You  mean  your  hair  was  not  brushed?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  had 
the  straps  on  at  the  time. 

Q.  Was  it  a  common  thing  that  nurses  allowed  the  patients  to 
go  without  their  hair  being  brushed,  and  the  clothing  properly 
renewed?  A.  I  don’t  think  there  was  any  effort  to  keep  it  so.  My 
observation  was  that  they  did  not.  There  was  a  paralytic  on  my 


84 


ward  attended  to  by  a  patient  who  looked  after  him.  The  nurse 
gave  him  the  medicine.  I  never  knew  of  the  nurse  looking  after 
him  in  the  way  you  mention.  I  did  know  of  a  patient  doing  it. 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  that  patient?  A.  Mr.  Connor.  I  remem¬ 
ber  seeing  that  patient  get  one  all-over  bath  that  I  remember  while 
I  was  there. 

Q.  He  needed  it  oftener?  A.  Well,  I  should  think  so,  a  man  lying 
in  his  bed  day  in  and  day  out. 

Q.  Was  he  given  any  other  kind  of  bath  ?  A.  I  think  this  patient 
that  I  speak  of,  I  think  they  washed  his  face  and  hands  for  him, 
but  even  that  I  cannot  tell.  I  never  saw  the  attendant  giving  him 
any  attention  of  that  kind.  He  may  have,  but  I  never  saw  it. 

Q.  What  makes  you  think  he  was  not  bathed  oftener?  A.  The 
question,  if  you  put  it  that  way,  I  will  have  to  say  that  I  don’t  know 
whether  he  was  or  not,  but  I  do  know  he  was  not  bathed  in  my 
sight.  If  he  was  I  think  I  should  have  heard  something  of  it. 

Q.  What  was  the  name  of  the  patient?  A.  - . 

Q.  And  the  nurse?  A.  The  nurses  varied  on  the  ward. 

Q.  The  nurses  varied?  A.  Changed  from  time  to  time.  They 
take  the  nurses  off  the  ward  at  certain  intervals. 

Q.  Were  patients  furnished  with  special  towels  for  their  daily 
bathing?  A.  They  were  given  towels  if  they  wanted  them,  I  sup¬ 
pose  two  or  three  a  week.  I  suppose  they  were  furnished  to  him  if 
he  asked  for  them. 

Q.  Did  many  of  the  patients  get  special  towels?  A.  No,  most 
of  them  did  not.  In  some  cases  where  a  fellow  was  in  a  very  bad 
fix  he  would. 

Q.  They  had  towels  regularly?  A.  They  furnished  towels. 

Q.  That  is  ward  five.  A.  Two. 

Q.  How  about  ward  five?  A.  I  was  only  on  that  the  first  time 
and  a  little  while,  and  the  patients  from  five  attended  to  most  of 
them. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  some  trouble  with  the  socks.  What  was  that 
trouble?  A.  They  smelled  bad  when  they  came  back  from  the 
laundry.  They  were  not  clean. 

Q.  Did  you  report  that?  A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  Why  not?  A.  It  was  a  matter  of  course.  It  had  been  going 
so  for  a  good  while.  I  did  not  report  that  for  that  reason.  It 
never  occurred  to  me  to  tell  the  doctor.  I  accepted  it  as  a  matter 
of  course. 

Q.  And  that  is  why  you  never  complained — because  you  accepted 


85 


it  as  a  matter  of  course?  A.  Could  not  you  specify  a  little? 

Q.  I  am  speaking  of  your  complaint?  A.  The  report  was  not 
made  by  me. 

Q.  What  other  work  besides  attending  to  the  clothes  did  you  do 
on  the  ward?  A.  After  I  got  in  a  little  better  shape  I  made  up 
my  bed,  and  sometimes  I  got  the  patients  to  do  that  for  me.  I 
usually  swept  out  my  half  of  the  room,  and  occasionally  helped  the 
nurse  with  his  monthly  report,  writing  it  out  for  him.  The  things 
I  have  mentioned  were  all  the  things  I  did.  For  a  long  time  the 
only  rest  I  could  find  was  in  continually  reading. 

Q.  You  say  you  made  out  the  nurses’  reports?  A.  Sometimes 
they  were  rather  illiterate,  and  sometimes  wrote  a  bad  hand.  I  had 
more  facility  with  the  pen,  and  that  is  the  reason  they  used  me. 

Q.  What  did  those  reports  consist  of?  A.  Reports  of  the  number 
of  patients  on  the  wards,  the  names  of  the  patients,  and  every 
month  they  filed  requisitions  for  what  they  needed.  They  knew 
what  articles  were  needed  on  the  ward,  and  made  out  requisitions 
for  it. 

Q.  The  making  out  of  these  reports  was  left  largely  to  you  by 
some  of  the  nurses?  A.  No,  the  facts  had  to  be  kept  and  furnished 
by  the  nurses.  They  were  always  present  when  the  report  was 
made,  and  the  requisitions  I  wrote  I  usually  wrote  after  he  had 
written  them  out  himself  or  at  his  direction.  Sometimes  I  helped 
them  remember  what  was  needed. 

Q.  Was  it  customary  to  air  your  beds  at  stated  intervals?  A.  It 
was  not  in  ward - . 

Q.  Second  or  five?  A.  Second. 

Q.  How  about  five?  A.  I  can't  state  positively,  but  my  recollec¬ 
tion  is  that  the  patients,  the  beds  of  patients  who  defiled  them,  were 
aired.  If  anybody  wanted  to  air  his  bed,  he  shouldered  it  and  took 
it  down  himself.  There  was  no  effort  to  have  it  aired.  Even  then, 
I  cannot  say  that  it  was  done  on  the  fifth  ward  regularly,  but  I  have 
seen  beds  of  such  patients  taken  out  or  in. 

Q.  Was  the  covering  of  the  beds  kept  clean?  A.  I  recollect  they 
were  washing  them  once. 

0.  \\  hen  was  that  ?  A.  This  year.  I  mean  the  last  year  I  was 
there. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  what  time  of  the  year?  A.  I  do  not.  I 
merely  recollect  the  washing. 

0.  Do  you  recollect  any  washing  any  other  time?  A.  I  do  not, 
but  it  was  very  rare. 


86 


Q.  How  was  the  washing  done?  A.  I  have  no  very  detailed 
recollection  of  that.  Sometimes  a  patient  is  employed  for  such 
work,  but  I  don't  remember  the  date. 

Q.  The  general  washing?  A.  There  was  a  general  washing  last 
summer  by  a  negro  woman.  She  came  in  and  did  the  work.  I 
don't  know  whether  they  washed  the  glasses  or  not.  I  don’t  think 
they  did.  I  don’t  remember  that  as  part  of  the  work,  but  they  did 
wash  the  rooms  and  the  floors  thoroughly. 

Q.  Were  the  windows  washed  at  any  other  time?  A.  The 
recollection  that  I  have  of  the  washing  was  another  time  and  place. 
It  was  not  the  washing  of  the  windows  in  my  room,  but  the  wash¬ 
ing  of  the  windows  in  the  room  that  might  be  called  the  reading 
room,  the  sitting  room. 

Q.  Were  the  walls  of  the  rooms  in  pretty  good  condition?  A. 
Mine  were  fearful. 

Q.  In  what  way?  A.  Bedbugs,  nests  all  over  it. 

O.  Had  it  been  whitewashed  recently  when  you  first  went  there? 
A.  Not  for  a  long  time.  I  didn’t  complain  about  it  until  I  began 
feeling  better  and  taking  more  interest  in  life,  and  then,  as  I  have 
already  stated,  Mr.  Mitchell  said  there  was  no  way  to  have  it  done 
at  that  time. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  a  glass  in  the  dining  room.  Are  the  repairs  done 
well  ?  A.  All  broken  glasses  are  repaired  at  pretty  regular  intervals. 

Q.  How  about  other  repairs  in  the  building?  A.  They  were 
made  I  think  pretty  well.  My  recollection  of  that  is  that  they  were 
made  right  along. 

Q.  Speaking  of  those  involved  in  the  plumbing  and  heating,  how 
about  those?  A.  I  think  those  were  pretty  promptly  made.  Some¬ 
times  the  bathrooms  were  closed  for  a  few  hours,  but  they  did 
prompt  work  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge. 

Q.  You  were  speaking  of  your  treatment  there.  Did  you  receive 
any  treatment  in  the  way  of  medicine  or  occupation  or  recreation 
except  attending  to  the  clothes  and  baseball  that  was  devoted  to  your 
recovery?  A.  Nothing  except  of  my  own  initiation. 

Q.  You  would  say,  then,  your  recovery  was  not  by  reason  of  any 
treatment  you  received  there,  but  to  the  fact  that  you  received  none? 
A.  That  is  the  way  I  looked  at  it,  the  restraint  being  the  whole 
thing,  together  with  whatever  exercise  I  took,  and  I  took  that  in 
spite  of  the  circumstances  that  were  against  me. 

Q.  Was  the  fare  on  the  whole  you  received  nourishing?  A. 
Well,  it  was  not  what  I  would  consider  nourishing.  I  have  gained 


87 


twenty-five  pounds  since  I  left,  and  have  been  gaining  steadily.  I 
don’t  know  what  others  may  consider  it,  sir.  It  was  not,  as  I  say, 
what  I  have  been  considering  nourishing. 

Mr.  Harrison — You  said  you  made  two  reports,  one  to  Mr. 
Mitchell  and  one  to  Dr.  Thompson,  about  the  condition  of  the  food, 
and  that  was  not  brought  out?  A.  On  refreshing  my  memory  on 
that  it  was  about  the  eggs  in  the  dining  room, 

Q.  Just  state  the  nature  of  the  reports?  A.  The  eggs  in  the 
dining  rooms  that  were  furnished  were  often  very  dirty,  and 
many  of  the  eggs  were  in  such  condition  that  some  of  the  patients 
would  not  touch  them  because  of  that,  and  one  morning  it  was 
so  bad  that  I  saved  an  egg,  black  on  the  bottom,  and  took  it  to  Mr. 
Mitchell,  as  he  is  supposed  to  have  the  management  of  such  things, 
and  he  told  me  not  to  make  the  report  to  him,  that  the  people  in 
the  kitchen  did  not  respect  his  authority,  that  I  must  make  the 
report  to  Dr.  Thompson,  and  he  went  on  to  say  that  he  didn’t 
know  that  they  would  pay  much  attention  to  Dr.  Thompson’s  author¬ 
ity,  and  I  went  and  took  the  egg  to  Dr.  Thompson,  and  Dr.  Thomp¬ 
son  went  down  and  found  the  employee  about  the  matter,  and 
things  went  better  for  a  little  while,  and  then  it  got  back  again, 
and  off  and  on  they  were  black  on  the  bottom.  There  was  evidence 
of  unclean  preparation  so  far  as  those  eggs  were  concerned. 

The  Chairman — I  did  not  understand  whether  you  were  not  kept 
posted  or  your  family  was  not?  A.  The  facts  are  these:  That 
when  I  first  came  my  father  wrote  to  Dr.  Babcock,  and  got  no 
answer,  and  he  did  not  get  any  knowledge  until  he  threat¬ 
ened  to  write  to  Dr.  Thompson,  but  during  the  second  time 
they  knew  to  whom  to  apply,  and  they  were  kept  informed  except 
when  I  was  about  to  get  out,  and  in  that  case  my  brother  could  not 
get  an  answer. 

Q.  Letters  directed  to  whom?  A.  Dr.  Babcock. 

Q.  Were  there  several  letters  or  one  unanswered?  A.  That 
from  my  brother  was  one  communication. 

Q.  On  the  first,  one  communication?  A.  My  father  is  not  sure 
whether  he  wrote  once  or  several  times. 

Mr.  Hardin — The  witness  made  a  reference  to  a  particular  friend 

of  mine,  Rev.  Mr. - ,  and  I  would  like  to  ask  you — I 

understood  you  as  saying  that  you  were  in  the  same  ward  with  him  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  Do  you  think  he  was  treated  at  the  time  you  speak  of  unfairly? 


88 


A.  He  was  not  treated  unfairly  by  Dr.  Thompson.  He  was  treated 
with  discourtesy  by  the  nurses. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  it  was  really  meant  as  a  discourtesy,  or 
just  in  a  pleasant  way  he  said  “old  man”?  A.  It  was  in  a  very 
unpleasant  way. 

Q.  Whether  said  in  a  very  pleasant  way  or  not  he  took  it  that 
way?  A.  Mr.  Henderson  resented  it  very  bitterly. 

Mr.  Hardin — I  want  to  say,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  seen  Mr. 

- since  he  has  been  discharged.  He  is  preaching  again,  and 

his  condition  was  not  so  serious  as  to  make  it  necessary  to  keep 
him  here.  I  consider  that  he  is  well  now.  I  have  heard  him 
preach  since  he  has  been  discharged.  The  only  interest  I  have  in 
this  particular  matter  is  that  he  once  preached  at  a  little  church  of 
which  I  was  a  member. 

Mr.  Ray — I  would  like  to  ask  you  a  question  ?  Has  Mr. - 

ever  complained  to  you  of  this  treatment  while  here  ? 

Mr.  Hardin — No  sir. 

Mr.  Carey — This  is  a  little  irregular.  The  only  witness  on  the 
stand  is  Mr.  - .  The  question  can  come  a  little  later. 

Mr.  Carey — There  is  one  question  that  Dr.  Babcock  wants  you  to 
answer.  Have  you  ever  been  put  in  position  to  see  and  have  you 
seen  much  medical  treatment  of  insane  people  during  your  life?  A. 
The  only  chance  to  see  it  I  have  had  was  here,  and  I  haven’t  seen 
it  here. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  method  of  treatment,  I  mean  aside  from 
the  body,  of  insane  persons?  A.  I  am  not  a  physician,  but  I  have 
been  to  sanitariums  where  people  in  a  low  nervous  condition  were 
treated  by  certain  methods,  and  I  always  have  felt  that  a  person 
whose  mind  is  in  a  bad  fix  required  every  possible  device  that  he 
could  be  supplied  with. 

Q.  I  mean  the  treatment  of  the  mind  alone  aside  from  the  physical 
condition?  A.  It  seems  to  me  that  my  answer  to  that  would  be 
that  I  am  not  expected  to  know. 

Q.  I  am  simply  asking  you.  You  are  complaining  that  they  don’t 
make  sufficient  efforts  here  to  restore  patients,  and  they  simply  want 
to  know.  We  want  to  have  the  benefit  of  what  you  know  about 
methods  to  restore  patients.  That  was  the  reason  I  was  asked  to 
ask  you  that  question.  Do  you  know  any  way  of  restoring 
patients  except  that?  A.  My  knowledge  of  medicine  is  slight,  but 
my  idea  from  my  own  experience  and  from  watching  others  is  that 


89 


a  great  deal  can  be  done  by  proper  diversion,  exercise  and  fresh  air 
systematically  encouraged. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  was  sufficiently  encouraged  while  you  were 
here?  A.  I  do  not.  The  fact  that  there  were  no  diversions  except 
by  the  patient’s  initiative — this  is  my  basis  for  that  statement  in  part. 

Q.  You  think  that  the  authorities  did  not  interest  themselves 
sufficiently  in  preparing  those  things?  A.  I  do.  I  will  qualify 
that.  I  found  Dr.  Thompson  always  ready  to  help  me  so  far  as  he 
could,  and  I  would  like  for  that  to  go  on  the  record,  but  the  policy 
of  the  institution  is  what  caused  me  to  say  this.  No  systematic 
effort  is  being  made  along  that  line. 

0.  Were  they  supplied  with  books?  A.  If  they  wanted  to  go 
down  to  the  library  and  get  them  they  could,  but  the  library  was 
not  systematically  run. 

Q.  They  did  have  a  library?  A.  There  is  a  library,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  allowed  to  read  the  papers  and  magazines?  A.  If 
they  took  them  themselves  or  could  get  them,  and  sometimes 
magazines  were  sent  bv  outsiders  to  the  patients. 

Q.  Any  card  playing?  A.  There  was  card  playing  and  indoor 
amusements. 

Q.  Checkers?  A.  Checkers  were  furnished  by  the  patients. 
These  were  the  diversions. 

Q.  Baseball?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  other  diversions  do  you  think  they  ought  to  provide? 
A.  You  want  me  to  answer  from  my  knowledge  of  it? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  I  think  they  ought  to  have  been  furnished.  There 
was  once  a  bowling  alley,  and  there  should  be  a  pool  table.  It 
seems  to  me  those  things  would  be  very  helpful.  And  on  the 
outside  they  should  be  furnished  with  games  that  will  not  hurt  them, 
and  it  ought  not  to  depend  on  the  patient,  but  the  State  of  South 
Carolina  should  furnish  those  things. 

Q.  Do  you  think  of  any  regulations  the  State  ought  to  provide? 
A.  I  forgot  to  mention  the  fact  that  Dr.  Thompson  assisted  us  in 
arranging  a  tennis  court.  The  tennis  set  was  supplied  by  a  friend 
of  mine  who  sent  it  to  us.  The  place  was  supplied  by  the  State  and 
the  court  was  laid  out  by  myself  and  another  man  with  Dr.  Thomp¬ 
son’s  assistance. 

Q.  Is  there  anything  you  think  ought  to  be  provided,  that  you 
ought  to  have  and  do  not  have?  A.  Ought  to  have  but  don’t  have? 

0.  Yes.  I  think  the  authorities  ought  to  have  looked  out  to  see 


90 


that  the  men  get  to  go  on  walks  sometimes  from  the  confines  of 
the  institution  out  into  the  fresh  air. 

Q.  Were  they  allowed  that — those  that  wanted  to  go  out?  A. 
No.  One  man  could  go  out  with  the  attendants,  but  there  was  no 
organized  effort  to  encourage  anything  of  that  kind  at  all. 

Q.  You  think  they  ought  to  be  allowed  to  go  into  the  city?  A. 
If  they  are  able  to  do  so. 

Q.  I  mean  generally,  those  like  yourself?  A.  In  my  case  it 
helped.  Are  not  others  it  would  help  entitled  to  the  same?  There 
was  one  man  that  went  out  on  my  suggestion,  and  he  was  a  different 
man  after  that.  He  went  to  the  baseball  games. 

Q.  Who  was  he?  A.  - . 

Q.  Is  it  your  idea  that  it  ought  to  be  forced  upon  them?  A.  Not 
forced,  but  encouraged. 

Q.  Encouraged?  A.  Systematically. 

Q.  What  class  of  patients  do  you  think  ought  to  be  encouraged 
to  do  that?  A.  I  think  the  physicians  ought  to  use  their  judgment 
about  that  sort  of  thing.  The  matter  that  I  am  standing  for,  from 
my  point  of  view,  is  that  it  ought  to  be  a  part  of  the  policy  of  the 
institution  towards  such  patients. 

Q.  How  about  the  opportunities  to  get  away  if  they  are  allowed 
to  come  out  of  here?  A.  That  has  to  be  looked  after,  but  it  can 
be  provided  against. 

0.  How  would  you  provide  against  that?  A.  By  sending  attend¬ 
ants  along  with  them.  In  some  cases  it  is  not  necessary.  It  seems 
rather  hard  for  me  to  pronounce  upon  these  things  like  an  authority. 
I  can  only  give  it  to  you  as  the  feelings  of  a  man  who  has  been  on 
the  inside. 

Q.  That  is  what  we  have  come  out  here  for,  to  ge't  you  to  tell 
us  everything  that  you  think  would  help  these  people.  If  you  have 
anything  further  we  would  be  glad  for  you  to  tell  it,  if  you  have 
anything  not  growing  out  of  the  questions  we  have  asked?  A. 
There  is  something  that  I  asked  you  to  postpone,  and  as  it  will 
appear  in  the  testimony,  it  had  better  be  taken  up.  You  asked  me  if 
I  ever  tried  to  get  an  interview  with  Dr.  Babcock,  and  I  told  you 
there  had  never  been  anything  of  that  kind,  but  had  written  letters 
to  the  Superintendent  which  did  not  secure  any  notice  at  all. 

Q.  About  Dr.  Babcock?  A.  Yes,  and  I  asked  you  to  postpone 
that  question  until  the  doctor  returned. 

Q.  When  was  it  written?  A.  Just  before  I  left,  a  month  or  six 
weeks. 


9i 


Q.  Did  Mr.  -  write  the  letters?  A.  He  dictated  them  to 

me.  He  gave  it  to  me,  and  I  put  in  the  words,  and  he  sent  them. 
He  asked  me  because  I  had  more  facility  with  the  pen. 

Q.  Who  did  he  send  it  by?  A.  Mr.  Mitchell,  I  think.  I  am 
pretty  sure.  Let  me  think  a  moment.  Mr.  Mitchell,  it  is  my 
understanding  of  it,  promised  to  put  one  at  least  into  Dr.  Babcock’s 
hands  himself. 

0.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  it  ever  reached  his  hands?  A. 
I  was  so  informed. 

Q.  That  they  were  received?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  informed  you  ?  A.  Mr. - . 

Q.  Mr.  Mitchell —  A.  Informed  him. 

Q.  He  informed  him?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  there  any  answer  made  to  the  request?  A.  None  at  all. 

Q.  What  was  the  request?  A.  The  request  was  either  to  be  dis¬ 
charged  or  to  be  given  some  work. 

Q.  Some  work?  A.  Some  remunerative  work.  As  he  had  had 
remunerative  work,  he  asked  that  he  be  discharged  from  the  institu¬ 
tion  or  given  other  remunerative  work  here. 

Q.  How  long  was  that  before  you  left?  A.  A  month  or  six 
weeks,  within  six  weeks  or  possibly  within  a  month,  possibly  a 
shorter  time  than  that. 

Q.  Was  there  no  reply  to  the  letter?  A.  No  reply. 

Q.  Did  Dr.  Babcock  see  Mr.  - ?  A.  Mr.  -  said  he  did 

not. 

Q.  Is  there  anything  else  you  want  to  refer  to  since  the  doctor 
has  come  in?  A.  I  want  to  mention  this.  Probably  later  on  testi¬ 
mony  may  be  offered  with  regard  to  Mr.  - ,  and  since  that 

matter  was  brought  up  I  recollect  the  evening  Mr.  -  came 

here  that  he  was  being  teased  by  the  attendant. 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  the  attendant?  A.  I  think  Stewart.  He 
was  teased.  I  think  he  had  some  peculiar  hallucination  about  where 
he  was.  He  was  calling  out  something  or  other  around  there,  and 
they  took  it  up  and  teased  him  about  it,  and  the  attendant  was  one 
of  those  who  took  part  in  doing  it. 

Q.  Who  were  the  others?  A.  Some  of  the  patients.  My  idea 
was  that  the  attendant  ought  to  have  stopped  it,  instead  of  that. 

Q.  You  think  Stewart  was  the  attendant  ?  A.  I  do,  but  I  am  not 
sure. 

Q.  Did  you  participate  in  that  teasing?  A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  Any  other  time?  A.  Of  him,  no. 


92 


Q.  Any  other  patient?  A.  I  did.  I  confessed  so  freely.  I  want 
to  say  this  in  justice  to  myself— as  I  got  better  I  got  interested  in 
other  things,  and  did  not. 

Q.  Did  the  other  patients  also  participate  in  teasing  much?  A. 
There  were  some  individuals  that  were  teased  a  good  deal  by  the 
patients. 

Q.  Did  you  know  Mr. - ?  A.  I  did. 

Q.  Did  he  get  any  mistreatment  in  here  that  you  know  of?  A. 
By  attendants? 

0.  Or  patients?  A.  He  was  in  a  pretty  bad  fix  when  he  came 
and  he  was  teased  some. 

Q.  Who  teased  him?  A.  I  recollect  one  of  the  patients  teased 
him.  I  don’t  recollect  any  nurse  teasing  him. 

Q.  Did  you  participate  in  any  of  that  teasing?  A.  No,  sir,  to 
my  recollection  I  did  not. 

The  Chairman — I  didn't  catch  your  answer  when  you  were  asked 
the  question  whether  the  teasing  was  done  in  a  pleasant  or  an 
unpleasant  way?  A.  I  emphatically  said  it  was  distasteful. 

An  adjournment  was  thereupon  had  until  3:30  P.  M. 

Pursuant  to  adjournment  the  Commission  met  at  3:30  o’clock 

P.  M.,  in  the  offices  at  the  Asylum  Building  this  5  May,  1909. 

Present :  The  members  of  the  Commission,  Chairman  Christen¬ 
sen  presiding. 

Mr.  - ,  recalled,  testified  as  follows : 

Mr.  Carey — Have  you  thought  over  your  testimony,  and  would 
you  like  to  make  any  explanation?  A.  I  would  like  to  express 
myself  rather  more  clearly  on  the  point  about  the  square  deal. 

0.  What  have  you  to  say?  A.  I  want  to  put  it  as  follows:  I 
was  given  a  square  deal  by  Mr.  Mitchell  personally,  Dr.  Thompson 
personally,  but  not  by  the  institution,  because  they  surrounded  me 
with  unhealthy  conditions,  and  left  me  to  struggle  and  get  well 
the  best  way  I  could  in  spite  of  them. 

Q.  Have  you  any  fault  to  lay  at  the  door  of  any  specific  part  of 
the  institution  that  you  thought  treated  you  wrong  while  here?  A. 
I  think  that  would  cover  it.  The  institution,  the  management,  did 
not  give  me  a  square  deal.  If  there  is  any  way  to  change  that,  it 
is  for  you  gentlemen  to  discover.  Of  course,  I  have  my  opinion, 
but  it  is  only  an  opinion. 


93 


Q.  How  long  were  you  in  here  before  you  saw  signs  of  getting 
better?  A.  Well,  I  was  in  here  and  the  unreal  things  became  fainter 
and  fainter  until  finally,  probably  a  month  before  I  left,  I  was  ready 
to  try  again. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  in  here  before  you  began  to  discover  that 
you  were  getting  better?  A.  I  could  find  that  out  in  this  way  for 
myself.  It  was  two  or  three  months  before  I  would  admit  that  I 

was  better.  I  think,  as  I  look  back  at  it  today,  these  unreal  expe¬ 

riences  became  fainter  and  fainter,  the  abnormal  things. 

Q.  So  you  progressed  while  here  pretty  well  towards  recovery? 
A.  It  depends  on  whether  two  years  was  necessary  or  less  time. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  about  it  for  the  condition  you  were  in 
when  you  came?  A.  I  don’t  see  why,  if  they  had  better  surrounings 
for  me,  the  time  could  not  have  been  shorter  than  that,  because  tbe 
breakdown  came,  that  is  to  say,  the  specific  breakdown  followed 
an  attempt  on  my  part,  while  suffering — fooling  yourself  into 

feeling  that  you  are  not  well,  and  a  little  Christian  science  using 

my  whole  strength  to  enable  me  to  correct  that.  This  puts  you  to 
great  effort  where  there  is  nothing  to  call  for  any  effort. 

Q.  You  were  studying  Christian  science?  A.  No,  sir,  not  at  all. 

Q.  Were  you  before  you  got  down?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  studying  on  any  particular  subject?  A.  No;  I 
had  been  up  in  North  Carolina  working  on  a  truck  farm  for  about 
six  weeks.  Then  I  went  to  Niagara  Falls. 

Q.  Was  your  breakdown  a  nervous  one?  A.  I  suppose  the 
doctors  could  answer  that  better  than  I  could. 

Q.  You  know  what  part  of  your  system  gave  you  trouble?  A. 
It  was  brain  and  nervous  I  suppose.  That  is  a  question  the 
doctors  can  answer  better  than  I  can.  The  hallucination  had  a 
religious  form.  That  is,  I  felt  that  I  was  lost  forever. 

Q.  You  were  despondent?  A.  Yes,  and  I  felt  that  I  was  directed 
as  if  by  a  duty  to  do  certain  things. 

Q.  How  long  before  you  came  the  first  time  had  the  hallucina¬ 
tion  been  troubling  you  ?  A.  The  first  time  ? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  Probably  two  or  three  days. 

Q.  Two  or  three  days?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  anything  of  the  Board  of  Regents  while  you 
were  in  here?  A.  Not  as  a  board.  I  saw  one  individual  at  one 
time  and  then  another. 

0.  Where  did  you  see  them?  A.  I  saw  one — Dr.  Ray — he  came 


94 


through  the  building  one  day,  and  I  saw  this  one,  a  member  of 
the  Board  of  Regents,  Dr.  Taylor.  I  saw  him  on  the  yard. 

Q.  Was  it  the  old  doctor?  A.  The  last  time  I  was  here  it  was 
the  young  doctor.  Are  you  speaking  of  the  first,  or  both  times? 

Q.  Did  you  ever  go  before  them  as  a  board?  A.  I  did  not. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  addressed  any  communications  to  them?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  You  never  brought  any  application  for  discharge  before  the 
board  itself?  A.  Not  that  I  know  of,  that  I  recollect,  no,  sir,  I 
depended  on  my  people  to  take  the  proper  steps,  and  I  spoke  to 
Dr.  Thompson  and  Dr.  Griffin  personally. 

Q.  In  this  second  attack,  how  long  did  you  come  to  yourself 
before  you  got  a  discharge?  A.  Before  I  got  that  discharge? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  I  was  better,  taking  interest  in  things  for  a  good 
while,  but  I  did  not  really  think  of  getting  out  until  I  had  a  visit 
from  a  member  of  my  family,  and  I  went  out  to  spend  the  day 
with  that  person  with  the  permission  of  the  physician,  and  I  felt  so 
well,  as  a  result  of  that  day,  that  I  concluded  that  it  would  be 
better  for  me  to  try  it  outside. 

Q.  How  long  was  that  before?  A.  I  don’t  know.  That  was 
about  a  month. 

Q.  Something  like  a  month?  A.  It  was  nearly  a  month. 

Q.  Was  it  after  that  feeling  came  over  you  that  you  began  to 
apply  for  your  discharge?  A.  This  member  of  my  family,  I  think, 
spoke  about  it  here  to  one  of  the  physicians,  and  then  I  had  my 
brother  to  come  over  here.  He  talked  with  the  doctor  and  he 
talked  with  Dr.  Saunders.  He  did  not  see  Dr.  Babcock,  and  Dr. 
Thompson  was  away,  and  he  took  steps  after  that  together  with 
my  father. 

Q.  What  was  the  feeling  of  your  father  as  to  your  being  kept 
here?  A.  He  thinks  that  I  was  dismissed  as  soon  as  it  was  proper 
to  do  so. 

Q.  Your  father  thought  so?  A.  Oh,  yes,  sir. 

0.  How  about  yourself?  A.  I  think  so,  and  I  heartily  agree 
with  them  myself,  for  I  was  dismissed  within  a  reasonable  time. 

Q.  Were  any  papers  signed  the  last  time?  A.  I  understand  not. 

Q.  The  last  time,  then,  you  got  a  free,  unconditional  discharge, 
did  you?  A.  That  is  my  understanding,  sir. 

Q.  As  to  your  own  case,  you  did  not  feel  that  you  were  unreasona¬ 
bly  kept  here  after  you  were  prepared  to  leave?  A.  No,  I  did 
not  feel  that. 


95 


Q.  Is  there  anything  else  that  occurs  to  you  in  the  way  of 
explanation  ?  A.  I  failed  to  make  this  answer  to  your  question  with 
reference  to  inside  changes  I  thought  ought  to  be  made  here.  That 
is  the  whole  object  of  this  investigation,  if  there  is  to  be  anything 
changed.  All  the  things  I  would  have  to  set  down  here  would  take 
a  small  volume. 

Q.  Of  course,  we  don’t  expect  you  to  cover  those  things.  That 
would  come  from  other  quarters.  We  are  asking  about  matters 
embraced  in  the  statements  and  affidavits  made  in  connection  with 
these  charges.  A.  You  asked  me  if  I  thought  any  changes  ought 
to  be  made  here.  You  asked  the  question  and  insisted  on  an 
answer  from  the  point  of  view  of  a  man  on  the  inside,  who  had 
been  on  the  inside  as  I  had  been. 

Q.  You  gave  it.  A.  As  I  say,  I  did  not  feel  that  the  answer 
covered  everything  that  should  be  covered.  I  stand  by  what  I  have 
said. 

Q.  Do  you  wish  to  add  anything?  A.  I  feel  that  I  could  sum  it 
up  without  going  into  details  too  much. 

Q.  Sum  it  up?  A.  I  had  a  feeling  that  the  management  was 
behind  the  times  in  different  ways,  and  that  it  ought  to  be  changed 
to  something  progressive  and  showing  interest  in  the  patients. 
That  sums  it  up. 

Q.  Is  the  Legislature  at  fault  or  those  running  the  institution? 
A.  To  our  ideas  it  seemed  to  be  those  running  the  institution. 
That  is  my  view  of  it. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  if  the  management  had  sufficient  funds  they 
would  make  these  improvements?  A.  I  think  if  they  had  sufficient 
funds  they  would  do  better  than  they  do.  On  this  line,  would 
you  like  for  me  to  answer  on  ? 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  much  per  capita  the  management  had? 
A.  No,  sir,  I  have  read  of  it  since. 

Q.  Do  you  know  now?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  much  per  capita  did  they  have?  A.  I  don’t  recollect.  I 
have  not  held  that  in  my  mind. 

Q.  You  did  know,  but  don’t  remember?  A.  No,  sir,  I  don’t 
remember  it. 

The  Chairman — I  would  like  to  ask  Mr.  -  this  question : 

Many  of  these  matters  of  which  you  have  spoken  this  morning  in 
the  way  of  complaint — may  be  they  are  a  part  of  your  hallucination  ? 
A.  Impossible.  They  were  not,  absolutely  not. 


96 


Q.  How  are  you  certain  of  that?  A.  Because  I  can  recollect  my 
whole  experience,  and  I  know  what  is  hallucination  and  what  is 
not.  For  instance,  I  know  that  I  felt  that  I  was  commanded  to  do 
a  certain  thing,  and  that  that  was  a  hallucination,  but  I  also  know 
of  circumstances  connected  with  it  that  were  not  hallucinations. 
Take  the  instance  of  the  attendant  that  hit  me  with  the  strap.  The 
hallucination  was  that  I  was  commanded  to  show  disrespect  to 
him  as  I  did.  I  remember  that  very  distinctly,  but  there  was  no 
hallucination  about  the  strapping. 

Mr.  - ,  white,  sworn,  says : 

Mr.  Carey — What  county  are  you  a  native  of?  A.  Abbeville. 

Q.  Born  and  raised  in  Abbeville?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  age  now?  A.  43. 

Q.  Have  you  a  family?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Any  children?  A.  Yes,  sir,  a  wife  and  five  children. 

Q.  All  alive?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  they  raised  in  Abbeville?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  reside  there  now?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  been  residing  there  since  you  left  this  institution? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  ago  was  that  ?  A.  That  has  been  about  five  months 
ago. 

Q.  About  five  months?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  were,  I  believe,  at  one  time  an  inmate  of  this  institution? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  Did  your  mind  get  wrong?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  came  here  for  treatment?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  At  whose  instance  were  you  sent  here — your  relatives?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

0.  They  thought  you  were  in  such  a  condition  that  you  would 
be  benefited  by  coming  here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Your  wife  thought  that?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  suppose  so. 

Q.  Were  you  committed  regularly  by  the  county  authorities, 
by  the  Probate  Judge  and  examined  by  physicians?  A.  Yes, 
sir — I  don’t  remember. 

0.  Do  you  remember  what  physicians?  A.  No,  sir.  I  was  too 
sick  to  know  anything.  I  was  down  and  did  not  know  anything. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  now  those  matters  since  you  have  got 
straight?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  You  know  you  were  examined  by  physicians?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


97 


Q.  And  brought  here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  distinctly  recollect  when  you  were  brought  here? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  can’t  now?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  recollect  anything  that  took  place  in  here  while  you 
were  an  inmate  of  the  institution?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  your  recollection  clear  on  the  points?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  When  you  first  came  here  where  were  you  put?  A.  On  the 
seventh  ward. 

0.  On  the  seventh  ward?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  had  charge  of  you  here  medically?  A.  Mr.  Bookman. 

Q.  I  mean  physician?  A.  Dr.  Thompson. 

Q.  What  attendants  were  on  that  ward,  nurses?  A.  Bookman. 

Q.  Any  other  one?  A.  Yes,  sir.  There  was  another,  but  I  can’t 
think  of  his  name.  He  was  a  young  man. 

Q.  Mr.  Syfan,  when  you  first  came  here,  were  you  in  pretty  bad 
shape?  A.  I  was  in  a  terrible  fix.  I  had  been  in  Baltimore  for 
cancer  of  the  bowels,  and  I  had  the  joint  of  my  backbone  taken 
out  for  cancer  of  my  bowels.  I  could  not  tell  you  half.  I  was 
in  a  terrible  fix.  I  was  in  great  distress. 

Q.  Did  that  bring  on  the  cancer?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  was  working 
hard. 

Q.  How  long  after  the  operation  was  it  before  you  were  brought 
here  ?  A.  I  suppose  five  or  six  months,  may  be  it  was  longer  than 
that. 

0.  What  institution  did  you  have  that  operation  performed  in — 
Johns  Hopkins?  A.  No,  sir,  St.  Josephs. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  stay  up  there?  A.  I  staid  up  there  about 
thirty  days. 

Q.  Was  your  mind  in  pretty  good  shape  while  you  were  there? 
A.  Yes,  sir.  I  came  back  and  went  to  work  on  the  Seaboard 
afterwards.  I  ran  a  stationary  engine  there  for  about  seven  months, 
I  think. 

Q.  Can  you  recollect  the  date  you  reached  here  ?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  in  here?  A.  The  first  time? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  I  think  it  was  about  thirty  days. 

Q.  Meaning  the  time  you  came?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  the  time  you  first  came?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  month  and  year?  A.  No.  I  don’t  think  I  can. 

0.  You  can’t  recollect  the  time  ?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  came  back  again?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


7— A. 


98 


Q.  When  did  you  come  back  again?  A.  In  1906. 

Q.  Was  the  first  time  you  were  here  in  1905?  A.  I  think  so.  I 
went  home  and  staid  nine  months  and  came  back. 

Q.  In  1906?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  stay  continuously  from  the  time  you  came  in  1906 
until  you  were  discharged?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  did  not  go  home  any  more?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  When  did  you  get  discharged?  A.  I  had  to  get  a  lawyer. 

Q.  When  was  it  you  got  out  of  here?  A.  In  1908. 

Q.  What  time  did  you  get  out  in  1908 — in  October?  A.  It  was 
a  day  or  two  before. 

Q.  Of  last  year?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Syfan,  what  attentions  were  shown  you  by  the  authori¬ 
ties  here  when  you  first  came?  A.  When  I  first  found  myself  I 
was  in  a  pretty  bad  fix.  In  about  three  weeks  I  got  up  and  wrote 
a  letter  on  my  knees  to  my  wife.  I  found  myself  on  the  seventh 
ward  on  the  naked  floor,  and  I  was  sore  from  here  to  here  (indicat¬ 
ing). 

Q.  You  were  sore?  A.  I  was  galded  to  death. 

Q.  Was  that  when  you  first  came  to  yourself?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  caused  that  soreness?  A.  Lying  in  my 
filth,  I  suppose. 

0.  Can  you  remember  lying  in  your  filth  during  that  time?  A. 
Yes,  sir.  You  see  I  have  got  no  control  of  my  bowels  whatever. 

Q.  You  had  not  at  that  time?  A.  Not  now.  All  my  actions 
come  on  cotton. 

Q.  Did  the  attendants  over  the  ward  you  were  in  pay  any 
attention  to  you  ?  A.  Very  little,  only  when  Dr.  Thompson  would 
come  around  they  would  come  around.  I  had  laid  there  for  hours 
and  hours. 

Q.  When  you  would  be  on  the  floor?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  didn’t  have  room  on  the  ward?  A.  I  had  a  room  on 
the  seventh  ward. 

Q.  Did  you  have  a  bed?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Where  did  you  sleep?  A.  On  the  floor. 

Q.  No  bed  provided  for  you?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  No  pallet  nor  anything?  A.  You  see  they  knew  my  bowels 
were  in  bad  shape. 

Q.  Is  that  the  reason  you  didn’t  sleep  on  a  bed,  the  condition 
of  your  bowels?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  the  attendants  do  to  relieve  you  of  that  condition? 


99 


A.  They  didn’t  do  anything  much.  They  would  come  and  wipe 
me  off.  I  remember  once  Dr.  Thompson  came  around  and  saw 
what  a  fix  I  was  in  and  he  got  one  of  those  wall  syringes  and 
washed  me  off.  Before  that  this  fellow  Harmon,  a  patient  down 
here,  came  down  there  and  I  was  so  awfully  sore.  He  sent  and  got 
a  pan  and  was  washing  me  off,  just  had  an  old  cloth  and  was 
rubbing  me,  and  I  could  hardly  stand  it,  and  I  said  please  get 
away  I  could  not  stand  that,  and  he  rammed  my  head  up  against 
the  wall. 

Q.  He  is  here  now?  A.  Yes,  sir;  and  Dr.  Thompson  came  along 
and  I  asked  him  to  bathe  me,  and  he  had  a  tub  sent,  and  he  says, 
you  must  be  more  careful.  I  heard  him  on  the  outside  of  the  door. 

Q.  To  whom,  one  of  the  attendants?  A.  He  sent  a  solution  to 
wash  me  with.  The  attendant  did  not  come  often  enough  and  I  got 
that  fellow  Harmon.  I  told  him  to  come  and  get  me  some  good 
water,  and  I  would  give  him  twenty-five  cents  a  week  to  bring 
water  and  bathe  me  oftener,  and  he  did  it.  He  was  anxious  to  get 
the  money.  I  gave  him  the  money. 

Q.  After  the  agreement  with  Harmon,  did  he  give  you  good 
attention?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  kept  you  clean?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  make  a  complaint  about  the  nurses  allowing  you 
to  lie  there  in  your  own  filth?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  did  make  complaints. 

Q.  Who  did  you  make  complaints  to?  A.  To  old  man  Book¬ 
man.  I  told  him  he  ought  to  be  ashamed  of  himself. 

0.  He  was  a  nurse?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  make  any  complaint  to  Mr.  Mitchell,  Dr.  Thompson 
or  Dr.  Babcock?  A.  I  can’t  remember.  I  will  not  say  that  I  did. 

Q.  You  can’t  say  that  you  did?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  Dr.  Thompson  or  the  dispenser  either  see  you  in  that 
condition,  when  you  were  lying  there  in  that  condition  ?  A.  I  don’t 
think  he  did.  I  could  not  be  sure  whether  he  did  or  not. 

O.  How  about  Mr.  Mitchell?  A.  Mr.  Mitchell?  No,  I  don’t 
think  I  ever  saw  him  there.  I  have  seen  Dr.  Thompson  come  to 
the  door  once,  and  I  called  him  and  lie  asked  me  a  few  questions, 
and  he  says,  “You  are  coming  on  very  well.  You  are  getting  on 
nicely,’’  and  then  I  began  to  get  better  attention. 

Q.  You  felt  you  were  getting  better?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  was  a 
mighty  weak  man. 

Q.  After  you  had  that  conference  with  Dr.  Thompson  you  got 
better  attention?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


lOO 


\ 

Q.  How  long  had  you  been  here  up  to  that  time?  A.  I  could  not 
state  exactly  how  long  it  was  that  I  was  here. 

Q.  From  then  on  you  got  good  attention?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  other  complaint  of  your  own  treatment  against 
any  of  the  authorities  ?  A.  No,  sir.  After  I  got  out  so  that  I  could 
walk  I  was  treated  all  right. 

Q.  By  everybody?  A.  By  everybody.  Everybody  seemed  to 
like  me.  I  was  treated  all  right. 

Q.  Did  any  other  nurse  ever  mistreat  you?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  had 
to  report  several  nurses,  and,  of  course,  that  would  make  them  have 
hard  feelings. 

Q.  What  did  you  report?  A.  I  reported  several.  I  reported 
Stewart  for  beating  Mr. - . 

Q.  Who  did  you  make  that  report  to  ?  A.  Dr.  Thompson. 

O.  What  was  his  condition?  A.  Well,  I  called  Dr.  Thompson 
in  one  morning.  Let  me  explain.  Mr.  Stewart  came  down  on  the 
first  ward,  and  we  had  some  patients  there  that  was  mighty  bad, 
and  if  you  went  into  their  room  they  would  knock  you  down  or 
beat  you  up.  I  was  trying  to  toll  him  up  towards  the  front  door, 
and  I  met  Dr.  Thompson  coming  down  stairs,  and  I  says,  “Dr.,  I 

was  trying  to  get  Mr.  -  out  of  the  way,”  I  says,  “What 

ward  does  he  belong  to?”  He  says,  “The  sixth  ward.”  He  says, 

“Mr. - ,  I  wish  you  would  take  him  up  to  the  sixth  ward  and  turn 

him  over  to  Mr.  Stewart.”  I  says,  “All  right,  doctor.”  I  had  trouble 
with  him.  He  was  wild  and  contrary,  but  I  coaxed  and  got  him 
up  on  the  sixth  ward,  and  turned  him  over  to  Mr.  Stewart.  I 

says,  "Here  is  Mr.  - .  Doctor  told  me  to  bring  him  up.” 

“Well,  turn  him  loose,”  he  says,  and  I  came  on  down.  That 

Sunday  afternoon  Mr.  -  was  back  on  that  ward,  and  Mr. 

Stewart  came  down  after  him,  and  he  says,  “Go  on,  Mr.  - , 

go  up  to  your  ward,”  and  he  says,  “No,  I  tell  you  Mr.  Stewart — ” 

Q.  That  was  Mr.  - ?  A.  I  says,  “Oh,  no,  Mr.  - , 

you1  must  go  with  your  watchman  now,”  and  I  caught  hold  of  one 
side  of  his  arm  and  Mr.  Stewart  caught  hold  of  the  other,  and  as 
I  caught  hold  of  him  he  hauls  oft"  and  hits  him  as  hard  as  he  could 
with  his  fist.  My  temper  got  up.  I  says,  “You  will  never  get  me  to 
help  you  with  a  man  when  you  have  got  to  beat  him,”  and  it  was 
all  I  could  do  to  hold  myself.  I  had  to  walk  away  from  him. 
When  the  doctor  came  down  I  reported  it  to  him. 

Q.  What  did  the  doctor  say?  A.  He  thanked  me  two  or  three 
times.  He  said  he  would  attend  to  it. 


IOI 


Q.  What  became  of  Stewart?  He  is  here. 

Q.  Was  he  discharged?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  tell  him  you  had  seen  that?  A.  Yes,  sir.  He  told 
me  I  was  all  the  witness  he  wanted. 

Q.  Was  -  doing  anything  besides  refusing  to  go  with 

him?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  He  did  not  offer  to  strike  him?  A.  Mr. - ? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  No  sir.  He  was  harmless.  He  would  not  hurt  you. 

Q.  You  say  he  struck  him  with  his  fist  and  kicked  him?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  walked  off?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  became  of - .  Is  he  here  yet?  A.  No,  sir.  He 

went  home  after  I  left,  so  I  heard. 

Q.  How  long  after  that  before  he  went  home?  A.  After  what? 

Q.  How  long  after  that  occurrence  before  he  left  here?  A.  I 
don’t  know  exactly  how  long,  two  or  three  months,  I  suppose. 

0.  Do  you  know  how  long  -  had  been  here  when  that 

happened?  A.  I  could  not  state  that  either. 

Q.  Is  Stewart  here  yet,  or  do  you  know?  A.  Stewart? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  is  still  here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  any  other  assault  on  any  patient  by  a  keeper  ? 
A.  I  saw  the  same  man,  but  I  can’t  recollect  the  patient.  He  is  in 
the  Taylor  building. 

0.  Did  you  know  all  the  patients  Mr. - mentioned?  A.  No, 

sir. 

Q.  - , - ,  - ?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  None  of  them?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Who  made  the  assault  on  him  ?  A.  Stewart. 

Q.  This  same  man?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  was  that?  A.  That  was  about,  I  suppose,  a  month  as 
near  as  I  can  come  at  it.  He  was  coming  down  the  ward,  and 
this  fellow  in  the  Taylor  building  got  after  Stewart  about  locking 
him  up  on  the  fifth  ward.  He  caught  him  up  there  and  locked  him 
up,  and  Stewart  was  sort  of  scared  to  tackle  him,  and  he  called 
Mr.  Wilson  to  come  up  and  help  him,  and  they  grabbed  him,  Mr. 
Stewart  hit  him  and  beat  him  like  everything.  Mr.  Wilson  says, 
“Look  here,  I  can’t  hold  a  man  and  let  you  beat  him.  You  have 
got  to  turn  him  loose.” 

Q.  Who  is  Mr.  Wilson?  A.  He  is  here. 


102 


Q.  Was  he  one  of  the  nurses  at  that  time?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  was 
on  the  ward  with  him  for  a  year. 

Q.  Is  he  connected  with  the  institution  now?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  since  he  left  ?  A.  He  says  he  has  been  quit  about  a 
month. 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Wilson  see  that  assault?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  is  the  same  man  sitting  here?  A.  Yes,  sir.  . 

Q.  Did  you  make  any  report  of  that?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  did  not  report  that  to  anybody?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  Pressley  assaulted,  patient  Pressley?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  - ?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  - ?  A.  No,  sir.  I  saw  him  afterwards.  I  did  not  see 

them  when  they  did  it,  but  I  saw  him  afterwards. 

0.  Saw  which  one?  A.  - . 

Q.  Tell  us  about  that?  A.  There  were  Smith  and  Durham  who 
were  on  the  ward. 

Q.  Which  Smith?  A.  Will  Smith,  I  believe. 

Q.  They  were  nurses?  A.  On  the  first  ward,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  assaulted  him  ?  A.  There  was  Smith.  He  was  off  that 
afternoon,  and  it  was  supper  time,  and  I  was  helping  to  get  out  the 
food.  I  helped  the  plates  and  I  put  them  all  around,  and  I  said, 

“Where  is  - ?”  and  Smith  says,  “I  don’t  know  where  he  is,  I 

will  go  and  hunt  him  up,”  and  I  was  busy  fixing  the  plates  and 
handing  them  around.  The  next  thing  I  saw,  here  he  came  shoving 
him  and  kicking  him,  and  the  next  thing  he  was  down  on  the  floor, 
and  he  kicked  him  on  the  shins. 

Q.  - kicked  him?  A.  Yes,  sir;  he  was  on  the  floor. 

Q.  Both  of  the  nurses?  A.  Both  of  the  nurses  jumped  on  him. 
They  got  on  him  and  choked  and  kicked  him  from  the  lower  part 
of  the  ward  plumb  up  to  the  upper  end,  and  threw  him  into  his  room. 

Q.  What  was  the  reason  for  assaulting  him?  A.  He  would  not 
come  as  fast  as  Smith  wanted  him  to  come. 

Q.  To  the  ward?  A.  To  his  meal. 

Q.  That  was  the  cause  of  the  assault?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  report  that  to  anybody?  A.  Dr.  Thompson. 
I  tried  to  do  it  that  night. 

Q.  When  was  it  reported  to  Dr.  Thompson?  A.  Next  morning. 

Q.  What  did  the  doctor  say?  A.  He  thanked  me  for  it,  and 
went  on  and  examined  Bailey.  He  went  from  my  room  to  his. 

Q.  Was  Bailey  hurt  much?  A.  He  had  a  little  scratch  here 
(indicating).  It  was  here  and  in  the  sides.  He  knew  where  to  hit 


103 


to  keep  it  from  showing.  I  was  watching  them  there  inside  of  the 

room.  I  was  standing  at  the  door,  and - came  to  me  and  says, 

“Dr.  Thompson  ought  to  see  that  man,”  and  I  went  to  the  second 
ward  and  searched  to  see  if  I  could  get  Dr.  Thompson.  He  was 
lying  on  the  floor  with  his  clothes  up. 

Q.  What  was  his  condition?  A.  I  could  not  tell  you  what  was  the 
matter.  I  could  not  tell  you  anything. 

Q.  Was  he  harmless?  A.  Harmless?  If  you  ordered  him  or 
shoved  him  around  he  would  kick  and  cause  trouble. 

Q.  Was  he  disposed  to  be  contrary,  or  would  he  mind  the 
attendant?  A.  He  always  minded  me.  I  bathed  him  every  week 
and  never  had  any  trouble  with  him.  I  carried  him  to  the  bath  tub 
and  bathed  him,  and  put  on  his  clothes. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  other  act  of  violence?  A.  Yes,  sir,  a  sight 
of  them. 

Q.  Others?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  by  what  keepers  they  were,  or  not?  A.  Well, 
I  will  have  to  think  awhile. 

Q.  Give  us  such  instances  as  occur  to  you,  if  you  can  remember. 
If  you  can’t,  just  make  a  general  statement?  A.  I  would  rather 
wait  awhile  and  go  on  with  something  else. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  us  what  became  of  Smith  and  Durham  that 
assaulted  that  man?  A.  They  were  on  the  ward.  Smith  came  to 
me  after  I  reported  him,  the  next  night,,  and  he  gave  me  some  pretty 
rough  talk. 

Q.  Gave  you  some?  A.  Yes,  sir,  he  said,  “You  didn’t  have 
anything  to  do  with  it.”  Came  to  me  the  next  morning,  came  to  me, 
to  my  room,  and  I  says,  “What  is  it  you  want?”  He  says,  “I  hear 
you  are  going  to  report  us  to  Dr.  Thompson.”  I  says,  “What  did  I 
tell  you  when  I  came  on  the  ward.”  I  says,  “If  you  are 
in  the  right,  I  will  stick  by  you.”  I  says,  “My  efforts  are  to  help 
suffering  humanity,”  and  I  says,  “I  will  go  down  and  do  anything 
for  them,  for  I  have  been  a  sufferer  myself,”  and  I  says,  “If  you 
kill  me  all  you  have  got  to  do  is  to  kill  me,  but  I  will  not  uphold 
you  in  this.” 

Q.  What  about  that  matter  of  reports?  Would  they  give  you 
trouble  when  you  reported  these  nurses?  A.  Yes,  sir;  yes,  sir;  they 
would  give  me  bricks  for  awhile  .  Durham  Brown  came  into  my 
room,  and  he  was  begging  me  not  to  report  them.  He  says,  “Now, 
Mr.  Syfan,  don’t  report  us  to  the  doctor  this  time.  It  will  never 
happen  any  more.”  I  says,  “I  am  going  to  do  my  duty,  sir,  and  I 


104 


will  feel  that  my  skirts  are  clear.  I  am  going  to  let  it  be  known 
to  Dr.  Thompson.”  Every  man  on  the  ward  came  to  me.  They 
all  saw  it.  They  gathered  around  me,  and  says,  ‘‘You  can  get  a 
hearing  from  Dr.  Thompson,  and  it  is  your  duty  to  go  and  report  it.” 

Q.  Those  were  the  patients?  A.  Every  one  on  the  first  floor 
says  it  is  your  duty.  They  said,  ‘‘You  can  get  a  hearing  from  Dr. 
Thompson,  and  you  go  and  make  the  report.” 

O.  Did  you  get  the  hearing?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  the  doctor  do?  A.  He  thanked  me,  and  said  as 
I  said  before,  and  went  to  see  the  fellow. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  any  instances  of  teasing  and  cursing  patients 
by  any  of  them  ?  A.  That  was  done  a  good  deal. 

Q.  Was  it  done  without  cause?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Did  they  do  you  that  way  any?  A.  No,  sir.  I  never  would 
allow  them.  I  never  would  let  them  treat  me  in  that  way.  They 
knew  I  did  not  take  any  stock  in  anything  like  that. 

O.  Did  you  participate  in  that  yourself,  teasing  and  worrying 
patients?  A.  No,  sir.  I  tried  to  be  a  help  to  them. 

Q.  These  keepers  you  spoke  of,  were  they  young  men  or  old 
men?  A.  Young  men,  all  but  Mr.  Bookman.  He  was  the  oldest 
man. 

Q.  What  was  the  general  demeanor— kind  to  them — the  nurses 
generally?  A.  Well,  they  were  pretty  rough  to  them,  most  of  them. 

Q.  Did  any  of  them  need  rough  treatment?  A.  Some  did. 

Q.  Some  did?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  helped  to  put  them  in  their 
rooms  myself. 

Q.  For  violent  conduct?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  fed  them  when 
the  ward  men  were  scared  to  go  in. 

Q.  Scared?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  attended  to  them  and  never  got  a 
scratch.  They  would  knock  the  milk  over  me,  but  when  I  got  the 
cup  to  their  mouths  they  would  drink  it  right  down. 

Q.  They  would  take  it  from  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  And  would  not  take  it  from  the  nurses?  A.  It  seemed  like 
I  could  get  it  into  them.  I  would  have  more  patience,  I  reckon. 

0.  The  first  is  what  is  known  as  the  best  ward?  A.  No,  sir. 

O.  What  is  that?  A.  The  first  is  the  feeble  ward. 

Q.  The  feeble  ward?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  How  was  the  food  on  that  ward?  A.  Well,  sir,  it  was  pretty 
tough. 

0.  Did  you  all  take  your  meals  in  the  ward  or  in  the  mess  hall? 
A.  In  the  ward. 


io5 


Q.  Did  you  have  a  dining  room  in  the  ward?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  it  was  pretty  tough.  In  what  respect  was  it  tough? 
A.  The  food,  some  of  it,  we  could  not  eat.  I  could  not.  I  served 
the  food  there  for  a  year. 

Q.  You  served  it?  A.  I  helped  fix  it,  and  carry  it  and  put  it  to 
the  places.  We  would  have  hominy,  and  we  would  get  three  or  four 
eggs  and  milk,  sweet  milk,  and  chicken  soup. 

Q.  Three  or  four  apiece?  A.  No,  sir,  for  the  ward.  There 
were  from  eighteen  to  twenty  on  the  first  ward,  and  we  would 
have  chicken  soup,  eggs  and  hominy  and  rice. 

Q.  How  was  the  rice  cooked,  pretty  well?  A.  No,  sir,  I  could  not 
eat  it. 

O.  What  was  the  objection  to  it?  A.  It  was  glue. 

Q.  Glue?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  about  the  hominy  ?  A.  The  hominy  was  pretty  tough. 

Q.  The  coffee?  A.  It  was  rough. 

Q.  Weak?  A.  Yes,  sir,  tasteless. 

0.  Clean  ?  A.  I  could  not  tell  whether  it  was  clean  or  not. 

Q.  Served  in  a  clean  dish  ?  A.  Sometimes  the  dishes  were  pretty 
rough.  The  cups  were  greasy,  black  and  beaten  up. 

Q.  Tin  dishes?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Cups  tin?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  about  the  soup?  A.  Sometimes  the  soup  was  very  nice. 
We  got  very  nice  soup. 

Q.  The  vegetables?  A.  Pretty  tough. 

Q.  The  vegetables  themselves  or  the  cooking?  A.  The  cook¬ 
ing.  The  vegetables,  when  they  came  from  the  farm,  were  very 
nice.  It  was  the  managing  of  them  after  they  came  here.  At  times 
it  was  good,  and  then  you  would  find  hard  lumps  in  the  grub. 

Q.  That  was  in  the  bread?  A.  Yes,  sir,  corn  bread,  pretty  tough. 

Q.  Meats?  A.  We  didn’t  get  any. 

Q.  They  didn’t  serve  you  meats?  A.  Nothing  but  boiled  meats, 
and  a  little  fried  chicken  occasionally. 

Q.  Was  the  bacon  raised  on  the  farm?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Bought  bacon?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Milk?  A.  Pretty  tough. 

Q.  What  was  the  objection  to  the  milk?  A.  Well,  sir,  when  you 
go  to  pour  out  the  milk  you  can  see  a  great  deal  of  settlement  at 
the  bottom,  black,  dirty  settlement  at  the  bottom.  After  you  pour 
to  the  bottom  it  was  pretty  rough. 


io6 

Q.  All  the  time,  or  just  at  times?  A.  It  was  worse  at  times,  you 
know. 

Q.  What  was  that  sediment — dirt?  A.  Filth. 

Q.  Did  you  know  where  the  milk  came  from?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  go  to  the  dairy?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  it  was  kept?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  ?  A.  Pretty  rough. 

O.  Who  did  the  milking?  A.  Patients. 

0.  Colored  or  white?  A.  Colored. 

Q.  Who  was  in  charge  of  the  dairy?  Who  was  at  the  head  of  it? 
A.  Mr.  Hedgepath. 

Q.  He  was  superintendent  of  it?  A.  I  suppose  so.  He  was  the 
man  that  ran  it. 

Q.  How  about  the  cows,  good  cows?  A.  Very  good  nice  cows. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  the  milking  going  on?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  they  cleanly  in  milking?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  they  conduct  it?  A.  I  used  to  go  out  there  and 
shell  up  the  corn  and  everything.  That  is  where  we  get  our  sacks 
to  get  corn  from  the  corn  crib,  and  Mr.  Hendrix  was  to  detail  a 

man,  and  he  says,  “ -  come  on  and  go  with  me  to  the  dairy 

and  get  some  sacks  to  put  the  corn  in,”  and  I  went  there,  and  I  saw 
those  crazy  fellows  milking.  During  the  time  they  were  milking 
they  were  chewing  and  spitting  across  the  bucket,  chewing  tobacco, 
and  I  saw  a  cow  that  had  her  foot  in  filth  raise  it  and  set  it  in  the 
bucket,  and  I  was  looking  for  him  to  wash  it  out,  and  he  just 
milked  right  on  into  the  bucket. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  name  of  the  negro?  A.  No,  sir.  I  says,  “I 
wish  I  hadn’t  come  here.”  and  he  said  this  was  nothing. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  the  milking  going  on  on  any  other  occasion  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  several  times. 

Q.  Did  this  man  Hedgepath  have  the  superintendency  of  the 
milking?  Was  he  connected  with  the  milking?  A.  He  was  down 
to  the  lower  side. 

0.  Was  he  superintendent  of  that  part  of  the  farm?  Was  that 
his  business?  A.  That  was  his  business. 

Q.  Was  he  present  when  the  milking  was  going  on?  A.  No,  sir, 
he  was  at  the  lower  side. 

Q.  Did  you  report  it  to  him  ?  A.  No,  sir,  I  reported  it  to  Hendrix. 

Q.  Who  was  he?  A.  He  was  my  keeper  at  the  time. 

Q.  What  did  Hendrix  say?  A.  He  says,  “Oh,  well,  it  is  no  use 


reporting  anything.”  I  says,  ‘‘Why  don’t  you  report  that?”  He  says, 
“Oh,  it  is  no  use.  When  it  goes  to  the  kitchen  it  is  the  same  thing.” 

Q.  Was  it  the  same  thing  in  the  kitchen?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  in  there  much?  A.  I  was  in  there  several  times. 

Q.  What  filth  did  you  discover  in  there?  A.  Those  patients. 
The  work  was  mostly  done  by  the  patients. 

Q.  Were  they  doing  the  cooking?  A.  Principally. 

Q.  White  or  colored?  A.  Colored. 

Q.  Men?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  wrould  see  them  come  from  the  mill 
with  our  grits,  and  they  never  washed  it  at  all. 

Q.  They  did  not?  A.  Nobody  did. 

Q.  Hominy?  A.  Meal  too. 

Q.  Was  the  meal  used  by  the  institution  ground  here?  A.  Yes, 
sir.  I  have  been  to  the  mill  while  it  was  going  on,  and  saw  them 
when  they  got  it  from  there,  and  saw  them  when  they  fed  it  to 
the  patients  without  washing  it. 

Q.  When  they  got  through  milking,  what  did  they  do  with  the 
milk?  A.  They  would  bring  it  to  the  house. 

Q.  Bring  it  to  the  house?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  go  in  there  and  examine  the  milk?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  it  was  managed  after  it  was  brought  here? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  that?  A.  I  don’t  know. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  about  that?  A.  I  don’t  know,  sir. 

Q.  Was  it  kept  in  an  outhouse  before  it  was  called  for,  before  it 
was  called  for  to  be  served?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  the  patients  drink  it  up  ?  A.  Some  would,  and  some 
would  not. 

Q.  Did  they  complain  against  it  much?  A.  Not  a  great  deal. 
On  my  ward  there  were  not  very  many  that  would  eat  enough  to 
know. 

Q.  Did  they  have  pretty  good  appetites?  A.  Some  did  and  some 
didn’t. 

Q.  Most  of  them  on  your  ward  were  epileptics  ?  A.  No,  sir,  we 
had  a  good  many  who  were  not. 

Q.  You  had  a  very  serious  bowel  trouble.  How  did  the  food 
agree  with  you?  A.  I  ate  very  little.  I  had  to  drink  milk. 

Q.  And  eggs  ?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  got  eggs. 

Q.  How  often  did  you  get  eggs?  A.  I  got  eggs  three  times  a 
day. 

Q.  Very  nice?  A.  No,  sir,  pretty  tough. 


io8 


Q.  How  are  they  cooked?  A.  They  would  come  in  right  hard 
around  the  whites,  the  yellow  soft. 

Q.  Fried?  A.  Fried,  I  suppose,  on  a  pan,  mighty  dirty  under¬ 
neath.  I  took  a  knife  and  peeled  it  off  underneath  before  I  would 
try  to  eat  them. 

0.  Did  you  ever  have  any  instructions  about  extras  down  here? 
A.  Yes,  sir.  I  asked  them  to  let  me  have  coffee.  I  said  I  would 
furnish  my  own  coffee  if  they  would  boil  it  down  there,  but  they 
said  if  one  started  it,  all  would  want  to  have  it,  and  they  would  not 
allow  it. 

0.  Did  they  serve  any  butter  on  your  ward?  A.  Oleomargarine. 

Q.  Was  it  pretty'good?  A.  I  could  not  eat  it. 

Q.  Was  it  clean?  A.  Well,  it  looked  very  well. 

Q.  What  kind  of  dishes  was  it  served  in?  A.  Tin  plates. 

0.  Each  patient  would  have  some  on  his  plate?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  all  the  patients  complain  at  the  butter?  A.  Yes,  sir, 
they  said  they  could  not  eat  it. 

Q.  Who  would  bring  this  food  into  the  ward  to  be  served?  A. 
I  would  help  to  do  it  sometimes. 

Q.  From  the  kitchen?  A.  From  the  fourth  ward.  It  would  come 
up  in  an  elevator. 

Q.  Whose  business  was  it  to  bring  it?  A.  I  suppose  the  nurses, 
but  I  helped  them  serve  it.  They  would  ask  me  to  do  it. 

Q.  These  patients  that  were  doing  the  cooking  down  there,  were 
they  cleanly  themselves  ?  A.  Patients  ? 

Q.  That  were  doing  the  cooking,  did  they  keep  themselves  clean  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  about  the  milking?  A.  They  were  dirty.  They  would 
be  handling  the  meal,  and  they  would  be  dusty  with  cottonseed 
meal  (you  know  how  a  man  looks  with  cottonseed  meal  on  him), 
and  they  would  be  raking  out  the  stables,  and  they  would  have 
cottonseed  meal  on  them,  and  you  can  judge  from  that  how  they 
looked. 

0.  Do  you  know  whether  all  those  milkers  were  patients  or  a 
fraction  of  them  ?  A.  All  were  patients  but  two,  the  two  watchmen. 
I  turned  them  out  of  the  gate  every  morning  for  two  months. 

Q.  Those  two  that  were  not  patients,  were  they  cleanly?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

O.  You  saw  no  objection  to  their  milking?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  This  gentleman  who  was  at  the  head  of  it,  did  he  make  any 
effort  to  correct  that,  show  them  how  to  do?  Did  he  instruct  them? 


log 


A.  I  don’t  know  about  that.  I  was  just  in  and  out.  I  would  be 
in  and  out. 

Q.  Just  occasinally?  A.  Just  occasionally;  I  came  there  for 
sacks,  and  would  come  there  and  go  around  the  crib. 

Q.  These  patients  doing  the  work  over  there,  were  they  such 
patients  as  labored  on  the  farm?  A.  You  mean  those  that  went 
on  the  detail  ? 

Q.  Those  that  milked  the  cattle,  were  they  allowed  to  do  that  all 
the  time?  A.  Yes,  sir,  a  certain  number  went  there  all  the  time  to  do 
the  milking. 

Q.  Did  they  have  pretty  good  clothes?  A.  No,  sir,  some  did  and 
some  did  not. 

Q.  You  think  they  were  too  unsanitary  to  do  the  milking?  A. 
Yes,  sir.  You  can  judge  of  that  by  this:  There  is  a  stream  that 
goes  between  the  laundry  and  the  dairy  by  the  back  gate,  and  one  of 
them  took  his  hat  and  ran  down  and  dipped  it  into  the  filth  and 
things  and  commenced  drinking  it,  and  I  said,  “Don’t  drink  that, 
don’t  drink  that,”  and  he  went  right  on  drinking. 

Q.  He  drank  the  water  with  the  filth  in  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  These  cooks  in  the  kitchen,  are  they  all  patients  or  are  there 
some  hired  ones  in  there?  A.  Some  hired  ones. 

Q.  How  were  they?  Were  they  clean?  A.  They  did  very  well. 

Q.  They  didn’t  take  any  steps  to  make  those  clean  who  were 
handling  the  food  ?  A.  I  don’t  know  anything  about  that,  about 
what  steps  they  took.  I  just  happen  to  see  it.  I  would  be  around 
there,  and  would  see. 

Q.  Did  you  see  these  filthy  cooks  handling  the  dough,  bread 
and  meat?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  With  their  hands?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  about  the  servants  in  the  dining  room  when  the  food 
was  brought  in  to  be  served  to  the  patients,  in  the  general  dining 
room  ?  A.  The  big  mess  hall  ? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  I  was  in  there  several  times,  yes,  sir ;  I  have  been  in 
there  a  good  many  times. 

Q.  Who  were  the  meals  served  by?  A.  The  man  in  charge, 
assisted  by  the  patients. 

Q.  The  man  at  the  head  of  the  mess  hall?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  was  not  a  patient?  A.  No,  sir.  The  way  they  would  do 
would  be  to  put  it  on  the  plates  first,  and  then  put  on  each  plate  all 
the  things  that  they  were  going  to  have. 


no 


Q.  Was  it  cleanly  served?  Was  it  clean  in  there?  A.  It  was 
just  about  like  it  was  on  our  ward. 

Q.  Like  it  was  on  your  ward?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Served  in  these  tin  plates?  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  patients  ate  pretty  freely?  A.  Some  would  and  some 
would  not. 

Q.  How  was  the  ward  itself  in  which  you  staid  kept?  Was  it 
kept  clean,  or  was  it  allowed  to  become  filthy?  A.  I  did  a  heap  of 
work  on  my  ward.  It  was  kept  clean. 

Q.  How?  A.  I  scrubbed  it  myself.  We  kept  our  ward  in  very 
good  shape. 

Q.  By  the  patients  or  nurses?  A.  Patients.  I  was  on  the  ward 
with  Mr.  Wilson  for  a  year,  and  we  worked  together  and  kept 
the  ward  the  best  we  could. 

Q.  Did  the  nurses  help  you?  A.  Mr.  Wilson  did. 

Q.  You  have  no  complaint  at  the  way  your  ward  was  kept,  have 
you?  A.  Of  course,  sometimes  we  could  not  keep  it  clean. 

Q.  On  the  whole,  was  the  ward  kept  pretty  well?  A.  As  well 
as — 

Q.  Could  be  expected?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  worked  hard  to  keep  it 
clean. 

Q.  You  worked  hard  to  keep  it  clean?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  the  beds  pretty  good?  A.  I  had  a  very  good  bed.  Some 
of  them  we  would  have  to  change  from  four  to  five  times  a  day.  I 
have  done  it  myself  from  four  to  five  times.  Take  them  and  wash 
them,  and  put  on  clean  clothes. 

Q.  That  was  the  epileptics?  A.  Yes,  sir,  and  others. 

Q.  Were  the  mattresses  pretty  good?  A.  Some.  You  would 
have  to  use  some  judgment  about  using  the  bedding. 

Q.  Were  they  kept  clean?  A.  Kept  clean?  You  can  fix  them, 
and  in  half  an  hour’s  time  they  are  in  the  same  fix. 

Q.  The  beds?  You  could  not  wash  them?  A.  Extra  beds. 

Q.  How  would  you  clean  them?  A.  We  would  keep  a  rubber 
under  them  the  best  we  could.  Sometimes  as  soon  as  you  turn 
your  back  they  would  be  off. 

Q.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  it  was  almost  impossible  to  keep  them 
clean?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  there  many  of  that  class  of  patients  on  your  ward?  A. 
A  good  many. 

Q.  Did  you  use  wooden  bedsteads?  A.  Some  wood  and  some 


iron. 


Ill 


Q.  Was  there  covering  sufficient  and  clean?  A.  Well,  that  is  one 
thing  it  was  hard  to  do.  Of  course,  I  tried  my  level  best  while  I 
was  on  my  ward  to  see  after  my  ward  for  these  poor  people,  suffer¬ 
ers,  the  best  way  I  knew  how,  and  we  would  try  to  sun  them.  I 
would  take  them  out  there  and  sun  them.  I  helped  take  them  out, 
but  it  was  sort  of  hard.  It  took  a  man.  There  was  so  much  of  it. 
It  is  hard  work  to  keep  their  beds  straight. 

Q.  Did  you  have  covering  enough?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Kept  as  clean  as  you  could  with  that  class  of  patients  in 
there?  A.  I  will  not  say  that. 

Q.  You  will  not  say  that?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Kept  fairly  clean?  A.  Fairly. 

Q.  Were  there  any  bedbugs  in  your  ward?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Many?  A.  A  good  many  in  places,  a  sight  of  them. 

Q.  Was  any  effort  made  to  stamp  them  out?  A.  Just  could  not 
do  it.  We  would  go  over  it  once  a  week,  sometimes  twice  a  week. 

Q.  What  did  you  use  to  try  to  stamp  them  out  with  ?  A.  I  don’t 
know  the  name  of  it.  It  was — 

Q.  A  preparation?  A.  Provided  for  that  purpose. 

Q.  Carbolic  acid?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  furnished  it  to  you?  A.  Got  it  from  the  storehouse — Mr. 
Bunch. 

Q.  From  the  storehouse  here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Used  for  that  purpose?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  they  usually  anywhere  except  on  the  beds?  A.  On  the 
walls. 

Q.  Weren’t  the  walls  plastered?  A.  Yes,  sir,  you  could  see 
splotches  as  big  as  your  hand  on  them. 

Q.  Who  used  that  preparation,  the  nurses  or  the  patients  there? 
A.  I  used  it  in  my  ward. 

Q.  Did  any  one  help  you?  A.  I  would  get  some  of  the  rest  of 
the  patients. 

Q.  Would  the  nurses  do*  it?  A.  Mr.  Wilson  would  help  me. 

O.  The  nurses  would  help  you?  A.  Mr.  Wilson  would. 

Q.  Was  there  much  complaint  about  the  bedbugs?  A.  A  good 
deal,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  a  pretty  hard  thing  to  do — to  stamp  them  out?  A. 
About  as  hard  a  job  as  you  want  to  undertake.  I  have  white¬ 
washed  myself  two  rooms  on  the  fourth  ward  for  George  Brown. 
He  asked  me  if  I  knew  how  to  mix  whitewash  and  I  said,  “Yes,  sir.” 


I  12 


Q.  Would  that  destroy  them?  A.  It  helped  out  the  matter  won¬ 
derfully.  I  whitewashed  a  big  room  on  the  fourth  ward  and  George 
Brown’s  room. 

Q.  Did  that  condition  prevail  in  other  wards  besides  the  one  you 
were  on  ?  A.  It  was  on  all  of  them,  every  ward.  When  I  was  not 
busy  on  the  first  ward  I  would  go  on  the  fourth  and  help  over  there 
sometimes. 

Q.  You  made  yourself  useful  while  in  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  suppose  you  got  along  better  when  you  were  employed  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir.  I  got  along  better,  and  felt  better. 

Q.  Was  it  satisfactory  to  the  authorities  for  you  to  superintend 
and  engage  in  these  things?  A.  Yes,  sir,  seemed  so. 

Q.  And  helped  you?  A.  Yes,  sir.  The  attendants  knew  of  it. 
Doctor  would  come  there  and  ask  me  how  my  bowels  were,  and  he 
knew  I  carried  them  to  the  bathtub. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  more  than  one  bathed  in  the  same  water? 
A.  Certainly,  when  I  first  went  there,  I  had  them  in  hand.  I  bathed 
ever}'  man  once  a  week.  I  changed  the  water,  but  before  I  had  it 
in  hand,  I  have  seen  fifteen  or  twenty  go  into  the  same  water  suffer¬ 
ing  from  itch  and  everything  else. 

Q.  Epileptics  or  those  that  had  more  sense?  A.  Yes,  sir,  we 
bathed  everything  on  the  ward. 

Q.  You  saw  them  bathing  different  patients  in  the  same  water? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  was  asking  what  class  of  patients  they  bathed  that  way  ?  A. 
They  bathed  all  of  them  on  the  fourth  ward.  I  suppose  they  were 
doing  it  when  I  left. 

Q.  Who  would  do  that  ?  A.  The  nurses  that  bathed  the  patients. 
Harmon  was  bathing  them. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  bathe  more  than  one  in  the  same  water?  A. 
Sometimes  I  could  not  get  through  and  I  would  bathe  two  at  a  time, 
but  never  went  further  than  that. 

Q.  Was  there  any  scarcity  of  water?  A.  No,  sir.  Sometimes  we 
could  not  get  hot  water. 

Q.  There  was  a  scarcity  of  hot  water  ?  A.  W e  could  not  get  more 
hot  water. 

0.  There  was  always  plenty  of  cold  water?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  Which  did  you  bathe  them  in  ?  A.  I  would  turn  on  the  warm 
water  and  turn  on  the  cold,  and  get  the  bath — 

Q.  At  the  proper  temperature?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


JI3 

Q.  How  were  the  bath  rooms  kept,  the  rooms  themselves  ?  A. 
At  times  pretty  rough  on  the  fourth  ward.  It  was  simply  awful. 
They  would  take  clothes  stripped  from  those  people  sometimes  and 
leave  them  there,  and  I  would  get  after  them,  but  they  would  pay 
no  attention.  They  would  strip  those  fellows  that  had  bowel  trouble. 

Q.  Strip  off  their  clothes?  A.  Yes,  sir,  those  that  had  the  bowels 
bad. 

Q.  The  clothes,  how  were  they  kept?  A.  The  clothes  were  kept 
very  well,  I  suppose. 

Q.  The  clothing  that  came  from  the  laundry?  A.  We  could  not 
say  anything  against  that.  The  clothing  did  very  well. 

Q.  How  often  did  you  change  your  clothes?  A.  The  change  of 
clothes  was  according  to  the  patient.  Sometimes  would  have  to 
change  a  patient  two  or  three  times  a  day. 

Q.  Would  the  clothing  be  furnished  by  the  State  or  by  a  patient? 
A.  By  the  State. 

Q.  Did  they  furnish  sufficient  clothing  for  that  class  of  patients? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  very  good  clothing. 

Q.  You  ward  seems  to  have  been  conducted  pretty  well?  A. Yes, 
sir,  as  long  as  Mr.  Wilson  stayed  on  the  ward  we  got  along  pretty 
nicely.  No  sooner  than  he  would  come  in,  Mr.  Wilson  would  see 
what  the  patients  needed  and  he  would  get  it. 

Q.  How  long  was  he  there?  A.  I  was  on  there  with  him  one  year. 

Q.  Was  he  here  when  you  came?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  he  kind  and  respectful  to  the  patients?  A.  Yes,  sir,  the 
best  man  that  I  saw  on  the  wards  towards  patients,  seeing  after 
them,  and  seeing  that  they  got  what  was  sent  to  them. 

Q.  Where  did  Mr.  Wilson  come  from?  A.  I  don’t  know,  sir. 

Q.  Mr. - ,  you  seem  to  think  that  you  were  kept  in  here  too 

long,  is  that  true?  A.  I  think  so,  yes,  sir. 

0.  Were  your  folks  at  home  willing  for  you  to  come  out?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  they  were  glad,  but  they  wanted  me  to  get  a  free  discharge. 

O.  Was  there  anything  in  the  way  of  getting  a  free  discharge? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  What  was  it?  A.  I  asked  the  doctor  to  carry  me  in  front  of 
the  board  seven  or  eight  times.  He  said  he  would  carrv  my  name. 

Q.  Which  doctor?  A.  Dr.  Thompson. 

Q.  He  said  he  would  carry  your  name?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  This  was  after  you  came  back  the  second  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  difficulty  about  getting  out  the  first  time? 
A.  My  brothers  came  and  got  me.  They  signed  papers  to  carry  me 


8— A. 


home.  The  Judge  of  Probate  had  fixed  the  papers  up  there  at  home. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  stay  at  home?  A.  The  first  time? 

0.  Yes.  A.  Nine  months. 

Q.  You  staid  at  home  nine  months?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Before  you  were  sent  back?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  got  off  again?  A.  Yes,  sir,  the  reason  I  was  off,  I  had 
been  very  hard  at  work  running  a  stationary  engine  there.  I  never 
got  off  from  the  railroad  any  night  before  ten  or  eleven,  and  then 
the  condition  I  was  in.  I  had  a  hard  job  there  to  work  before  I  ran 
that  engine,  after  I  left  here  for  nine  months,  and  the  Seaboard  was 
glad  to  get  me  back.  They  gave  me  my  job  back  as  soon  as  I  reached 
Abbeville.  I  went  to  work  there  with  the  Seaboard  Railroad,  and 
they  got  me  to  start  up  on  the  Saturday  evening  before  I  took  this 
cold  and  my  mind  gave  way.  I  was  a  mighty  sick  man  then,  I 
came  to  the  foreman  on  the  clinker  pit  at  Abbeville,  and  said,  “Mr. 
Leach,  I  am  not  able  to  see  after  washing  out  my  boiler  this  after¬ 
noon,  I  wish  you  would  get  the  apprentice  boy  to  see  about  putting 
the  plugs  in  the  boiler,”  and  he  said,  “All  right,  go  home  and  be  at 
ease.”  I  went  home,  and  I  was  a  mighty  sick  man  and  laid  down  on 
my  bed.  That  night  I  was  annoyed  by  their  running  in  there  and 
saying  the  shops  were  on  fire.  They  told  me  to  get  up  and  go  down, 
but  I  did  not  pay  any  attention,  I  was  feeling  so  bad. 

Q.  You  were  in  a  pretty  bad  fix  the  second  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Worse  than  the  first?  A.  I  don’t  know  that  I  was. 

Q.  How  long  after  you  came  before  you  began  to  feel  better?  A. 
The  only  way  I  can  judge  was  that  my  wife  wrote  me  and  in  the 
letter  she  says,  “What  is  the  matter?  I  haven’t  got  a  letter  from 
you  in  three  weeks,”  and  I  got  up  at  the  same  time  and  answered 
her  letter.  That  is  the  time  I  said  I  wrote  to  her  on  my  knees. 

Q.  How  long  had  you  been  in  here  before  you  thought  you  ought 
to  get  out  of  here  the  second  time?  A.  I  was  anxious  to  get  out  I 
expect  before  I  was  able  to  get  out.  I  was  a  mighty  sick  man.  I 
wanted  to  get  out  in  two  months. 

Q.  You  wanted  to  get  out  too  soon?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  All  want  to  do  that?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  All  are  that  way?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Usually  they  want  to  come  out  before  they  ought?  That  is 
your  observation  here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  you  began  to  want  to  get  out,  did  you  make  your  wishes 
known  to  Dr.  Thompson?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


Q.  Then  he  stated  to  you  that  your  name  would  be  brought  before 
the  board?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  it  brought  before  the  board?  A.  He  said  so. 

Q.  What  was  the  decision?  A.  He  said  that  Dr.  Babcock  wanted 
more  time. 

Q.  Thought  you  should  stay  longer?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  your  name  brought  any  other  time?  A.  Several  times, 
yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  decision  was  the  same  each  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Thought  you  ought  to  stay  longer?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  you  did  get  out,  did  you  get  a  free  discharge?  A.  No, 
sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  discharge  did  you  get?  A.  I  did  not  get  any. 
I  had  to  get  a  lawyer  to  get  out  of  here. 

Q.  Did  you  have  a  lawyer  to  get  you  out?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  have  a  case  in  Court  over  it?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  But  a  lawyer  got  you  out?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  the  lawyer  get  you  out?  A.  Well,  I  just  sent  for 
him,  I  suppose.  I  don’t  know  how  it  was. 

Q.  You  said  they  signed  that  usual  paper  they  signed  for  parties 
when  they  got  out  ?  A.  I  suppose  so.  I  did  not  see  any. 

Q.  Did  anybody  else  sign  your  paper  besides  your  lawyer?  A.  I 
think  Mr.  Prince. 

Q.  Where  did  Mr.  Prince  live?  A.  Lived  at  the  factory,  I  think. 

Q.  Lived  at  a  factory  here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  his  business?  A.  He  is  a  machinist,  I  think,  a  loom- 
fixer. 

Q.  Is  he  a  relative  of  yours?  A.  No,  sir,  no  kin. 

Q.  How  did  he  come  to  interest  himself  in  your  case, - ? 

A.  I  was  on  the  street  once  and  saw  him,  and  he  seemed  to  take  a 
favor  to  me.  He  thought  I  ought  to  be  out.  He  said,  “What  in 
the  world  are  you  doing  in  there?”  something  like  that.  I  can’t  say 
his  exact  words. 

Q.  When  you  were  taken  out,  did  anvtbody  go  home  with  you? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  go  by  yourself?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  stay  in  the  city  any  after  you  were  discharged?  A. 
One  night. 

Q.  Who  did  you  stay  with  ?  A.  Mr.  Prince. 

Q.  Is  Mr.  Prince  a  man  of  character  and  standing  in  the  com¬ 
munity?  A.  I  suppose  so. 


n6 


Q.  You  don’t  know  anything  against  him?  A.  Only  a  short 
acquaintance. 

Q.  He  met  you  on  the  yard  and  interested  himself  in  getting  you 
out?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  have  a  job  on  the  premises?  A.  Back  gate  keeper. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  have  that  job?  A.  Two  months. 

Q.  Did  you  have  it  when  you  left?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  there  any  pay  attached  to  the  job?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much?  A.  Twelve  dollars  a  month. 

Q.  How  came  you  to  give  it  up?  A.  I  never  gave  it  up.  They 
called  me  in.  The  old  man,  Mr.  Green,  he  was  sick,  and  I  was  put 
in  his  place,  to  fill  his  place  until  he  got  well. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  apply  for  a  job  again?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Any  other  job?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  get  it?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  get  any  other  job?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  get  anybody  to  try  to  get  a  job  for  you?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  Wyatt  Aiken.  I  got  Wyatt  Aiken.  I  wrote  and  asked  if  he 
could  be  any  help,  and  he  wrote  to  Dr.  Babcock,  and  also  wrote 
to  me. 

Q.  About  getting  you  a  job?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  He  is  from  Abbeville?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Mr.  Aiken  is  also  from  Abbeville?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Lyon  ever  interest  himself  in  getting  you  a  job?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  is  from  Abbeville  also?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  Mr.  Aiken  or  Mr.  Lyon  ?  A.  While  in  here  ? 

O.  Yes.  A.  I  saw  Mr.  Lyon. 

Q.  Where  ?  A.  He  brought  a  patient  and  came  and  called  on  me. 

0.  Were  you  allowed  to  go  out  into  the  city?  A.  With  the 
nurses  I  was. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  go  down  to  the  State  House?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Did  you  see  Mr.  Lyon  down  there?  A.  Yes,  sir,  and  Mr. 


Q.  It  seems  you  had  several  jobs  while  here?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  was 
in  the  laundry.  I  ran  the  laundry  for  three  months. 

Q.  How  did  you  like  that  job?  A.  I  liked  it  very  well,  but  there 
was  not  enough  pay  in  it. 

O.  How  much?  A.  One  dollar  a  month  and  Mr.  Clark  gave  me 
fifty  cents. 

Q.  Did  you  apply  for  another  job  just  before  you  went  home? 


A.  Yes,  sir,  I  wrote  to  Dr.  Babcock  asking  him  to  give  me  some¬ 
thing  after  these  men  wrote  to  him.  I  asked  how  was  he  going  to 
give  me  anything  to  do. 

Q.  What  did  he  say?  A.  He  never  did  write  any  answer.  He 
never  sent  me  any  answer. 

Q.  Would  you  have  been  willing  to  stay  if  you  had  gotten  a  job? 
A.  Well,  I  would  have  stayed,  yes. 

Q.  You  would  have  been  willing  to  stay  with  a  job?  A.  In  the 
condition  I  was  in.  I  would  have  tried  to  make  myself  satisfied. 

Q.  Was  your  wife  satisfied  with  your  remaining  here  up  to  the 
time  you  got  out?  A.  I  suppose  so;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Your  brothers  in  Abbeville?  A.  I  can’t  say  they  were,  but 
they  wanted  a  free  discharge.  They  carried  me  out  once  and  took 
the  responsibility,  and  my  brothers  came  here  to  see  Dr.  Babcock 

and  Dr.  Thompson,  and  they  told  him  (this  was  - )  not 

to  take  me  out  of  here. 

Q.  -  is  your  brother? 

Q.  Who  told  him  ?  A.  Dr.  Babcock. 

0.  Why?  A.  He  said  that  I  would  cause  trouble. 

0.  What  did  your  brother  say  at  the  time?  A.  I  don’t  know,  sir. 

0.  Were  they  willing  to  send  for  you  and  get  you  out?  A.  No, 
sir. 

0.  They  were  not?  A.  No,  sir.  They  said  that  it  was  the  duty 
of  the  doctors  to  give  me  a  free  discharge. 

0.  Did  you  ever  make  an  application  to  the  Board  of  Regents 
yourself  for  a  discharge?  A.  Never  could  get  to  see  them.  I  have 
done  it  through  Dr.  Thompson. 

0.  You  did  not  know  the  names  of  the  board  ?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  never  addressed  any  communication  to  the  board?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  1  he  only  way  you  asked  for  a  discharge  was  through  Dr. 
Thompson?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  the  doctor  think  of  your  condition  ?  A.  The  doctor 
has  told  me  several  times  that  they  ought  to  give  me  something  that 
would  pay  me  or  give  me  a  free  discharge. 

Q.  A  job  or  a  free  discharge?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Did  he  think  you  were  in  condition  to  be  discharged?  Did 
he  ever  state  that?  A.  That  is  the  only  satisfaction  I  got.  He  said 
he  ought  to  give  me  something  to  do. 

Q.  Or  a  discharge?  A.  A  discharge. 


n8 


Q.  Did  the  doctor  ever  recommend  your  discharge?  A.  I  could 
not  say. 

Q.  Did  he  ever  state  to  you  that  he  would  recommend  your 
discharge?  A.  He  said  he  would  do  all  he  could  for  me  in  that 
matter. 

Q.  Why  is  it  your  folks  were  not  willing  for  your  discharge — 
because  this  condition  was  attached?  A.  My  affections,  I  suppose. 

Q.  Your  affections?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  thought  you  ought  to  remain  here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  it  the  physical  affection  or  your  mental  condition?  A.  I 
was  all  to  pieces,  you  know,  at  the  time.  My  bowels  were  in  a  terrible 
fix  the  time  that  I  came  here.  I  had  no  control  of  my  bowels  at  all 
even  at  night.  Even  now  all  my  actions  come  on  cotton.  I  have  got 
no  control  of  my  bowels  at  all. 

Q.  And  that  affected  your  mind?  A.  Yes,  sir,  at  that  time.  It 
did  not  last  a  very  long  time,  as  Dr.  Thompson  will  state  to  you. 

Q.  Are  they  in  a  better  fix  now,  your  bowels?  A.  Splendid. 
Sometimes  I  can  hit  my  actions.  If  I  feel  a  little  pain  I  make  for 
the  closet. 

Q.  Does  it  affect  your  mind  now?  A.  Not  a  bit. 

Q.  Your  mind  is  perfectly  clear?  A.  Perfectly  clear. 

Q.  Are  you  able  to  do  any  work?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  sort  of  work?  A.  Most  anything. 

Q.  What  are  you  engaged  in  now  ?  A.  I  am  out  on  the  farm  with 
my  brother  helping  him,  building  barns  and  see  after  his  farm.  I 
have  stopped  only  a  day  or  so  since  I  have  been  there. 

Q.  Your  family  is  with  you,  I  suppose?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Where  is  your  family,  at  Abbeville?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Which  one  of  your  brothers  are  you  on  the  farm  with?  A. 


Q.  Was  your  father-in-law  willing  for  you  to  come  out  of  here? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  He  was  not  willing?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  why?  A.  I  could  not  say,  only  my  disease. 

Q.  Your  disease  physically  or  mentally?  A.  Mentally. 

Q.  What  is  the  business  of  your  wife’s  father?  A.  A  doctor. 

Q.  A  practicing  physician?  A.  Not  practicing,  no,  sir. 

0.  He  is  a  physician?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  lives  at  Abbeville  Court  House?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  much  of  him?  A.  Passed  and  repassed  him. 

Q.  Frequently?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


ii9 

Q.  And  you  are  not  living  with  your  family  at  the  present  time  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  anybody  else  in  here  trying  to  get  out  you  think  ought 
to  be  let  out  at  that  time  ?  A.  Yes,  sir, - . 

Q.  From  Marlboro?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  he  is. 

Q.  Is  he  in  here  now?  A.  I  could  not  say. 

Q.  Did  he  try  to  get  out?  A.  Yes,  sir;  he  was  always  wanting 
his  name  to  go  in  front  of  the  board. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  anything  about  how  long  he  was  kept  in  here? 
A.  No,  sir,  I  could  not  say.  I  came  here  and  found  him  here  when 
I  came. 

0.  You  think  from  general  appearances  he  ought  to  be  out,  do 
you?  A.  Yes,  sir,  from  his  talk  and  acts. 

Q.  Anybody  else?  A.  There  were  a  good  many,  but  I  can’t  think 
of  their  names.  I  worked  on  the  farm.  They  were  picking  peas 
sometimes.  I  can’t  think  of  their  names. 

Q.  Were  there  many  inebriates  here  at  that  time,  who  came  here 
from  drink  and  drugs?  A.  Not  so  many  on  our  ward.  Most  of 
them  were  on  the  second  ward. 

Q.  Any  of  your  nature?  A.  No,  sir,  not  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  Did  you  take  your  meals  in  the  little  pay  room  or  in  the  general 
mess  hall  ?  A.  On  the  first  ward. 

Q.  That  applies  to  the  feeble  patients?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Their  meals  are  brought  to  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  take  part  in  any  of  the  amusements  around  here,  base¬ 
ball,  etc.  ?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  were  never  in  condition?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  I  suppose  your  entire  ward  was  the  same  way.  How  did  you 
amuse  yourself  on  the  ward?  A.  I  never  was  on  the  ward  much. 

Q.  On  your  own  ward?  A.  I  was  working  with  those  feeble 
patients.  I  would  read  a  good  deal.  Dr.  Thompson  was  mighty 
kind.  He  would  bring  down  religious  papers. 

O.  Have  you  any  reason  to  complain  of  the  treatment  by  Dr. 
Thompson  while  you  were  in  here?  A.  Not  a  bit. 

Q.  Did  the  other  patients  have  any  complaints  against  Dr.  Thomp¬ 
son  ?  A.  You  know  some  would. 

•  Q.  Not  that  you  considered  well  founded?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  None?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  his  treatment  of  the  patients  in  there  kind  and  humane? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  did  all  he  could  for  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


120 


Q.  He  seemed  to  be  a  general  favorite  with  the  patients?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  willing  to  give  him  justice?  A.  I  have  never  seen  a 
more  devoted  man  than  Dr.  Thompson  was,  because  I  went  around 
with  him,  and  those  are  facts,  that  he  was  kind  to  them. 

Q.  How  do  you  account  for  all  of  these  complaints  coming  from 
the  wards  over  which  Dr.  Thompson  had  charge,  if  he  treated  you 
that  way?  A.  It  was  the  patients. 

Q.  It  was  the  fault  of  the  patients?  A.  I  mean — 

0.  The  keepers,  you  mean  ?  A.  The  keepers  ? 

Q.  The  nurses  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  any  instances  occur  to  you  at  which  Dr.  Thompson  was 
at  fault  in  not  seeing  that  these  men  were  disciplined  in  here?  A. 
Now,  I  will  tell  you,  they  knew  Dr.  Thompson’s  time. 

Q.  The  keepers?  A.  Yes,  sir.  And  they  would  be  on  their  p’s 
and  q’s  when  he  came. 

0.  The  bulk  of  these  things  you  refer  to  were  done  while  Dr. 
Thompson  was  absent,  and  they  all  knew  that  he  was  absent  at  the 
time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  had  no  complaint  whatever  against  Dr.  Thompson?  A. 
Not  a  word;  no,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  don’t  know  anybody  else  whp  did?  A.  No,  sir,  I 
don’t  see  how  anybody  could. 

Q.  Was  he  faithful  in  his  medical  attention  to  the  patients  there? 
A.  Sure. 

Q.  He  came  to  see  the  sick?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Prescribed  for  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  would  attend  to  his  prescriptions  when  given  ?  A.  Some¬ 
times  I  would. 

Q.  Sometimes  you  would  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  had  any  experience  along  that  line?  A.  I  would 
go  for  the  medicine  up  to  the  fifth  ward  and  bring  it  down. 

Q.  I  suppose  you  were  very  careful  in  carrying  out  the  prescrip¬ 
tion?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  would  always — in  fact,  if  the  doctor  would 
come  in  to  give  them  their  medicines,  I  would  help  him  give  it  to 
them.  Some  could  not  give  it  to  them,  and  I  would  give  it  to  them. 

0.  Did  you  volunteer  or  did  the  doctor  request  you  to  do  it?  A. 
The  doctor  would  ask  me  sometimes  about  these  things.  The  doctor 
knew  that  I  had  charge  of  those  men  up  there  on  the  ward. 

Q.  Where  would  you  keep  your  medicines  that  you  gave  to  the 


121 


patients  ?  A.  On  the  ward.  Sometimes  would  not  have  any  and 
would  have  to  go  to  the  fifth  ward. 

Q.  Did  you  look  in  that  room,  the  medicine  room,  when  you 
were  looking  for  a  prescription,  to  see  that  the  room  was  well  kept, 
and  the  medicines  in  order,  or  did  the  nurses  have  charge  of  that? 
A.  The  nurses,  they  had  the  keys. 

Q.  Was  the  medical  room  kept  in  good  order?  A:  Very  good 
order. 

Q.  Were  the  vessels  clean  ?  A.  I  can't  say.  Sometimes  they  were 
clean,  and  sometimes  they  were  not. 

Q.  Who  sent  you  up  on  the  fifth  ward  to  get  medicines?  A. 
Several  of  them. 

Q.  Patients?  A.  Nurses. 

Q.  Who  were  they?  A.  Most  of  them,  every  one,  I  suppose. 

O.  They  would  send  you  up  to  get  the  medicines?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Your  services  in  that  line  were  very  acceptable  to  the  patients 
and  the  nurses?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  made  no  complaint  of  you?  A.  No,  sir. 

0.  And  the  attentions  which  you  showed  them?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  was  the  drinking  water  in  there?  A.  The  water  wras 
very  good. 

Q.  Clean?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Served  in  clean  vessels?  A.  No,  sir.  They  had  a  cup  and  we 
would  go  to  the  place  and  get  water — a  sink. 

Q.  Mr.  Syfan,  did  you  ever  see  any  stealing  up  there  in  your  ward, 
depriving  the  patients  of  food  intended  for  them  and  medicines  by 
the  keepers?  A.  Stealing? 

Q.  Intended  for  the  feeble  patients?  A.  I  could  not  say  that  I 
did. 

0.  You  could  not  say  that  you  did?  A.  I  could  not  say  positively. 

O.  So  far  as  you  know,  that  part  of  it  was  all  right  ?  It  was  served 
under  your  own  supervision  ?  A.  I  don’t  know. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  any  thieving  going  on  anywhere  on  the 
premises?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where?  A.  I  caught  up  with  it  while  I  was  gate-keeper. 

Q.  Who  did  that?  A.  I  did,  sir. 

Q.  Who  did  the  stealing?  A.  A  negro  cook. 

Q.  A  patient?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  An  outsider?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Was  she  a  patient  in  the  institution?  A.  The  cook  was  a 
negro  man. 


122 


Q.  Was  he  a  patient  in  the  institution?  A.  No,  sir,  a  hired  man. 

0.  What  would  he  do?  A.  Well,  he  was  going  towards  the  door 
first  to  me  at  the  back,  and  I  did  not  know  the  rules  of  the  asylum, 
and  I  sent  for  Dr.  Thompson,  and  he  came  down,  and  he  said  every 
bundle  must  be  examined  by  the  gateman.  And  when  he  came  down 
I  asked  him  must  I  carry  out  those  rules,  and  he  says,  certainly, 
every  package  that  goes  out  of  here. 

0.  What  doctor  was  that  ?  A.  Dr.  Thompson.  Dr.  Babcock  was 
off.  This  was  while  he  was  in  Europe,  and  I  says,  “Now,  doctor, 
I  will  sure  carry  out  the  rules.  I  have  been  seeing  these  things 
going  on,  and  I  thought  I  would  see  you.”  He  says,  “All  right,  I 
know  that,  notify  them.”  I  notified  all  of  them  to  quit  that  carrying, 
and  I  said,  “If  you  carry  anything  out  I  will  report  you.”  I  says,  “I 
will  not  allow  you  a  chance  to  carry  anything  out,”  and  I  says, 
“Nothing  will  pass  through  this  gate,”  and  I  stopped  several  and 
turned  them  back  and  gave  them  a  chance,  and  I  took  it  up  and  told 
them  that  I  was  going  to  stop  it  now,  and  there  was  a  negro  in  the 
kitchen,  a  heavy  carrier,  and  he  had  something  under  his  coat  all 
the  way  round,  and  I  would  see  him  go  with  that  coat  loaded,  and 
I  came  up  one  night  and  called  doctor  at  seven  o’clock,  and  I  told 
him  to  come  down  that  I  wanted  to  see  him.  And  I  went  up  to  the 
mess  hall  and  told  him  about  it,  and  I  says,  “Do  you  want  me  to 
arrest  him  or  not.”  I  says,  “I  can  catch  him.”  He  said  “I  was  a 
sort  of  weakly  man,  and  that  I  had  better  not  tackle  him  by  myself.” 
He  says, “I  will  place  a  man  with  you.”  So,  doctor  sent  Air.  Sineath, 
the  supervisor,  down  there  to  help  me  catch  this  negro.  He  came  one 
night  and  the  negro  did  not  come  that  night.  Something  happened 
he  did  not  come.  So,  I  told  Mr.  Sineath  to  come  down  the  next 
evening,  and  he  came  down  and  I  had  him  behind  a  bank  behind 
my  little  office  there.  I  said,  “When  you  see  him  get  close  up  you 
will  know  he  is  loaded.  If  he  comes  down  you  will  be  sure  to  watch 
for  him.  If  I  see  him  loaded  I  will  lock  the  gate  if  I  have  time. 
Sineath  saw  that  he  was  a  big,  heavy,  strong  negro,  and  he  came 
down  the  road.  I  says,  “He  is  loaded,  you  can  look  out  for  him.” 
I  says,  “When  he  leaves  that  track  I  can  see  whether  he  is  loaded 
or  not  by  his  coat,  and  when  you  see  him  get  close,  you  can  come,” 
and  he  said  he  would  come.  So.  when  the  negro  left  the  track,  and 
I  saw  he  was  loaded,  I  shut  the  gate,  and  the  negro  came  on  me. 
He  knew  what  was  up.  He  got  on  me.  I  had  a  broom  stick.  He 
came  up  to  the  gate  and  I  had  it  closed,  and  the  darkey  got  close. 
I  says,  “Give  up  those  things  in  your  coat  there,”  and  I  says,  “Come 


123 


on  Mr.  Sineath.”  He  says,  “I  will  give  them  up.”  He  handed  me 
a  bundle  of  rice.  I  laid  the  stick  down  and  he  put  the  bundle  of 
rice  in  my  hands,  and  that  kept  me  from  using  my  stick,  and  then 
he  grabbed  hold  of  me,  and  jerked  me  away  from  the  gate,  and  held 
me  until  he  threw  me  up  against  the  gate,  and  he  broke  and  ran. 

Q.  Whose  property  was  that  that  he  was  taking?  Did  the  property 
belong  to  the  institution?  A.  Yes,  sir,  carrying  it  from  the  institu¬ 
tion.  He  had  been  doing  that  all  the  time  I  was  down  there. 

Q.  Anybody  else  besides  that  particular  man?  A.  A  sight  of  it? 

Q.  A  good  deal?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  catch  up  with  much  of  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  was  taken  by  the  cooks  out  of  the  kichen?  A.,No.  When 
I  went  down  there  there  was  a  heap  of  this.  He  helped  me.  He 
would  advise  me.  I  remember  that.  I  would  come  for  advice  to  him 
and  Mr.  Mitchell.  There  were  crowds  of  negroes  down  there  that 
would  come  to  the  gate  and  stay  there,  and  I  would  run  them  off. 

Q.  You  mean  negroes  that  had  no  connection  with  the  institution, 

- ?  A.  Coming  there  bringing  eatables,  I  suppose,  and 

such  things.  Several  asked  me  couldn’t  they  come  to  the  back  gate, 
and  I  ran  them  away  for  a  good  while.  I  finally  told  them  I  would 
arrest  them,  and  I  got  it  down  so  fine  that  they  did  not  bother  me 
any  more,  and  the  doctor  told  me  not  to  pass  anybody  unless  they 
had  a  note. 

Q.  Who  told  you  not  to  'pass  anybody  unless  they  brought  a  note, 
Dr.  Thompson?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  the  stealing  of  articles  from  patients 
inside  the  institution?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  On  the  wards?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  that  ?  A.  No,  sir.  I  heard  lots  of  it, 
but  I  could  not  say  anything  about  it  myself. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  positively?  A.  I  heard  it  said  that  it  was 
done. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  the  rules  of  the  institution?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  The  nurses’  rules  or  cards?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  never  read  them?  A.  No,  sir. 

0.  Were  they  posted  anywhere  in  the  institution  that  you  know 
of?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  never  worked  out  on  the  farm  any,  I  notice?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  receive  any  pay  for  that?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  was  off 
and  on  all  the  time  on  the  farm,  when  I  was  not  at  the  laundry  or 
gate-keeper,  or  overhauling  furniture  or  something  like  that. 


I24 


Q.  What  is  your  estimate  of  Mr.  Mitchell,  the  Supervisor,  how 
did  he  treat  you?  A.  Mighty  nice. 

0.  How  did  he  treat  the  others?  A.  Very  well. 

Q.  Kind  and  humane?  A.  Yes,  sir,  all  that  I  saw. 

Q.  Were  any  complaints  made  against  him  by  any  of  the  inmates, 
that  you  know  of?  A.  No,  sir. 

0.  He  seemed  to  be  the  right  man  in  the  right  place?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  a  good  deal  of  him?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  had  a  good 
deal  of  business  with  him  while  I  was  at  the  gate. 

Q.  At  the  gate?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  He  seemed  to  be  the  right  man  in  the  right  place  ?  A.  Yes, sir. 

O.  He  is  the  general  supervisor  of  all  the  employees?  A.  Some¬ 
times. 

Q.  Do  you  know  who  employed  and  discharged  those  under  him, 
Mr.  Syfan?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  think  he  was  the  man. 

0.  You  thought  he  had  the  power?  A.  I  don’t  know  about  that. 

I  only  knew  about  this  -  matter.  He  changed  a  man  off  my 

ward,  Smith,  about - once. 

0.  What  did  he  do?  A.  I  will  tell  you  about  that.  Smith  got 

mad  at  me  because  I  reported  him  about  beating - .  and  I  could 

not  get  to  see  the  doctor,  and  I  went  right  straight  on  to  Mr. 
Mitchell’s  room,  and  went  right  in  there  and  told  him  what  I  had  said 
to  Smith,  how  Smith  had  choked  him  about  this  business,  and  he 
said  he  would  see  the  gentleman  about  it.  The  next  thing  I  knew 
of  it  he  had  sent  him  over  to  the  Taylor  building. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  make  any  reports  to  Mr.  Mitchell  besides  that 
one?  A.  Not  that  I  know  of. 

0.  Did  I  ask  you  about  the  scarcity  of  water  in  the  heating  depart¬ 
ment?  A.  Yes,  sir,  we  always  got  plenty  of  cold  water.  Some¬ 
times  when  it  was  real  cold  we  could  not  get  enough  warm  water. 

Q.  There  was  a  scarcity  of  warm  water?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  Did  you  ever  see  any  partiality  shown  by  these  doctors,  Mr. 
Mitchell,  Dr.  Thompson  or  Dr.  Babcock,  to  some  patients  over 
others?  A.  I  could  not  say  that. 

Q.  All  received  substantially  the  same  treatment  at  the  hands  of 
these  gentlemen?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  understand  you  have  no  complaint  whatever  about  the  treat¬ 
ment  you  received  at  the  hands  of  Dr.  Thompson?  A.  No,  sir,  not 
a  bit. 

Q.  Any  of  that  which  you  received  at  the  hands  of  Mr.  Mitchell  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 


125 


Q.  Your  chief  objection  was  to  the  nurses  and  keepers?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  anything  to  lay  at  the  door  of  Dr.  Babcock,  in  the 
nature  of  treating  you  that  you  thought  he  ought  not  to  have  done? 

A.  I  don't  think  he  did.  I  wrote  him  two  letters.  I  got - to 

do  it. 

Q.  You  did  write  two  letters?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  was  the  letter  that  Mr. - spoke  about  this  morning? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  contents  of  those  letters?  What  were  you  writ¬ 
ing  about?  A.  I  was  trying  to  get  something  to  do.  I  think  that 
they  were  due  that  to  me,  if  they  would  not  give  me  a  free  discharge. 
It  looked  like  every  effort  I  made  to  try  to  get  work  that  I  was  kept 
out  of  it.  I  went  to  work  at  the  laundry.  I  went  there  because  I 
was  a  badly  afflicted  man,  and  I  was  not  able  to  do  anything  else, 
and  I  went  to  the  steam  laundry  and  worked  like  a  man,  and  showed 
them  that  I  was  sufficiently  able  to  make  my  living,  and  I  went  on 
the  farm  and  I  took  the  lead  row  there. 

Q.  About  these  letters  you  say  you  wrote  to  Dr.  Babcock,  you 
say  you  wrote  two?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  For  employment?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  At  the  time  you  had  no  employment?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Wasn’t  the  work  you  were  doing  while  in  this  institution  satis¬ 
factory?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  There  never  was  any  complaint  ?  A.  No,  sir.  When  I  quit  the 

laundry  Clark  came  to  me  two  or  three  times,  and  said,  “ - ,  I 

don’t  know  how  I  can  get  along  without  you.” 

Q.  Who  was  he?  A.  The  man  at  the  head  of  the  laundry.  He 
came  to  me  and  said,  “I  am  feeling  bad  today,  will  you  not  come 
and  help  me,”  and  I  said,  “Certainly,”  and  I  would  go  out  and  wring 
after  him  and  the  washers.  He  would  go  out  to  the  institution  and 
leave  me  for  hours  at  a  time,  and  when  he  got  back  he  would  find 
everything  just  the  same. 

Q.  Who  gave  you  the  jobs  that  you  did  get?  A.  I  was 
working  on  the  farm.  I  don’t  think  Dr.  Thompson  would 
have  let  me  go  to  the  steam  laundry,  knowing  the  work 
that  I  was  doing,  and  I  think  he  was  uneasy  and  afraid  that  I  could 
not  hold  up  at  that.  I  was  working  on  the  farm,  and  Clark  had 
great  confidence  in  me.  I  had  been  on  the  ward  with  him,  and  he 
saw  how  I  worked  on  the  ward,  and  Mr.  Clark  came  to  the  doctor, 
hearing  that  I  was  able  to  be  out,  and  says,  “Where  is - ,”  and 


126 


I  says,  “Here  I  am.”  He  says,  “Come  here,  boy,  come  and  go  to 
the  laundry  with  me.  If  you  don’t  do  anything  but  pull  clothes  out 
of  the  wringer,  come  on.”  I  went  down  there,  and  he  says,  “I  am 
going  to  keep  you.”  He  had  not  seen  the  doctor.  When  the  doctor 
came  in,  I  says,  “Well,  I  have  been  to  the  laundry.”  He  says,  “Do 
you  think  you  can  stand  that  work?”  I  says,  “Yes,  I  can  get  along 
fine,  I  think.”  Doctor  says,  “Don’t  overdo  yourself.  You  know 
your  condition.  You  know  how  you  are.”  I  went  on  down  there.  I 
think  doctor  went  to  Mr.  Clark  once  or  twice,  and  he  told  him  I 
was  getting  along  with  the  work  as  well  as  anybody. 

Q.  About  the  letters,  what  reception  did  they  meet  with?  You 
say  you  wrote  to  Dr.  Babcock?  A.  Well,  I  had  worked  on  the  farm 
and  given  perfect  satisfaction.  I  had  given  perfect  satisfaction  at 
the  gate,  they  all  said.  And  they  said  I  had  done  very  good  at  that 
back  gate.  I  did  better  work  than  anybody  they  ever  had  at  the 
back  gate,  for  I  certainly  did  my  duty,  and  I  was  attentive  to  my 
work  there.  It  was  the  same  way  on  the  farm.  They  could  trust 
me,  and  what  I  did  I  did  right. 

0.  What  did  you  ask  for  in  the  letters?  A.  I  asked  for  a  paying 
salary. 

Q.  For  a  salary?  A.  For  something. 

Q.  Did  you  state  the  amount  you  would  like  to  receive?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Were  your  letters  answered?  A.  No,  sir.  I  never  heard  a 
word  from  him. 

Q.  Neither  of  them?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Who  did  you  give  the  letters  to?  A.  Mr.  Mitchell.  Here 
is  the  only  thing  Mr.  Mitchell  said :  I  went  in  and  I  said,  “Mr. 
Mitchell,”  I  says,  “I  want  Dr.  Babcock  to  get  this  letter.”  He  says, 

“All  right,”  and  he  came  back  the  next  day.  He  says,  “Well, - , 

I  sent  that  letter  to  Dr.  Babcock.”  That  is  what  Mr.  Mitchell  says, 
and  he  says,  “He  is  not  going  to  do  it,  he  is  not  going  to  pay  any 
attention  to  it.”  I  says,  “I  want  a  situation,”  and  my  intention  was, 
but  I  didn't  tell  what  my  intention  was,  but  my  intention  was  if  he 
did  not  give  me  a  position,  to  go  home. 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Mitchell  tell  you  he  had  delivered  the  letters?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  bring  you  any  verbal  reply?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  At  no  time?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  got  no  answer  by  letter?  A.  No,  sir. 


127 


Q.  How  long  was  that  before  you  left  here  ?  A.  I  waited  on  him, 
I  suppose — I  don’t  know.  It  was  a  good  long  time. 

Q.  Did  you  get  employment  after  that  time?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  No  employment  after  you  wrote  those  letters?  A.  No,  sir. 
Only  I  could  get  work  on  the  farm  whenever  I  wanted  to. 

Q.  No  paying  job?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Were  many  connected  with  the  institution  getting  any  pay? 
A.  Yes,  sir.  There  was  Gilbert.  He  was  a  patient.  He  got  a  good 
salary,  and  this  man  at  the  front  gate. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  salaries  they  got?  A.  No,  sir.  I  heard 
what  they  got,  but  I  don’t  know  whether  it  is  true  or  not.  I  never 
heard  from  them. 

Q.  Was  your  objection  to  being  here  that  you  ought  not  to  be 
kept  here  or  ought  to  have  employment?  A.  With  employment? 

Q.  You  didn’t  mind  staying  here  if  you  had  employment  in  the 
institution?  A.  I  was  in  this  fix.  I  could,  feeling  in  the  condition 
I  was  in,  earn  something  to  get  my  proper  food,  and  I  felt  that  if  I 
could  do  that  I  could  enjoy  myself  and  make  a  little  something  to 
help  my  family  a  little,  that  I  would  try  and  be  satisfied  here. 

Q.  Here?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  been  a  great  sufferer,  and  I  was 
willing  to  submit  myself  to  anything  for  my  family,  and  I  was  going 
to  try  to  stay  if  they  thought  it  was  best. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  make  any  other  request  to  Dr.  Babcock?  A. 
I  tried  my  level  best  to  get  to  see  him,  but  I  never  could  get  to  see 
him. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  notify  him  that  you  wanted  to  see  him?  A.  I 
tried  to  get  several  to  go  and  carry  me  to  him. 

Q.  Who  did  you  try  to  get  ?  A.  I  tried  to  get  most  of  the  watch¬ 
men. 

Q.  The  nurses?  A.  Mr.  Mitchell — Dr.  Thompson  was  off.  I 
never  did  ask  him.  I  asked  Mr.  Mitchell.  Dr.  Thompson  was  off, 
Dr.  Babcock  had  just  got  back,  and  Dr.  Thompson  went  on  his 
vacation,  and  I  was  getting  sort  of  worried  over  the  thing.  I  wanted 
to  get  out  of  here  or  get  something  to  do,  and  I  tried  to  get  Mr. 
Mitchell  to  do  so,  and  he  says,  “That  is  not  my  place.  It  is  all  right 
for  Dr.  Thompson  to  carry  you.’’  I  tried  to  get  several  of  them  to 
carry  me. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  part  of  the  institution  Dr.  Babcock  gave  his 
personal  attention  to?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Colored  women,  is  it  not?  A.  I  suppose  so.  I  don’t  know  any¬ 
thing  about  that. 


128 


Q.  You  did  not  want  to  see  him  professionally?  You  wanted  to 
see  him  about  employment?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  wanted  to  have  a  talk 
with  him. 

Q.  Is  that  the  respect  in  which  you  think  Dr.  Babcock  did  not 
treat  you  right,  in  not  giving  you  employment?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I 
thought  he  ought  to  give  me  my  freedom  or  something  to  do. 

Q.  And  that  is  all  you  have?  A.  Nothing  else  in  the  world  at  all. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  any  of  the  patients  complaining  against  Dr. 
Babcock  much  while  you  were  in  here?  A.  You  know  there  was 
talk  against  him,  of  course,  because  they  could  not  get  to  see  him 
and  talk  with  him. 

Q.  It  wasn’t  his  part  of  the  institution?  He  did  not  come  in 
there  except  on  extraordinary  occasions?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  When  he  was  called  in  for  a  conference  by  Dr.  Thompson? 
A.  I  never  saw  him  on  the  ward  but  once. 

Q.  On  the  ward?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  did  he  come  to  see?  A.  He  came  to  see  me  while  I  was 
sick,  when  Dr.  Thompson  was  sick  too. 

Q.  Was  that  when  you  were  first  in  here?  A.  That  was  the  last 
time. 

Q.  The  last  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Did  your  brother  have  an  interview  with  Dr.  Babcock  here 
about  your  going  home,  that  you  know  of?  A.  Well,  they  would 
come  and  talk  to  Dr.  Babcock  and  tell  me  or  write  me  that  Dr. 
Babcock  said  he  didn’t  think  it  would  be  well  to  take  me  out,  some¬ 
thing  of  that  sort. 

O.  They  would  come  here  and  then  go  back  and  write  you  that 
from  home?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Did  they  promise  to  take  you  out,  your  brothers?  A.  Never 
did. 

Q.  Did  any  of  your  folks  at  home?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  your  wife’s  folks?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  your  wife  come  to  see  you  while  you  were  in  here?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Your  father-in-law?  A.  No,  sir. 

0.  Anybody  besides  your  brothers?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  wrote  to  them?  A.  Yes,  sir,  to  my  wife  and  to  my 
brothers. 

Q.  How  many  brothers  have  you?  A.  Six. 

Q.  All  live  in  Abbeville?  A.  No,  sir. 


129 


Q.  Any  living  near  here,  around  Columbia?  A.  A  half  brother. 

Q.  In  the  city?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  does  he  do  here?  A.  I  think  he  railroads. 

Q.  Railroading?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  come  out  to  see  you  while  you  were  in  here?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  I  think  so. 

Q.  Was  he  interested  in  getting  you  out?  A.'  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  and  he  discuss  the  subject  of  your  getting  out  of  here? 
A.  I  hate  to  say  it  about  my  brother,  but  my  father  was  opposed  to 
his  marriage. 

Q.  Your  father  was  opposed  to  your  brother’s  marriage?  A.  Yes, 
sir.  We  have  never  had  much  to  do  with  each  other  since. 

Q.  That  is  the  half  brother  that  is  here?  A.  Yes,  sir;  so  I  don’t 
know  much  about  him,  nor  can’t  say  much. 

Q.  He  only  came  to  see  you  one  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Harrison — Did  you  ever  see  any  body  lice  on  patients?  A. 
Many  a  time. 

Q.  How  about  head?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  seen  them  too.  I  have 
taken  them  off  of  them. 

Q.  Was  it  a  pretty  general  thing  that  they  had  body  lice  through 
the  wards?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  - ,  are  you  suffering  from  any  troubles  besides  the 

trouble  now  after  this  operation  has  been  performed,  any  other 
physical  trouble?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  it?  A.  They  say  my  lungs  have  been  affected  since 
I  have  been  in  here. 

Q.  They  say  you  have  consumption?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Where  did  you  contract  that?  A.  Here. 

Mr.  Carey — While  an  inmate  here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  you  came  to  contract  that  ?  Do  you  think 
you  got  it  from  the  other  patients?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  there  any  patients  on  your  ward  that  had  tuberculosis? 
A.  I  don’t  know.  I  could  not  tell  exactly  how  many  there  were. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  sleep  in  the  same  room  with  any  of  them  while 
here?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  stay  in  the  same  room  with  them  ?  A.  No,  sir.  I 
always  had  a  room  to  myself. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  sleep  with  any  person  that  had  lung  trouble  in 
your  life?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  in  mind  any  particular  person  that  you  could  have 
caught  that  from  ?  A.  Outside  of  them  ?  I  was  thrown  with  them 


9— A. 


130 


all  the  time,  drinking  and  where  they  would  spit  on  the  side  of  the 
wall,  something  like  that. 

Q.  Was  there  any  weakness  about  your  lungs  before  you  came 
here?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  after  you  got  out  before  you  discovered  this  trouble? 
A.  I  was  coughing  when  I  left  here.  I  had  that  before  I  left  here. 
I  leave  that  to  Dr.  Thompson.  He  will  decide  that.  He  treated  me 
for  that. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  of  your  own  knowledge,  of  course,  how  your 
lungs  became  involved  ?  A.  No,  sir.  I  went  to  Dr.  Hill  after  1  got 
to  my  brother’s,  and  he  told  me  that  if  I  was  going  to  be  with  the 
children  there  I  wanted  to  be  very  careful,  and  I  felt  that  my  lungs 
were  affected,  that  I  did  not  want  to  stay  in  the  house,  that  it  would 
not  do  for  me  to  be  thrown  with  his  children,  and  the  little  fellows 
thought  so  much  of  me.  I  could  not  get  in  sight  of  the  house  unless 
one  would  come  to  me,  and  I  thought  it  was  best  for  me  to  get  out 
in  an  outhouse  away  from  them,  and  my  brother  had  me  to  go  and 
see  Dr.  Hill  and  let  him  decide.  I  said  that  Dr.  Thompson  had  given 
me  instructions  enough  . to  know  that  something  was  the  matter  with 
my  lungs,  and  I  went  to  Dr.  Hill  and  asked  him,  and  he  said  he 
thought  they  were  affected,  and  I  said,  “I  am  glad  you  told  me;  it 
will  make  me  more  careful  where  I  spit.”  He  told  me  that  and  one 
thing  and  another  and  I  went  home  and  told  my  brother,  and  he 
said  he  could  not  bear  the  idea  of  my  staying  out  there,  and  just 
before  I  came  down  here  I  was  fixing  to  get  out  in  the  fresh  air. 

The  Chairman — You  spoke  about  whitewashing  some  of  the 
rooms.  Did  that  seem  to  benefit  the  rooms?  A.  Yes,  sir,  a  great 
deal. 

Q.  In  what  way?  A.  It  kept  them  down.  I  made  the  whitewash, 
and  after  I  made  the  whitewash — 

Q.  What  I  want  to  find  out  is  what  you  mean — it  kept  down  the 
vermin?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Why  didn’t  you  whitewash  more  than  one  or  two  rooms?  You 
didn’t  have  time  to  whitewash  a  good  many?  A.  I  don’t  know.  I 
was  willing  to  help  them. 

O.  Could  you  whitewash  all  the  rooms,  or  your  room?  A.  I  told 
Mr.  Mitchell  I  would  be  glad  to  do  so,  to  whitewash  my  room. 

0.  How  long  had  those  rooms  been  unwhitewashed?  A.  I  could 
not  tell  you.  I  was  here  three  years,  and  it  had  not  been  since  I  was 
here. 


Q.  You  say  that  while  Mr.  Wilson  was  on  your  ward  things  went 
pretty  well?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  about  after  he  went  off?  A.  Tough,  and  I  had  a  tough 
time  too,  let  me  tell  you. 

Q.  Who  went  on  the  ward  after  he  went  off?  A.  Durham  Brown, 
There  were  one  or  two  changes  made,  several  times.  One  would 
come  a  month,  just  kept  changing  them  around. 

0.  What  was  the  difference  in  their  management  and  that  of 
Mr.  Wilson?  A.  A  big  difference,  rough  to  the  patients,  caused 
me  more  trouble  getting  them  to  bed  and  one  thing  and  another, 
young  men.  You  know  how  young  men  are. 

Q.  The  patients  were  very  much  easier  for  you  to  manage  when 
you  had  a  kind  nurse?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I  could  get  along  with  them 
and  handle  them.  I  never  hurt  them  myself,  and  I  don't  think 
Mr.  Wilson  ever  did.  I  had  a  nice  time  when  he  was  there. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  report  Durham  Brown  and  Smith  for  eating 
eggs  and  other  delicacies  intended  for  patients?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  incident?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  will  tell  you 
about  that.  The  eggs  would  come  in  and  they  would  keep  eating 
them.  They  would  take  them  from  the  poor  fellows.  I  tried  to  get 
them  to  stop  it,  and  then  to  raise  no  disturbance  I  would  take  my 
egg  and  put  it  on  the  other  one’s  plate.  They  would  not  pay 
any  attention  to  me.  They  would  eat  the  bigger  portion  of  the 
eggs  and  the  patients  would  have  to  go  without  them ;  so  I  reported 
that. 

Q.  What  was  the  result  of  your  reporting  that?  A.  There  was 
something  said  to  them  about  it.  I  don’t  know  what. 

Q.  Well,  go  on.  Did  the  nurses  stop?  A.  Then  they  commenced 
to  illtreating  me.  I  would  get  ill  treatment  every  time  I  would 
report. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  bathing  some  patients  in  the  same  water.  Were 
any  of  them  diseased?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  disease  did  they  have?  A.  Itch.  They  would  come 
in  patches  on  each  side.  I  painted  them  every  night.  They  had 
some  varnish  that  I  painted  it  with.  They  said  it  would  kill  it. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  the  conditions  on  your  ward  while  Mr.  Wilson 
was  there  as  being  pretty  good?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  At  that  time  did  you  see  the  conditions  on  the  other  wards? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Which  were  the  good  wards  and  which  the  poor  wards,  as  far 
as  cleanliness  and  the  general  condition  they  were  kept  in  were 


132 


concerned?  A.  The  fourth  and  seventh  were  probably  the  worst 
wards.  They  were  just  simply  awful.  You  would  have  to  hold  your 
nose  to  go  through  sometimes. 

Q.  Was  that  due  largely  to  the  plumbing  or  to  not  keeping  the 
patients  clean  ?  A.  They  did  not  keep  the  patients  clean  and  throw¬ 
ing  stuff  in  the  rooms  and  letting  it  stay  in  there. 

Q.  What  were  the  conditions  in  the  other  wards?  A.  Which 
ones  ? 

0.  You  have  spoken  of  the  fourth  and  seventh,  you  were  on  the 
fifth  ?  A.  The  first  and  second — that  was  a  parlor  to  this.  That 
was  the  best  ward  in  the  institution,  the  second  ward,  then  the 
sixth  was  next.  That  was  a  very  good  ward.  They  were  all  better 
wards  than  mine. 

Q.  Would  the  patients  on  the  white  male  wards  have  occupation 
of  some  kind  or  other,  nearly  all  of  them?  A.  Yes,  sir.  The  patients 
would  do  all  the  work,  you  know,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  their  occupation?  A.  Scouring,  washing  the 
patients,  scouring  out  the  spittoons,  everything  that  was  needed  on 
the  ward. 

Q.  I  was  speaking  of  work  like  farm  work,  laundry  work,  and 
that  kind  of  thing?  A.  They  did  not  do  anything  like  that,  the 
patients.  They  had  hired  men  for  that. 

Q.  Was  the  heat  satisfactory  in  the  winter  time?  A.  Sometimes 
it  was  very  good  and  then  again  it  was  cold  at  times. 

Q.  How  was  it  in  the  dining  rooms  ?  A.  Sometimes  it  was  pretty 
cold. 

Q.  That  was  only  occasionally  ?  A.  Occasionally,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  some  of  the  nurses  illiterate,  have  a  hard  time  reading? 
A.  Yes,  sir;  a  great  deal,  some  of  them. 

0.  Did  you  say  all  the  nurses  could  read?  A.  No,  sir.  Some 
of  them  could  not.  I  would  have  to  do  so  for  some  of  them. 

0.  Would  you  have  to  help  them  any  time?  A.  Sometimes  they 
could  not  make  it  out  and  I  would  make  it  out  for  them. 

0.  What?  A.  Directions  on  the  bottles. 

Q.  The  labels  on  the  bottles  ?  A.  They  could  not  read  them. 

Q.  Could  they  read  the  prescriptions  that  the  doctor  left  for 
them — the  prescriptions?  A.  I  don’t  know,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  read  the  prescriptions  for  them?  A.  Yes.  sir. 

0.  What  nurses  were  those?  A.  Kelly  was  one. 

0.  What  others?  A.  I  believe  John  Abbot.  He  was  not  a  regu¬ 
lar.  I  hate  to  give  his  name.  He  was  a  good  fellow,  but  at  the 


133 


same  time  he  could  not  do  it.  He  worked  in  the  mess  hall,  but  they 
would  put  him  on  when  they  would  get  in  a  tight  place,  when  they 
could  not  get  anybody  on  the  wards.  And  Durham  Brown.  He 
has  asked  me  several  times  to  read  things  on  the  ward  for  him. 

Q.  Was  it  the  general  idea  among  the  patients  that  the  Super- 
perintendent  and  the  Regents  were  willing  to  let  them  get  out  of 
here?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  could  not  get  out  though. 

Q.  Wasn't  it  the  idea,  or  the  rule  here,  after  you  came,  that  all 
your  complaints  to  the  Superintendent  and  the  Regents  would  have 
to  come  through  some  of  the  officers?  A.  Yes,  sir.  That  was  the 
way. 

Q.  All  the  complaints  that  you  wanted  the  Regents  and  the  Super¬ 
intendent  to  consider  would  have  to  go  through  to  doctor  or  Mr. 
Mitchell?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Mitchell  or  Dr.  Thompson?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Harrison — Where  would  they  wash  the  pots  that  they  kept 
in  the  patients’  rooms  ?  A.  In  the  sink. 

Q.  Was  that  done  on  all  the  wards  in  the  same  way?  Would 
they  ever  wash  them  anywhere  else?  A.  No,  sir,  only  in  the  sinks. 

Q.  That  is  the  proper  place  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman — Were  they  ever  put  out  in  the  sun?  A.  The 
spittoons  ? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Carey — Do  you  think  of  anything  you  would  like  to  state 
of  your  own  accord  that  you  have  not  stated?  A.  Well,  I  don't 
know,  sir. 

Q.  In  explanation  of  any  part  of  your  testimony,  or  any  matter 
we  may  have  overlooked.  If  you  do  you  can  state  it.  The  testimony 
has  been  three  hours  long.  I  have  been  trying  to  bring  out  all  that 
I  thought  you  knew?  A.  I  hope  and  always  tried  not  to  misrepre¬ 
sent  anything,  and  if  there  is  anything  that  you  all  doubt,  I  want 
you  all  to  bring  up  the  men,  so  that  I  can  call  in  men  that  know 
these  are  facts.  I  would  hate  to  mislead  you  in  anything.  I  always 
try  to  be  careful  never  to  mislead  in  anything  or  misrepresent  any¬ 
thing.  Now,  this  man,  Mr.  Wilson,  has  been  on  the  wards  with  me 
is  the  reason  I  asked  for  him  to  come.  I  met  him  on  the  street 
and  I  saw  him  on  the  corner,  and  if  there  is  anything  you  want  to 
ask  I  would  like  for  him  to  state  it. 

Q.  We  will  examine  him. 


134 


Mr.  Henry  C.  Wilson,  was  thereupon  duly  sworn,  and  testified 
as  follows : 

Mr.  Carey — Mr.  Wilson,  where  do  you  live?  A.  I  live  here  in 
town. 

Q.  In  Columbia?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  ever  employed  in  this  institution?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  position  did  you  hold?  A.  I  was  on  the  ward. 

Q.  Keeper  on  one  of  the  wards?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Which  ward  were  you  on  ?  A.  When  I  first  came  here  I  was 
put  on  the  first  ward. 

Q.  When  was  that?  A.  Three  years  ago. 

Q.  How  long?  A.  The  fourth  of  June  will  be  three  years  ago. 

Q.  When  did  you  cease  to  be  an  employee  of  the  institution? 
A.  The  fourth  day  of  April,  I  believe  it  was. 

Q.  Last  April?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  were  not  discharged?  A.  No,  sir,  I  did  not  quit.  I  was 
discharged. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  difficulty  or  any  misunderstanding,  or 
unpleasantness  with  any  officer  of  the  institution  about  the  time 
you  quit?  A.  Well,  yes,  sir.  They  had  commenced  to  clean  up 
the  wards,  giving  out  sandpaper,  sandpapering  the  wards.  I  did 
not  do  that.  I  gave  it  out  to  some  of  the  patients  on  the  ward,  and 
they  sandpapered  some.  I  took  a  broom  and  some  Gold  Dust  and 
a  brush,  and  went  all  over  the  rooms  and  washed  myself,  washed 
the  ward  as  good  as  I  could. 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Mitchell  instruct  you  to  do  that  work  yourself  and 
you  gave  it  to  the  patients?  A.  No,  sir,  not  particularly. 

Q.  Did  you  decline  to  do  the  work,  any  part  of  it?  A.  When 
they  came  to  the  whitewashing,  I  did.  That  was  on  Monday  morn¬ 
ing,  I  believe.  It  was  on  the  third  or  fourth,  I  came  back  from  break¬ 
fast,  and  I  mopped  out  the  sitting  room  with  the  help  of  some  of  the 
patients,  and  I  went  from  there.  I  had  gotten  some  liquid  to  kill 
those  chinches,  and  I  went  into  the  big  room,  and  I  had  put  it  over 
about  fourteen  beds.  I  lacked  about  two,  and  they  had  been  over 
some  of  the  other  wards,  and  Mr.  Kelley  came  up  there  and  told 
me  that  Dr.  Thompson  sent  word  for  me  and  my  partner  to  go  and 
whitewash  the  walls,  and  I  told  him  I  was  not  going  to  do  it. 

Q.  That  you  were  not  going  to  do  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  there  any  hard  feeling  connected  with  your  refusal,  Mr. 
Wilson  ?  A.  In  what  direction  ? 

Q.  Between  you  and  any  of  the  authorities  of  the  institution 


135 


about  this  matter?  A.  No,  sir,  not  a  bit.  I  just  did  not  think  it 
was  my  duty  to  do  it. 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Mitchell  tell  you  you  would  have  to  leave  or  do  that 
work?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  any  one  else  tell  you  so?  A.  After  I  got  my  clothes  on 
I  just  stopped  right  there,  and  the  patienfs  that  were  helping  me 
told  me  not  to  quit.  They  said  we  will  do  your  work  if  you  will 
stay. 

Q.  Who  were  with  you?  A.  Several  patients. 

Q.  Did  anybody  in  connection  with  the  institution  speak  to  you 
about  it?  A.  I  went  from  there  to  my  room  and  came  down  and 
met  Dr.  Thompson,  and  I  told  Dr.  Thompson  that  I  did  not  feel  like 
I  was  able  to  do  the  whitewashing,  and  he  said  we  need  men  that  are 
able  to  do  the  work  on  the  ward. 

Q.  What  did  the  doctor  say?  A.  That  was  about  all  he  said. 

Q.  What  was  it  the  doctor  said,  that  because  you  told  him  you 
could  not  do  the  whitewashing?  A.  I  did  that.  I  do  not  know 
what  caused  me  to  do  that.  I  was  at  work  is  what  caused  me  to  say 
that.  I  just  said  it  merely  through  a  joke  to  Kelley.  I  knew  he 
was  not  going  to  tell  Dr.  Thompson  at  all. 

Q.  When  you  told  the  doctor  you  were  not  going  to  do  it,  did 
you  say  that  was  a  joke?  A.  I  did  not  tell  the  doctor  I  was  not 
going  to  do  it.  I  told  him  I  did  not  feel  it  was  my  duty.  I  did  not 
feel  like  it  was  my  duty. 

Q.  What  did  the  doctor  say?  A.  He  said,  as  well  as  I  can  recall, 
he  says,  “We  need  men  that  will  do  the  work  that  we  want  them  to 
do,”  and  I  did  not  think  it  my  duty  to  go  to  whitewashing.  That 
is  the  reason  I  told  him  I  was  going  to  quit,  and  I  told  him  I  was 
going  to  give  my  reason  to  Dr.  Babcock. 

Q.  Did  you  consider  that  a  discharge?  A.  No,  sir.  I  did  not. 
No,  sir.  Dr.  Babcock  told  me  to  go  back  to  see  Dr.  Thompson. 

Q.  You  went  to  see  Dr.  Babcock?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  you  tell  him  ?  A.  I  told  him  I  had  come  to  hand  in 
my  resignation. 

Q.  To  hand  in  your  resignation  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  tell  him  your  reason?  A.  I  do  not  recollect  exactly 
what  I  told  him.  I  recollect  him  telling  me  that  I  had  better  go 
back  and  talk  it  over  with  Dr.  Thompson,  and  I  told  him  I  did  not 
care  to  do  it. 

Q.  Did  the  doctor  accept  your  resignation?  A.  Yes,  sir.  He 
told  me — I  forget  what  he  said.  He  talked  it  over  with  me.  He 


136 


told  me  to  go  ahead  if  it  was  my  wishes.  I  asked  if  I  could  get  my 
money  and  he  said  certainly. 

Q.  Those  are  the  circumstances  connected  with  your  leaving? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  consider  yourself  ordered  to  do  that  work?  A.  Yes, 
sir.  I  certainly  did.  * 

Q.  And  did  you  consider  your  conduct  a  refusal  to  do  it?  A. 
Yes,  sir.  I  considered  my  quitting.  That  is  the  reason  I  went  t.o 
Dr.  Thompson. 

Q.  Did  you  consider  then  that  you  were  resigning  because  you 
were  ordered  to  do  work  you  were  not  willing  to  do,  and  that  that 
was  the  occasion  for  your  leaving  the  institution?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
That  was  about  it. 

Q.  What  ward  did  you  have  supervision  of  while  you  were  in 

here?  Were  you  in  the  ward  where  Mr.  -  was?  A.  I  was 

about  six  months  ago,  I  think,  as  well  as  I  can  recollect.  I  do  not 
recollect  exactly  what  time  it  was.  I  was  on  the  ninth  ward  at  first, 
not  the  ninth  but  the  tenth. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  about  the  one  he  was  on,  the  first?  A.  Yes, 
sir.  I  was  on  the  first  with  Mr. - about  a  year,  I  think. 

Q.  About  one  year?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  of  these  things  he  testified  to?  These  diffi¬ 
culties  ?  A.  Which  do  you  mean  ? 

Q.  With  any  of  these  patients  and  nurses,  and  abusing  them.  Did 
you  see  any  of  those  things?  A.  I  think  that  was  done  on  the  first 
ward  after  I  left. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  call  in  anybody  there  to  help  you  manage  the 

patients  there  in  the  presence  of  Mr. - ?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  don’t 

know  who  was  there. 

Q.  Who  was  the  patient?  A.  I  was  on  the  veranda  at  the  back 
door  on  the  first  ward,  and  I  heard  a  fuss  about  the  middle  of  that 
ward,  and  I  looked  around,  and  I  saw  something  looked  like  some 
one  fighting. 

Q.  Beyond  you?  A.  Yes,  sir,  and  I  ran  up  there,  and  I  found 
Mr.  Stewart,  and  I  forget  the  name  of  the  patient.  I  can  not  call 
his  name  now. 

0.  Bailey?  A.  No,  sir.  It  was  - ,  a  man  from  the  fourth 

ward,  I  think. 

0.  What  did  he  do  to  him?  A.  He  was  making  him  go  back, 
but  Charlie,  that  was  Charlie  Stewart,  and  I  ran  up  and  caught  him 
by  the  arm.  I  spoke  to  him  and  says,  “You  must  not  fight  here,” 


i37 


and  he  came  up  and  caught  hold  of  me  by  the  other  arm,  and  I  told 
him  we  would  carry  him  on  to  the  ward,  and  he  commenced  knock¬ 
ing  him,  and  I  told  him  he  must  not  do  that.  I  did  tell  him  I  would 
turn  loose  if  he  did  not  quit  hitting  him,  or  something  like  that. 

Q.  What  was  he  knocking  him  about?  A.  I  could  not  tell  you. 

Q.  They  were  in  a  fight  when  your  attention  was  first  called  to 
it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  did  not  see  the  beginning?  A.  No,  sir.  I  did  not  see 
anything  until  I  heard  this  noise  like  they  were  fighting. 

Q.  Who  called  to  you?  A.  Mr.  Stewart. 

Q.  What  did  he  want  with  you  ?  A.  He  wanted  me  to  assist  him. 

Q.  To  do  what?  A.  Keep  that  man  off  him.  I  do  not  know  what 
else. 

Q.  Was  the  man  on  him  ?  A.  He  was  going  on  him. 

Q.  Was  he  mad  at  Stewart?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  think  he  was. 

Q.  Was  he  approaching  him  in  a  threatening  manner?  A.  Yes, 
sir.  I  think  he  was.  He  was  making  to  get  on  him,  I  think. 

Q.  He  was  making  to  get  on  Stewart?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  he  a  large  man?  A.  Not  very. 

Q.  Young  or  old  man?  A.  Charlie  was  a  young  man. 

0.  Appeared  to  be  a  stout  man?  A.  Yes,  sir,  pretty  stout.  He 
was  a  stouter  man  than  Mr.  Stewart. 

Q.  Than  Stewart?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  think  so. 

Q.  What  was  the  trouble  between  him  and  Stewart  about?  A.  I 
could  not  tell  you.  I  heard  some  one  say  it  was  some  difficulty 
between  them  on  the  wards  somewhere. 

Q.  Did  Stewart  appear  to  be  mad?  A.  Well,  he  did  after  he 
got  hold  of  him.  He  knocked  him  once  I  know  of.  I  do  not  know 
whether  he  hit  him  more  than  once  or  not 

Q.  What  did  he  hit  him  with  ?  A.  With  his  fist. 

Q.  What  was  the  patient  doing  when  he  struck  him?  A.  I  had 
hold  of  one  arm.  but  he  struck  him. 

Q.  Was  he  making  any  effort  to  strike  Stewart?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  had  hold  of  the  patient  with  one  hand?  A.  I  had  one 
and  he  the  other.  He  took  hold  after  I  caught  him. 

Q.  Did  he  strike  him  on  the  head  ?  A.  He  struck  him  on  the  back 
of  the  neck  or  on  the  shoulder  somewhere. 

Q.  Did  he  appear  to  be  angry  when  he  struck  him?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  'Did  he  hit  him  more  than  one  lick  ?  A.  I  could  not  tell  you. 
I  do  not  know  whether  he  hit  him  more  than  once  or  not. 
I  told  him  he  must  stop  hitting  him  at  once. 


138 


Q.  How  did  the  matter  terminate?  Did  the  patient  submit  to 
him?  A.  They  carried  him  on.  I  forget  whether  they  put  straps 
on  him  or  carried  him  to  his  room.  I  think,  though,  we  locked 
him  up. 

Q.  Did  you  go  on  with  Mr.  Stewart?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  went  on 
and  carried  him. 

Q.  You  only  recall  one  lick  or  stroke?  A.  I  do  not  think  he 
struck  him  more  than  once. 

Q.  Were  you  one  of  the  keepers  at  that  time?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I 
was  on  the  first  ward,  I  believe,  at  that  time. 

Q.  Did  you  report  that  matter  to  anyone?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Why  did  you  not  do  it?  A.  Well,  that  was  something  I  never 
did  do,  to  report  anything.  I  did  not  think  it  was  worth  while  to 
report  it.  I  just  know  he  hated  to  do  it. 

Q.  He  disliked  to  do  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

£).  You  never  mentioned  it  to  Dr.  Thompson?  A.  No,  sir,  never 
did  mention  it. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  any  other  cases  of  assault  upon  a  patient  by 
a  keeper?  A.  I  declare  I  paid  very  little  attention  to  the  other 
keepers.  I  think  I  have  seen  some,  but  I  cannot  recollect.  I  cannot 
state. 

Q.  You  could  not  state  who  or  when?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  the  only  instance  you  can  recollect?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  recollect  any  instance  of  abuse  or  teasing  or  worry¬ 
ing  of  the  patients  by  the  keepers?  A.  Well,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  did  that  ?  A.  I  have  seen  where  they  have  been  abused. 
I  do  not  know  that  I  could  say  exactly  who  did  it. 

Q.  What  character  of  abuse  did  you  see?  A.  I  saw  one  that 
looked  like  he  had  been  cut  with  a  strap.  That  is  what  he  said. 

Q.  Cut  with  a  strap?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  his  name?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who?  A.  - . 

Q.  You  saw  where  he  looked  like  he  had  been  cut  with  a  strap? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  he  claim  the  injury  occurred?  A.  He  said  a  nurse 
did  it. 

Q.  Did  he  say  who  the  nurse  was?  A.  Mr.  Cantey,  I  think. 

0.  Cantey?  A.  I  think  that  was  his  name. 

Q.  Pretty  severe?  A.  I  saw  two  or  three  stripes  on  his  leg. 

Q.  Did  he  complain  of  its  hurting  him?  A.  Yes,  sir.  He  com¬ 
plained  of  it. 


139 


Q.  Did  you  report  that  to  anyone?  A.  I  do  not  believe  I  did. 
I  think  he  had  it  reported.  It  seems  to  me  like  he  told  me  he  had 
shown  it  to  Dr.  Thompson  himself. 

Q.  You  made  no  report  of  it?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  any  other  instance  while  you  were  in  there? 
A.  Well,  no,  sir. 

Q.  Can  you  recall  any  instance  of  cursing,  or  worrying,  or  teasing 
patients  by  those  keepers  ?  A.  I  have  known  this  same  patient 
to  be  teased  a  right  smart.  He  is  powerful  mouthy. 

Q.  Mouthy?  A.  Yes,  sir.  Mighty  easy  to  tease. 

Q.  Who  teased  him?  A.  Well,  pretty  well  all  over  the  ward. 
Very  well  every  patient. 

Q.  Patients  and  nurses?  A.  Patients  and  nurses,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  disposition  of  that  patient,  very  touchy?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  powerful  mouthy,  but  there  was  not  any  harm  in  him  in 
the  world. 

Q.  A  big  talker?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Teased  along  that  line?  A.  Yes,  sir.  Just  teased  him  merely 
to  hear  him  talk,  and  get  him  to  speaking. 

Q.  Did  he  seem  to  enjoy  it  himself?  A.  I  do  not  know  whether 
he  did  or  not.  His  actions  did  not  show  like  he  enjoyed  it  at  times. 

Q.  Did  he  get  mad?  A.  O,  yes,  sir,  seemed  to  get  mad.  If  you 
go  after  him  he  would  make  a  powerful  fuss  and  then  go  on.  He 
never  went  in  to  fight  any  person  though. 

Q.  Just  disposed  to  have  a  little  fun,  was  he?  A.  Well,  I  do 
not  know,  sir.  It  must  have  been  to  the  ones  teasing  him. 

0.  Did  you  participate  in  any  of  that  teasing?  A.  Mighty  little. 

Q.  You  joined  in  some,  did  you?  A.  I  do  not  know.  I  have  said 
something  to  him.  He  seemed  to  think  right  smart  of  me.  He 
would  be  mighty  good  and  kind  for  a  while,  and  I  could  just  say  a 
word  that  would  go  against  him  a  little,  and  he  would  be  as  bad  on 
me  as  any  person. 

Q.  Was  that  teasing  in  a  spirit  of  having  fun  or  was  it  done  for 
the  purpose  of  worrying  him,  and  making  him  mad,  Mr.  Wilson? 
A.  I  think  it  was  done  because  they  loved  to  hear  him. 

0.  They  loved  to  hear  him  talk?  A.  Yes,  sir,  just  to  see  what  he 
would  do. 

Q.  How  insane  was  he?  A.  Well,  that  was  about  all  the  insanity 
I  saw  about  him,  just  mouthy. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  mix  up  with  any  of  the  patients  in  any  fights 


140 


or  quarrels  while  you  were  in  there?  A.  Mix  up  with  any  of  the 
patients  in  any  quarrels? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  I  have  had  to  go  about  them  when  they  got  into 
difficulties  amongst  themselves. 

Q.  Would  they  do  much  of  that?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  been  in 
several. 

0.  How  were  they  as  to  control  ?  Were  they  pretty  hard  or  easy 
to  control  by  the  nurses?  A.  Pretty  easy.  I  have  had  one  or  two 
to  turn  on  me,  but  it  is  mighty  seldom  that  they  ever  do. 

Q.  Seldom  that  you  could  not  control  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  These  nurses  generally,  while  you  were  in  here,  how  did  they 
treat  them?  A.  The  nurses? 

Q.  Yes,  were  they  kind  to  them?  A.  Well,  yes,  sir.  In  some 
cases  you  know  they  had  to  be  pretty  rough.  Sometimes  you  had 
to  treat  one  pretty  rough  to  let  him  know  that  you  could  boss  him, 
something  like  that. 

Q.  You  did  know  of  cases  that  you  thought  the  nurses  were  not 
justifiable?  A.  Well,  I  have  seen  some  cases  that  I  did  not  think 
they  were,  but  I  could  not  state  exactly  what  they  were  now. 

0.  Were  there  ever  any  complaints  of  your  treatment  of  them 
by  the  patients,  or  did  you  get  along?  A.  Not  that  I  know  of.  I 
always  got  along  pretty  well.  I  do  not  know  of  any  one  that  has 
notified  against  me.  If  they  did  I  do  not  know  it. 

Q.  It  is  pretty  responsible,  especially  to  be  over  those  wards?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  it  is  so. 

Q.  There  are  all  sorts  of  patients  in  there,  some  noisy?  A.  Yes, 

sir ;  there  is  an  old  fellow  by  the  name  of - on  the  ninth  ward. 

When  he  is  all  right  he  is  just  as  nice  a  man  as  could  be,  but  when 
he  got  off  he  was  right  the  other  way,  hard  to  manage. 

Q.  Did  you  try  to  do  your  duty  towards  them?  A.  Yes,  sir,  as 
near  as  I  could. 

O.  Did  you  get  along  pretty  well  ?  A.  I  got  along  pretty  well  on 
every  ward  I  have  been  on.  I  have  been  on  the  second,  the  tenth, 
the  ninth,  and  on  the  first  a  long  time. 

Q.  Were  they  disposed  to  fuss  much  among  themselves,  the 
patients?  A.  Not  very  much.  Sometimes  they  would  get  into  a 
fuss.  I  have  had  to  put  straps  on  some  of  them,  and  lock  some  of 
them  up. 

Q.  What  would  that  be  for — fussing?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Would  they  do  better  after  that?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Punishment  seemed  to  do  good?  A.  Yes,  sir;  lock  one  up 


and  he  does  not  seem  to  like  it  at  all.  He  will  agree  to  do  right  if 
you  will  let  him  out.  I  have  locked  them  up  in  a  dark  room  when 
they  get  to  fighting  there. 

Q.  How  did  you  get  along  with  Mr.  Mitchell?  A.  Well,  sir;  very 
well. 

Q.  He  seemed  to  discharge  his  duties?  A.  I  think  so,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  you  get  along  with  Dr.  Thompson  ?  A.  I  do  not 
know  that  I  ever  had  anything  against  Dr.  Thompson  or  him  against 
me.  If  he  has,  I  do'  not  know  it. 

Q.  Was  there  anybody  else  in  your  department  that  you  did  not 
get  along  with  ?  A.  I  did  think  once  may  be,  I  do  not  know  whether 
it  was  Dr.  Thompson  or  Mr.  Mitchell,  they  did  me  wrong  in  send¬ 
ing  me  from  the  first  ward  to  the  fourth.  I  think  they  did  me 
wrong  then. 

Q.  Transferred  you,  you  mean?  A.  I  do  not  know  what  they 
did  it  for. 

Q.  Dr.  Thompson  was  liked  by  his  associates  on  the  wards, 
nurses  and  patients?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  inspected  closely  when  he  came  through?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I 
think  he  did  all  that  a  man  could  expect  him  to  do.  He  was  mighty 
nice. 

Q.  Careful  in  giving  medicines  and  prescribing  for  the  patients? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  about  foods  for  those  feeble  patients,  was  that  pretty 
good?  A.  Feeble  patients? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  Well,  do  you  mean  sick? 

0.  I  mean  sick.  Those  who  needed  special  attention,  did  they 
get  it?  A.  It  was  always  put  on  sick  duty  carriers,  and  on  the 
carriers  was  put  what  they  got. 

Q.  Who  looked  after  that,  Dr.  Thompson?  A.  He  would  give 
orders,  and  the  man  on  the  ward  would  get  it. 

Q.  Did  you  carry  out  the  instructions  which  you  gentlemen 
received  from  him  in  looking  after  that  ?  A.  I  tried  to  do  it,  sir. 

Q.  How  about  the  cleanliness  on  your  ward?  A.  Well,  there 
were  some  patients  on  the  ward  that  were  not  very  cleanly.  Some¬ 
times  they  would  be  in  bad  shape,  and  sometimes  they  would  not. 

Q.  You  would  make  it  a  rule  to  try  to  keep  them  in  shape?  A. 
I  kept  them  the  best  I  could. 

Q.  Did  you  watch  over  them  and  care  for  them  like  you  would 
if  it  were  you  while  they  were  sick?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  think  I  did  the 
best  I  knew  how. 


142 


Q.  The  wards  themselves  where  you  were,  did  you  keep  them 
clean  or  not  ?  A.  The  wards  that  I  was  on  ? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  Well,  yes,  sir.  I  kept  them  just  as  clean  as  I  could. 
There  were  some  pretty  filthy  patients,  you  know,  and  it  was  a 
crowded  ward,  and  we  kept  it  in  pretty  good  fix. 

0.  Considering  the  class  of  patients  that  were  in  there,  do  you 
think  those  wards  were  kept  as  clean  as  could  reasonably  be 
expected?  A.  No,  sir,  they  could  have  been  kept  in  a  better  fix. 

0.  Why  did  not  you  keep  them  in  a  better  fix?  What  was  the 
reason  they  were  not  ?  A.  I  suppose  it  was  the  help. 

0.  The  help  was  not  sufficient  ?  A.  No,  sir ;  and  very  often  you 
had  the  beds  to  scour,  and  you  would  have  to  do  the  scouring  every 
day  to  keep  them  in  a  better  fix. 

0.  Scour  the  floors?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  about  the  walls?  A.  The  walls  could  have  been  white¬ 
washed,  and  I  think  they  would  have  been  in  better  shape. 

Q.  Was  it  done?  A.  Not  until  right  here  lately. 

Q.  How  long  has  it  been  since  it  was  whitewashed?  A.  I  do  not 
know,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  been  through  there  lately?  A.  No,  sir,  not  since  I 
left.  I  have  not  been  back  at  all. 

Q.  Were  not  most  of  the  walls  cleaned  up  before  you  left?  A. 
They  had  whitewashed  the  second  and  sixth  and  just  commenced 
on  the  ninth  to  whitewash.  An  old  colored  man  did  the  whitewash¬ 
ing  generally. 

Q.  What  was  the  condition  of  the  walls  before  they  were  white¬ 
washed  there?  A.  Pretty  bad  condition. 

Q.  What  was  the  reason?  A.  Seemed  to  be  dirty,  patients  rub¬ 
bing  against  them  and  spitting  too,  color-marked  right  smart. 

Q.  It  is  a  pretty  hard  job  to  keep  the  walls  clean?  A.  Well,  no, 
sir.  I  do  not  think  so. 

Q.  When  had  they  been  whitewashed  before?  A.  I  could  not 
tell  you. 

Q.  You  do  not  know?  A.  Not  since  I  have  been  here,  not  until 
this  last  whitewashing,  not  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  Is  that  the  only  time  you  know  of?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  has  been  done  this  year?  A.  This  year,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  down  in  the  kitchen?  A.  No,  sir;  I  hardly  ever 
went  into  the  kitchen. 

Q.  How  about  the  dairy?  A.  No,  sir. 


143 


Q.  About  the  big  mess  hall  where  the  meals  were  served?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  in  the  mess  hall,  pretty  well,  very  well. 

Q.  How  were  you  impressed  with  the  meals  served?  A.  They 
got  plenty. 

Q.  How  about  the  variety?  A.  I  do  not  know  hardly  what  to  say 
about  that. 

Q.  The  preparation  of  it,  do  you  think  it  was  prepared  very  well? 
A.  No,  sir ;  I  do  not  think  it  was  prepared  as  well  as  it  could  have 
been. 

Q.  What  was  the  reason  of  the  bad  preparation?  A.  The  hominy 
very  often  came  in  with  lumps  in  it,  and  I  think  it  was  rawer  than 
it  ought  to  have  been  sometimes.  The  greens,  such  as  cabbage  and 
turnips,  came  cooked  pretty  well,  cooked  most  too  much. 

Q.  The  rice?  A.  Hardly  had  any  rice,  only  on  one  table.  The 
farm  hands  table  generally  had  the  rice. 

Q.  Was  it  an  inferior  grade  of  rice?  A.  I  could  not  tell.  It 
looked  mighty  poor  at  times.  Sometimes  it  looked  all  right. 

Q.  How  was  the  coffee  and  milk?  A.  The  coffee,  I  do  not  know, 
sir,  much  about  it.  I  drank  some  we  had  ourselves.  It  was  not  very 
strong. 

Q.  Was  that  cooked  in  the  kitchen?  A.  I  suppose  cooked  at  the 
same  place. 

Q.  Any  objections  to  the  milk?  A.  Yes,  sir;  you  could  see  some 
settlings  in  the  bottom  of  it. 

Q.  In  the  bottom  of  the  cup  you  drank  out  of?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  the  patients  complain  of  the  milk?  A.  I  never  heard  any 
complaint,  no,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  any  complaint  of  any  of  the  other  food  ?  A. 
Yes,  sir ;  I  heard  them,  while  eating,  say  it  was  not  fitten  to  eat  or 
something  like  that.  Said  they  could  not  eat  it. 

Q.  Did  they  eat  pretty  heartily?  A.  Most  of  them  would. 

Q.  Most  of  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  nothing  to  do  with  operation  of  the  farm?  A.  No, 
sir. 

Q.  Nor  the  dairy?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Nor  the  kitchen?  A.  No. 

Q.  Did  you  know  who  the  cooks  were?  A.  No,  sir.  I  knew  the 
man  that  attended  to  it,  but  I  didn't  know  the  cooks. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  they  were  patients?  A.  Well, 
from  what  I  could  hear  and  see,  I  knew  that  some  patients  were  out 
there,  but  then  there  were  other  hired  cooks  in  there. 


144 


Q.  Did  you  hear  what  this  witness  said  about  the  bugs,  lice  and 
things?  What  efforts  did  you  make  to  stamp  that  out  in  your  ward? 
A.  We  just  had  to  use  the  liquid.  We  had  to  go  over  and  put  it  on 
the  beds  and  bedsteads.  Very  often  we  would  put  it  all  over  the 
walls. 

Q.  Was  it  impossible  to  stamp  them  out?  A.  It  looked  so,  yes, 
sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  effect  of  these  efforts  to  exterminate  them  in 
the  rooms?  A.  I  have  gone  over  it  and  then  gone  back  in  a  day 
or  two,  and  there  were*  as  many  as  when  I  went  over  it. 

Q.  They  multiplied  rapidly?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Would  they  be  on  the  mattresses  or  the  bedsteads?  A.  On 
the  mattresses  and  bedsteads  too. 

Q.  Did  you  all  try  to  prevent  that  condition  of  affairs  in  there? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  much  as  you  knew  how?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  report  it  as  impossible  to  stamp  them  out?  A.  It 
did  look  like  it.  They  got  into  holes  in  the  walls.  They  got  all  in 
the  walls,  and  around  the  facing  of  the  windows  and  window  sills. 

Q.  It  got  to  a  pass  where  they  could  not  be  got  out  by  the  use  of 
the  liquid?  A.  It  looked  so.  I  went  over  it  with  a  spray  last  year. 
I  got  a  spray  and  went  all  over  it.  but  it  looked  like  we  could  not 
clear  them  out. 

0.  Did  you  ever  see  any  body  lice  in  there?  A.  No,  sir.  I  do 
not  know  that  I  have,  only  on  the  heads  of  some  of  the  patients. 
They  are  very  bad  on  some  patients,  when  they  come  in. 

Q.  When  they  first  come  in?  A.  We  clip  their  hair  and  find 
them  on  their  heads,  on  the  bodies  sometimes,  too.  We  clipped 
their  hair,  and  stripped  and  bathed  them,  and  put  clean  clothes  on 
them  when  they  first  come  in. 

O.  Was  it  one  of  your  duties  to  bathe  the  patients?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  about  bathing  them?  Did  you  do  it  regularly?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  often  ?  A.  Generally  bathed  them  every  week. 

0.  Did  you  ever  bathe  more  than  one  in  the  same  water?  A.  I 
could  not  tell  you  for  certain  whether  I  have  or  not ;  because  up  on 
the  ward  I  would  generally  attend  to  the  bathing  myself,  and  I 
would  let  on  the  water  and  many  times  there  would  be  three  or  four 
stripped  and  ready  to  get  in,  maybe  two  at  once. 

Q.  Would  you  let  two  in  at  once?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  seen  two, 
and  maybe  one  would  get  out. 


i45 


0.  Maybe  one  would  get  out  ?  A.  Maybe  I  would  not  be  in  there 
right  at  the  time.  I  would  not  say  but  that  two  were  bathed  in 
the  same  water. 

Q.  Would  you  allow  it  done  when  you  could  prevent  it?  A.  No, 
sir. 

*Q.  Did  you  ever  bathe  one  and  put  another  into  the  same  water? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  keepers  that  did?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Any  scarcity  of  water  ?  A.  I  never  did  bathe  up  there. 

Q.  Was  there  any  scarcity  of  water?  A.  No,  sir.  I  think  we  had 
plenty  of  water  always. 

Q.  Both  warm  and  cold  water?  A.  Yes,  sir.  No,  sir,  not  warm 
water.  I  have  explained  to  Mr.  Mitchell,  and  he  told  me  not  to 
let  them  bathe  in  cold  water,  not  to  bathe  them  at  all,  if  we  could 
not  get  warm  water  for  them. 

Q.  Would  you  have  allowed  them  to  bathe  the  different  patients 
in  the  same  water?  A.  If  I  had  been  there  I  would  have  stopped  it. 

Q.  If  it  was  done  on  your  ward  it  was  done  against  your  wishes? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  under  the  circumstances  you  could  not  stop  it?  A.  I 
have  bathed  many  a  one  of  them,  just  washed  them  myself. 

Q.  Did  that  occur  much  on  the  ward?  A.  Often  I  would  have 
to  go  in  there  and  make  them  get  back,  all  going  into  it. 

Q.  All  in  the  same  water?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Certainly  you  were  against  that?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Do  you  know  of  any  of  the  other  keepers  doing  it?  A.  No, 
sir.  I  do  not,  because  I  was  always  on  the  same  floor,  and  all 
bathing  at  the  same  time. 

Q.  Did  you  have  a  set  of  rules  to  go  by?  A.  No,  sir.  I  do  not 
recollect  ever  seeing  any  rules. 

Q.  You  never  saw  any  rules?  A.  Only  about  the  water  and 
the  electric  lights.  There  was  a  paper  stuck  up  about  that. 

Q.  How  did  you  know  what  your  duties  were?  A.  I  just  felt  all 
the  time  I  was  to  do  what  I  was  told  on  the  first  ward. 

Q.  Who  told  you  ?  Who  instructed  you  ?  A.  I  forget  who.  He 
was  on  the  first  floor. 

Q.  Did  Dr.  Thompson  give  you  any  instructions  as  to  what  you 
were  to  expect?  A.  Never,  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  Who  was  the  man  on  the  first  ward  who  did  that?  A.  I  think, 
as  well  as  I  can  remember,  it  was  Mr.  Bookman. 


10— A. 


146 


Q.  Was  he  the  man  who  was  superintending?  Was  he  at  the 
head  of  it?  A.  Yes,  sir,  he  was  running  that  ward, 

Q.  He  ran  that  ward?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  got  your  instructions  then  from  him?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  general  feeling  of  the  patients  towards  Dr. 
Thompson?  A.  Well,  they  seemed  to  think  right  smart  of  Dt-. 
Thompson,  seemed  to  like  him  all  right.  I  have  heard  several 
cursing  him  and  abusing  him,  but  I  did  not  think  they  had  any 
reason  for  it. 

Q.  You  saw  no  occasion  for  it?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  any  of  them  in  their  right  mind  doing  that?  A. 
I  do  not  think  so.  I  do  not  think  that  they  would  have  done  it  if 
they  had  been  in  their  right  mind. 

Q.  How  did  you  regard  Dr.  Thompson  as  a  public  physician? 
You  were  under  him?  A.  I  always  took  him  to  be  a  mighty  nice 
man,  always  treated  me  very  nicely. 

Q.  His  heart  seemed  to  be  in  his  work?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Careful  with  them  ?  A.  I  have  spoken  many  a  time  about  him 
having  the  patience  he  has  had  with  the  people  on  the  ward  follow¬ 
ing  him  up  and  abusing  him,  and  he  would  never  say  anything  but 
yes,  yes,  or  something  like  that. 

Q.  Was  there  ever  any  complaint  against  you  by  the  patients 
while  you  were  a  nurse  over  them?  A.  If  there  was,  I  do  not 
know  it. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  of  any?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  I  believe  you  were  in  there  about  three  years  ?  A.  Lacking 
two  months. 

Q.  So,  that  little  difficulty  that  you  referred  to  was  the  only 
unpleasantness  you  ever  had  with  any  of  the  authorities?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  And  that  was  a  slight  difficulty  in  your  estimation  ?  A.  Well, 
I  have  had  with  Mr.  Mitchell.  He  has  talked,  I  think,  a  little 
abruptly  to  me,  when  I  thought  he  should  not  have  done  it. 

Q.  How  did  you  think  he  had  mistreated  you?  A.  I  have  for¬ 
given  him  for  that.  He  agreed  that  he  did  not  think  that  I  did  not 
think  that  I  was  in  the  right  about  it. 

Q.  About  what?  A.  He  wanted  me  to  go  off  at  night.  There 
was  some  change  in  his  wards  some  way,  and  there  was  a  misunder¬ 
standing.  He  had  told  Mr.  Tidwell  to  tell  me  to  go  off  that  night, 
and  he  wanted  me  to  stay  on  next  night.  That  was  my  night  on, 
one  night  on  and  one  night  off,  and  we  went  on  to  supper  and  Tid- 


147 


well  never  said  anything  to  me  about  it  until  I  had  eaten  and  every¬ 
thing  was  over  with,  and  I  was  sitting  on  the  veranda  of  the  first 
ward  with  the  patients,  and  he  came  to  the  door  and  asked  me  if 
Mr.  Mitchell  had  not  told  me  to  go  off  duty,  and  I  told  him  no,  and 
then  I  asked  him  did  he  tell  you  to  tell  me,  and  he  says  no.  I  says, 

“Well,  I  will  not  go  off,  then.” 

Q.  How  did  Mr.  Mitchell  treat  the  patients?  A.  Very  nicely,  I 
think. 

Q.  He  would  go  through  the  wards  pretty  often?  A.  Well, 
tolerably. 

Q.  Were  you  all  directly  under  him,  receiving  instructions  from 
him  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  he  thought  pretty  well  of  by  the  nurses  and  patients 
in  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  patients  too?  A.  I  think  so,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  has  he  been  here  ?  A.  I  could  not  tell  you. 

Q.  A  number  of  years?  A.  Yes,  sir;  from  what  I  understand, 
he  has. 

Q.  Did  you  see  much  of  the  Board  of  Regents  while  you  were 
in  here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  see  them  coming  through  in  the  wards,  inspecting 
the  wards?  A.  I  suppose  I  have,  but  I  could  not  recall  it  to  my 
recollection. 

Q.  Did  you  see  much  of  Dr.  Babcock?  A.  No,  sir;  very  little  of 
Dr.  Babcock. 

Q.  Have  you  anything  against  the  doctor  in  the  way  of  treatment? 
A.  No,  sir,  not  a  thing  in  the  world. 

Q.  Nothing?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Wilson,  about  keeping  patients  in  here,  what  is  your 
judgment  about  patients  being  kept  in  here  who  ought  to  be 
released  ?  Can  you  tell  us  anything  of  that  ?  A.  I  have  known  of 
some,  yes. 

Q.  Were  there  a  few  or  a  good  many  of  them?  A.  There  are 
not  many.  I  do  not  think  there  are  so  powerful  many  the  time  I 
have  been  here. 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  the  names  of  any  you  thought  ought  to  be 
out?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  are  they?  A.  Well,  there  was  - .  I  think  he  has 

got  as  good  sense  as  he  ever  had,  seems  like  he  has.  He  has  been 
that  way  for  a  year. 

O.  Is  he  in  here  now?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


148 


0.  You  think  he  ought  to  be  let  out?  A.  It  seems  to  me  like 
he  is  all  right. 

Q.  Is  there  another  name  you  can  mention?  What  do  you  think 

of  Mr. - case?  A.  Air. - I  had  just  about  concluded 

that  he  had  just  about  as  good  sense  as  I  had.  I  did  not  see  any 
difference  between  us. 

0.  Anybody  else?  A.  Well,  one  or  two  more;  Mr.  - ,  I 

think. 

Q.  You  think  he  ought  to  be  let  out?  A.  I  think  he  has  got  his 
good  mind  all  right.  You  can  talk  with  a  patient  and  think  they 
seem  all  right  at  times,  and  then  at  times  you  think  they  are  not 
all  right. 

0.  Do  not  they,  as  a  rule,  want  to  get  out?  A.  Yes,  sir,  most  of 
them. 

Q.  Do  not  they  regard  it  as  an  outrage  that  they  do  not  get  out? 
A.  A  heap  of  them  do.  I  have  known  them  to  walk  after  the 
doctor  there  and  curse  him. 

0.  Because  he  would  not  let  them  out?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  A  good  many  of  them,  I  suppose,  would  seem  all  right  until 
you  touch  the  weak  point  with  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  then  they  get  all  upset?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Harden — You  spoke  of  the  condition  of  the  wards  being 
very  filthy,  some  of  them.  Is  it  the  duty  of  the  keepers  to  see  that 
they  are  kept  clean  ?  A.  I  suppose  so.  I  do  not  know  that  I  spoke 
of  their  being  very  filthy. 

Q.  Some  of  them  being  filthy,  and  I  just  wanted  to  ask  this 
question :  Is  it  not  due  largely  to  the  patients  that  some  are  more 
cleanly  than  others?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  And  it  is  much  easier  to  keep  the  rooms  of  some  of  the  patients 
clean  than  others?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  due,  I  suppose,  largely  to  the  condition  or  habit  of 
cleanliness  on  the  part  of  the  patients  themselves?  A.  I  have  had 
to  clean  out  some  of  the  rooms  in  ward  one  twice  or  three  times 
a  day. 

O.  And  others  once  a  day?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  And  that  would  be  largely  due  to  the  condition  of  the  patients  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Carey — Was  the  conduct  of  Mr.  Syfan  on  the  ward  such  as 
he  has  described  to  us  about  what  he  did  and  things  of  that  kind  ? 
You  heard  his  testimony?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Was  it  satisfactory  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


149 


Q.  Was  he  a  help  to  the  keepers?  A.  Yes,  sir,  he  was. 

Q.  Was  he  kind  to  the  patients?  A.  He  was.  He  was  mighty 
good  and  kind.  He  was  really  nearly  all  the  help  I  had  on  the  first 
ward  in  that  respect. 

The  Chairman — You  had  no  nurse?  A.  Sometimes  I  did  and 
sometimes  I  did  not. 

Q.  How  many  patients  did  you  have?  A.  I  think  there  was 
about  thirty,  thirty  odd. 

Mr.  Carey — Have  you  any  feeling  in  this  matter  against  anybody 
connected  with  the  institution?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  you  come  to  appear  as  a  witness  in  the  case?  A.  I 
do  not  know,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  -  asked  you  to  come  in?  A.  Mr.  - told  me  that 

a  gentleman  there  told  me  to  come  down  here. 

Q.  Do  you  think  of  anything  you  want  to  state  of  your  own 
accord  connected  with  your  services  here?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  idea  of  the  general  character  and  fitness  of  the 
nurses  that  were  in  here  while  you  were  in  here,  Mr.  Wilson?  A. 
I  would  rather  not  say  about  that. 

0.  We  would  like  to  have  the  benefit  of  your  judgment  because 
you  are  one  of  them?  A.  Some  of  them,  I  think,  that  were  here 
were  all  right,  some  that  I  did  not.  I  would  not  like  to  call  their 
names. 

Q.  Without  calling  their  names,  what  was  the  objection  to  those 
you  did  not  think  were  all  right?  Were  they  not  kind  enough  to 
the  patients?  A.  In  some  respects  they  were.  Some  I  have  known 
to  be  discharged  for  drinking  in  here. 

Q.  How  much  were  you  paid  ?  A.  How  much  paid  ? 

Q.  What  were  your  wages?  A.  $31.50. 

Q.  Was  that  the  usual  pay  of  keepers?  A.  I  started  in  at  $25.00, 
and  it  was  not  long  before  I  was  raised  a  dollar  and  a  half  and  that 
made  it  $26.50,  and  the  next  year  $29.00. 

Q.  Was  that  about  the  average  pay?  A.  And  the  third  year 
$31.50. 

Q.  Was  that  about  the  average  pay?  A.  Yes,  sir,  as  far  as  I 
know. 

Q.  Does  that  system  of  promotion  seem  to  obtain  in  the  institution 
amongst  you  all  ?  A.  How  do  you  mean  ? 

0.  If  there  is  a  vacancy,  does  a  man  drop  in  according  to  rank 
and  service?  A.  You  mean  when  they  first  come  in? 

O.  Yes.  For  instance  when  you  went  out,  was  there  another  man, 


ranking  man,  on  account  of  previous  service  to  take  your  place,  or 
would  they  bring  in  a  green  man?  A.  They  generally  had  to  get 
a  green  man. 

Q.  They  would  get  such  as  they  could  get?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  A  good  many  did  not  like  the  work  ?  A.  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  Did  you  like  it  pretty  well?  A.  I  can  not  say  that  I  liked  it.  I 
always  have  had  it  to  do. 

Mr. - ,  recalled,  testified  : 

The  Chairman — The  question  was  asked  Mr.  Wilson  how  he  hap¬ 
pened  to  testify.  I  wish  you  would  just  state  the  circumstances 
under  which  he  was  called?  A.  Well,  I  wanted  to  be  careful.  I 
did  not  want,  if  there  was  anything  that  they  denied  while  I  was 
on  the  ward,  I  wanted  him  here  so  that  I  could  call  him. 

Q.  You  asked  me  if  he  would  be  permitted  to  go  on  the  stand 
and  testify?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  I  told  you  he  would  be  permitted  to  go?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Commission  thereupon  went  into  executive  session  and  passed 
a  resolution  directing  that  Drs.  Saunders  and  Thompson  and  Mr. 
Mitchell  be  notified  that  they  would  be  examined  tomorrow. 

The  Commission  thereupon  adjourned. 


Columbia,  S.  C.,  May  6,  1909. 

Pursuant  to  adjournment,  the  Commission  met  this  day  at  the 
State  Hospital  for  the  Insane,  at  ten  o'clock  in  the  forenoon. 

Present — The  Chairman  and  the  members  of  the  Commission. 

Dr.  J.  L.  Thompson  was  thereupon  called,  and  being  duly  sworn, 
testified  as  follows : 

Mr.  Harrison — Your  name  is  J.  L.  Thompson?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  age?  A.  55. 

Q.  What  has  been  the  term  of  your  services  in  this  institution? 
A.  Something  over  twenty-eight  years. 

0.  I  would  like  for  you  to  tell  the  Committee,  if  you  please,  the 
general  organization  of  the  Hospital,  that  is,  beginning  with  the 
Superintendent,  assistant  physicians,  treasurer,  biologist,  supervis¬ 
ors,  trained  nurses,  attendants.  If  you  can,  just  make  a  comprehen¬ 
sive  statement  that  Will  cover  that  ground?  A.  It  will  be  a  little 
hard  to  do  that.  You  just  want  me  to  mention  the  names? 


Q.  The  names  and  duties  to  a  certain  extent,  as  a  part  of  his 
business?  A.  The  Superintendent  is  first,  Dr.  J.  W.  Babcock.  His 
duties  are  supposed  to  be  that  of  the  executive  officer  of  the  institu¬ 
tion. 

Q.  Under  him  are  directly — under  him  I  suppose  you  would  take 
the  assistant  physicians?  A.  Myself,  Dr.  J.  L.  Thompson,  Dr. 
Saunders  and  Dr.  Griffen. 

Q.  Three.  Dr.  Thompson,  your  duties  are  what?  A.  First 
assistant  physician,  in  charge  of  the  white  male  department. 

Q.  Dr.  Saunders?  A.  Second  assistant  in  charge  of  the  females, 
white  females. 

Q.  Dr.  Griffen  ?  A.  I  suppose  you  would  say  he  is  third  assistant 
in  charge  of  the  colored  males. 

Q.  Your  biologist,  who  is  the  biologist?  A.  Dr.  Griffen  was 
supposed  to  be  biologist.  He  was  in  charge  of  that  department. 

Q.  That,  in  other  words,  is  the  place  to  which  he  was  elected 
by  the  Board  of  Regents?  A.  Yes,  sir;  that,  in  addition  to  being  in 
charge  of  the  colored  male  department. 

Q.  Now,  who  are  the  supervisors?  A.  Mr.  J.  M.  Mitchell  is 
supervisor  of  the  white  male  department,  and  J.  W.  Austin  is 
supervisor  of  the  colored  male  department.  Miss  Fannie  Irwin  is 
in  charge  of  the  white  females,  and  Miss  Willie  Ouarels  is  in  charge 
of  the  colored  females. 

O.  What  trained  nurses  have  you,  graduate  nurses  ?  Miss  Irwin, 
is  she  a  trained  nurse?  A.  She  is  a  trained  nurse. 

Q.  Is  she  a  graduate?  A.  Yes,  sir;  she  graduated  at  this  institu¬ 
tion. 

Q.  Mr.  Mitchell,  is  he  a  trained  nurse?  A.  Yes,  sir;  he  went 
through  the  regular  school  here. 

Q.  Have  you,  beyond  him,  any  trained  nurses  in  the  white  male 
department?  A.  Not  to  any  extent. 

Q.  Have  you  here  any  trained  nurse  in  the  female  department,  I 
mean  graduate  trained  nurses,  what  is  taken  in  the  sense  of  hospital 
trained  nurses?  A.  Not  outside  of  this  institution. 

Q.  Is  Mr.  Austin  a  graduate  trained  nurse?  A.  Yes,  sir;  he  . 
passed  through  the  same  according  to  my  knowledge. 

0.  Miss  Quarles?  A.  The  same  as  Miss  Irwin. 

O.  Who  is  in  charge  of  your  mechanical  department?  A.  Mr. 
Sineath. 

Q.  What  assistants  has  he?  A.  He  has  none  except  just  regular 
laborers,  carpenters,  etc. 


152 


Q.  He  is  in  charge,  as  I  understand  it,  of  all  the  mechanical  end 
of  the  institution?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  me  who  is  in  charge  of  the  financial  end  of  the 
institution?  A.  Mr.  J.  W.  Bunch. 

Q.  What  is  his  title?  A..  Secretary  and  Treasurer  and  Steward. 

Q.  What  assistants  has  he?  A.  In  his  office? 

Q.  At  all  ?  A.  A  clerk.  He  has  a  clerk  in  his  office. 

Q.  Will  you  name  the  departments  he  is  in  charge  of  now?  A. 
He  is  in  charge  of  the  finances,  the  farm,  and  the  steward.  I  do  not 
know  whether  you  would  call  that  the  farm  or  put  that  under  a 
separate  heading. 

Q.  He  is  is  in  charge  of  the  finances  and  the  farm?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  he  is  steward?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  he  in  charge  of  the  store  room?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  that 
comes  under  the  head  of  steward,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  kitchens?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  that  is  included  under 
the  head  of  steward. 

Q.  You  stated  that  you  thought  so?  You  are  not  really  clear? 
A.  That  is  my  understanding. 

Q.  That  is  your  understanding?  A.  He  is  the  steward  as  I 
understand,  and  as  such  would  be  in  charge  of  that  department. 

Q.  Suppose  we  take  your  department.  I  think  we  have  a  clear 
idea  from  what  we  have  heard,  of  the  executive  part  of  the  institu¬ 
tion..  I  want  to  ask  you  along  the  line  of  the  department  you  have 
charge  of.  You  say  you  have  charge  of  the  white  male  wards?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  medical  assistants  have  you?  A.  None  except  the 
supervisor.  He  assists  me.  He  sends  the  medicines  on  the  ward, 
and  then  the  nurses  distribute  the  medicines. 

Q.  Is  not  the  supervisor  also  the  prescription  clerk  for  the  institu¬ 
tion?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  other  words,  he  fills  all  the  prescriptions  for  the  institution? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  he  a  graduate  pharmacist?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  then  have  under  the  supervisor  attendants,  I  believe, 
which  you  call  nurses?  A.  Yes,  sir;  we  call  them  nurses. 

0.  How  many  of  those  have  you?  A.  Fifteen  today,  sir. 

0.  How  many  patients  have  you  today?  A.  357. 

O.  I  would  like  to  take  up  the  matter  as  to  where  your  office  is 
located  as  to  its  conveniences,  etc.  Your  offices  are  where?  A.  In 
this  building,  the  adjoining  room. 


1 


i53 


Q.  Is  that  your  private  office  ?  A.  That  is  the  only  office  I  have. 
We  call  it  the  general  office,  but  that  is  the  office  I  occupy. 

Q.  That  is  the  general  office?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  is  in  that  office  besides  yourself  regularly,  doctor?  A. 
Dr.  Saunders,  Dr.  Griffen,  when  he  is  here,  and  the  stenographer. 

Q.  You  have,  then,  a  stenographer  employed  by  the  institution? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  the  stenographer  for  the  institution?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well?  A.  I  do  not  know  whether  she  is  strictly  the  stenogra¬ 
pher  for  the  institution.  That  is  what  I  understood.  She  works  in 
the  office.  She  has  never  done  any  work  except  stenographer  in  the 
office.  She  has  been  here  only  two  or  three  months,  sir. 

Q.  When  was  she  employed?  A.  As  well  as  I  remember  she  was 
employed  in  November.  It  might  have  been  the  latter  part  of 
October. 

Q.  In  your  office  work  and  your  other  work  it  takes  a  good  deal 
of  time?  A.  Yes,  sir;  there  is  always  a  plenty  to  do. 

Q.  Are  you  subject  to  interruptions?  A.  Yes,  sir,  very  much. 
Most  everybody  that  comes  into  the  building  sees  some  one  there, 
and  they  come  right  in  here. 

Q.  That  office  is  a  sort  of  receiving  room  for  the  institution?  A. 
To  some  extent.  They  are  just  as  apt  to  go  in  there  as  to  go  into 
the  parlor. 

Q.  Does  not  that  interrupt  your  business?  A.  It  would  naturally. 

Q.  Yourself  and  the  other  physicians?  A.  I  include  those  in  the 
office. 

Q.  In  that  office,  doctor,  what  apparatus  have  you  for  the  filing 
of  your  various  records  ?  A.  There  is  nothing  there  except  for  the 
filing  of  the  commitment  papers. 

Q.  Have  you  a  perfect  system  of  filing  according  to  the  modern 
filing  system?  A.  No,  sir.  We  have  nothing  except  for  the  regular 
commitment  papers. 

Q.  Are  they  put  on  shelves?  A.  Just  shelves  classified  by  the 
hundred.  Take  for  instance,  No.  i  runs  to  a  hundred  and  would 
be  in  the  first  package,  and  so  on  from  that. 

Q.  You  cannot,  then,  classify  them  according  to  the  initials?  A. 
No,  sir ;  it  goes  by  number. 

Q.  They  are  arranged  only  by  number?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  convenient  desks?  A.  Not  the  most  modern. 

Q.  I  mean,  are  they  convenient  ?  A.  Fairly  convenient. 

0.  I  want  to  take  a  specific  instance.  If  you  wish  to  dictate  a 


154 


letter  to  your  stenographer  or  to  do  any  writing  on  a  case  or  any 
sort  of  letter,  have  you  any  private  place  where  you  can  go  to  do  that 
work?  A.  No,  sir. 

0.  In  other  words,  if  you  were  dictating  that  letter  you  would 
be  subject  to  the  interruption  of  any  one  coming  in  and  attending 
to  other  business?  A.  Naturally  would. 

Q.  I  want  you  to  go  on  and  explain,  take  up  a  patient  that  is 
brought  here.  What  is  your  understanding  of  the  purpose  of  an 
institution  of  this  sort  ?  A.  How  do  you  mean  ? 

Q.  I  mean  the  purpose  as  regards  the  patients?  What  is  the 
object  of  this  institution?  This  institution  is  for  the  treatment  of 
patients,  is  it  not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Should  it  not  be  the  purpose  of  this  institution  to  cure  as 
nearly  as  possible?  A.  As  far  as  possible. 

Q.  And  every  means  possible  looking  towards  a  cure  of  curable 
cases.  I  Believe  there  are  a  large  number?  A.  A  few.  They 
claim  that  there  are  a  few,  a  small  percentage. 

Q.  Quite  a  large  percentage  of  cases  can  be  so  much  improved 
or  a  recovery  had  that  they  can  be  sent  back  to  their  homes,  or 
various  places,  after  a  more  or  less  great  length  of  time,  is  not  that 
true?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  the  meantime  the  State  would  be  relieved  of  their  care?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  in  a  great  many  instances  they  come  back,  but  still  the 
institution  would  be  relieved  for  a  time. 

0.  And  it  is  probable  that  they  can  be  some  use  in  the  world 
while  they  are  out?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  How  are  patients  admitted  to  this  institution?  A.  Admitted? 

Q.  Admitted.  A.  There  is  a  regular  form  according  to  the  State 
law. 

Q.  You  have  a  regular  form?  A.  That  the  Judge  of  Probate 
as  the  acting  officer  fills  out. 

Q.  And  the  various  counties  commit  them  on  the  approbation 
of  the  Judge  of  Probate  and  the  endorsement  of  two  physicians, 
I  believe?'  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  classes  of  patients  do  you  receive  from  a  mental  stand¬ 
point?  Do  you  receive  criminals — criminal  insane  and  inebriates? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Idiots?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Drug  patients?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Epileptics?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Cases  of  acute  mania?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


:55 


Q.  From  a  physical  standpoint,  you  receive  almost  every  known 
disease,  do  you  not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Paralysis,  itch,  measles,  anything?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  to  the  age  of  the  patients,  do  you  receive  children?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  About  what  is  the  age  that  you  receive  children  ?  A.  The 
youngest  that  I  can  recollect  was  five  years  old. 

Q.  Five  years  old?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  any  limit  as  to  the  age  at  which  you  receive  people, 
so  far  as  being  old  is  concerned?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  receive  them  no  matter  how  old?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  to  the  conditions,  disease,  do  you  receive  patients  in  the 
last  stage  of  disease  frequently  ?  A.  I  could  not  say  frequently.  We 
have  received  that  class  of  patients. 

Q.  It  has  been  done?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  A  patient  might  die  the  first  day  after  he  arrived  at  the  institu¬ 
tion?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  correct?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Your  receiving  ward?  Have  you  a  regular  ward  for  receiv¬ 
ing?  A.  The  understanding  is  if  the  patient  is  suitable  for  the 
hospital — outside  of  that  we  have  not. 

Q.  You  have  no  receiving  ward?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  just  put  them  anywhere?  A.  Yes,  sir;  whenever  we  have 
a  vacancy,  we  try  to  put  them  in  a  suitable  ward.  If  they  are  suita¬ 
ble  for  a  quiet  ward,  we  put  them  there. 

Q.  If  possible?  A.  If  possible. 

Q.  As  soon  as  possible  they  are  put  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  receiving  room  have  you  for  a  patient  suffering  from  a 
contagious  disease?  A.  We  have  not  any. 

Q.  Then  when  a  patient  is  received  he  is  received  directly  on  the 
ward?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  patient  as  you  have  said  may  be  suffering  from  any 
bodily  disease?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  about  the  method  of  examining  him,  as  to 
the  physical  and  mental  examination,  how  soon  after  he  is  received, 
doctor,  before  he  is  examined?  A.  Well,  the  first  visit  that  the 
physician  makes,  but  if  he  is  very  feeble  the  physician  goes  in  right 
away. 

Q.  In  that  case  they  make  a  special  visit?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  it  is  a  very  feeble  patient?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


Q.  If  not,  he  is  visited  on  the  next  round,  on  the  next  regular 
round?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  After  the  examination,  what  would  be  done  with  him?  A.  If 
a  feeble  patient? 

0.  Yes.  A.  He  would  be  instructed  to  be  put  to  bed  and  given 
a  stimulant,  whatever  stimulant  might  appear  to  be  necessary. 

Q.  That  would  be  your  instruction?  A.  Otherwise,  he  is  put  on 
the  ward.  He  is  given  the  privilege  of  the  ward  if  he  is  in  condi¬ 
tion  for  it,  if  not  he  is  put  into  a  room. 

Q.  How  soon  is  he  bathed  after  he  comes?  A.  The  instructions 
are  to  bathe  and  change  the  clothing  right  away. 

Q.  Immediately?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  On  arriving  on  the  ward?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  place  has  the  nurse  to  do  that  in?  A.  The  regular 
bath  tub  in  the  bath  room. 

O.  Just  take  them  to  the  bath  room  and  bathe  them  in  the  bath 
tub  the  patients  use  regularly?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  physical  examination  is  it  possible  for  you  to  make  in 
addition  to  the  other  duties  you  have  to  perform.  What  physical 
examination  is  it  possible  to  make  in  that  case?  A.  Well,  on  the 
ward  we  fill  out  what  is  called  a  physician's  card. 

Q.  Now,  do  you  strip  him,  doctor?  A.  As  a  general  thing  we 
take  off  the  shirt,  but  not  the  pants  and  drawers. 

Q.  Have  you  a  chart.  You  are  familiar,  of  course,  with  what  I 
am  speaking  of?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  A  chart  with  the  drawing  of  the  patient  on  that  chart,  and  do 
you  fill  out  that  chart  showing  the  various  bodily  defects  so  that 
whatever  the  disease  taken  might  be  you  would  be  able  to  observe 
its  effects  ?  A.  No,  sir.  We  have  nothing  of  that  kind. 

Q.  The  doctor’s  card  is  the  only  record  you  have  of  the  physical 
examination?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  that  physical  examination  in  the  nature  of  the  circumstances, 
is  it  complete  from  a  hospital  standpoint?  A.  Well,  I  cannot  say 
that  it  is  complete  according  to  the  modern  plan. 

Q.  It  is  not  as  complete  as  you  would  like  it  made?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  have  you  scales  for  weighing  them,  doctor,  conven¬ 
iently  located?  A.  Not  very  convenient,  but  we  have  scales  for 
weighing  them. 

Q.  You  have  scales?  A.  Yes,  sir  ;  we  stopped  that  sometime  past. 

Q.  That  has  not  been  done?  A.  For  sometime  past  in  my  depart¬ 
ment. 


*57 


Q.  In  making  these  physical  examinations  with  the  appliances 
and  the  facilities  at  your  command,  are  you  able  to  make  a  perfect — 
what  I  am  after,  are  you  able  to  make  a  test  to  determine  that 
patient’s  physical  condition  ?  A.  No,  not  in  a  complete  way. 

Q.  As  to  their  mental  examination,  I  believe  there  is  a  form  of 
mental  examination  that  is  used  by  alienists  in  such  cases,  is  that 
not  so?  A.  I  believe  it  is. 

Q.  Are  you  able  to  make  that?  A.  No,  sir  we  are  not  provided 
to  make  that. 

Q.  That  is  really  never  made?  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  tell  me  that  as  soon  as  he  is  received  on  the  ward  your 
instructions  to  the  nurses  are  to  bathe  him?  A.  Yes,  sir,  that  is  the 
instruction  to  bathe  and  change  the  patient’s  clothes  as  soon  as  he 
is  received. 

Q.  Do  they  carry  that  out-faithfully  ?  A.  No,  sir,  they  do  not. 

Q.  These  patients  that  are  brought  in,  are  they  ever  covered  with 
lice?  A.  They  are. 

Q.  Vermin?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  not  probable  that  coming  in  that  way  they  spread  those 
things  over  the  whole  ward?  A.  They  do  do  it. 

Q.  As  to  the  clinical  records  you  keep,  do  you  require  them  to 
keep  any  clinical  records  at  this  institution,  in  the  first  place?  A. 
I  cannot  say  we  keep  anything  like  a  clinical  record  here. 

Q.  It  is  not  possible  under  the  circumstances  ?  A.  It  does  not 
seem  to  me  that  it  is. 

Q.  Is  not  that  of  the  utmost  importance  in  treating  these  cases  ? 
A.  It  does  seem  that  it  is  very  necessary. 

Q.  I  would  like  to  ask  you  to  explain  to  the  Commission  just  what 
a  clinical  record  is.  I  have  an  idea  in  my  mind,  but  I  cannot  explain 
it  ?  A.  A  clinical  record  would  be  one  taken  from  the  bedside  of  the 
patient  from  day  to  day  or  as  often  as  necessary. 

O.  In  order  to  keep  up  with  the  patient’s  condition,  and  hold 
him  under  observation  from  the  first  month  that  he  is  here — that 
would  be  absolutely  necessary?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  facilities  for  keeping  the  history  of  a  case  after 
it  is  brought  here?  A.  We  have  what  is  called  a  history  book. 

Q.  In  that  book  what  have  you  about  the  condition  of  the  patient? 
A.  We  put  down  the  history  of  the  patients  as  they  come  in,  and  are 
supposed  to  add  to  it  from  time  to  time  any  changes  that  might  take 
place. 


158 

Q.  I  will  ask  that  a  page  of  that  book  be  placed  in  evidence,  so 
that  it  will  appear  in  evidence. 

Now,  doctor,  I  want  to  ask  you  about  the  treatment  for  insanity. 
I  want  you  to  give  me  your  ideas.  You  have  had  twenty-eight  years’ 
experience  in  this  hospital,  and  I  want  a  man  who  is  able  to  give  an 
opinion  on  it.  Is  there  any  drug  treatment  that  is  efficacious  in  a 
case  of  insanity  of  the  usual  sort,  doctor  ?  A.  It  is  not  considered  so. 

Q.  That  it  is  not  necessary  ?  A.  There  is  not  any  treatment. 

Q.  What  would  be  the  proper  treatment  do  you  think?  You  are 
able  to  to  give  an  expert  opinion  ?  What  is  the  proper  treatment  for 
insanity?  A.  Well,  as  I  see  it,  exercise  as  much  as  you  can  possibly 
give  them,  fresh  air  and  nutritious  diet.  It  takes  little  treatment. 

Q.  How  about  recreations  and  amusements?  Should  they  have 
that  ?  A.  That  is  included.  That  is  included  in  exercise,  but  if 
you  want  to  separate  them — 

Q.  I  just  wanted  to  see  if  I  could  get  it  clearly  in  my  mind.  I 
know  that  exercise  should  come,  work  of  some  sort  of  diversion 
in  that  way?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  about  hydrotherapy,  that  treatment,  do  you  consider  it 
valuable?  A.  In  a  great  many  cases  it  would  be  very  beneficial. 
In  other  cases  it  probably  would  not  be  of  benefit. 

Q.  In  a  good  many  cases  it  would  be  beneficial?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  to  the  electric  treatment.  Would  that  be  considered  very 
beneficial?  A.  In  cases,  but  I  don’t  think  they  put  as  much  stress 
on  that  as  on  hydrotherapy,  or  the  fresh  air  exercise.  I  think  most 
institutions  have  it  though. 

Q.  Now,  to  get  this  thing  in  shape  so  it  can  be  understood,  the 
hydrotherapic  treatment  consists  in  giving  baths  of  various  sorts 
both  hot  and  cold,  hot  packs  and  cold  packs,  does  it  not?  A.  The 
application  of  water  in  any  shape. 

Q.  To  summarize  that  thing,  the  treatment  for  insanity  would 
be  exercise,  fresh  air,  exercises  in  the  way  of  amusements  and 
employment  and  recreation?  A.  Yes,  sir.  You  have  not  mentioned 
diet. 

Q.  And  a  wholesome  diet?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Which  of  them  do  you  place  first?  A.  A  nutritious  diet. 

Q.  What  is  done  here  in  the  way  of  amusements,  providing 
amusements  and  recreation  for  the  patients,  I  mean  by  the  institu¬ 
tion  ?  A.  The  only  amusements  we  have  is  dances  regularly  through 
the  winter  months,  the  fall,  winter  and  spring  months  we  have 
dancing. 


:59 


Q.  Is  that  really  the  only  amusement  you  have?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Naturally  that  is  done  indoors?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  any  attempt  made  to  give  recreation  or  amusement 
on  the  wards?  A.  We  have  a  graphophone,  that  is  the  only  instru¬ 
ment  that  we  send  on  different  wards. 

Q.  You  have  one?  A.  One,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  sent  on  different  wards  at  different  times?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  am  speaking  from  the  institution’s  standpoint,  how  about 
baseball?  A.  Well,  we  have  had  the  baseball  team  in  operation  for 
a  year  and  a  half  or  two  years. 

Q.  Are  the  materials  for  that  furnished  by  the  institution*?  A. 
Only  partly.  I  might  say  last  year — last  year  the  institution  fur¬ 
nished  suits  for  two  teams. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  me  how  that  work  was  done  last  year,  the  cir¬ 
cumstances  surrounding  it?  A.  How  it  was  gotten  up? 

Q.  Yes,  sir.  A.  Through  Mr.  -  influence. 

Q.  I  understand  that.  Will  you  tell  me  what  part  you  and  Dr. 
Saunders  took  in  that?  A.  We  encouraged  it  all  we  could  by  getting 
up  such  things  as  the  patients  asked  us  for,  having  them  made 
clothes.  For  instance,  some  of  the  suits  they  had  would  not  fit,  and 
some  altering  was  done  by  the  female  patients  through  the  influence  « 
of  Dr.  Saunders. 

Q.  You  were  acting  Superintendent  at  that  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  I  believe  that  it  was  said  that  when  those  teams  were  played 
the  women  were  taken  out  to  watch  them?  A.  Once  or  twice  a 
week. 

Q.  You  and  Dr.  Saunders  took  great  interest  in  that  part  of  it? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Would  not  you  think  that  would  be  beneficial  to  your  patients? 

A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Both  sexes?  A.  Yes,  sir,  the  ladies  were  anxious  to  see  the 
play  and  the  men  were  anxious  to  play  for  them. 

Q.  When  was  it  discontinued,  doctoe?  A.  The  20th  of  October — 
the  20th  of  September. 

Q.  Is  that  when  you  went  on  your  vacation?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Therefore,  doctor,  beyond  the  dances,  would  you  be  safe  in 
saying  there  is  no  systematic  effort  to  give  nfcreation  or  diversion 
to  the  patients?  A.  None  except  walks  and  exercise  in  the  yard. 
That  is  exercise  more  than  diversion. 

Q.  You  just  turned  them  out  in  the  yard  and  let  them  walk 
around  ?  A.  That  would  come  under  the  head  of  exercise. 


i6o 


Q.  As  to  employment,  you  would  consider  that  necessary,  would 
you  not,  and  proper?  A.  It  is  considered  a  part  of  the  treatment. 

Q.  How  are  the  patients  employed?  A.  They  work  on  the  wards 
in  my  department.  Some  go  on  the  farm,  a  few  go  on  the  farm.  A 
few  in  what  we  call  the  little  repair  shop,  not  over  half  a  dozen,  ten 
at  the  outside. 

Q.  About  what  per  cent,  of  them  would  you  say  go  on  the  farm, 
out  of  the  357,  how  many?  A.  Not  more  than  a  very  small  per  cent. 
I  do  not  suppose  more  than  five  per  cent. — hardly  amount  to  five  per 
cent,  of  them. 

Q.  'In  other  words,  not  more  than  five  per  cent,  of  them,  you 
would  say?  A.  From  twelve  to  fifteen,  not  over  fifteen. 

Q.  About  ten  employed  in  the  small  repair  shop?  A.  Not  over 
ten,  as  an  average. 

Q.  An  approximation  is  what  I  am  after  ?  A.  That  is  an  average. 

Q.  On  the  wards  how  many  would  you  say  are  employed,  inside, 
you  understand?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  would  sav  about  ten  per  cent,  are 
employed  on  the  wards. 

Q.  About  thirty  then?  A.  Yes,  sir,  on  all  the  wards.  I  mean  the 
whole  building,  you  know. 

Q.  That  is  at  the  outside  about  fifty-five  out  of  the  357  that  are 
under  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Would  you  be  safe  in  saying  any  systematic  attempt  was  made 
to  give  employment  to  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  there  is  any  attempt  made  to  reach  individual  cases, 
is  there?  In  other  words,  to  take  a  man  and  find  out  what  kind  of 
work  he  is  likely  to  do  to  encourage  him  to  do  that  work — any 
systematic  attempt?  A.  No  regular  system. 

Q.  You  have  no  appliances  for  the  hydrotherapathic  treatment? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  It  is  not  used  at  all?  Never  has  been  in  the  true  sense?  A. 
Of  course,  we  use  packs,  etc.,  in  certain  cases,  but  not  in  the  true 
sense. 

Q.  That  use  of  packs  from  what  you  tell  me  is  in  spite  of  the 
conditions  rather  than  on  account  of  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  would  like  to  ask  you  when  you  give  a  pack  or  any¬ 
thing,  have  you  any#  place  to  put  the  patient  besides  the  bed  he 
sleeps  in?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  As  to  the  electric  treatment,  have  you  static  machines  here? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  X-Ray  machines?  A.  No,  sir. 


i6i 


Q.  In  other  words,  you  have  absolutely  no  electric  appliances  ? 
A.  None  whatever. 

Q.  Would  you  say  under  that  statement  this  institution,  so  far 
as  your  department  is  concerned,  is  a  custodian  or  a  place  for  giving 
treatment?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  a  mere  custodian  or  a  place  for  giving  treatment,  doctor  ? 
A.  Mere  custodian. 

Q.  In  other  words,  there  is  really  no  treatment  for  insanity  given 
here  systematically  ?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  I  would  like  for  you  to  tell  the  effect  on  patients  from  mixing 
these  various  classes  that  you  spoke  of,  criminal  insane,  inebriates, 
drug  fiends,  epileptics,  acute  mania,  etc.,  as  I  understand,  are  they 
mingled  or  mixed  up  together  on  these  wards?  A.  Yes,  sir;  all 
mingled  together. 

Q.  Is  the  effect  of  mixing  all  those  patients  together  bad?  A.  I 
know  it  would  be  with  some. 

Q.  In  other  words,  it  operates  against  some  of  the  patients  from 
a  mental  standpoint?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  far  as  physical  disease  is  concerned,  is  not  your  death  rate 
from  tuberculosis  very  high?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  is?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  not  virtually  every  ward  in  your  department  infected  with 
tuberculosis  ?  A.  Not  every  ward,  a  good  many  of  the  wards. 

Q.  A  good  many  are?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  have  people  to  come  here  and  contract  it  after  they 
get  here?  A.  Naturally  would  in  the  midst  of  it. 

Q.  You  have  other  contagious  diseases  in  these  wards,  have  you 
not?  A.  At  times. 

Q.  Have  you  any  means  of  segregating  those  patients,  any 
effective  means?  A.  No,  I  cannot  say  so  effectively. 

Q.  You  have  no  effective  means  of  segregating  contagious  dis¬ 
eases  of  any  sort?  A.  No,  sir.  If  we  had  a  small  epidemic  we 
could  manage  that,  but  in  a  large  epidemic  we  would  be  helpless. 

Q.  Helpless?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  to  the  condition  of  your  wards,  you  say  you  have  fifteen 
attendants?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  For  357  patients?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  those  wards  kept  clean?  A.  They  could  not  be  under 
such  circumstances. 

Q.  They  are  not  clean?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  They  could  not  be  under  those  circumstances?  A.  No,  sir. 


11— A. 


Q.  Are  they  kept  in  a  sanitary  condition?  A.  I  cannot  say  that, 
not  in  a  perfectly  sanitary  condition. 

0.  Are  the  beds  kept  clean?  A.  No,  sir,  not  as  they  should  be. 

Q.  I  am  speaking  from  a  hospital  standpoint.  Would  it  be  pos¬ 
sible  under  these  circumstances?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  washable  mattresses  on  these  beds?  You 
understand  what  I  am  speaking  of,  mattresses  that  can  be,  in  case 
they  are  soiled  by  a  patient,  carried  to  the  laundry  and  run  through 
the  mangle?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  rubber  sheets  that  you  can  fix  on  the  beds  so  that  the 
patients  cannot  slip  them  around?  A.  We  have  them  with  eyelets, 
but  they  cannot  be  secured  permanently. 

Q.  They  cannot?  A.  For  this  reason,  they  can  be  torn.  The 
patient  will  tear  them  loose. 

Q.  Just  follow  out  that  a  little  bit,  in  case  of  a  filthy  man,  a  man 
that  cannot  hold  his  urine  or  his  foeces,  it  is  very  probable  that  that 
bed  is  frequently  soiled?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  have  not  assistants,  or  there  is  no  force  on  that  ward 
either  to  sun  or  clean  that  bed?  A.  Not  sun,  but  we  give  the  nurses 
instructions  to  change  the  beds. 

Q.  Do  they  always  do  that?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  They  do  not?  A.  No,  sir.  I  do  not  mean  to  say  that  is  a 
general  thing,  but  in  many  instances  it  is  not  done. 

0.  In  other  words,  the  patient  sleeps  on  the  same  bed  after 
it  is  soiled?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  As  to  the  character  of  the  beds,  are  they  iron  or  wooden  beds  ? 
A.  Mixed. 

Q.  You  have  both  iron  and  wood?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Can  a  wooden  bed  be  made  sanitary?  A.  It  is  claimed  that  it 
cannot. 

Q.  I  am  speaking  from  a  hospital  standpoint?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I 
understand. 

Q.  They  cannot  be?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  As  to  the  windows,  are  they  kept  clean?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  The  walls,  are  they  kept  clean,  in  a  sanitary  condition?  A. 
No,  sir. 

0.  The  doors  and  floors  and  wood  work  generally?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  They  are  not  kept  clean  and  in  a  sanitary  condition?  A.  No, 
sir. 

Q.  Is  the  present  state  of  affairs  in  those  wards  conducive  to  a 


healthful  or  an  unhealthful  condition  in  your  opinion  as  a  physician? 
A.  As  it  stands  now  it  is  conducive  to  an  uhealthful  condition. 

Q.  Are  there  bedbugs  in  the  institution?  A.  Very  prominent. 

Q.  There  are  a  good  many  of  them,  are  there  not?  A.  We  have 
a  good  many  times.  At  seasons  we  have  not  any,  but  at  times 
a  good  many. 

Q.  Head  lice?  A.  Both. 

Q.  I  believe  that  last  summer,  if  I  am  wrong  put  me  right,  you 
had  a  detail  brought  here  to  clean  up  that  part  of  the  department, 
did  you  not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  was  done  on  your  own  authority?  A.  Dr.  Saunders  and 
myself  talked  it  over. 

Q.  You  were  then  acting  superintendent?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  did  the  detail  come  from?  A.  The  colored  female 
department  ? 

Q.  They  went  from  ward  to  ward?  A.  Yes,  sir,  taking  every 
ward  in  the  male  department. 

Q.  Colored?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  that  ever  done  before?  A.  Not  since  I  have  been  here. 

Q.  It  has  not  been  done  since  you  have  been  here?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  since  those  wards,  take  the  first  ward,  how  long 
since  it  has  been  whitewashed?  A.  Several  years.  I  cannot  say 
positively,  eight  or  ten  years  or  maybe  longer. 

Q.  Is  that  the  condition  pretty  generally  throughout  the  white 
male  department  ?  A.  Generally.  We  had  the  second  ward  fixed  up 
two  years  ago,  a  year  and  a  half. 

0.  That  is  known  as  the  best  ward?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Beyond  that  the  condition  that  you  speak  of  on  the  first  ward 
is  pretty  general  throughout  the  whole  department,  is  it?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Are  the  pots  of  the  patients  ever  left  sitting  around  in  the 
rooms  with  foeces  in  them  and  sticking  about  them  ?  A.  That  con¬ 
dition  does  exist. 

Q.  It  does  exist?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  any  provision  for  sunning  those  pots?  A.  None 
except  to  put  them  in  the  windows. 

Q.  Put  them  in  the  windows  of  the  room?  A.  They  can  put 
them  out  in  the  room,  no  regular  place. 

Q.  The  patients  or  the  nurses  ?  A.  The  nurses  and  the  patients, 
the  nurses  and  the  patients  together. 


164 


Q.  I  understand  that.  Do  they  do  it  ?  A.  They  do  not  take  them 
out  in  the  yard.  They  do  sun  them  in  the  windows  sometimes. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  now  about  the  kitchens,  where  is  the  cooking 
for  your  department  done?  A.  In  the  general  kitchen,  in  the 
center  building  here. 

Q.  What  kind  of  a  place  is  it,  doctor,  clean?  A.  No,  sir.  It  is 
not  kept  clean  by  a  good  deal. 

Q.  Is  its  condition  proper  from  a  sanitary  standpoint?  A.  No, 
sir,  I  could  not  say  that. 

Q.  What  is  the  nature  of  the  employees?  A.  You  mean  in  the 
kitchen  ? 

Q.  There  are  several  cooks  and  several  patients? 

Q.  Several  patients?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  those  employees  clean?  A.  No,  not  from  a  sanitary  stand¬ 
point,  not  from  a  hospital  standpoint. 

Q.  How  about  from  any  other  standpoint?  A.  Well,  I  suppose 
some  of  them  think  they  are  about  as  clean  as  they  are  at  other  places. 

Q.  I  was  asking  for  your  own  opinion?  A.  Did  you  say,  were 
they  clean  ? 

Q.  Were  they  unclean?  A.  Yes,  sir,  unclean. 

Q.  As  to  those  patients  that  work  in  there,  do  they  do  a  good 
part  of  the  work  in  there  ?  A.  I  can  not  say  that  they  do  the  biggest 
part.  They  work  in  there. 

Q.  Do  they  handle  the  food?  A.  They  do  sometimes. 

Q.  How  often  do  those  patients  bathe  ?  A.  The  patients  ? 

Q.  Yes,  sir.  A.  Once  a  week  is  the  regular  rule;  oftener,  if 
necessary. 

Q.  You  have  been  in  there  while  they  were  at  work?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  observed  the  conditions?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  What  condition  were  they  in  ?  A.  The  patients  that  work  in 
the  kitchen? 

Q.  Yes,  sir.  A.  Generally  very  untidy. 

Q.  Filthy?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  said,  I  believe,  that  they  did  handle  the  food  sometimes? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  is  not  certain  that  those  patients  are  bathed  once  a  week,  is 
it?  A.  I  am  not  in  touch  with  that  department  over  there.  They 
go  to  the  colored  male  wards  to  take  their  baths.  The  supposition 
is  that  they  do. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  in  that  building,  the  negro  men’s  building, 
what  do  you  call  it?  A.  The  Taylor  building. 


Q.  Have  you  ever  been  in  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  are  the  conditions  in  there?  A.  They  are  bad. 

Q.  Very  bad?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  the  place  foul  and  ill-smelling?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  the  patients  that  do  this  cooking  sleep  in  that  place?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Has  the  kitchen  a  door  opening  to  the  back  yard?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
There  is  a  door  opening  into  the  back  yard,  towards  the  store  room. 

Q.  Does  it  stand  open  ?  A.  At  times  in  the  summer  it  is  open. 

Q.  Is  there  not  a  certain  class  of  patients,  idiots,  lunatics,  and 
various  sorts  of  negroes  that  wander  around  in  the  back  yard  there  ? 
A.  A  few. 

0.  Did  you  ever  see  them  come  into  that  kitchen  and  walk  around 
in  there?  A.  I  cannot  say  that  I  have,  not  being  there  regularly,  I 
do  not  know  the  number  of  patients  that  work  there  all  the  time. 

Q.  Is  there  anything  to  prevent  them?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Anything  to  prevent  them  from  going  in  there?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  I  want  to  take  up  the  question  of  the  food  that  is  served  to 
your  patients,  is  it  wholesome?  A.  Well,  I  cannot  say  that  it  is 
altogether  wholesome. 

Q.  I  am  asking  both  for  the  present  and  past  conditions  as  to 
that?  A.  What  I  have  reference  to  as  to  its  being  wholesome  is 
the  preparation. 

Q.  The  preparation,  that  is  what  I  am  after.  Is  it  appetizing? 
A.  Not  to  a  person  of  sound  mind  in  many  instances. 

Q.  You  made  reference  awhile  ago  to  the  diet,  saying  that  a 
certain  kind  of  food  was  necessary  in  the  treatment  of  insanity?  A. 
It  must  be  nutritious. 

Q.  Is  this  food  nutritous?  A.  Some  of  it  is. 

Q.  Generally  speaking?  A.  Well,  I  cannot  say  altogether  that  it 
is  not  nutritious. 

Q.  You  cannot  say  that  it  is  and  cannot  say  that  it  is  not?  A.  For 
instance,  there  is  a  certain  class  of  food  that  is  nutritious,  a  certain 
class  of  it,  and  there  is  probably  some  that  is  not  nutritious,  if  it  is 
handled  improperly,  what  I  mean  handling  in  the  cooking. 

Q.  Is  there  any  examination  made  that  you  know  of  of  those 
men  in  that  kitchen,  physical  ?  A.  No,  sir,  unless  attention  is  called 
by  some  one,  no  examination  is  made. 

Q.  Is  it  not  very  possible  that  consumptives  work  in  that  kitchen  ? 
A.  It  is  probable,  yes,  sir ;  very  probable. 

Q.  In  going  in  and  out  of  the  Parker  building  where  you  said 


1 66 


* 

the  conditions  were  very  bad,  would  they  not  be  apt  to  carry  the 
germs  of  all  known  diseases  into  that  building?  A.  Very  probable 
that  they  would  if  they  existed  in  that  department 

Q.  Your  patients  always  have  enough  to  eat?  A.  They  very 
seldom  complain  to  me  of  not  having  enough  to  eat. 

O.  Is  the  complaint  made  to  you  ?  A.  They  may.  A  few  patients 
complain  now  and  again  that  they  do  not  get  enough  to  eat. 

Q.  I  would  rather  have  your  opinion?  A.  In  a  general  way,  I 
think  they  get  enough,  that  is,  the  strong,  healthy  patients. 

Q.  You  have  quite  a  good  many  ward  dining  rooms?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Your  fifth  ward  is  the  hospital  ward?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  food  is  carried  into  this  building,  I  believe,  and  is  sent 
up  in  a  dumbwaiter?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  at  the  foot  of  the  dumbwaiter  when  they 
were  sending  up  the  food  ?  A.  I  cannot  recollect  an  instance  when 
I  was  there. 

Q.  When  it  is  taken  out  at  the  top,  how  is  it  taken  out  and  served  ? 
A.  They  take  it  out  of  the  dining  room  and  place  it  in  the  pantry. 
That  is  done  in  the  dining  room  proper. 

Q.  What  is  the  condition  of  that  pantry,  clean  and  sanitary?  A. 
Not  any  more  than  most  other  places  about  the  male  department. 

Q.  Not  any  more  than  most  other  places?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  about  the  dining  room?  A.  A  similar  condition. 

Q.  How  many  patients  have  you  in  that  ward  as  a  usual  thing, 
doctor?  A.  Somewhere  in  the  neighborhood  of  thirty  or  thirty-five. 

Q.  Some  of  those  men  are  bedridden?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Don’t  they  sometimes  sleep  on  a  pallet  on  the  floor?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  bringing  the  food  to  them,  it  is  brought  in  and  placed 
where,  where  would  the  plate  be  placed?  A.  On  the  bed  or  on 
the  floor  beside. 

Q.  On  the  floor  beside  him  ?  A.  Provided  he  could  eat  the  food 
himself. 

Q.  That  is  done,  is  it  not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  Is  that  food  ever  placed  along  beside  the  pot?  A.  Very 
probably  it  is. 

Q.  Speaking  of  the  dishes  and  the  washing,  how  are  those  dishes 
washed  in  the  dining  room,  are  they  washed  by  patients?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

O.  Is  that  washing  properly  done?  A.  No,  sir. 

O.  It  is  not?  A.  No,  sir. 


167 


Q.  Do  the  plates  they  eat  out  of  ever  come  back  to  the  table  with 
the  remains  of  the  last  meal  sticking  to  them?  A.  I  have  never 
noticed  that.  I  have  occasionally  noticed  that  the  plates  were  not 
as  clean  as  they  should  be,  but  I  never  noticed  particles  sticking  to 
them. 

O.  Are  they  greasy  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Those  plates  are  tin,  aren’t  they?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  cups  are  tin  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  to  the  employees  in  that  kitchen,  were  they  responsible  to 
you  or  not  ?  A.  The  employees  in  the  kitchen  ? 

Q.  Yes,  sir.  A.  I  have  always  looked  at  it  as  being  under  the 
charge  of  the  steward?. 

Q.  Haven’t  you,  or  have  you  ever  reported  the  condition  of  those 
to  the  management  ?  A.  The  condition  of  the  force  in  the  kitchen  ? 

Q.  Yes,  sir.  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  complained  about  the  food  and  the 
condition  of  it,  the  preparation,  etc. 

Q.  You  have  never  made  a  report  of  that  to  the  Board  of 
Regents?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  never  made  a  report  to  the  Board  of  Regents?  A.  No, 
sir. 

Q.  I  want  to  take  up  the  subject  of  the  main  mess  hall.  You 
have  such  a  mess  hall  where  a  certain  class  of  patients  eat?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

0.  About  how  many  eat  there,  just  approximately?  A.  About 
275,  I  suppose,  about  250  to  275,  not  over  225  to  250. 

Q.  It  does  not  matter  particularly.  Is  that  kitchen  kept  clean, 
doctor?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Who  waits  on  it  ?  Who  attends  to  the  dishing  out  of  the  food 
and  placing  it  on  the  table,  etc.  ?  A.  Patients  and  nurses,  a  few 
nurses  and  the  balance  are  patients. 

Q.  Is  there  a  competent  man  in  charge  of  that  department?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  The  dishes  are  washed  there,  I  believe,  are  they  not,  doctor? 
A.  In  the  mess  hall,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  done  by  whom?  A.  Patients. 

Q.  Your  patients  go  down  there  and  the  food  is  served  on  plates 
on  the  table,  and  then  they  sit  down  to  it,  do  they  not.  Is  that  the 
idea?  A.  The  plates  are  served  before  the  patients  come  in. 

O.  The  plates  are  served?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  done  with  the  other  parts  of  the  food,  bread,  and 


1 68 


baked  sweet  potatoes,  are  they  placed  on  the  plates  or  on  the  table? 
A.  On  the  table  as  a  general  thing. 

Q.  Sometimes  the  beef  is  placed  on  the  table,  is  it  not?  A.  I 
have  never  seen  it  placed  on  the  table. 

Q.  What  do  they  eat  with?  A.  Spoons. 

Q.  What  is  the  condition  of  these  plates  and  cups — tin,  I  believe? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  they  greasy?  A.  As  a  general  thing,  they  are. 

Q.  Would  you  consider  that  as  appetizing,  doctor,  an  inviting 
place?  A.  Not  to  a  sane  man. 

Q.  Don’t  you  have  some  men  in  there,  quite  a  good  many  proba¬ 
bly,  that  can  realize  the  condition?  A.  Very  likely.  I  cannot  recol¬ 
lect  any  speaking  to  me  about  this,  very  likely  they  realize  that. 

0.  You  also  complained  about  conditions  in  the  mess  hall,  haven’t 
you,  or  have  you,  haven’t  you  ever  complained  about  the  conditions 
there?  A.  I  cannot  recollect  that  I  have. 

Q.  You  did  not  feel  inclined  to  press  that  question  because  you 
knew  nothing  about  it?  You  have  no  authority  over  that  depart¬ 
ment?  A.  Over  the  mess  hall? 

0.  Yes,  sir.  A.  It  is  somewhat  like  it  is  on  the  wards,  it  is  in 
my  department  because  my  patients  eat  there. 

0.  Have  you  any  authority  over  the  kitchen  force  whatever, 
doctor?  A.  None  except  reporting  to  the  higher  officers. 

Q.  You  simply  report?  You  have  no  authority  to  give  orders 
directly  in  there?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  had  a  complaint  made  to  you  by  patients  about  the  con¬ 
dition  of  eggs  down  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  young  man  testified  here  that  he  sent  a  piece  of  an  egg 
to  you.  What  was  the  truth  of  that  matter,  doctor?  A.  When  he 
showed  it  to  me,  he  said  he  did  not  know  what  was  the  matter,  but 
it  did  not  look  wholesome,  and  when  I  examined  it  there  were 
coffee  grounds  where  it  had  rested  on  the  utensil  it  had  been 
cooked  in. 

O.  That  would  show  what  method  of  cooking?  A.  Very  care¬ 
less. 

Q.  It  would  be  unclean,  would  it  not?  A.  I  don’t  know  that 
coffee  grounds  are  very  unclean.  The  method  is  unclean. 

Q.  You  have  visited  the  dairy,  haven’t  you?  A.  I  have,  but  not 
often  enough  to  express  myself,  because  I  have  not  been  there  for 
some  little  time. 

Q.  I  just  supposed  a  man  in  your  position  would  visit  every  part 


169 

of  the  institution  ?  A.  I  have  not  been  out  there  for  I  don’t  know 
how  long. 

Q.  Within  a  year?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  When  you  were  there,  doctor,  did  you  see  the  milking  going 
on?  A.  I  cannot  recollect  that  I  have  ever  been  there  when  they 
were  doing  the  milking,  because  the  milking  time  was  about  the 
time  I  was  on  my  ward  duties. 

Q.  You  have  been  there  at  other  times?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  condition  of  the  floor  of  the  dairy,  was  it  clean? 

A.  As  I  remember  it,  they  were  in  the  act  of  cleaning  up  then. 
The}'  were  cleaning  up  and  I  could  not  judge  very  well  at  a  time 
like  that. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  in  the  milk  storage  house?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  its  condition?  Is  it  kept  clean?  A.  Well,  I  cannot 

say  that  it  is  clean. 

Q.  Their  method  of  cooling  the  milk  is  to  pour  it  over  a  vessel 
in  which  there  is  ice,  that  is  their  way  of  cooling  it,  is  it?  A.  A 
kind  of  drum. 

Q.  Who  attends  to  that  work?  Who  does  it?  A.  I  think  there 
is  a  patient  that  does  it,  did  it  one  time.  I  have  not  been  there  and 
seen  it,  but  I  think  a  patient  does  it. 

Q.  Then,  what  is  done  with  the  milk  when  it  is  cooled  there, 
doctor?  A.  It  is  cooled  there  and  put  in  cans  and  then  put  back  in 
the  ice  in  the  refrigerator. 

Q.  Who  does  the  handling,  a  patient  or  an  employee?  A.  I  could 
not  say.  I  would  not  be  positive  about  that. 

Q.  Did  you  not  notice  the  condition  of  the  men’s  clothing  that 
were  handling  that  milk?  A.  I  have  from  time  to  time. 

Q.  Is  it  clean  or  unclean?  A.  Not  clean. 

0.  And  their  hands  and  bodies,  do  they  seem  to  be  clean  or 
unclean  ?  A.  Unclean,  that  is  what  you  would  call  them  from  a 
hospital  standpoint. 

Q.  That  is  what  we  are  speaking  of  now.  That  milk  is  brought 
from  there  to  the  kitchen,  is  it  not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  What  is  the  usual  method  of  carrying  that  milk?  A.  I  think 
they  carry  it  in  cans  by  the  hand. 

O.  Do  the  patients  carry  it  or  the  employees?  A.  Principally  by 
the  patients.  The  housekeeper  may  carry  it  sometimes,  but  princi¬ 
pally  by  the  patients. 

Q.  Were  those  cans  open  top  or  close  top  at  the  time  you  observed 
them  ?  A.  Open  top. 


170 


0.  Were  they  cans  really  or  buckets?  A.  My  impression  was  that 
they  were  cans. 

Q.  With  an  open  top  ?  A.  It  has  not  been  right  recently  though. 

O.  Those  patients  carrying  the  milk,  did  you  observe  whether 
they  were  clean  or  unclean  ?  A.  They  were  the  kitchen  crowd  I 
have  just  spoken  about. 

Q.  The  same  kitchen  crowd  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  your  opinion  as  a  physician,  is  it  not  necessary 
from  a  health  standpoint  that  every  care  should  be  taken  in  the 
handling  of  milk?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  Isn't  it  one  of  the  greatest  germ  producers  in  the  world?  A. 
Supposed  to  be. 

Q.  That  is  from  a  medical  standpoint?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  from  a  standpoint  of  health,  ought  not  most  extreme 
precautions  be  used  to  make  the  conditions  surrounding  the  hand¬ 
ling  of  it  sanitary?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  That  milk  is  taken  into  the  kitchen,  is  it  not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  is  sent  from  there  out  on  the  wards?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  method  of  distributing  it,  in  the  kitchen  for 
instance?  A.  Just  distribute  it  in  smaller  cans. 

0.  Pour  it  from  larger  into  smaller  cans?  Who  does  that  work, 
the  same  crowd?  A.  The  kitchen  crowd,  yes,  sir. 

O.  Have  you  ever  noticed  them  pouring  that  milk,  doctor,  have 
you  ever  paid  any  particular  attention  to  that?  A.  No.  I  have 
been  out  there  when  they  were  distributing  it,  but  I  can’t  say  I  noticed 
that  particularly. 

Q.  I  want  to  talk  to  you  on  the  subject  of  fire  protection.  What 
fire  protection  have  you  here?  A.  We  have  what  we  call  the  ward 
hose,  distributed  on  the  different  wards. 

Q.  You  have  city  protection,  have  you  not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  Those  hose  on  the  ward  are  kept  how,  please?  A.  They  are 
kept  in  closets  hanging  on  pegs  or  in  racks  there. 

Q.  Are  they  efficient?  A.  I  cannot  say  they  are.  They  have  not 
been  tried  to  my  knowledge  recently. 

Q.  How  long  since  they  were  tried  as  near  as  you  can  tell  us  ?  A. 
It  has  been  several  years. 

Q.  Have  you  any  chemical  extinguishers  of  any  sort?  A.  We  used 
to  keep  them,  and  they  are  sitting  around  now.  I  don’t  think  they 
are  any  good. 

O.  No  good?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  sort  of  grenade  or  bottle  affair  that  you  keep 


on  the  wards?  A.  We  used  to  keep  them,  but  they  are  extinct  now. 

Q.  How  about  the  chemical  extinguisher  about  this  big  (indicat¬ 
ing).  They  are  used  a  great  deal  around,  that  you  invert?  A.  That 
is  what  I  had  reference  to  when  I  said  they  were  not  in  use  now. 

Q.  How  many  has  the  hospital  ?  A.  They  used  to  have  them 
sitting  around  a  good  many  places,  especially  in  the  center  building. 
The  chemical  has  turned  out  useless.  It  sits  so  long  it  seems  to  have 
evaporated  utterly. 

Q.  Therefore,  the  only  protection  you  have  from  the  inside  is 
the  hose  on  the  wards?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  the  old  hose  were  taken  out  and  the  new  hose  put  in, 
what  was  the  condition  of  the  old  hose?  A.  They  were  rotten  in 
many  instances. 

Q.  They  would  have  been  absolutely  ineffective  in  the  case  of 
fire?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  instructions  have  you  from  the  management  in  case 
of  fire?  A.  I  haven’t  any. 

Q.  You  have  no  instructions?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  instructions  have  the  nurses?  A.  None. 

Q.  In  case  of  fire  really  no  one  knows  what  to  do  ?  A.  Except  to 
get  the  men  out.  We  have  a  night  watchman,  and  there  is  a  firebox 
in  front. 

Q.  He  can  turn  on  the  alarm  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  is  the  only  man?  A.  Yes,  sir,  and  notify  the  officers. 

Q.  I  want  to  suppose  a  case.  Suppose  fire  were  to  break  out  in 
this  wing  here,  would  the  nurses  know  about  how  to  go  about  getting 
the  patients  out  in  a  systematic  way?  A.  No,  sir. 

0.  In  case  of  a  fire  like  that,  wouldn’t  everything  burn?  A.  In 
what  way? 

Q.  In  that  case  wouldn’t  they  burn  like  rats  in  a  trap?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  I  believe  you  said  there  was  a  watchman,  doctor,  do  you  know 
whether  he  makes  his  rounds  or  not?  A.  We  have  nothing  to 
prove  that  he  does.  He  makes  his  report. 

Q.  You  only  have  his  word  for  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  Have  you  a  watchman's  clock?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  in  operation?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  since  it  has  been  in  operation  ?  A.  Six  or  seven 
years.  I  can’t  say  positively  since  the  building  was  rewired. 

Q.  There  is  no  fire  drill  of  the  employees  whatever?  A.  No,  sir. 


172 


Q.  Why  is  not  that  clock  used?  Can  you  tell  me?  A.  My  only 
knowledge  is  that  it  has  no  dials. 

Q.  No  dials?  A.  We  had  a  man  to  look  over  the  wiring  after 
the  electricians  got  through  wiring  the  building,  and  it  is  my 
recollection  that  he  reported  the  wiring  all  right. 

Q.  It  works  with  a  paper  dial?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  punched?  A.  Whenever  he  punches  his  station. 

Q.  And  you  have  none  of  those  paper  dials?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  We  were  speaking  about  exits  from  the  wards.  You  have 
said,  I  believe,  that  there  was  an  exit  from  each  end  of  the  ward, 
and  one  on  the  ward  at  some  place?  A.  We  have  an  exit  into  the 
center  building,  and  an  exit  down  stairs,  and  to  the  fifth  ward. 

Q.  In  other  words,  there  is  an  exit  at  either  end  of  the  ward? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  and  somewhere  along  the  side. 

Q.  Are  those  staircases  safe  for  men  to  come  down  hurriedly? 
A.  At  present  the  steps  are  badly  worn. 

Q.  That  is  bad  even  for  a  sane  man  ?  A.  Likely  to  slip,  something 
of  that  kind. 

Q.  Is  the  location  of  the  dumbwaiter  near  the  location  of  those 
staircases?  A.  Yes,  sir.  The  dumbwaiter  is  right  along  by  the  side 
of  the  staircases. 

Q.  In  case  of  fire  that  dumbwaiter  would  became  a  flue  for  the 
fire?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  Would  it  render  the  staircase  untenable?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  reports  are  made  to  you  in  your  department?  A.  They 
have  a  regular  morning  report. 

Q.  The  nurses  do?  A.  Yes,  sir,  regular  morning  report. 

0.  I  will  ask  that  one  be  put  in  evidence.  Do  they  make  that 
report  to  you  or  to  the  supervisor  ?  A.  The  supervisor. 

Q.  To  whom  does  the  supervisor  report?  A.  To  me. 

Q.  I  will  ask  that  one  of  these  be  put  in?  A.  He  has  no  report 
except  the  condensed  nurses  report. 

Q.  He  writes  it  in  a  book?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  makes  no  regular  report  to  you?  A.  No,  sir.  He  just 
condenses  it  from  the  reports  into  the  book. 

Q.  What  daily  report  do  you  make  to  the  Superintendent?  A. 
None. 

Q.  Do  you  ever  make  any  report  to  the  Board  of  Regents?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  nature  of  the  report  you  make  to  the  Superin- 


173 


tendent?  A.  Nothing  that  is  filed.  I  go  and  look  him  up  if  I 
have  anything. 

Q.  The  report  is  verbal?  A.  Verbal  report. 

Q.  Suppose  you  wanted  to  find  him  now,  where  would  you  go 
to  find  him  ?  A.  I  would  go  to  his  house. 

Q.  That  is  the  Superintendent’s  office?  A.  Yes,  sir,  at  his  house. 

Q.  Is  he  usually  in  his  office  or  out?  A.  Well,  if  you  go  there 
early  you  can  catch  him  in  his  office. 

Q.  The  Superintendent  has  no  means  of  knowing  the  conditions 
in  your  ward  except  by  your  report,  by  your  personal  or  verbal 
report,  or  a  personal  inspection?  A.  The  supervisor  sometimes 
reports  verbally. 

Q.  He  is  your  subordinate?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Some  years  ago  the  institution  had  a  plot  in  Elmwood  Ceme¬ 
tery,  didn’t  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  For  burial?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  bodies  being  buried  there  in  the 
same  grave?  A.  I  never  heard  of  their  being  buried  in  the  same 
grave,  in  the  space  between  they  would  put  new  ones. 

Q.  In  the  space  between  two?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  the  bones  of  the  dead  ever  thrown  up?  A.  It  was 
reported. 

Q.  You  did  not  see  it?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  But  it  was  reported  that  that  occurred?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  who  made  the  report?  A.  I  do  not.  I 
know  that  it  was  reported.  I  do  not  know  whether  it  was  done  by 
the  undertaker  or  by  one  of  the  employees  from  here  going  with 
the  undertaker  to  bury  the  patients. 

Q.  If  that  state  of  affairs  existed,  how  was  it  possible — you 
say  the  attempt  was  made  to  bury  the  dead  between  two  of  the 
graves?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  there  not  enough  room?  A.  No,  the  space  was  filled  up. 

Q.  The  plot  that  belonged  to  the  institution  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  they  went  back  and  dug  between  the  graves?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  that  is  my  recollection. 

0.  Of  your  own  knowledge,  you  do  not  know  that?  You  onlv 
know  that  it  was  reported?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  the  bones  were  thrown  out?  A.  I  did  not  see  it. 

Q.  You  just  know  that  it  was  reported?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  said  Dr.  Griffin  was  the  biologist  of  this  institution? 


174 


A.  Well,  I  don’t  know  that  he  is  a  biologist.  He  was  employed  to 
do  whatever  work  we  needed  of  a  bacteriologist. 

Q.  That  is  what  I  was  after.  I  just  got  the  word  wrong.  How 
much  time  does  Dr.  Griffin  give  this  institution  per  day,  doctor? 
A.  Well,  on  an  average  I  could  safely  say,  not  over  two  and  a  half 
or  three  hours. 

Q.  On  an  average?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  Is  it  usually  so  much?  A.  I  never  studied  anything  of  that 
kind.  I  just  wanted  to  be  on  the  safe  side. 

Q.  Does  he  do  this  bacteriological  work  for  you?  A.  Whenever 
I  ask  him. 

Q.  Do  you  often  ask  him?  A.  Not  very  often. 

Q.  Does  Dr.  Saunders  do  any  of  that  work  for  you?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  I  sometimes  ask  her. 

Q.  Have  you  a  complete  laboratory  connected  with  the  institution 
for  that  work?  A.  Not  a  complete  one. 

Q.  Have  you  an  efficient  laboratory?  A.  We  got  those  things 
according  to  Dr.  Griffin’s  request.  He  asked  for  only  those  things. 
I  am  not  a  bacteriologist,  and  I  do  not  know  really  what  they  need, 
but  what  he  asked  for  he  got. 

Q.  I  understand  that  most  of  the  work  for  the  institution  is  done 
by  Dr.  Saunders  of  that  nature.  Is  that  correct,  doctor?  A.  She 
does  all  the  work  for  herself,  and  Dr.  Griffin  does  a  little  for  me. 
I  don’t  think  he  does  anything  for  Dr.  Babcock. 

Q.  What  is  the  salary  that  Dr.  Griffin  gets?  A.  One  hundred 
dollars  a  month. 

Q.  $1200.00  a  year?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  visits  to  this  institution  does  he  make?  A.  One. 

Q.  He  comes  to  the  Parker  building,  does  he  not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  negro  male  department  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  operating  room?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  In  case  of  an  operation,  where  are  the  patients  taken?  A. 
We  scrub  up  a  room  on  the  ward.  We  do  not  encourage  it.  We 
try  to  have  them  taken  to  a  private  hospital. 

Q.  Can  you  make  that  room  on  the  ward  aseptic?  A.  No,  sir, 
not  like  it  should  be. 

Q.  In  other  words,  if  you  operate  on  a  patient  in  one  of  those 
rooms,  there  is  no  telling  what  might  ensue?  A.  That  is  one  of 
the  reasons  we  do  not  encourage  operations. 

Q.  Is  it  done  sometimes?  A.  Well,  we  have  to  operate  occa¬ 
sionally.  We  had  one  last  year,  brought  it  to  the  private  parlor. 


i75 


Q.  In  other  words,  then  you  have  absolutely  no  appliances  or 
anything  of  that  sort  for  operating  on  a  patient  in  case  of  emergency  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  ever  recall  a  report  to  you  about  the  cruelty  to  a 
patient?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Will  you  please  tell  the  Commission  the  circumstances  con¬ 
nected  with  it?  A.  That  patient  was  working  in  the  general  mess 
hall  with  a  nurse,  C.  W.  Brown.  There  was  something  said  by  the 
nurses  to  the  patient  that  irritated  the  patient,  and  the  patient  left 
the  mess  hall,  that  is,  according  to  my  investigation  of  the  case. 

Q.  That  is  what  I  wanted?  A.  He  left  the  mess  hall  and  went 
upstairs  to  the  ward  he  staid  on.  The  nurse,  after  dinner,  after 
going  through  with  the  meal,  went  on  to  his  own  ward,  which  was 
beyond  the  patient’s  ward.  When  he  got  to  his  own  ward  and 
started  into  the  sitting  room  the  patient  was  standing  where  he  did 
not  notice  him,  and  jumped  on  him  and  struck  him  and  threw  him 
down.  The  nurses  then  managed  to  get  him  down  and  bruised  him 
up  a  good  deal.  That  was  as  it  was  stated  to  me,  and  after  making 
the  investigation  that  I  could. 

Q.  You  saw  him  afterwards?  A.  Brown  came  down  to  the  mess 
hall  and  reported  the  matter  to  me. 

Q.  What  was  the  patient’s  condition  afterwards?  A.  When  I  got 
up  there,  and  I  went  as  soon  as  he  reported  it,  his  eyes  were  pretty 
smartly  gouged,  some  scratches,  not  deep,  scratched  about  the  face. 

Q.  Did  you  report  that  to  the  Superintendant  ?  A.  He  and  I 
talked  it  over. 

Q.  Was  the  nurse  discharged?  A.  No,  because  after  I  inves¬ 
tigated  the  facts,  and  learned  that  the  patient  had  struck  first  and 
got  the  advantage  of  him,  I  think  there  was  some  excuse,  and  I  did 
not  ask  doctor  to  discharge  him.  We  talked  the  matter  over  and  we 
thought  he  was  justified  somewhat  at  least. 

The  Chairman — Did  the  nurse  himself  make  the  report?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Mr.  Harrison — Do  you  know  a  similar  case  of - -? 

Was  a  report  make  to  you  of  that  case?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  was  a  patient?  A.  Yes,  sir.  T  think  that  was  the  patient’s 
name. 

Q.  Was  not  the  report  that  was  made  to  you  that  he  had  been 
assaulted?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  the  Committee  as  to  that  case  from  your  investi¬ 
gation,  if  you  made  one?  A.  It  was  reported  to  me  that  this  man 


i  ;6 


had  been  attacked  by  the  nurses,  illtreated  by  the  nurses.  That  was 
in  the  afternoon  as  well  as  I  remember,  and  I  went  in  and  examined 
the  patient,  and  saw  that  he  was  pretty  smartly  bruised  up,  and  I 
was  going  the  next  morning  on  the  early  train,  and  I  said  to  Mr. 
Mitchell,  “I  want  you  to  call  Dr.  Babcock's  attention  to  this  case 
when  he  comes  through,  because  I  will  not  see  him.  I  am  going 
oft"  on  the  early  train.’’ 

Q.  Your  connection  with  it  ended  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  did  you  investigate  that  matter  at  all  at 
that  time?  A.  I  investigated  and  found  that  the  nurse  had  attacked 
him  without  any  apparent — at  least  he  jumped  on  him  without  any 
apparent  cause,  treated  him  that  way.  There  might  have  been  a 
cause  at  the  first,  but  it  appeared  that  he  had  treated  him  that  way 
without  any  just  cause. 

Q.  In  other  words,  it  was  an  unprovoked  attack?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  condition  of  this  man  Belcher’s  face  ?  A.  It  was 
as  well  as  I  remember  a  slight  bruise.  I  am  not  sure  but  what  Mr. 
Mitchell  had  put  a  stitch  in  it,  but  I  am  not  sure  about  that. 

Q.  A  stitch  in  the  man’s  face?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  will  not  be  posi¬ 
tive  about  that.  Sometimes  when  I  am  busy  Mr.  Mitchell  takes 
charge  of  those  little  flesh  wounds.  That  is  the  reason  I  am  not 
positive  as  to  the  stitch  being  put  there. 

Q.  Who  was  that  nurse?  A.  Johnson. 

Q.  Was  he  discharged  at  that  time?  A.  Not  then,  no,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  how  long  he  remained  in  the  institution 
after  that?  A.  As  well  as  I  remember  it  was  several  months.  I 
could  not  say  positively  whether  it  was  four,  six,  or  eight  months, 
several  months. 

0.  How  much  hot  water  have  you  in  those  wards?  A.  Well,  sir, 
I  can’t  say  exactly  how  much  it  is,  but  it  is  short. 

Q.  It  is  short?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  not  an  order  in  the  winter  time  to  bathe  no  patient  in 
cold  water?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  that  case  Friday  is  the  bathing  day,  is  it  not?  A.  We  have 
various  days,  Tuesday,  Wednesday  and  Thursday.  We  cannot 
bathe  all  in  one  day  or  two  days. 

Q.  Is  the  hot  water  very  short  when  the  bathing  is  going  on  ?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  during  that  time  that  they  sometimes  bathe  more  than 
one  in  the  same  tub?  A.  I  have  never  seen  it.  It  is  reported. 


i/7 


Q.  What  would  be  the  effect  in  that  case?  A.  It  would  either  be 
to  bathe  several  in  the  same  water,  or  not  bathe  them  at  all. 

Q.  You  would  have  to  bathe  two  or  three  in  the  same  water  or 
not  bathe  them  at  all?  A.  Yes.  The  instruction  is  not  to  bathe  two 
patients  in  the  same  water. 

Q.  From  your  observation  do  they  observe  that  instruction,  doc¬ 
tor?  A.  I  have  never  noticed  that  especially. 

Q.  You  make  two  rounds  in  your  department  a  day?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  You  go  through  the  whole  business  twice  a  day?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
There  might  be  one,  or  two  where  there  are  any  sick. 

Q.  If  there  is  no  patient  on  a  ward  you  might  not  go?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  You  virtually  get  over  the  whole  thing  twice  a  day?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  You  have  under  your  charge  thirteen  wards,  have  you  not? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  includes  the  end  of  this  and  the  Taylor  building?  A. 
Three  in  the  Taylor  building  and  ten  in  this. 

Q.  What  other  inspection  is  made  of  your  wards?  A.  Mr. 
Mitchell  is  supposed  to  make  inspections. 

Q.  He  goes  with  you?  A.  He  is  supposed  to  go  through  at  other 
times  too. 

Q.  Does  the  Superintendent  ever  inspect  your  department,  doctor  ? 
A.  He  has  not  been  there  for  some  time  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  How  long,  couldn’t  you  tell  us?  A.  No,  sir,  I  could  not  'sav, 
some  time. 

Q.  A  month  ?  A.  As  far  as  I  could  say,  some  years,  that  is,  a  regu¬ 
lar  inspection. 

Q.  The  Board  of  Regents  has  an  executive  regent.  Has  that 
executive  regent  ever  made  an  inspection  of  your  department?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  he  has  gone  through  it. 

Q.  Which  executive  regent  was  that  that  went  through,  that  you 
remember  in  the  last  year  or  so?  A.  I  took  Drs.  Taylor  and  Ray 
through  last  year,  last  summer.  I  cannot  recollect  which  one  has 
gone  through  since  then. 

Q.  What  was  the  nature  of  that  inspection?  Do  they  just  walk 
down  the  corridors  or  go  into  the  rooms  and  look  at  the  beds?  A. 
My  recollection  is  that  they  did  not  examine  anything  specially. 

0.  Nothing  specially?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


12— A. 


i7» 


Q.  Just  walked  through  the  wards,  is  that  it?  A.  Yes,  sir,  that 
is  my  recollection. 

Q.  Did  they  stop  and  talk  with  the  patients?  A.  Whenever  a 
patient  came  up  and  wanted  to  talk  they  had  a  few  words  with  him. 

Q.  Did  they  inspect  the  water  closets  and  the  sinks?  A.  No,  sir, 
not  to  my  knowledge,  not  as  I  can  remember. 

Q.  That  was  Dr.  Ray  and  Dr.  Taylor?  A.  Yes,  sir,  two  different 
times. 

Q.  On  different  occasions?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  any  other  of  the  Board  of  Regents  inspecting 
your  wards  during  that  past  year?  A.  During  the  summer? 

Q.  During  the  past  year?  A.  Well,  I  think  some  of  the  others 
have  gone  in,  but  I  cannot  recollect  who  they  were.  I  recollect 
taking  Drs.  Taylor  and  Ray  in  and  calling  their  attention  to  the 
condition  of  the  flooring,  etc.  Dr.  Taylor  made  a  full  report  on  that 
at  the  next  meeting. 

Q.  I  just  wanted  to  get  at  that  point,  the  kind  of  inspections  that 
were  made. 

I  was  going  to  ask  you  if  there  were  any  further  cases  of  cruelty 
reported  to  you?  A.  Well,  those  things  occur  occasionally. 

Q.  I  understand  that.  Where  an  investigation  is  made,  and  the 
nurse  is  at  fault,  is  he  promptly  discharged?  A.  Not  in  every 
instance. 

Q.  He  is  not  always  promptly  discharged?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Is  he  sometimes  retained  for  a  great  or  less  length  of  time? 
A.  For  instance,  after  it  is  made,  we  are  so  cramped  for  nurses  we 
cannot  turn  them  off. 

Q.  You  had  a  man  named  Hinnant  working  here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Wasn’t  he  twice  discharged  from  the  institution?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  it  done  for?  A.  For  abusive  treatment  of  patients. 

Q.  On  both  occasions  for  abuse  of  patients?  A.  Rough  handling 
of  patients. 

Q.  In  others  words,  he  was  discharged  for  abuse  of  patients,  and 
later  was  discharged  again  for  abuse  of  patients?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman — As  to  the  cooking,  you  made  the  statement,  as  I 
recollect  it,  that  sane  and  healthy  patients  in  a  general  way  got 
enough  food?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  would  you  say  about  the  weak  and  sickly  patients.  As 
to  quantity  and  quality?  A.  What  I  meant  was  the  variety. 

Q.  How  about  the  preparation?  A.  The  preparation  is  not  as 
good  as  it  should  be. 


179 


Q.  Is  it  nutritious  for  the  sickly?  A.  I  had  reference  to  the 
others.  Our  principal  diet  for  the  sick  is  milk  and  eggs,  and  what 
I  had  reference  to  was  the  preparation  was  different,  soups,  teas  and 
things  of  that  kind  for  the  sick  in  addition  to  the  milk  and  the  eggs. 

Q.  Would  you  say  they  were  properly  prepared  for  the  sick, 
doctor?  A.  The  eggs? 

Q.  Yes,  sir,  the  diet  you  speak  of?  A.  No,  it  is  not  properly  pre¬ 
pared  for  the  sick.  Therefore,  we  have  to  rely  principally  on  milk 
for  our  sick  diet. 

Q.  Are  the  unsanitary  conditions  of  the  beds,  walls,  rooms,  halls 
and  clothes  generally  that  you  have  testified  about,  is  that  due  in 
a  considerable  measure  to  the  lack  of  discipline  ?  A.  It  is. 

Q.  And  an  atmosphere  of  disorganization?  A.  It  is. 

Q.  Does  that  seem  to  pervade  the  institution  ?  A.  I  do  not  know 
about  other  departments.  It  is  in  mine,  sir. 

Q.  We  have  heard  from  other  witnesses  that  you  are  careful, 
kind  and  tactful  as  an  official.  Do  you  think  that  you  are  responsible 
for  this  laxity  of  discipline?  A.  No,  sir,  I  can’t  say  that.  Partly 
I  am,  but  not  to  the  greatest  extent. 

Q.  Where  would  the  responsibility  lie  to  the  greatest  extent?  A. 
I  think  I  discussed  the  condition,  too  small  help  and  the  unloyalty 
of  some  of  the  nurses,  not  all,  but  some  of  them. 

Q.  Would  you  say  there  are  nurses  here  who  ought  not  to  be  here? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  complained  of  them?  A.  There  is  one  that  I  have. 

0.  When  did  you  complain?  How  long  ago?  A.  That  nurse 
has  been  here  some  time,  and  it  was  probably  several  months  ago 
that  I  complained  of  his  being  inefficient,  of  that  particular  nurse 
being  inefficient. 

Q.  If  you  were  to  have  your  way,  would  there  be  several  attend¬ 
ants  in  your  wards  replaced?  A.  Yes,  sir,  if  I  could  get  them,  if  I 
could  get  others  that  were  better. 

Q.  Is  it  a  part  of  your  duty  to  employ  nurses?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  make  complaint  to  the  Superintendent  and  it  is  his  duty 
to  employ?  A.  It  has  always  been  that  way.  That  has  always 
been  my  understanding. 

Q.  And  to  discharge?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  you  would  recommend  today  the  discharge  of  a  good 
many  on  your  wards?  A.  Well,  there  are  several  that  are  not 
suitable  for  tbe  place,  but  it  would  not  do  to  discharge  them  and 


i8o 


get  nobody  in  their  places.  That  has  been  the  condition  for  some 
time  past. 

Q.  You  would  recommend  the  discharge  and  leave  it  to  the 
authorities  to  secure  the  kind  of  help  you  think  you  ought  to  have? 
A.  Yes,  sir.  It  has  been  the  case  that  whenever  I  went  to  the 
Superintendent  about  these  things  he  would  say,  well,  as  soon  as 
we  can  get  better  nurses  we  will  let  them  go. 

Q.  How  long  have  these  objectionable  ones  been  here?  A.  That 
particular  one  has  been  here  some  years. 

Q.  What  is  your  objection  to  that  nurse?  A.  He  is  incapable. 

Q.  What  is  his  name?  A.  Mr.  Able. 

Q.  You  can  say  that  the  insane  generally  do  not  know  the  con¬ 
ditions  in  the  dining  room?  A.  No,  sir,  as  a  general  thing  they 
do  not. 

Q.  If  they  were  sane,  do  you  think  there  would  be  a  great  deal 
of  complaint  from  them  ?  A.  Very  probably  there  would  be. 

Q.  It  is  deserving  of  complaint?  A.  Yes,  sir,  there  is  cause  for  it. 

Q.  In  using  the  phrase  “unclean”  relative  to  the  condition  of  the 
patients,  their  clothing,  their  beds,  and  their  surroundings,  you 
mean  those  conditions  are  a  positive  menace  to  the  health  of  the 
institution?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  a  graphophone,  is  that  supplied  by  the  institu¬ 
tion?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Hardin — Is  it  an  easy  matter  to  get  suitable  nurses?  A. 
Well,  sir,  I  do  not  know.  I  have  always  left  that  to  the  Superin¬ 
tendent,  and  in  discussing  it  with  him,  when  I  would  want  them, 
he  would  say  that  he  was  trying  to  get  suitable  men,  and  as  fast  as 
he  could  get  them  in  he  would  do  so,  sir. 

0.  Is  all  the  space  occupied  in  your  wards,  all  the  rooms,  doctor  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  all  the  space  occupied  in  the  hospital  generally  here?  A.  I 
think  so. 

0.  You  spoke  of  not  having  a  receiving  room  when  patients  came 
in?  A.  I  think  so.  They  have  a  receiving  room  for  the  female 
patients,  I  think,  but  of  that  I  am  not  positive. 

0.  You  spoke  of  bugs  being  pretty  general?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  received  patients  with  lice?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  bugs  on  patients?  A.  Lice? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  Yes,  sir,  they  are  almost  constantly  in  there. 

Q.  What  year  did  you  come  here,  in  1881  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  How  does  the  condition  of  the  institution  now  compare  with 


i8i 


what  it  was  then,  the  growth,  you  have  been  here  quite  a  long  time, 
the  buildings  and  things  of  that  kind?  A.  I  do  not  just  exactly 
understand. 

Q.  Is  it  much  larger  now?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  the  buildings  in  a  better'  or  in  an  inferior  condition  to  what 
they  were  when  you  came  here  ?  A.  The  buildings  that  we  had  then 
were  in  very  good  condition,  the  inside  condition. 

Q.  Have  there  been  several  buildings  built  here  within  the  last 
ten  years?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


Afternoon,  May  6,  1909. 

Commission  called  to  order  this  afternoon. 

Present :  The  members  of  the  Commission. 

Dr..  Thompson  resumes  the  stand. 

Dr.  Babcock — I  don’t  suppose  anybody  can  appreciate  more  than 
I  can  the  stress  under  which  you  have  been  laboring  for  some  weeks 
past,  and  I  am  sorry  that  I  have  to  prolong  your  ordeal  by  asking 
you  any  questions. 

Q.  You  used  to  have  charge  of  both  the  white  men  and  the  negro 
men?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  When  were  you  relieved?  A.  In  1905. 

Q.  Who  relieved  you  of  the  negro  men?  Dr.  Griffin. 

Q.  And  since  then  you  have  had  a  stenographer  to  help  you 
about  your  duties  in  addition?  A.  Not  a  stenographer  since  1905. 

Q.  In  December  ?  A.  Some  time  along  about  the  middle  of  Octo¬ 
ber. 

Q.  Something  was  said  about  Mr.  Hinnant  having  been  discharged 
for  abuse  of  a  patient  and  subsequently  coming  back.  We  have 
occasionally  given  a  man  a  second  trial  upon  promise  that  he  would 
reform,  particularly  when  we  have  been  shorthanded  on  the  wards? 
A.  When  we  are  shorthanded  we  have  to  make  a  compromise, 

Q.  We  have  to  make  certain  compromises?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  That  is  the  case  with  a  man  you  have  now,  George  Brown  ?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  has  been  giving  fairly  satisfactory  service  since  he  came 
back  ?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  appreciate,  doctor,  that  we  have  quite  a  little 
trouble  about  those  matters. 

0.  When  we  are  short-handed  we  have  to  do  the  very  best  we  can, 
not  to  take  in  any  violent  person?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  think  in  the  list  of  witnesses  who  are  to  come  into  this  case 
Mr.  Hinnant’s  name  was  mentioned?  A.  I  understood  that. 


1 82 


Q.  He  was  also  a  brother-in-law  of  Kinard?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  the  past  four  or  five  months  I  think  Hinnant  has  made 
application,  or  more  than  one  application,  for  employment  and  been 
refused?  A.  I  remember  he  came  around  before  I  left  in  the  fall 
to  see  if  I  could  not  get  him  some:  work. 

Q.  And  he  was  told  it  was  utterly  impossible  for  him  to  have 
any  further  trouble?  A.  That  was  about  the  words  I  told  him.  I 
don't  remember  the  exact  words. 

Q.  And  he  told  you  he  wanted  you  to  recommend  him?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Last  summer  did  you  have  all  the  help  you  wanted?  A.  We 
got  in  several  new  attendants. 

Q.  Did  you  get  a  full  complement  of  what  you  needed?  A.  I 
think  there  were  one  or  two  or  three  short,  very  few  short  though. 

Q.  Were  they  any  more  satisfactory  than  the  average  run?  A. 
No,  sir,  they  drop  down.  Some  of  the  ones  that  I  employed  were 
just  as  bad  as  some  that  were  here  before  or  since.  They  turned 
out  just  as  bad.  They  came  with  high  recommendations  too. 

Q.  That  is  to  sav,  we  exercise  all  reasonable  care  in  selecting 
these  men?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  did?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  satisfied  with  my  general  attitude  when  you  recom¬ 
mended  the  discharge  of  a  nurse,  my  attitude  was  to  let  him  go 
without  hesitation?  A.  Yes,  sir.  That  is  right. 

Q.  If  you  recommended  his  discharge  there  was  no  use  of  that 
man  appealing  to  me?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  I  ever  put  anybody  back  that  you  discharged?  A.  Not 
that  I  can  remember. 

Q.  Since  this  investigation  began,  have  you  lost  any  nurses? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Aren’t  you  short  several  men  that  left  since  this  investigation 
began  ?  Aren’t  you  shorter  on  nurses  today  than  when  it  began  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  very  existence  of  this  investigation  has  driven  away  some 
of  your  nurses?  A.  Three  nurses  in  the  last  four  days. 

Q.  Able  whom  you  reported  to  me  for  incompetence,  the  only 
reason  you  have  understood  I  have  allowed  him  stay  was  because  he 
was  not  unkind  to  the  patients?  A.  I  don’t  remember  ever  having 
a  complaint  of  abuse  from  him. 

Q.  And  there  were  certain  other  things  about  Able  that  made 
him  useful?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


i83 


Q.  I  think  we  would  rather  it  would  not  go  out  of  this  committee, 
but  Able  is  a  man  who  when  he  knows  of  any  ill  treatment  of  a 
patient  or  abuse  of  him  by  another  nurse.  Able  will  report  him.  Is 
that  so?  A.  Yes,  sir,  or  other  irregularities. 

Q.  So  that,  although  he  was  not  as  bright  as  some  of  the  other 
nurses,  besides  our  being  short  of  nurses,  there  were  other  reasons 
for  which  he  should  be  retained?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  known  me  to  refuse  to  employ  what  you  would 
consider  to  be  a  good  nurse?  A.  Never. 

Q.  Do  you  think  I  am  reasonably  careful  about  employing  them? 
A.  I  think  so. 

Q.  We  do  not  employ  men  who  have  guarded  convicts,  nor  that 
class  of  men?  A.  Nor  railroad  men.  We  have  never  employed 
them.  That  is  a  class  we  have  fought  shy  of. 

Q.  Have  I  ever  been  indifferent  to  a  complaint  or  a  suggestion 
you  wanted  to  make  to  me  for  the  good  of  the  institution,  doctor? 
A.  I  cannot  recollect  that  you  have. 

Q.  I  was  always  glad  to  have  you  make  suggestions?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  to  the  kind  of  utensils  used  in  the  dining  rooms,  are  not 
those  the  same  that  were  in  use  when  I  came  here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is,  in  the  rooms  where  they  had  china  crockery,  they 
have  that  now?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  other  utensils  are  the  same?  A.  Yes,  sir,  in  the  pay 
rooms  china,  and  in  the  other  rooms  tin. 

Q.  Just  the  same?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  kitchen  has  a  capacity  of  cooking  for  something  like 
five  or  six  hundred  people.  How  many  are  we  cooking  in  that 
kitchen  for  now  ?  A.  I  suppose  in  a  general  way,  there  must  be  800, 
probably  850. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  some  of  the  defects  about  the  cooking  arise 
from  the  limited  capacity  of  that  kitchen  ?  A.  Certainly,  it  is 
probable,  very  probable. 

Q.  As  these  new  buildings  have  gone  up,  they  have  separate 
kitchens  except  the  Parker  building?  A.  And  the  Taylor  building. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  our  trying  to  economize,  don't  you  think  that 
economy  has  been  with  us  really  a  necessity?  A.  Well,  I  was  never 
present  in  the  discussion  as  to  how  much  money  you  needed. 

Q.  You  remember  in  a  previous  examination  the  charge  against 
the  institution  was  extravagance.  Is  that  not  so?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  the  way  Mr.  Bunch  and  I  came  here.  We  came  here 


184 


in  the  face  of  charges  of  extravagance  against  the  previous  adminis¬ 
tration,  is  that  not  so?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  don’t  you  think  that  that  has  had  its  influence  in  making 
us  unusually  economical?  A.  No  doubt. 

Q.  It  is  not  to  be  expected  that  we  can  maintain  the  institution  of  a 
per  capita  of  $109.00  up  to  the  standard  that  it  was  maintained  at 
a  per  capita  of  $150.00?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  this  is  a  problem  that  interests  all  good  people  who  wish 
to  devise  ways  and  means  of  relieving  the  institution  of  its  so-called 
encumbrances,  dotards,  etc.  Has  not  that  experiment  been  under¬ 
taken  previously?  Have  not  the  Regents  sought  to  weed  out  and 
send  to  the  poorhouse  that  class?  Was  not  that  done  just  before 
I  came  here?  A.  After  the  previous  administration  went  out. 

Q.  The  Regents  instructed  you  to  send  them  out?  A.  Yes,  sir, 
forty  or  fifty. 

Q.  How  many  staid  out?  A.  Comparatively  few. 

Q.  Ten  per  cent.  ?  A.  I  don’t  think  so.  I  could  not  say  that  it  was 
that  many  that  staid  out. 

Q.  Not  as  many  as  ten  per  cent.?  A.  I  don’t  think  so. 

Q.  Of  the  forty  or  fifty,  five  or  ten,  as  much  as  that,  doctor?  A. 
I  would  not  be  positive,  but  I  hardly  think  that  number  staid  out. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  was  in  our  present  condition  to  send  any 
patients  that  you  have  under  your  care  to  the  poorhouse,  any  white 
patients  to  the  poorhouse?  A.  I  cannot  recollect  any  that  I  would  be 
sure  could  be  kept  there. 

Q.  With  all  your  good  experience,  doctor,  in  the  charge  of  these 
helpless  people,  would  you  ever  take  the  responsibility  of  recom¬ 
mending  to  the  Legislature  of  South  Carolina  the  placing  of  any 
white  woman  in  any  poorhouse  or  poorhouses  that  you  know  of? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Would  you,  if  you  were  ordered  by  the  Board  of  Regents  to 
do  so,  would  you  want  the  responsibility  of  sending  any  white 
woman  now  in  this  institution  to  any  county  poorhouse  in  South 
Carolina?  A.  I  would  not  want  that  responsibility. 

Q.  If  you  were  ordered  bv  the  Board  of  Regents  to  send  them 
to  the  poorhouse,  would  you  do  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  would  ?  A.  I  would  try  to  do  so. 

Q.  Would  you  want  the  responsibility  to  rest  on  you  or  on  the 
Regents  ?  A.  On  the  Regents. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  recommend  a  patient  to  me  to  be  discharged 
who  was  not  discharged  ?  A.  I  cannot  recollect  the  circumstances. 


Q.  Have  we  any  form  of  restraint,  wrist  cuff,  belt  or  camisole, 
have  we  any  form  of  restraint  now  in  use  that  was  not  in  use  when 
I  came  here?  A.  No,  sir,  unless  you  would  call  restraining  sheet. 

Q.  Restraining  sheet  is  the  only  thing  I  can  recollect.  That  is 
for  violent  patients  to  keep  them  in  bed?  It  is  in  use  in  general 
hospitals  as  well  as  asylums?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  All  the  several  kinds  of  restraint,  the  books  lay  down  that 
there  are  various  kinds  of  physical  restraint,  chemical  restraint  and 
manual  restraint.  If  a  relative  of  yours  was  insane  which  would 
you  rather  take  to  restrain  them  by  this  sheet  or  the  camisole  or  by 
the  muff  or  by  giving  them  drugs?  A.  By  the  muff  or  other 
restraint. 

Q.  Physical  in  preference  to  other  restraints?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  would  consider  the  kind  of  violence  that  you  employ  to 
restrain  your  patients,  you  would  consider  that  a  kinder  method  of 
treatment  than  the  drug?  A.  Yes,  sir,  less  injurious. 

Q.  How  about  manual  restraint?  How  about  having  a  patient 
who  is  violent  held  by  four  attendants  in  bed?  Would  you  consider 
a  camisole  preferable  to  that  ?  A.  My  experience  would  make  me 
feel  that  way. 

Q.  So,  that  there  are  times  when  a  doctor  has  got  to  exercise  the 
best  of  his  judgment  and  discretion  and  use  physical  restraint,  this 
apparatus,  is  not  that  so?  A.  That  is  so. 

Q.  If  you  had  more  than  enough  nurses,  would  you  still  now 
and  then  use  these  physical  means  of  restraint,  instead  of  the 
manual  and  chemical  ?  A.  There  are  cases  where  I  don’t  see  how 
they  can  get  along  without  them. 

Q.  We  have  had  such  cases?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  A  non-restraint  asylum,  the  abandonment  of  these  physical 
means  of  restraint,  that  ideal  you  think  it  is  hard  to  attain?  A.  It 
would  be  I  think  with  us. 

Q.  The  effort  to  maintain  that  form  of  asylums  in  this  country — 
those  who  claim  that  they  never  use  physical  restraint,  but  they  use 
drug  restraints.  As  to  treatment,  have  you  ever  thought  of  any  line  of 
medical  ffeatment  on  the  line  of  drugs,  any  line  of  treatment  of  that 
sort,  which  you  think  your  patients  needed,  which  tire  institution 
did  not  provide  any  drugs?  A.  I  cannot  recollect  an  instance. 

Q.  That  is  to  say,  whatever  drugs  you  needed  you  ordered  with¬ 
out  any  restraint?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  has  that  always  been  done?  A.  No  restraint. 

Q.  Absolutely  none  ?  A.  No,  sir. 


Q.  About  the  nurses  quarters  ?  Did  the  nurses  have  any  different 
kind  of  quarters  when  I  came  here  than  what  they  have  now?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Just  the  same?  A.  Yes,  sir.  In  fact,  what  they  call  the 
nurses  wards  were  not  in  operation  when  you  came. 

Q.  Since  you  have  been  here  don’t  you  think  there  is  a  tendency 
for  them  to  use  the  Asylum  as  a  temporary  stepping-stone  for  some¬ 
thing  better?  They  come  here  and  stay  awhile,  and  they  can  get 
nearly  fifty  per  cent,  higher  rates  on  the  outside,  and  they  come  and 
stay  awhile  and  then  quit?  A.  That  is  my  belief. 

Q.  A  good  deal  was  said  about  feeding  tubes.  Is  it  possible  for 
a  small  asylum  to  get  along  without  using  feeding  tubes,  without 
feeding  its  patients  with  a  stomach  pump  for  any  length  of  time? 
A.  I  don’t  see  how  it  could  for  any  length  of  time. 

Q.  Could  we  get  along  here  without  a  stomach  tube?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Don't  you  think  reasonable  caution  is  exercised  in  the  use  of 
it  ?  A.  As  much  as  we  possibly  can  do. 

Q.  In  spite  of  all  caution,  sometimes  accidents  happen.  The  head 
of  the  tube  goes  the  wrong  way?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  Did  it  ever  happen  to  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  have  had  it  to  happen  to  me?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  know  of  a  doctor  that  served  long  that  it  did 
not  happen  to?  Did  you  ever  compare  notes  with  any  of  them, 
doctor?  A.  I  don’t  believe  I  have. 

Q.  Very  often  they  are  violent  and  resist,  and  it  is  very  difficult 
with  the  most  experienced  not  at  some  time  to  have  the  tube  go 
the  wrong  way,  and  the  tube  although  soft  may  do  some  damage? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  a  part  of  the  fortunes  of  war  in  all  asylums?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  I  was  away  Mr.  Sineath,  who  is  at  the  head  of  the 
mechanical  department,  did  pretty  good  service  here?  A.  Very — 
much  about  like  he  had  before  and  since. 

Q.  Was  any  suspicion  entertained  against  him?  Were  any  reports 
made  of  his  being  unduly  intimate  with  a  patient?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  investigate  it?  A.  I  did. 

Q.  Was  there  any  foundation  for  it?  A.  Not  that  I  could  ascer¬ 
tain. 

Q.  Did  the  Regents  investigate  it?  A.  They  left  it  with  me. 

Q.  Did  you  have  Dr.  Saunders  investigate  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


i87 

Q.  What  did  she  report  ?  A.  That  there  was  nothing  definite, 
just  a  rumor. 

Q.  Did  Miss  Irwin  investigate  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  were  all  satisfied  there  had  been  no  wrongdoing?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  as  far  as  we  were  able  to  find. 

Q.  When  I  came  I  also  looked  into  the  matter,  conferred  with 
you  about  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  Dr.  Saunders,  and  we  were  all  satisfied  that  it  was  just 
a  piece  of  spitework  on  the  part  of  the  party  working  with  Sineath 
who  had  been  discharged  ?  A.  That  is  the  way  I  looked  at  it. 

Q.  That  is,  the  Regents,  yourself.  Dr.  Saunders,  Miss  Irwin  and 
myself  all  considered  that  charge?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  case  of  any  sudden  death  in  which  we  have  any  reason  to 
suspect  that  the  death  is  not  from  natural  causes  is  there  any  hesita¬ 
tion  about  notifying  the  coroner?  A.  None. 

Q.  Do  we  get  the  coroner  here  as  expeditiously  as  possible?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  ask  his  assistance  in  determining  what  is  right  to  do? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  We  always  get  that  assistance?  A.  Always  do. 

Q.  Do  you  happen  to  remember  the  matter  of  difference  before 
the  Board  of  Regents  and  I  got  it  referred  to  the  Legislature?  A. 
Something  of  the  circumstances. 

Q.  It  came  up  and  was  referred  to  the  Legislature  ?  A.  I  remem¬ 
ber  it  coming  up  before  the  Board  of  Regents,  but  I  don’t  remem¬ 
ber  the  time. 

Q.  This  little  paper,  “In  consideration  of  the  release,”  etc. 

Read.  Paper  offered  in  evidence. 

Q.  Is  that  the  form  of  release  we  use?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  any  advantage  to  us?  A.  A  great  deal  of  advantage  in 
some  cases,  in  most  cases,  I  may  say. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  where  we  got  it?  A.  From  some  New 
York,  or  some  other  Northern  asylum. 

Q.  New.'York  asylum?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Dr.  Heyman  who  used  it  out  here  sent  it  to  us.  This  release 
is  granted  under  the  section  in  the  statute  referring  to  release  and 
furlough,  and  this  is  our  record  of  that  release  or  furlough?  A. 
As  I  understand  it. 

Q.  The  patient  going  out  on  furlough  or  on  trial  and  remain¬ 
ing  and  being  carried  on  the  books  for  ninety  days,  and  at  the 
end  of  ninety  days  is  discharged.  If  in  the  meantime  the  patient 


1 88 


has  relapsed  he  may  be  brought  back  on  the  original  papers.  This 
document  is  a  protection  for  the  patient,  for  the  county  and  for  us? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  the  way  you  look  at  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  patients  have  been  taken  out  and  have  committed 
suicide  or  homicide,  patients  taken  out  against  our  advice,  do  you 
recall  cases  where  this  has  been  our  record  and  our  protection  that 
we  had  done  all  we  could  to  guard  the  family  and  the  public  from 
the  actions  of  that  person  ?  A.  I  can  recollect  at  least  one  case,  may 
be  more.  I  can  only  recall  one  now. 

Q.  That  is  to  say,  since  we  have  have  used  that  document,  you 
have  found  it  very  useful?  A.  Very  useful  for  us. 

Q.  Last  summer  when  I  was  away  I  believe  you  gave  Mr.  - — - - 

a  job  at  the  back  gate  during  the  regular  gatekeeper’s  illness,  did 
you  not?  A.  He  staid  there  sometimes,  six  weeks  I  believe. 

Q.  Did  he  get  into  any  trouble?  A.  No  special  trouble.  He 
showed  nervousness,  and  got  restless  about  it. 

Q.  When  he  applied  to  be  given  a  remunerative  job,  you  would 
not  have  thought  it  advisable  to  have  given  him  such  a  place  of 
responsibility?  A.  No,  sir,  not  in  a  continuous  job. 

Q.  Do  you  think  the  institution  has  ever — the  management  of 
the  institution  has  ever  discriminated  in  regard  to  patients  being  pay 
or  beneficiary?  Does  the  beneficiary  usually  get  the  same  treatment 
as  the  pay  on  the  wards?  Is  there  any  difference  at  all?  A.  No, 
sir,  unless  it  is  in  the  classification  on  the  wards,  sir.  My  preference 
was  pay  patients  when  we  can  do  so. 

Q.  That  applies  to  some  of  the  white  men?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Does  it  apply  in  any  other  part  of  the  institution  that  you 
know  of?  A.  I  am  not  familiar  with  them  now. 

Q.  Not  as  far  as  you  know?  A.  No,  sir. 

0.  No  discrimination  in  favor  of  that  class  of  patients?  A.  No, 
sir. 

Q.  Do  you  observe  that  the  pay  patients  get  any  better  treatment 
than  the  others?  A.  Not  a  bit.  That  is  the  point  I  want  fully 
understood,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  every  effort  has  been  made  with  the  help  that 
you  have  to  destroy  the  vermin  here?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  think  so,  with 
the  help  that  I  have  had  to  do  it  with. 

O.  There  is  a  disease  which  has  been  recognized  in  the  last  year 
and  a  half,  do  you  think  the  observations  upon  it  have  been  of  any 
practical  value,  our  study  of  pellagra?  A.  Yes,  sir,  it  has. 


189 


Q.  Have  those  observations  been  worth  all  the  time  and  attention 
and  money  that  has  been  expended  on  them?  A.  I  think  so. 

Q.  Do  you  think  too  much  time  could  be  given  to  it  ?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  it  is  one  of  the  great  problems  we  have  before 
us  now  ?  A.  I  think  it  is.  It  requires  all  the  time  that  we  can 
give  to  it. 

Q.  About  fire  protection,  has  not  the  institution  in  the  last  four 
or  five  years  made  every  effort  with  the  aid  of  the  General  Assem¬ 
bly  to  give  the  lives  of  the  patients  here  and  the  property  of  the 
State  of  South  Carolina  every  protection  that  we  can?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  recollect  that  a  ten-inch  pipe  starts  at  Richland,  comes 
from  Pickens  and  makes  a  complete  circuit  around  to  Lumber?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  has  been  done  with  an  annual  appropriation  of  five 
hundred  dollars  from  the  Legislature?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  fire  department  of  Columbia  is  quite  prompt  when 
the  asylum  box  strikes?  A.  Very  prompt. 

Q.  Do  you  think  any  great,  and  serious  fire  could  get  under  way 
here  except  in  extremely  cold  weather,  when  this  institution  would 
not  be  well  protected  by  the  present  system  of  hydrants?  A.  I 
can’t  see  if  it  it  detected  in  time. 

Dr.  Taylor — How  many  years  has  Dr.  Babcock  been  connected 
with  this  institution?  A.  Since  1881 — 1891. 

O.  How  many  years  has  Dr.  Babcock  had  a  vacation  during  that 
time?  A.  I  cannot  recollect  his  having  a  vacation  of  any  length  of 
time  except  last  year  and  the  year  before. 

Q.  If  he  did  leave  the  institution  and  his  duties  here  he  was  only 
away  two  or  three  days  at  a  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  seventeen  years?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  For  twelve  months  in  the  year  he  has  been  here  on  the  ground 
attending  to  his  duties  for  seventeen  years?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  been  away  every  year?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  All  the  other  employees  have  regular  vacations?  A.  They 
can  if  they  wish. 

Q.  They  usually  wish?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  Dr.  Babcock  has  been  here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Didn’t  he  leave  here  last  year,  to  your  knowledge,  at  the 
earnest  instance  of  the  Board  of  Regents?  A.  I  know  he  was 
urged  to  take  a  trip. 

O.  Didn’t  he  hesitate  about  going  and  at  first  refused  to  go?  A. 


190 


He  considered  the  matter  and  did  not  decide  to  go  until  a  few  days 
before  he  went. 

Q.  Don’t  you  know  he  was  interviewed  and  his  going  insisted 
upon  by  the  individual  members  of  the  Board  of  Regents?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Does  not  Dr.  Babcock  assume  all  the  duties  voluntarily  he 
is  called  upon  to  do  as  Superintendent  of  the  asylum,  doctor?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Would  you  consider  the  designing  of  buildings,  etc.,  as  duties 
that  he  assumes  voluntarily?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  not  that  ordinarily  the  work  of  an  architect  who  is  paid  a 
pretty  good  salary  for  it?  A.  It  is. 

Q.  His  assumption  of  that  duty — does  not  that  save  the  State 
of  South  Carolina  a  good  deal  of  money?  A.  I  should  think  so.  I 
have  not  seen  the  figures. 

Q.  Has  not  the  State  of  South  Carolina  and  the  institution 
profited  no  small  amount  by  the  fact  that  he  has  applied  his  knowl¬ 
edge,  etc.,  to  the  designing  of  the  buildings  he  has,  especially  from 
the  knowledge  that  he  has  gained  there  as  Superintendent?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  institution  and  the  State  of  South  Carolina  have  profited 
by  devoting  their  time  to  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  feel  that  this  considerable  time  that  he  has  devoted 
to  other  things  than  what  were  strictly  to  be  done  as  his  duties,  do 
you  feel  that  it  has  worked  any  injustice  or  injury  to  any  patient  in 
the  institution?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  feel  that  he  has  neglected  any  of  his  duties  to  do  it? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  what  way?  A.  It  calls  him  away  to  those  things  and  he 
cannot  get  on  the  wards,  overloading  is  where  it  comes  in. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  works  an  injustice  to  the  patients?  A.  It 
does  on  my  side. 

Q.  If  he  made  more  visits  he  would  be  better  acquainted?  A. 
He  would  keep  in  touch  and  see  things  as  they  are. 

0.  Don’t  you  pretty  well  keep  him  in  touch  with  things  on  your 
wards?  A.  In  a  general  way. 

0.  If  you  want  him  you  can  get  him  at  once?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  he  is  pretty  well  in  touch  ?  A.  In  a  general  way.  There 
are  a  great  minutiae  he  would  know.  If  he  would  go  through  he 
would  see  for  himself,  he  would  get  a  better  comprehension,  and  the 
impressions  would  be  better. 


Q.  Hasn’t  Dr.  Babcock  been  very  insistent  in  his  efforts  to  save 
the  institution  money  and  the  State  money  by  being  posted  and 
keeping  himself  posted  as  to  army  sales  and  all  sorts  of  sales  in 
large  supplies?  A.  He  has. 

Q.  Didn’t  he  go  out  to  St.  Louis  two  or  three  years  ago  and  there 
buy  a  great  many-  goods  sold  by  the  United  States  army,  and  in 
another  auction  did  he  not  go  to  Savannah,  or  at  least  have  some 
representative  present  in  Savannah,  and  bought  a  great  many  goods 
from  the  United  States  army  sales  that  saved  the  institution  hun¬ 
dreds  of  dollars?  A.  He  did. 

Q.  Hasn’t  it  always  been  his  policy  to  act  in  every  way  possible 
to  get  supplies  for  the  institution  as  cheap  as  possible,  in  that  way 
especially?  A.  As  far  as  I  am  able  to  judge  he  has. 

Mr.  Harrison — There  is  a  point  in  connection  with  the  nurses 
that  Dr.  Babcock  did  not  bring  out,  and  I  want  to  bring  it  out  by 
asking  Dr.  Thompson  a  question.  In  admitting  these  nurses,  doctor, 
you  have  rather  rigid  requirements,  haven’t  you?  I  mean  in  regard 
to  the  references  you  require  as  to  the  nurses,  a  ministerial  reference 
as  to  good  character,  do  you  not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  to  the  superintendent  going  off  from  the  institution,  and 
visiting  other  places.  Don’t  you  think  it  would  be  highly  beneficial 
to  the  officers  of  an  institution  for  its  superintendent  and  its  other 
officers  to  go  and  visit  other  asylums?  A.  I  think  so. 

Q.  And  keep  in  touch  with  their  methods  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  To  come  in  contact  with  the  most  improved  modern  methods 
of  the  day  by  visiting  other  countries  and  other  institutions  or 
asylums  would  be  for  the  benefit  of  the  institution  and  for  the  good 
of  the  institution.  Don’t  you  think  so,  doctor?  A.  I  think  so. 

The  Chairman — Have  you  made  any  such  visits  to  other  institu¬ 
tions  ?  A.  I  have  some  years  ago. 

Q.  How  long  ago?  A.  I  visited  the  government  asylum  last  fall 
when  I  was  in  Washington  to  the  tuberculosis  conference.  In  1903 
I  visited  some  of  the  Northern  institutions.  I  don't  think  I  have 
been  to  any  since.  In  fact,  I  know  I  have  not.  I  have  not  since  1903. 

Mr.  Carey — You  say  three  or  four  nurses  left  since  we  began  this 
investigation?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Why  did  they  leave?  What  reason  did  they  give  for  leaving? 
A.  I  suppose  they  became  nervous  pending  what  would  take  place. 
One  said  he  had  a  position. 

0.  He  was  not  discharged?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Left  of  his  own  accord?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


192 


Q.  As  to  the  condition  of  your  wards,  are  they  crowded?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  very  crowded. 

Q.  Have  you  got  room  for  any  more?  A.  There  may  be  room 
for  one  more.  We  are  very  crowded. 

Q.  In  a  very  crowded  condition?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  patients  have  you  got  under  your  charge,  how 
many  violent  patients?  A.  I  have  got  at  least  fifteen  or  twenty 
violent  patients  in  my  department. 

Q.  And  those  are  the  ones  that  you  usually  restrain?  A.  Some 
I  have  and  some  I  have  not,  just  secluded,  a  certain  amount  of 
restraint. 

Q.  Your  policy  is  to  use  as  little  restraint  as  possible?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  And  that  is  the  mildest?  A.  Seclusion,  yes,  sir.  That  is  the 
mildest  kind  of  all  the  restraints. 

Q.  When  you  treat  them  that  way  does  it  have  a  good  effect  on 
the  patients  after  that?  A.  Yes,  sir,  in  some  cases  it  does.  Some 
never  seem  to  take  any  notice  of  the  previous  treatment.  Some¬ 
times  it  does  have  some  controlling  effect  upon  them. 

0.  Two  or  three  of  the  witnesses  spoke  of - being  one  who 

ought  to  have  been  let  out  of  here.  What  do  you  think  of  that  case  ? 

A.  -  is  demented.  He  is  quiet.  But  we  have  had  him  here 

before,  and  sent  him  home  and  he  spent  several  years.  He  drinks 
and  then  he  gets  into  trouble,  and  they  have  to  send  him  back. 

Q.  Is  he  here  now?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  he  ought  to  be  here?  A.  That  is  one  of  the 
cases  that  we  might  give  a  trial,  but  he  will  come  back  sooner  or 
later. 

Q.  How  many  times  has  he  left  and  come  back?  A.  Only  once 
since  I  have  been  here,  but  his  case — that  has  been  some  time  back 
before  I  came  here — he  has  been  an  inmate  here  several  times  in 
his  life. 

Q.  You  would  not  take  him  to  be  a  man  entitled  to  an  uncondi¬ 
tional  discharge?  A.  No,  sir. 

0.  When  you  grant  a  discharge — I  understand  this  paper  is  used 
when  they  are  out  on  trial?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  they  do  not  return  within  ninety  days,  is  there  anything 
further  done  as  to  that  case  by  the  authorities  of  the  institution? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  They  consider  him  out?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


193 


Q.  They  get  no  other  paper?  A.  No,  sir.  Nothing  more  from 
the  institution. 

Q.  So  that  after  they  are  out  ninety  days  and  do  not  return  you 
consider  them  discharged?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  And  if  they  come  back  after  that,  do  they  have  to  start  anew? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  And  go  through  all  of  the  forms  required  as  to  the  first  admis¬ 
sion?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  ever  grant  in  the  first  instance  an  unconditional 
discharge?  A.  Well,  it  is  not  customary  now.  There  are  some 
cases.  Occasionally  there  is  a  case  that  we  let  out  without  that 
paper,  while  we  are  pretty  sure  that  patient  will  return  in  three 
months. 

Q.  What  part  do  the  Board  of  Regents  take  as  to  a  discharge  of 
a  patient?  A.  As  a  general  thing,  no  part,  sir. 

Q.  Your  applications  for  discharges  are  brought  before  whom, 
doctor?  A.  If  it  is  a  case  where  the  Superintendent  does  not  like 
to  take  the  responsibility,  he  will  mention  it  to  the  Board  of  Regents. 

Q.  But  the  custom  is  for  the  superintendent  to  grant  discharges? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  that  usually  on  the  recommendation  of  the  physician  in 
charge  of  the  ward  from  which  the  applicant  comes?  A.  Sometimes 
it  is,  and  sometimes  the  family  and  friends  insist  on  removing  him. 

0.  You  know  Mr. - ,  of  Greenville,  do  you  not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  How  long  has  he  been  in  here?  A.  He  came  in  the  fall.  It 
was  rather  winter,  some  time  in  November  or  December. 

Q.  Was  any  mistreatment  of  him  ever  reported  to  you  ?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

O.  Who  reported  it?  A.  Some  of  the  patients. 

O.  Wasn’t  it  Lewis?.  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  there  any  misconduct  on  the  part  of  Lewis  towards  Mr. 
- ?  A.  Some  remarks. 

Q.  What  kind  of  remarks?  A.  He  asked  to  be  allowed  to  go  to 
the  closet  to  use  his  vessel  during  the  night,  and  Mr.  Lewis  just 
said  if  you  have  anything  to  do  of  that  kind  use  your  hand,  or 
something  of  the  kind. 

0.  One  of  the  patients  reported  to  you  that  Lewis  told  him  that? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  investigate  that  matter?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  What  did  you  find  as  to  the  truth?  A.  Mr.  Lewis  denied  it. 


13— A. 


194 


He  did  not  speak  in  the  pleasantest  terms,  but  he  denied  making 
that  statement. 

Q.  What  was  your  conclusion  as  to  there  being  any  foundation  for 
Lewis’s  conduct?  A.  I  thought  his  conduct  was  not  altogether 
just  to  the  patient. 

Q.  What  patient  reported  it?  A.  I  think  Mr. - . 

Q.  Did  Mr.  -  make  any  report  himself  to  you?  A.  Mr. 

-  spoke  as  if  the  nurse  had  been  unkind  to  him.  He  did  not 

say  in  what  way. 

Q.  As  a  result  of  your  investigation  you  decided  in  favor  of  the 
nurse?  A.  To  this  extent,  that  I  did  not  discharge  him,  but  moved 
him  to  another  ward. 

Q.  Is  he  still  in  the  institution?  A.  He  is  one  of  the  ones  that 
left  the  other  day,  in  the  last  three  days. 

Q.  Did  he  claim  to  have  a  better  job?  A.  No.  He  was  one  of 
the  ones  that  did  not  say  what  he  was  going  to  do. 

Q.  Was  he  one  of  the  ones  that  you  thought  felt  nervous  about 
this  investigation?  A.  He  left  since  it  began.  I  suppose  that  was 
one  of  the  reasons,  or  the  reason. 

Q.  Was  any  complaint  made  to  you  about  the  bathing  of  Mr. 

- ?  A.  No,  sir,  not  that  I  can  recollect.  Since  Mr. - has 

been  here  he  has  resisted  everything  that  they  attempted  to  do  for 
him  such  as  shaving,  brushing  his  hair,  changing  his  clothes,  he  has 
resisted,  and  we  have  had  to  get  several  nurses  to  come,  and  when 
he  would  see  several  nurses  coming  he  would  submit.  He  has  been 
that  way  in  everything.  Bathing  might  have  been  mentioned.  I 
cannot  recollect  it,  however. 

Q.  You  do  not  recollect  any  report  about  his  being  bathed  in 
water  so  hot  that  it  burned  him?  A.  I  know  I  never  treated  him 
for  any  sores  or  anything  of  that  kind.  I  do  not  know  of  any  report 
about  a  hot  bath  being  given  to  him. 

Q.  Is  he  supposed  to  be  violent?  A.  Very  downhearted,  very 
despondent,  thinks  everything  that  is  done  for  him  is  meant  to  injure 
him. 

0.  He  imagines  that?  A.  Yes,  sir,  and  for  that  reason  we  have  to 
force  him  to  everything  that  is  done  out  of  the  line  of  general  treat¬ 
ment  of  him. 

Q.  This  paper  that  you  handed  us  about  the  rules.  Are  you 
particular  about  the  enforcement  of  those  rules?  A.  As  well  as  I 
can. 

Q.  Do  you  look  after  that  closely?  A.  No,  as  I  told  you  this 


195 


morning,  there  are  some  of  them  in  the  nurses  hands.  I  cannot 
say  positively  whether  they  have  them  or  not.  We  expect  them  to 
take  charge  of  them  and  become  familiar  with  them,  but  I  cannot 
say  positively  that  they  have. 

Q.  Is  there  any  set  of  rules  promulgated  by  the  Board  of  Regents  ? 
A.  Not  recently,  to  my  knowledge.  There  were  some  old  rules  here. 
I  don’t  remember  whether  they  have  been  changed  or  not.  It  is  just 
possible  that  I  may  be  able  to  find  a  pamphlet  containing  the  old 
rules. 

Q.  At  your  leisure  I  wish  you  would  look  over  this  and  see  if 
they  constitute  the  rules  that  have  been  enforced  here  at  the  institu¬ 
tion. 

Dr.  Taylor — I  believe  you  testified  when  you  were  asked  if  you 
had  seen  any  of  the  Regents  making  the  tours  of  inspection  on  your 
wards,  you  testified  that  you  had  seen  two  last  summer?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  How  long  are  you  on  the  wards  per  day?  How  long  does  it 
take  you  to  make  your  round  in  the  morning?  A.  Generally  by 
a  quarter  of  eleven,  or  eleven,  sometimes  half-past  eleven. 

Q.  When  do  you  go  on?  A.  From  a  quarter  of  nine  to  eleven. 

Q.  From  nine  to  eleven  on  the  wards?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Anywhere  from  a  quarter  of  nine  to  eleven?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  are  off  until  what  hour  in  the  evening?  A.  In  the 
neighborhood  of  four  o’clock. 

0.  For  about  two  hours?  A.  From  one  and  a  half  to  two  hours. 

Q.  In  the  meantime  would  not  it  be  quite  possible  that  Dr.  Bab¬ 
cock  or  the  Regents  could  come  through  there,  through  your  wards, 
without  your  being  aware  that  he  was  there  at  all?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  not  always  notified  when  one  in  authority  wants  to 
go  through?  A.  No,  if  Dr.  Babcock  or  Dr.  Saunders  wants  to  go 
they  can  do  so. 

Q.  Haven’t  you  known  several  times  of  Regents  being  on  your 
wards  and  speaking  about  conditions  when  you  were  not  present? 
A.  Sometimes,  I  will  admit. 

0.  And  you  have  known  of  their  being  present?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Which  you  did  not  mention  this  morning  when  you  testified? 
A.  I  think  the  question  was,  did  I  know  or  did  I  see  them  there. 

Q.  In  your  presence?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  knew  of  their  being  their  without  your  being  present? 
A.  I  cannot  recollect  whether  it  was  last  summer.  I  know  there 
were  instances  where  they  were. 


196 


Q.  They  have  been  there  without  your  knowing  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Frequently?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  had  any  cases  in  court  growing  out  of  the  abuse 
of  patients  here?  A.  No,  sir,  I  cannot  recollect  any  instances. 

Mr.  J.  M.  Mitchell,  white,  being  duly  sworn,  testified  as  fol¬ 
lows  : 

Mr.  Harrison — What  is  your  age,  Mr.  Mitchell?  A.  47. 

Q.  You  have  been  in  the  service  of  the  institution  about  how 
long?  A.  24  years. 

Q.  You  are  called  the  supervisor  of  the  white  male  department? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  other  duties  besides  that  ?  A.  I  fill  the  prescrip¬ 
tions  for  the  institution  with  the  assistance  of  another  man. 

Q.  You  are  the  pharmacist?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  an  assistant?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  is  he?  A.  J.  W.  Austin. 

Q.  What  are  his  duties  outside  of  assisting  you?  A.  He  super¬ 
vises  the  colored  male  wards. 

Q.  I  would  like  to  ask  you  to  give  the  Committee  an  idea  of  your 
duties.  You  understand  the  question.  Just  outline  your  duty  on 
your  own  wards?  A.  I  get  in  here  between  seven  and  eight  o’clock, 
and  the  first  thing  I  do  is  to  make  out  my  report.  I  make  that  out 
from  the  reports  brought  in  by  the  nurses,  make  that  on  the  book. 
I  bring  that  up  to  the  office  after  I  get  it  ready.  There  are  different 
little  things  that  come  up,  and  I  attend  to  them.  Then  I  get  ready  to 
go  through  the  wards  with  Dr.  Thompson,  and  he  usually  starts  at 
nine  o’clock.  Then  I  go  through  the  house  with  Dr.  Thompson.  I 
attend  to  various  things  as  I  go  through,  give  the  nurses  instruc¬ 
tions,  etc.,  and  then  when  we  complete  the  round,  which  we  gener¬ 
ally  get  through  with  about  eleven  or  half  past. 

O.  Eleven  or  half  past?  A.  And  then  I  fill  the  prescriptions  for 
the  house  with  the  assistance  of  Mr.  Austin  for  the  whole  institu¬ 
tion. 

Q.  That  is  in  the  morning?  A.  That  is  in  the  morning. 

Q.  About  how  long  does  it  take  to  fill  the  prescriptions,  Mr. 
Mitchell?  A.  We  usually  get  through  about  one  o’clock.  Some¬ 
times  we  do  not,  but  as  a  general  thing  we  do  get  through  by  one 
o’clock. 

Q.  Then  what?  A.  In  the  afternoon  the  medicine  is  to  be  pre- 


i97 


pared  for  the  next  day,  the  supply  of  medicines.  Different  things 
have  to  be  made,  filling  capsules  of  quinine,  etc. 

Q.  What  is  known  as  stock  medicines,  I  guess?  A.  Such  things 
as  are  prescribed  regularly  every  day,  kept  in  stock  all  the  time. 

Q.  Mr.  Mitchell,  in  that  pharmacy,  are  you  alone  in  there,  or  are 
you  subject  to  the  visits  of  other  people?  Can  any  one  else  come  in 
there?  A.  O,  yes,  usually  two  or  three  nurses.  The  nurses  from 
the  female  department  bring  in  the  basket,  and  the  nurses  from  the 
male  department  are  frequent  visitors  in  there. 

Q.  Do  they  interfere  in  any  way  with  your  work?  A.  Yes,  sir,  at 
times  they  do.  It  is  rather  confusing  at  times. 

Q.  Would  not  that  state  of  affairs  tend  to  cause  you  to  make 
mistakes  in  filling  a  prescription  ?  A.  Naturally  it  would. 

Q.  What  sort  of  order  and  arrangement,  so  far  as  a  well  ordered 
drug  store  goes  ?  In  what  state  of  order  is  that  kept  in  your  opinion, 
is  it  in  a  state  of  order  or  in  a  state  of  disorder?  A.  I  would  rather 
not  give  opinions.  I  will  give  you  the  facts  as  they  are  to  the  best 
of  my  knowledge. 

Q.  You  cannot  help  that,  Mr.  Mitchell?  A.  Do  you  consider 
that  evidence,  a  man’s  opinion  about  things? 

Q.  We  would  consider  your  opinion  on  that  subject  as  evidence 
in  this  inquiry.  This  is  not  a  court  of  law.  This  is  an  inquiry,  and 
you  are  the  pharmacist  of  the  institution,  and  I  would  like  to  ask  you 
to  tell  us  if  it  is  in  a  state  of  order  or  of  disorder?  A.  You  mean 
in  what  respect  ? 

Q.  In  respect  to  the  bottles  being  on  the  shelves  and  everything 
kept  clean,  and  everything  like  that.  Is  it  possible  under  the  cir¬ 
cumstances  to  keep  it  in  a  condition  of  order,  Mr.  Mitchell?  A. 
Well,  if  I  had  the  proper  help,  that  is,  if  I  had  a  man  to  attend  to  it, 
it  would  be  possible. 

Q.  I  mean  under  the  circumstances  that  you  are  now,  that  is  to  say, 
with  the  nurses  coming  in  to  get  the  medicines,  and  you  having  one 
man  to  help  you,  and  I  just  wanted  to  know  if  you  could  keep  it  in 
an  orderly  condition  ?  A.  No,  I  am  not  able  to  keep  it  like  a  regular 
drug  store,  and  the  things  cannot  be  arranged  like  a  regular  drug 
store.  In  a  drug  store,  you  know,  they  have  a  regular  prescription 
counter,  and  the  druggist  goes  and  fills  his  prescription,  and  he 
is  not  interrupted. 

Q.  That  is  what  I  wanted  ?  A.  I  did  not  know  exactly  what  you 
were  driving  at.  I  thought  you  wanted  my  opinion.  I  would  rather 
not  give  opinions  if  you  will  excuse  me  from  that. 


198 


Q.  You  say  you  have  no  regular  prescription  counter  that  you  can 
go  behind  where  you  will  not  be  interrupted  while  at  work?  A.  No, 
sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  counter  have  you?  A.  Just  something  like  a 
table  nearly  in  the  center  of  the  room. 

Q.  Your  prescriptions  are  compounded  on  that  table?  A.  Yes, 
sir.  Rather  it  is  a  counter.  Is  not  a  regular  table.  It  has  a  marble 
slab  on  it. 

Q.  Is  it  possible  for  other  parties  besides  the  druggist  and  his 
assistant,  to  pass  behind  and  around  that  table,  Mr.  Mitchell?  A. 
O,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  they  do  that?  A.  They  do  that,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  While  you  are  filling  your  prescriptions?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  what  you  spoke  of  when  you  said  that  the  presence 
of  outside  parties  was  liable  to  cause  mistakes?  A.  Yes,  sir,  it  is 
confusing,  of  course,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  is  the  prescription  brought,  and  how  are  they  carried 
on  the  wards,  etc.  ?  A.  The  prescriptions  are  usually  brought  in  a 
book,  book  form,  not  on  regular  prescription  papers,  as  a  physi¬ 
cian  would  prescribe  in  town  today  in  general  practice. 

Q.  It  is  brought  in  a  book?  A.  Yes,  sir,  in  a  book  form  as  a 
general  thing. 

Q.  They  write  the  formula  in  that  book?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  they  write  the  name  of  the  patient  in  that  book  also?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Those  are  brought  to  you  each  day,  the  books  from  the  various 
departments?  A.  Yes,  sir,  as  a  general  thing. 

Q.  Who  brings  you  those  books?  A.  Well,  in  the  white  female 
department  the  nurses  or  Dr.  Saunders  brings  them,  and  Dr.  Thomp¬ 
son  brings  them  from  the  white — 

Q.  Male  department?  A.  He  either  brings  it  or  sends  it  to  me 
by  the  hall  servant ;  when  he  finishes  writing  the  prescriptions,  he 
either  sends  or  brings  them. 

Q.  From  the  Parker  building?  A.  Dr.  Griffin. 

Q.  He  brings  it?  A.  He  or  Mr.  Austin. 

Q.  He  is  the  supervisor  of  that  ward?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  From  the  negro  woman’s  building,  how  do  you  get  that  book? 
A.  Well,  when  that  book  come  it  comes  in  the  basket. 

Q.  What  is  that  basket?  A.  It  is  made  of  tin. 

O.  That  basket  is  for  sending  out  medicines?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  And  it  is  brought  by — ?  A.  The  hall  servant. 


199 


Q.  Are  those  prescriptions  usually  made  out  regularly,  that  is, 
according  to  the  regular  prescription  form?  A.  From  where,  the 
old  building? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  Dr.  Babcock  makes  up  the  form  of  prescriptions. 

Q.  How  was  that  done?  He  is  the  physician  in  charge  at  this 
building,  how  is  that  prescription  brought  to  you?  Just  describe  it 
as  accurately  as  possible?  A.  Well,  at  times,  the  book,  as  I  said  a 
while  ago,  comes,  and  at  times  Miss  Quarles  just  sends  in  for  what 
she  wants.  I  don’t  know  whether  the  medicine  gives  out  or  it  is  a 
new  prescription.  I  could  not  say. 

Q.  She  just  puts  it  in  the  book  and  sends  it  in?  A.  Often  comes 
without  it. 

Q.  Not  on  the  book?  A.  Or  on  a  form,  just  a  loose  prescription, 
or,  rather,  writing.  You  could  not  consider  it  a  prescription. 

Q.  From  the  white  male  department,  does  it  come  in  the  shape 
of  a  prescription?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  And  from  the  white  female  department  in  the  same  way?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  from  the  Parker  building  in  the  same  way?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  When  you  fill  the  prescriptions,  is  that  book  returned  to  the 
department  with  the  prescriptions?  A.  Yes,  it  goes  back  with  the 
basket. 

Q.  What  copy  do  you  retain  in  your  office  of  that  prescription? 
A.  I  do  not  retain  any  copy. 

Q.  You  retain  nothing?  A.  I  take  the  label  and  put  the  name  on 
it,  and  I  can  find  it  in  the  regular  prescription  book. 

Q.  Is  that  prescription  copied  into  a  prescription  book,  Mr. 
Mitchell?  A.  No,  sir.  That  would  necessitate  a  great  deal  of 
work,  and  we  do  not  do  it. 

O.  I  understand  that,  but  you  spoke  of  a  regular  prescription 
book?  A.  That  is  the  book  that  goes  on  the  ward.  It  is  called 
the  ward  prescription  book. 

Q.  Then  you  can  turn  to  the  day  of  the  month  and  find  the 
prescription?  A.  O,  yes,  sir;  but  if  the  book  is  destroyed,  I  could 
not  do  it. 

Q.  If  destroyed,  it  would  be  lost?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  In  giving  this  medicine,  issuing  this  medicine,  is  the  standard 
dose  used?  A.  Wha^  do  you  mean  by  standard  dose? 

O.  For  instance,  is  it  customary  to  mix  your  medicines  in  such 
a  way  that  a  tablespoonful  or  a  teaspoonful  shall  be  a  dose,  whatever 
it  is?  A.  Yes,  sir 


200 


O.  There  is  a  standard  then  ?  A.  We  have  a  regular  graduated 
glass  to  measure  it.  Is  that  it? 

Q.  I  have  seen  that  method  followed  where  on  the  bottle,  on 
every  bottle,  was  marked,  dose,  or  tablespoonful.  In  other  words,  no 
matter  what  the  medicines,  the  dose  would  be  a  tablespoonful?  A. 
We  have  no  such  arrangement  as  that.  The  physician  puts  at  the 
bottom  of  the  prescription  a  tablespoon ful  for  a  dose,  or  a  tea¬ 
spoonful  for  a  dose,  and  I  put  it  on  the  label  on  the  bottle. 

Q.  I  only  make  that  to  convey  the  idea.  It  may  be  tablespoonful, 
one  or  two  or  more?  A.  As  the  case  may  be. 

Q.  That  is  issued  as  you  say  along  with  the  bottle?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  those  bottles  are  sent  out  to  the  various  wards?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  On  that  bottle  is  written  the  name  of  the  patient  for  whom 
intended  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  the  formula  written  on  that?  A.  No,  sir,  only  dated.  In 
most  cases,  not  in  every  case,  they  have  regular  standard  medicines 
on  the  wrard  and  from  time  to  time  they  write  out  prescriptions,  say 
to  get  so  and  so,  such  and  such  a  medicine  as  kino.  It  has  several 
ingredients,  but  we  have  several  standard  medicines  that  it  is  under¬ 
stood  what  it  is.  Cholorine  and  those  things  have  several  ingre¬ 
dients,  and  it  is  known  what  is  meant  when  that  name  is  applied  to 
a  medicine. 

O.  That  comes  in  on  the  prescription  book?  A.  So  much  cholor¬ 
ine.  If  it  is  not  on  the  ward,  the  nurses  have  instructions  to  get  it. 

Q.  I  was  just  going  to  take  up  the  pharmacy,  and  I  just  wanted 
to  get  out  the  method  of  combining  and  issuing  the  medicines.  They 
are  sent  out  in  a  basket  ?  A.  Sent  in  a  basket. 

Q.  And  the  book  is  returned  with  the  medicines?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Sent  to  each  ward?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  make  the  rounds  with  Dr.  Thompson?  A.  I  make  the 
rounds  in  the  morning.  I  do  not  in  the  afternoon. 

Q.  In  the  afternoons  you  prepare  the  stock  medicines,  and  do  the 
other  work  that  is  necessary?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are,  of  course,  thoroughly  familiar  with  the  white  male 
department?  A.  Yes.  I  am  pretty  familiar  with  it. 

Q.  How  many  patients  have  you?  A.  We  have  340  whites. 

Q.  I  was  asking  for  an  approximation  ?  A.  340. 

Q.  How  many  nurses  have  you  on  duty  today,  do  you  remember, 
Mr.  Mitchell?  A.  I  can  tell  in  a  minute,  fourteen  or  fifteen.  One 


201 


or  two  went  on  duty  this  morning.  I  will  have  to  go  out  to  get  the 
exact  number. 

0.  Are  those  attendants  in  your  judgment  sufficient  to  attend  to 
those  patients?  A.  You  mean  quantity? 

Q.  Are  there  enough  of  them  there  to  attend  to  the  patients 
properly?  A.  As  I  said  a  while  ago,  I  would  rather  not  give  an 
opinion.  \ 

Q.  That  is  a  question  that  would  naturally  come  in,  you  are 
the  supervisor  there?  A.  Yes,  but  an  opinion  in  a  thing  like  this 
could  not  be  considered  evidence. 

The  Chairman — We  want  your  opinion.  A.  I  will  say  this.  We 
haven't  got  the  amount  we  should  have  here. 

Q.  How  many  nurses  in  your  department  would  do  the  work,  and 
do  it  properly?  A.  You  are  going  to  force  me  into  an  opinion? 

Q.  Certainly.  A.  Well,  we  should  have  at  least  twenty-four 
nurses  in  my  department. 

Q.  You  mean  that  would  be  a  minimum,  the  least  number  that 
you  should  have  in  your  judgment?  A.  To  handle  them  properly. 

Q.  Mr.  Mitchell,  are  all  of  your  men  competent  nurses?  A.  Com¬ 
petent,  sir,  in  what  capacity? 

Q.  In  the  capacity  in  which  they  are  employed?  A.  No,  they 
are  not. 

0.  Are  any  of  them  illiterate?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Will  you  tell  the  Committee  here  the  illiterate  nurses?  A. 
Well,  there  are  two  on  the  wards. 

Q.  Who  are  they?  A.  One  on  the  eighth. 

Q.  And  the  other?  A.  On  the  first  ward. 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  nurses  on  those  wards  with  them?  A. 
On  the  eighth  there  is  not,  on  the  first  there  are  two  of  them. 

O.  And  on  the  first?  Aren’t  medicines  issued  to  that  man  on  the 
eighth  ward  ?  A.  He  has  only  been  there  for  a  day  or  two.  I  have 
not  filled  a  prescription  for  the  eighth  since  he  has  been  there 
though. 

O.  Do  those  illiterate  nurses  ever  administer  medicines  to  patients 
that  you  know  of?  A.  Well,  not  to  my  own  knowledge. 

O.  To  your  own  knowledge?  A.  No,  sir. 

0.  Is  is  possible  that  they  should?  A.  Well,  it  is  very  probable 
that  they  would. 

O.  Very  probable  that  they  would?  A.  Yes,  sir.  They  could 
answer  that  easier  than  I. 

Q.  I  understand  that.  But  it  is  possible  they  might  do  so?  A. 


202 


Yes,  sir,  these  medicines  are  given  on  the  wards,  and  it  is  probable 
that  he  would  give  the  medicine. 

Q.  Probable  that  he  would  give  the  medicine?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  anybody  else  on  the  eighth  ward?  A.  No  other 
nurses. 

Q.  Then,  unless  he  administered  it,  or  went  and  got  some  other 
nurse,  they  would  not  be  administered?  A.  No. 

Q.  Could  he  read  the  label  on  the  bottle?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  He  could  not?  A.  No,  sir.  He  can  neither  read  nor  write. 

Q.  How  does  he  make  his  report?  A.  Well,  he  has  to  get  some¬ 
body  to  make  it  for  him. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  reported  that  condition  to  the  physician  in 
charge?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  have.  This  man  that  I  am  speaking  of  now 
is  the  regular  dining  room  man. 

Q.  What  is  his  name?  A.  Abbott. 

Q.  What  is  his  character?  Is  he  a  pretty  good  fellow?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  he  is  a  splendid  fellow. 

Q.  A  good  man?  A.  A  good  man,  but  is  illiterate.  Of  course, 
he  is  unfortunate. 

Q.  How  about  the  other  party ?  His  name  is  what?  A.  His  name 
is  Brown. 

0.  He  is  on  the  first  ward  now?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  As  to  his  ability?  A.  Well,  he  can  read  some. 

Q.  Can  he  read  the  label  on  a  bottle,  you  think,  in  writing?  A. 
Y  ell,  if  it  was  written  very  plainly,  I  suppose  he  could  read  some 
of  it  maybe. 

Q.  Does  he  make  out  his  reports  himself?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  does?  A.  He  makes  out  his  reports. 

Q.  What  kind  of  man  is  he?  A.  Brown  is  a  pretty  good  man,  a 
very  good  fellow,  so  far  as  I  know. 

Q.  Mr.  Mitchell,  in  the  white  male  department  are  the  floors 
kept  clean  ?  A.  They  are  scoured  from  time  to  time. 

Q.  I  understand  that,  but  were  they  kept  clean?  A.  No,  not 
clean. 

Q.  Are  the  rooms  kept  clean,  the  floors?  A.  Just  about  like 
the  corridors.  They  are  scoured  from  time  to  time. 

Q.  But  are  not  kept  clean?  A.  They  are  not  scoured  as  often 
as  they  ought  to  be,  I  guess.  I  haven’t  got  the  help. 

Q.  Is  it  possible  under  the  circumstances  for  you  to  keep  them 
clean?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  It  is  not  possible  under  the  circumstances?  A.  No,  sir. 


203 


Q.  And  those  circumstances  would  be  what?  A.  More  help. 

Q.  Lack  of  assistants?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  windows,  are  they  washed  with  regularity?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  They  are  not?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Are  they  dirty  or  clean  ?  A.  They  are  somewhat  dirty. 

Q.  The  bathrooms  and  tubs  and  closets,  etc.,  are  they  kept  clean? 
A.  No,  in  bad  condition. 

Q.  They  are  in  bad  condition?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  a  disagreeable  odor  connected  with  the  bath  room  ? 
A.  From  time  to  time  there  is. 

Q.  The  atmosphere  on  the  wards  generally,  does  it  smell  well  or 
ill?  A.  The  closets? 

Q.  Generally  going  through  the  wards,  would  the  odor  be 
unpleasant?  A.  That  would  depend  upon  circumstances.  If  a 
person  is  not  accustomed  to  it,  I  guess  it  would. 

Q.  After  you  get  used  to  it  you  do  not  notice  it?  A.  No,  sir. 

0.  Mr.  Mitchell,  how  about  the  beds  that  they  sleep  on,  are  they 
wood  or  iron?  A.  Well,  sir,  some  wood  and  some  iron. 

Q.  You  have  quite  a  good  many  patients  sleeping  on  the  floor? 
A.  I  have  several. 

Q.  Have  you  enough  beds  to  give  every  man  a  bed?  A.  Bed¬ 
steads  or  beds? 

0.  Bedsteads?  A.  No,  I  have  not. 

Q.  Would  you  say  as  many  as  fifty  are  sleeping  on  the  floor? 
A.  Well,  now,  some  of  those  sleeping  on  the  floor  cannot  sleep  on 
bedsteads,  I  suppose. 

Q.  I  understand.  On  that  subject,  do  you  put  a  patient  on  what 
is  known  as  a  sawed  off  bedstead?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  would  be  used?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  a  narrow  bed?  A.  Cots.  We  have  them.  We  have 
not  got  a  sufficient  number  now. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Mitchell,  on  the  seventh  ward  where  you  have  the 
violent  patients,  how  many  attendants  have  you  on  that  ward  today? 
A.  For  several  years  that  ward  has  been  classed  with  the  fourth 
ward. 

Q.  The  fourth  ?  A.  That  was  always  classed  with  the  fourth 
after  the  Taylor  building  was  completed.  It  was  classed  with- the 
fourth  ward.  There  are  two  attendants  on  that. 

0.  One  on  the  fourth  and  one  on  the  seventh?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  About  how  many  patients  occupy  those  two  wards?  A.  I 
think  there  are  fifty  patients  there.  I  will  not  be  sure. 


204 


O.  I  am  after  an  approximation.  Now,  some  of  those  patients 
are  very  destructive,  are  they  not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  About  what  bedding  do  they  get  on  the  seventh  ward,  Mr. 
Mitchell?  A.  Well,  they  usually  have  a  straw  bed,  a  couple  of 
blankets,  from  two  to  three  in  cold  weather. 

Q.  Do  they  tear  them  up  ?  A.  O,  yes,  sir,  some  of  them  do. 

Q.  After  they  tear  up  that  strawbed,  do  they  ever  sleep  right  on 
the  straw?  A.  Yes,  sir.  Some  you  can’t  keep  a  bedtick  there.  They 
will  jump  on  it  and  tear  it  up  as  soon  as  it  comes  in. 

Q.  Some  are  in  restraint  and  some  are  not?  A.  All  of  them 
that  tear,  do  it  in  restraint. 

Q.  Tear  it  up  anyhow?  A.  They  tear  it  with  theii  teeth. 

0.  Those  men  are  filthy,  aren't  they,  in  their  habits?  A.  Most 
of  them  are. 

O.  Don’t  they  get  filth  all  over  themselves  ?  A.  O,  yes,  sir. 

O.  Is  it  possible  for  one  attendant  to  keep  those  men  in  that 
ward  clean  ?  A.  Not  that  number — on  both  wards. 

O.  Is  it  not  possible?  A.  No,  sir,  he  could  not  attend  to  all  those 
men. 

0.  Is  it  so  that  they  lay  for  a  good  while  in  their  own  filth?  A. 
They  are  neglected  to  a  certain  extent. 

O.  Do  you  think  your  attendants  do  the  best  they  can  under  the 
circumstances?  A.  No,  not  all  of  them. 

0.  But  that  is  a  very  difficult  class  of  patients  to  handle?  A. 
Yes,  it  is  a  hard  class  to  deal  with. 

•  O.  Hard  to  control?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  you  had  enough  attendants  down  there,  would  you  think 
it  possible  or  not  to  keep  them  fairly  decent?  A.  Yes,  if  I  had  a 
sufficient  force. 

Q.  Now,  you  say  that  these  conditions  that  you  spoke  of,  that 
the  floors  of  the  rooms  were  unclean,  is  that  condition  general  all 
over  the  ward?  A.  Yes,  sir,  more  or  less. 

0.  How  about  the  beds,  are  they  kept  clean  at  all  ?  A.  You  mean 
the  bedclothes? 

Q.  The  mattresses,  are  you  able  to  keep  those  clean,  Mr.  Mitchell  ? 
A.  Vermin?  I  want  to  get  it  clear  what  you  want. 

O'  Take  the  question  of  vermin.  Have  they  bugs  on  them  there? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  there  are  bugs  on  the  beds  from  time  to  time,  sir. 

O.  Is  that  a  pretty  general  condition  throughout  the  ward,  or  not? 
A.  More  or  less,  there  is  some  vermin,  yes,  sir. 


205 


Q.  Have  they  got  head  lice  in  that  department?  A.  Well,  they 
have,  yes,  from  time  to  time. 

0.  Any  body  lice?  A.  They  bring  patients  to  the  institution 
with  them. 

Q.  When  they  bring  them  to  the  institution  they  are  received 
directly  on  the  wards?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  a  patient  would  bring  in  body  lice  or  head  lice,  bring 
them  in  on  the  ward,  would  not  they  spread  throughout  that  ward? 
A.  Naturally  transferred  from  one  to  another,  yes. 

Q.  Is  that  the  way  there?  A.  The  instruction  is  to  bathe  all  new 
patients,  but  the  instructions  are  not  always  carried  out.  It  is  in 
this  place  like  it  would  be  anywhere  else. 

Q.  They  are  not  always  obeyed?  A.  No,  they  are  not  always 
carried  out.  My  instructions  are  to  bathe  all  new  patients,  but  in 
some  instances  it  is  not  done.  In  that  way  vermin  very  often  get 
through  the  wards,  sir. 

0.  As  soon  as  you  find  it  out  you  take  steps  to  check  it?  A.  As 
soon  as  it  is  brought  to  my  attention. 

Q.  Whose  fault  is  it  that  the  instructions  are  not  carried  out? 
A.  Well,  that  is  a  sort  of  a — I  have  repqrted  these  things  to  Dr. 
Thompson  and  Dr.  Babcock  both. 

0.  That  is  as  far  as  you  can  state  on  the  subject?  A,  I  don’t 
know  of  any  particular  instances.  I  have  reported  them. 

0.  To  both  physicians,  you  say?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman — Have  you  any  direct  control  of  the  nurses?  A. 
No,  sir,  I  have  the  supervision  of  them,  but  I  have  not  the  control, 
or  the  right  of  discharging,  is  that  what  you  mean  ? 

Q.  You  have  no  disciplinary  control  over  them,  if  they  do  not 
carry  out  your  orders  or  requests?  A.  The  only  thing  I  can  do  is 
to  report  them. 

0.  And  when  you  report  them,  what  is  done?  A.  In  some 
instances  the  nurse  is  discharged,  and  in  some  he  is  not. 

Mr.  Harrison — Mr.  Mitchell,  how  about  those  ward  dining  rooms? 
Are  they  kept  clean  or  not?  Are  the  ward  dining  rooms  kept  clean  ? 
A.  About  as  clean  as  the  wards. 

Q.  About  the  same  condition  prevails  ?  A.  About  the  same  con¬ 
dition  as  the  wards. 

Q.  How  about  serving?  A.  On  the  wards? 

Q.  \\  hen  they  bring  it  up  in  the  dumbwaiter,  you  sav  there  is 
a  serving  room  for  the  food,  how  is  that  kept?  A.  Not  very  clean, 
could  be  kept  cleaner. 


206 


Q.  Would  you  say  it  was  dirty?  A.  Yes,  I  would  say  it  was 
dirty. 

O.  Now,  take  the  mattresses,  while  we  are  on  that  subject.  You 
have  a  great  many  filthy  patients  to  deal  with?  A.  Yes,  sir,  on 
some  wards ;  on  some,  not  many. 

Q.  Those  patients  have  no  control  over  their  bodily  functions  at 
all?  A.  Some  of  them  have  not. 

Q.  How  do  you  protect  your  mattresses?  A.  That  is  done  with 
a  rubber  sheet. 

Q.  Is  that  rubber  sheet  kept  in  place?  By  what  method  do  you 
keep  it  in  place?  Is  there  any  method  of  keeping  it  in  place?  A. 
Well,  no.  You  can  tie  it  with  strings,  but  that  does  not  keep  it 
there. 

O.  Does  it  get  moved  off  the  mattress?  A.  O,  yes,  sir,  they  are 
supposed  to  be  turned  from  one  side  to  another. 

O.  Does  the  patient  ever  soil  the  mattress  ?  A.  O,  yes,  from  time 
to  time  he  gets  the  sheet  off.  A  rubber  sheet  is  very  difficult  to  keep 
on  a  bed. 

O.  Is  that  mattress  when  it  is  soiled  always  changed  ?  A.  My 
instructions  are  to  change  them. 

Q.  Are  they  carried  out?  A.  Not  in  every  case. 

Q.  When  those  instructions  are  not  carried  out,  does  that  patient 
just  lie  on  that  mattress  in  his  own  filth  in  this  condition?  A.  In 
the  soiled  condition?  ' 

Q.  Yes.  A.  Not  if  I  find  it  out. 

Q.  Is  it  ever  done?  Do  you  ever  find  those  conditions  existing 
when  making  inspections?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  found  beds  soiled, 
that  is,  with  urine,  especially. 

The  Chairman — You  consider  the  nurses  to  blame  if  you  find 
those  cases?  A.  Well,  yes.  it  is,  more  or  less  negligence,  because 
they  could  change  them  for  feeble  patients. 

Q.  Can  you  in  any  way  through  discipline  prevent  that  negligence? 
A.  No,  I  have  never  thought  of  enforcing  it. 

Mr.  Harrison — Have  you  an  office?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  that  in  direct  touch  with  the  wards?  A.  It  is  in  the  same 
building.  It  is  near  the  white  male  department. 

0.  You  are  familiar  with  the  kitchen,  are  you  not?  You  go  in 
there?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  go  there  occasionally. 

O.  Who  has  it  in  charge?  Who  is  the  chief  executive  in  the 
kitchen?  A.  Mr.  Earle  has  charge  of  the  kitchen. 


207 


Q.  What  white  assistant  has  he?  A.  Mr.  Rabon  is  there  with 
him. 

Q.  How  many  hired  employees  has  he,  do  you  know  ?  A.  No. 
I  could  not  give  the  exact  number.  I  do  not  remember  the  number. 

Q.  They  have  a  hired  cook  in  that  kitchen?  A.  O,  yes,  sir,  they 
have  a  hired  cook. 

Q.  Have  they  any  other  hired  help  besides  the  cook?  A.  They 
have  pati'ents  there. 

Q.  What  is  the  general  condition?  Is  the  kitchen  kept  clean? 
A.  Well,  the  kitchen  is  fairly  clean.  It  will  compare  with  the  rest 
of  the  building. 

Q.  I  don’t  mean  that.  Is  it  clean?  A.  No,  of  course,  it  is  not 
clean. 

Q.  How  about  the  employees  in  the  kitchen?  Are  they  clean? 
A.  You  mean  in  their  dress  in  cooking? 

Q.  Dress.  A.  No,  they  are  not  so  clean  as  they  might  be. 

Q.  Would  you  say  the  patients  employed  in  the  kitchen  are  clean 
and  their  clothing  clean?  A.  Well,  of  course,  at  times  it  is  not  and 
at  times  it  is.  The  patient  has  to  change  once  a  week. 

Q.  Where  do  those  patients  sleep?  A.  You  mean  white  or  col¬ 
ored  ? 

Q.  Some  white?  A.  Some  white  and  some  colored. 

Q.  I  was  speaking  particularly  of  the  colored  at  that  time  ?  A. 
I  could  not  tell  about  the  colored  patients.  That  is  in  Mr. — 

Q.  They  sleep  in  the  Parker  building?  A.  In  the  colored  depart¬ 
ment.  I  can  tell  about  the  whites— in  the  white  male  wards. 

Q.  How  often  are  those  men  bathed  that  w'ork  in  the  kitchen? 
A.  They  are  supposed  to  do  it  once  a  week. 

Q.  Is  that  really  done?  A.  I  could  not  answer  that  question.  I 
cannot  follow  those  things  in  detail. 

Q.  Their  clothing  you  say  is  changed  only  once  a  week?  A.  They 
are  supposed  to  be.  I  do  not  know  really  whether  it  is  done  or  not. 

Q.  What  kind  of  aprons  do  they  wear  ?  Do  they  ever  wear  crocus 
sacks?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Are  those  sacks  they  wear  in  front  of  them  kept  clean,  Mr. 
Mitchell?  A.  Well,  no,  I  would  not  consider  the  sacks  clean.  That 
is  what  they  are  worn  for,  to  keep  the  dirt  from  the  clothes. 

0.  The  dirt,  therefore,  is  on  the  sacks?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  they  handle  the  food?  A.  O,  yes,  sir,  they  handle  the 
food. 

Q.  Is  there  a  door  to  that  kitchen  that  opens  directly  on  the  rear 


208 


hallway  down  there,  that  opens  out  on  the  yard  behind  there?  A. 
Well,  there  is  a  door  in  the  end  of  the  kitchen  and  one  on  the  side. 

Q.  There  is  a  door  giving  access  to  the  store  room,  is  there  not, 
that  goes  out  on  the  yard  ?  A.  That  is  at  the  end  of  the  kitchen. 

Q.  Is  that  door  kept  closed  or  open?  A.  I  could  not  answer  that 
cjuestion. 

0.  Have  you  ever  seen  patients  in  the  kitchen  that  did  not  belong 
there,  negro  patients?  A.  Now,  I  am  not  very  familiar  with  the 
negro  patients,  sir. 

Q.  You  could  not  tell  whether  they  were  employed  or  unemployed  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  a  white  patient  there  that  did  not  work 
there  ?  A.  I  have  seen  them  sent  down  to  get  things. 

Q.  They  were  not  employed  in  the  kitchen?  A.  Working  in  the 
mess  hall  and  went  to  the  kitchen  for  things. 

Q.  You  were  speaking  on  the  subject  of  the  mess  hall,  that  is 
located,  as  I  understand,  in  the  rear  part  of  this  building,  the 
main  mess  hall?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  place  is  it — clean  ?  A.  Well,  it  is  not  as  clean  as 
it  might  be. 

Q.  Are  the  tables  clean  ?  A.  The  tables  are  scoured  once  a  week. 

0.  Is  there  any  cloth  on  those  tables?  A.  No,  none  at  all. 

Q.  Now,  when  the  food  is  brought  from  the  kitchen,  who  dishes 
it  out  to  the  patients?  A.  Patients  do  that.  They  do  the  principal 
part  of  it. 

Q.  Is  it  put  in  a  plate  or  on  the  table?  A.  What  do  you  mean? 
The  food  ? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  In  the  mess  hall  it  is  put  on  the  plates. 

Q.  The  bread  ?  A.  Bread  is  put  on  the  table,  and  the  hominy 
and  vegetables  and  soups  were  put  on  the  plates. 

Q.  The  vegetables,  etc.,  are  put  on  the  plates?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  And  the  bread  on  the  table?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  they  drink?  A.  Coffee  for  breakfast,  water  for 
dinner  and  tea  for  supper. 

Q.  Is  milk  served  in  that  dining  room?  A.  No,  not  unless  they 
have  a  surplus.  I  am  speaking  of  the  mess  hall  now. 

Q.  You  have  a  dining  room  of  your  own?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  How  do  you  find  the  food?  A.  Well,  the  food  is  not  very 
palatable. 

0.  Do  you  eat  there  regularly?  A.  Well,  I  eat  breakfast  at 
home. 


209 


Q.  How  about  dinner  ?  A.  I  eat  dinner  here. 

Q.  You  eat  dinner  here?  A.  Yes,  sir,  in  my  dining  room. 

Q.  And  your  supper?  A.  I  seldom  ever  eat  supper. 

The  Chairman— Do  you  eat  the  asylum  fare  when  you  eat  here? 
A.  No,  I  have  my  dinner  sent  from  home. 

Q.  You  don’t  eat  the  institution’s  food  at  all?  A.  No. 

Q.  Why  not?  A.  Well,  I  don’t  find  it  very  palatable. 

Q.  Do  you  consider  it  unclean?  A.  The  method  of  preparation 
is  not  as  clean  as  it  is  in  a  private  family. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  is  wholesome?  A.  Well,  it  is  not  for  me,  but 
I  am  a  dyspeptic,  and  different  from  a  great  many  people. 

Q.  How  long  since  you  have  eaten  here?  A.  I  think  it  has  been 
some  three  or  four  years  since  I  ate  here  regularly.  I  do  not  remem¬ 
ber  the  date  exactly. 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Mitchell,  who  is  in  charge  of  the  mess  hall  here? 
A.  At  present  Mr.  Baxter. 

0.  Is  he  a  competent  man?  A.  No,  sir,  I  don’t  consider  him  such. 
0.  Do  you  consider  the  man  in  charge  of  the  kitchen  a  compe- 
tant  man,  a  capable  man  ?  A.  He  is  capable  of  working.  Mr. 
Earle  does  not  know  anything  about  cooking.  I  don’t  think  he  ever 
„  had  any  training  in  that  line. 

0.  What  was  his  business?  A.  In  the  navy. 

0.  What  occupation  in  the  navy?  A.  I  don’t  know. 

Q.  You  don’t  consider  him  a  competent  cook?  A.  No.  Mr. 
Earle  does  not  know  anything  about  cooking.  He  is  a  good  worker. 

Q.  How  about  his  assistant?  A.  He  has  not  been  here  very  long. 
I  don’t  know  much  about  him. 

Q.  Is  there  any  matron  or  man  in  charge  of  that?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  are  they  responsible  to — the  kitchen  employees,  Mr. 
Mitchell?  A.  Who  are  they  responsible  to? 

0.  Yes,  sir.  Can  you  go  down  there  and  give  directions,  Mr. 
Mitchell?  A.  No.  I  don’t  do  that. 

Q.  You  have  no  right  to  do  that?  A.  No. 

Q.  Have  you  the  right  to  give  directions  in  the  dining  room,  the 
mess  hall?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  can  give  directions,  can  you?  Can  you  enforce  it  and  see 
that  it  is  carried  out?  A.  Tt  depends  upon  who  is  in  there. 

Q.  In  what  way  is  that ?  A.  It  depends  upon  who  is  in  charge 
of  the  dining  room. 

Q.  If  Mr.  Baxter  was  in  charge  of  the  dining  room,  could  you 
have  it  carried  out?  A.  Well,  no,  not  altogether. 


14— A. 


210 


Q.  Why  is  that?  A.  The  man  just  has  not  the  ability,  that  is  all. 

Q.  Do  you  ever  go  on  the  fifth  ward  when  they  are  feeding 
patients  there?  When  dinner  is  corning  in?  A.  O,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  method  of  feeding  the  patients,  that  is  the  hos¬ 
pital?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  you  have  sick,  feeble,  weak,  infirm,  what  is  the  method 
when  they  are  bed-ridden,  but  able  to  eat?  A.  That  is  usually 
attended  to  by  the  patients. 

Q.  The  patients  attend  to  that?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  No  nurses  to  do  that?  A.  You  don't  mean  those  who  refuse 
food  ? 

Q.  No.  A.  That  is  carried  on  by  one  of  the  nurses  with  the 
assistance  of  the  patients,  and  the  other  nurses  stay  in  the  dining 
room. 

Q.  You  have  some  of  those  patients  in  the  fifth  ward  on  pallets  on 
the  floor?  A.  Yes,  sir,  a  few  there. 

Q.  When  his  dinner  is  taken  to  him  what  is  it  put  on  in  case  he 
is  able  to  eat  it  himself?  A.  They  have  little  tables  to  put  the 
waiters  on. 

Q.  Do  they  use  those?  A.  In  some  instances  if  a  man  is  on  the 
floor  they  just  set  the  waiter  on  the  bed  or  on  the  floor. 

Q.  Do  they  always  use  a  waiter?  A.  No,  they  haven’t  got  a 
waiter  for  every  patient. 

Q.  When  they  eat  out  of  a  plate,  then,  they  sit  it  on  the  bed?  Do 
they  ever  sit  it  on  the  floor?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  his  pot  ever  sitting  on  the  floor  alongside  of  it?  A.  Not 
far  away. 

The  Chairman — Are  these  utensils  sometimes  filthy  and  smell? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Harrison — The  pot  he  is  speaking  of?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  under¬ 
stand. 

The  Chairman — Is  that  often  the  case?  A.  Yes,  sir,  pretty  often. 

Mr.  Harrison — Mr.  Mitchell,  the  question  came  up  this  morning 
in  regard  to  a  plot  that  the  asylum  owned  at  the  Elmwood  Ceme¬ 
tery  and  what  happened  there  several  years  ago  with  reference  to 
burying  the  dead,  do  you  recollect  that  the  bones  of  the  dead  there 
were  thrown  up  in  burying  other  people?  A.  I  recollect  that  the 
bones  were  thrown  up? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  O,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  did  that  occur,  Mr.  Mitchell?  A.  Well,  they  just 


21 1 


simply  dug  the  graves  into  the  same  old  graves  where  they  had 
been  buried  before. 

Q.  Did  you  see  that  yourself  ?  A.  Yes,  I  visited  the  plot.  That 
is  when  that  was  the  case,  sir. 

Q.  Was  that  in  one  grave  or  more  than  one?  A.  Did  that  happen 
more  than  one  time? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  That  was  the  only  time  that  I  saw  it. 

Q.  Was  it  just  one  grave  that  was  in  that  condition  or  several 
of  them  had  been  dug  down  into?  A.  O,  they  went  over  the  whole 
ground,  I  think.  This  matter  had  been  reported  to  me  from  time 
to  time. 

Q.  Who  made  those  reports  to  you  ?  A.  The  nurses. 

Q.  Will  you  give  the  names  of  those  nurses?  A.  I  can  give  the 
names  of  some  of  them. 

Q.  Which  are  those  that  you  can  think  of?  A.  They  are  not  all 
here  now. 

Q.  It  does  not  matter.  I  just  want  them.  A.  J.  M.  Raffle  was 
one,  G.  W.  Brown,  E.  J.  Jones.  That  is  all  I  can  recollect  now  who 
■complained  to  me. 

Q.  Mr.  Mitchell,  how  did  you  come  to  be  out  there  and  see  this 
state  of  affairs?  A.  I  was  sent. 

Q.  You  were  sent?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  By  whom?  A.  Dr.  Thompson. 

Q.  What  did  Dr.  Thompson  instruct  you  to  do?  A.  He  told  me 
to  go  up  there  and  see  that  the  bones  were  buried.  There  was  a 
party  to  be  buried  who  had  some  relatives  in  town,  and  he  did  not 
want  the  bones  exposed  there.  He  knew  what  was  going  on  as  well 
as  I  did  and  he  told  me  to  go  and  take  charge  of  the  corpse  and 
have  those  bones  buried. 

Q.  Did  you  bury  the  bones?  A.  Well,  I  instructed  the  grave¬ 
digger  to  do  it,  but  he  said  that  he  had  buried  the  largest  of  them, 
and  that  the  small  ones  were  mixed  up  through  the  dirt,  and  he 
could  not  do  it  on  that  account. 

Q.  Are  you  aware  of  what  the  intention  was  in  doing  that  work? 
A.  In  that  manner? 

O.  Yes,  that  it  was  to  dig  down  between  graves?  A.  That  was 
the  intention  of  it,  but  they  found  that  there  was  not  space  between 
the  two  graves  to  dig  down  for  another  one,  and  consequently  they 
dug  into  both  graves,  and  Mr.  Fugle  said  it  was  better  to  just  dig 
down  into  the  old  grave  and  put  the  body  in  there  and  put  the  con¬ 
tents  back. 


212 


Q.  You  say  they  buried  over  the  old  grave  in  that  manner,  Mr. 
Mitchell  ?  A.  That  was  my  understanding.  As  I  said  a  while  ago, 
I  only  visited  the  place  once. 

The  Chairman — How  long  did  that  go  on?  A.  I  can’t  give  the 
date.  I  will  say  a  year. 

Q.  Those  complaints  were  continuing  through  that  year,  wTere 
they?  A.  I  made  three  complaints. 

Q.  During  the  year?  A.  Yes,  sir,  during  the  time  it  was  going  on. 
It  might  have  been  going  on  longer  than  a  year.  I  cannot  be  positive 
about  the  time. 

Q.  What  are  they  doing  now  about  that  matter?  A.  They  are 
burying  at  the  Old  Soldiers’  Home  now. 

Q.  On  the  asylum  property  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Harrison — Did  you  report  that  matter  to  the  authorities? 
A.  I  reported  it  to  Dr.  Babcock  when  -it  was  started. 

Q.  What  did  the  doctor  tell  you?  A.  He  told  me  it  was  the 
best  he  could  do. 

Q.  He  told  you  it  was  the  best  he  could  do?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  about  the  fire  protection  in  this  institution.  In 
case  of  fire  what  instructions  have  you  from  the  authorities?  Are 
any  instructions  given  you  as  to  your  course  in  case  of  fire?  A.  No, 
sir. 

Q.  Are  any  instructions  given  to  the  men  on  the  wards?  A.  Not 
to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Is  there  any  fire  drill  of  the  employees?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Are  there  hose  on  the  wards?  I  believe  you  have  hose  on  the 
wards?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  are  they  kept?  A.  Just  hung  around  a  peg,  some  of 
them. 

0.  Kept  on  pegs  or  on  a  table  ?  A.  Kept  in  a  box  in  the  corridor. 

Q.  That  is  what  I  was  after  getting.  How  often  are  they  tested  ? 
A.  Well,  I  cannot  answer  that  question.  I  have  never  tested  them 
except  when  they  were  first  put  up.  It  did  not  fit.  The  joint  did  not 
fit  together. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  whether  they  would  work  now  or  not?  A. 
No,  I  have  not  tested  them. 

0.  Have  you  any  patent  chemical  extinguishers?  A.  They  have 
some  little  glass  bottles.  They  are  nothing  like  up  to  where  the  new 
ones  are. 

Q.  How  long  have  they  been  there?  A.  O,  I  suppose  twenty 
years. 


213 


Q.  You  have  never  tested  one  of  those,  have  you?  A.  No.  The 
intention  of  that  was  just  in  case  of  a  small  fire  to  throw  it  against 
the  wall  and  burst  it. 

Q.  Have  you  any  patent  fire  extinguishers,  these  big  fellows,  you 
stand  up  and  turn  up  and  turn  on  the  fire?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  chemical  extinguishers  of  any  sort?  A.  Two 
in  the  center  building. 

0.  Can  you  work  them?  A.  I  have  not  tried.  It  does  not  look 
like  it  would  would  work  now. 

Q.  What  are  their  condition  ?  A.  The  chemicals  have  oozed 
between  the  fittings  and  cannot  be  worked.  They  work  with  a  pump. 
I  have  not  tested  them. 

Q.  What  would  be  the  alarm  of  fire  here,  what  fire  alarm?  A. 
Some  of  the  fellows  would  holler  out  fire. 

Q.  That  is  the  only  definite  fire  alarm  you  have?  A.  On  the 
wards  ? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  There  is  no  arrangement  for  that  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  Is  there  any  telephone  communication,  any  method  of  com¬ 
munication  except  by  a  message  to  the  executive  building  or  to  the 
employees?  A.  Not  at  this  time. 

Q.  You  have  a  watchman,  have  you  not,  one  or  two  night  watch¬ 
men  ?  A.  In  the  male  department  ? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  I  have  two. 

Q.  What  time  do  they  go  on  duty?  A.  Well,  they  go  on  at  nine 
o’clock. 

Q.  Do  they  make  regular  rounds?  A.  They  are  supposed  to. 

Q.  You  mean  to  say  you  don’t  know?  A.  No,  I  don’t  know. 
They  are  supposed  to  make  the  rounds  every  hour. 

O.  Have  you  a  watchman’s  clock?  A.  We  have  a  clock. 

Q.  Is  it  in  operation?  A.  No. 

Q.  Why  not?  A.  That  is  a  question  I  cannot  answer. 

The  Chairman — Would  it  be  advisable  to  have  that  in  operation? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  can  then  know  whether  the  watchman  was  on  duty? 
A.  Tell  whether  he  made  the  rounds. 

O.  Have  you  reason  to  believe  they  do  not  perform  their  duty? 
A.  Well,  I  have  reports  coming  to  me  from  time  to  time  that  they 
have  been  asleep. 

Q.  Did  you  go  into  those  reports,  investigate  them?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  in  a  general  way,  I  did. 

0.  WTere  they  true  or  not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


214 


Q.  They  were  true?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  complain  of  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  To  whom?  A.  Dr.  Babcock. 

Q.  Was  anything  done  about  it?  A.  He  did  have  the  clock 
fixed  up  and  the  wires  fixed,  but  he  never  did  order  a  dial. 

0.  Was  there  improvement  as  far  as  those  particular  watchmen 
were  concerned  ?  A.  No. 

Mr.  Harrison — You  have  been  in  this  institution  for  quite  a  good 
many  years?  You  say  you  are  perfectly  familiar  with  this  wing  of 
the  building?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  am  familiar  with  it. 

Q.  And  you  know  it  necessarily  pretty  well?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  case  of  a  fire  beyond  control  in  this  building,  would  it  be 
possible  that  a  panic  among  the  patients  would  ensue?  A.  That 
would  depend  on  where  the  fire  occurred. 

Q.  I  understand,  but  a  fire  close  to  that,  beyond  control,  would 
they  fall  into  a  panic  or  not?  A.  That  is  going  back  to  an  opinion. 

Q.  That  is  what  I  am  asking  for?  A.  I  don’t  know.  We  have 
had  fires  here  and  did  not  have  any  panic. 

0.  You  did  not  have  any?  A.  No. 

Q.  You  had  one?  A.  And  the  patients  were  all  gotten  off  from 
this  wing  without  any  trouble  at  all,  but  the  Taylor  building  was 
unoccupied. 

Q.  There  were  no  patients  in  that  building?  Would  those  condi¬ 
tions  have  prevailed  if  there  had  been  patients  in  the  building?  A. 
They  might  not. 

Q.  In  case  of  a  fire  beyond  control,  say  this  first  ward  was  to  get 
on  fire  with  the  watchman  asleep,  the  first  floor,  and  a  fire  would 
break  out  pretty  generally  through  that  section  of  the  building, 
what  escape  and  what  means  of  escape  have  you  for  the  men  on 
the  upper  wards?  A.  Nothing  but  a  stairway,  and  a  stairway  on 
the  back  side. 

Q.  Does  that  come  through  the  first  ward?  A.  There  is  a  stair¬ 
way  out  of  the  first  ward,  and  there  is  one  in  the  sixth  ward,  and 
one  in  the  back. 

Q.  Does  the  stairway  go  through  the  first  ward  before  it  goes  out  ? 
A.  It  goes  down  through  the  first  ward. 

Q.  In  case  of  fire  that  would  be  untenable  ?  A.  But  you  could  go 
back  through  the  sixth. 

0.  There  is  an  exit  through  the  sixth,  is  there,  an  exit  this  way 
into  the  main  building?  A.  No.  The  doors  are  locked.  There  is 
a  stair  on  each  tier. 


215 


Q.  Is  it  at  the  end  of  these  tiers  or  at  the  middle?  A.  The  first 
section  here  is  on  the  end. 

Q.  Goes  from  the  fifth  to  the  sixth?  A.  Second  near  the  end. 

Q.  Then  from  the  seventh,  eighth,  ninth  and  tenth?  A.  In  the 
center. 

Q.  Then  the  probable  fire  protection  in  the  third  section  would 
be  better  than  the  probable  fire  protection  in  the  first  two  sections, 
you  think?  A.  That  would  depend  on  where  the  fire  occurred. 
Of  course,  if  the  fire  occurred  on  the  first  you  could  go  through  to 
the  fourth 

Q.  Would  your  nurses  do  it  with  the  patients  when  they  carry 
them  out?  What  is  the  plan  of  action  mapped  out,  M.  Mitchell? 
A.  There  is  no  plan. 

Q.  None  whatever?  A.  They  would  know  to  turn  them  out  in 
the  yard. 

0.  There  is  no  method  of  informing  them  when  the  fire  is  near 
in  what  direction  to  convey  the  patients,  no  plan  of  that  sort?  A. 
No  general  plan. 

Q.  Is  it  possible  that  a  fire  might  break  out,  presuming  that  the 
watchman  was  negligent  in  his  duty — is  possible  that  a  fire  might 
break  out  and  get  beyond  control  before  discovered?  A.  O,  yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Are  the  patients  in  this  institution  ever  bathed  more  than  one 
in  the  same  water?  A.  I  cannot  answer  that  question. 

0.  You  do  not  know  whether  they  are  or  not?  A.  I  don’t  know. 

Q.  About  what  is  your  water  supply  from  that  department,  in 
hot  water?  A.  You  mean  at  a  time? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  It  is  a  continuous  flow,  you  understand  from  the 
reservoir,  from  the  city  supply. 

Q.  I  am  speaking  of  hot  water?  A.  At  a  time? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  I  suppose  eighty  gallons  would  be  the  capacity. 

Q.  How  many  gallons  woidd  it  take  to  fill  a  tub?  A.  I  would 
say  thirty. 

Q.  Of  hot  water?  A.  Well,  that  would  depend  on  how  hot  the 
water  was.  You  mean  for  bath  purposes? 

Q.  Under  average  conditions?  A.  Sometimes  have  to  put  on 
the  hot  water  for  the  whole  bath.  If  the  water  is  real  hot  they 
mix  it  with  cold  water. 

Q.  Under  the  conditions  that  prevail  here?  A.  About  half  and 
half,  but  after  two  or  three  tubs  the  hot  water  is  exhausted. 


2l6 


Q.  How  much  will  a  tub  hold?  A.  A  tub  will  hold  I  guess  75 
gallons,  but  it  is  not  necessary  to  fill  it. 

Q.  Thirty  gallons  under  ordinary  conditions  would  be  enough? 
A.  Fifty  I  would  say. 

Q.  Fifty  gallons  of  boiling  water?  A.  Yes,  sir,  not  boiling,  but 
as  warm  as  we  usually  get  it  out  of  the  boiler. 

Q.  As  you  usually  get  it  out  of  the  boiler?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  will  take  about  fifteen  gallons  to  the  patient?  A.  I  am  just 
guessing  at  that.  I  have  never  measured  it. 

Q.  Now,  how  many  patients  have  you  ever  known  to  be  bathed  in 
the  same  water?  What  are  the  orders?  A.  The  instructions 
are  to  bathe  all  except  some  few  very  feeble  ones.  There  are  very 
few  too  feeble  to  bathe. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  necessary  to  bathe  those?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  Several  times  a  week?  A.  Two  or  three  times  a  day. 

Q.  I  believe  the  ordej-  has  been  issued  never  to  bathe  a  patient  in 
cold  water?  A.  Not  in  the  winter.  I  issued  that  order  myself. 

Q.  Is  it  possible  to  bathe  all  those  patients  in  warm  water?  A. 
Not  at  one  time. 

Q.  Not  on  one  day?  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  bathing  day?  A.  We  have  Tuesday  for  the 
top  floor,  Wednesday  for  the  second  floor,  and  Thursday  for  the 
bottom  floor.  We  have  it  done  by  sections  in  order  to  get  through 
with  it  at  all. 

0.  Have  you  enough  hot  water  to  bathe  all  the  patients  in,  one 
section  in  a  day?  A.  No. 

0.  If  you  don’t  bathe  some  of  them  two  in  the  same  water  what 
is  done?  A.  They  will  not  get  any  bath  at  all  unless  they  are 
bathed  in  cold  water.  They  have  to  bathe  certain  days  and  certain 
days  to  carry  the  clothes  to  the  laundry.  In  some  sections  the 
nurses  have  to  go  to  the  kitchen  on  the  day  that  the  washing  is 
done,  or  they  have  to  go  down  on  the  yard. 

Q.  You  say,  then,  it  is  either  necessary  to  bathe  several  in  the  same 
water  or  not  bathe  them?  A.  More  than  one. 

Q.  In  the  same  water?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  they  ever  have  a  patient  named - in  the  white  male 

department,  that  you  remember?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  Do  you  recollect  the  instance  when  -  was  assaulted? 

A.  I  remember  on  one  occasion  he  was  assaulted? 

Q.  Will  you  describe  that  just  as  nearly  as  possible  to  the  Com¬ 
mittee?  A. - was  on  the  second  ward  and  the  nurse  told 


217 


him  to  get  on  his  own  ward,  and  he  refused  to  do  it,  and  the  nurse 
tried  to  put  him  on  his  own  ward,  and  the  assault  succeeded.  T  here 
were  a  couple  of  nurses. 

Q.  Who  were  they?  A.  One  Wheeler  and  the  other  Johnson, 
and  Wheeler  threw  the  man  down  and  Johnson  assaulted  him. 

Q.  In  what  manner  did  he  assault  him?  A.  He  either  knocked 
him  or  stamped  him  in  the  face  with  his  shoe. 

Q.  How  did  you  find  out  that  that  was  the  case?  A.  A  patient 
reported  it  to  me. 

Q.  Did  you  examine  into  the  matter?  A.  I  did. 

Q.  Was - statement  true?  A.  It  was,  according  to  the 

nurse’s  statement.  He  corroborated  his  statement. 

Q.  Which  nurse?  A.  The  nurse  that  did  the  deed  was  Johnson. 

Q.  He  said  he  stamped  him  in  his  face?  A.  He  acknowledged  it. 

Q.  Did  you  report  that?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman — What  reason  or  excuse  did  he  give?  A.  He  said 
his  temper  got  the  best  of  him.  He  lost  his  temper. 

Q.  Did  you  report  that  to  Dr.  Thompson?  A.  I  did. 

Q.  What  action  did  he  take  in  the  matter?  A.  To  the  best  of  my 
recollection  Dr.  Thompson  was  going  away  the  next  day.  It  hap¬ 
pened  about  midday  and  I  reported  it  in  the  afternoon.  Doctor 
asked  me  to  remind  Dr.  Babcock  about  the  matter  the  next  morning 
when  he  went  through,  as  he  was  going  away,  and  that  he  would 
forget  it. 

Q.  Did  you  report  it  to  Dr.  Babcock?  A.  I  did. 

Q.  When  ?  A.  I  can’t  give  you  the  date. 

Q.  Relatively,  did  you  report  it  the  next  day  ?  A.  The  next  morn¬ 
ing  when  the  doctor  came  through. 

0.  He  came  through  ?  A.  And  made  the  rounds  for  Dr.  Thomp¬ 
son  in  his  absence. 

Q.  What  action  did  Dr.  Babcock  take?  A.  He  did  not  take  any. 

Q.  Did  he  examine  the  patient?  A.  No,  to  the  best  of  my  recol¬ 
lection  he  did  not. 

Q.  What  did  he  tell  you?  A.  He  told  me  to  dress  the  wound. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  anything  else  in  connection  with  it  at  all  ?  A. 
No,  that  is  all  I  remember. 

Q.  All  you  remember?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  was  the  patient  at  that  time?  A.  He  was  out  on  the 
second  ward  veranda. 

Q.  This  was  when  you  reported  the  matter  to  Dr.  Babcock?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 


218 


Q.  Did  he  go  out  and  look  at  him  ?  A.  He  did  not  then. 

Q.  How  about  these  nurses?  What  became  of  Wheeler?  A. 
Wheeler  resigned. 

Q.  Immediately?  A.  On  account  of  his  health. 

Q.  Immediately  following  this?  A.  No. 

Q.  Some  time  later?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  became  of  Johnson?  A.  Johnson  resigned. 

Q.  What  time?  A.  I  don’t  know.  That  has  been  some  time  ago. 
I  don’t  know  the  time. 

The  Chairman — How  long  after  the  occurrence  ?  A.  I  don’t  know, 
several  months. 

Mr.  Harrison — It  is  hard  to  fix  things  in  your  mind  like  that? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Mr.  Mitchell,  have  you  ever  been  to  the  dairy?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  there  while  the  milking  was  going  on? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  does  the  milking?  A.  The  milking  is  carried  on  now 
principally  bv  the  patients,  colored  patients. 

Q.  In  milking  the  cows  they  stood  in  the  stalls,  did  they  not?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  those  stalls  kept  reasonably  clean.  A.  Well,  I  don’t  know 
much  about  dairying. 

Q.  Does  it  seem  to  you  that  it  was  kept  as  clean  as  it  could  be 
under  the  circumstances?  A.  With  the  force  they  have  got. 

Q.  You  think  it  is  kept  about  as  clean?  A.  You  can’t  expect  to 
keep  things  clean  with  a  patient’s  work. 

Q.  In  the  alleyways  between  those,  I  believe  there  is  a  concrete 
cement  opening  between  each  of  those  stalls?  Is  there  not  a  floor, 
a  cement  floor,  and  the  cows  stand  back  to  back  at  all  times?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  is  quite  a  wide  expanse,  almost  as  wide  as  this?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  pretty  wide.  I  don’t  know  the  width. 

Q.  Was  it  kept  clean  ?  A.  It  was  fairly  clean.  It  had  been  swept 
ofif  and  sanded,  in  fairly  good  condition. 

Q.  As  to  the  actual  milking,  you  say  you  saw  that  done,  did  you 
not?  A.  Yes,  I  have  been  there  when  they  were  milking. 

Q.  Do  they  wash  the  udders  of  the  cows  before  they  milk  them? 
A.  I  did  not  see  them  start.  That  would  be  done  at  the  beginning. 
0.  You  did  not  see  it  done?  A.  No. 

0.  Did  the  patients  wash  their  hands  before  they  milked  the  cows  ? 
A.  I  would  not  answer  that  question. 


219 


Q.  You  did  not  see  them  do  it?  A.  No. 

Q.  How  about  those  patients’  dress  that  did  the  milking,  was 
it  clean  or  unclean?  A.  Well,  the  clothes  were  fairly  clean,  con¬ 
sidering  that  they  were  colored  patients. 

Q.  You  have  stated  that  the  milking  was  done  by  patients,  have 
you  not?  A.  The  principal  part  of  it,  maybe  one  or  two  hired  men. 
The  gateman  is  hired  and  I  think  he  helps  to  milk,  and  the  man 
who  fires  the  engine,  but  the  principal  work  is  done  by  the  patients. 

Q.  Are  they  dressed  up  in  any  different  clothes  from  what  they 
wear  around  the  place  every  day?  A.  No. 

Q.  The  same  clothing  that  they  wear?  A.  Practically  speaking, 
it  takes  them  all  the  time  over  at  the  dairy. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  change  of  clothes  provided  for  them 
while  they  are  actually  engaged  in  handling  the  milk  at  the  dairy? 
A.  Not  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  What  duties  besides  the  actual  milking  do  they  perform  ?  Do 
they  handle  the  manure?  A.  I  think  they  have  hands  for  feeding, 
hands  for  milking,  and  some  for  handling  the  manure. 

Q.  Do  they  have  separate  men  ?  A.  I  have  been  told  so. 

Q.  That  is  the  policy?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Special  men  to  handle  the  ensilage,  the  manure  and  the  milk? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And,  therefore,  the  patient  that  did  the  milking  would  not  be 
in  a  soiled  condition?  A.  Well,  the  clothing  would  not.  Patients 
are  like  children.  Today  you  can  make  them  change  and  tomorrow 
they  are  all  soiled  up,  and  that  is  the  way  with  these  colored  patients. 
You  make  them  change  today,  and  tomorrow  his  clothes  may  be 
soiled.  They  did  not  take  care  of  their  clothes.  They  are  more 
like  children  than  anybody  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  They  are  liable  to  become  filthy?  A.  Yes,  sir,  if  they  are  not 
changed  every  day. 

Q.  Then  you  would  have  to  watch  them  pretty  closely?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  I  guess  you  would. 

Adjourned  until  tomorrow  at  io  o’clock. 


V 


220 


Columbia,  S.  C.,  7  May,  1909. 

Pursuant  to  adjournment  the  Commission  met  this  day  at  the 
State  Hospital  for  the  Insane  at  10  o’clock  in  the  forenoon. 

Present :  The  members  of  the  Commission. 

The  Chairman  presiding. 

Mr.  Mitchell,  recalled : 

Mr.  Harrison — I  wanted  to  ask  you  a  few  questions  about  the 
fire  in  the  Taylor  building.  You  said  the  Taylor  building  was 
burned?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  it  occupied  at  the  time?  A.  It  was  not. 

Q.  At  what  time  was  it  built?  A.  You  mean  what  time  finished? 

Q.  Yes,  sir,  completed.  A.  Well,  I  don't  remember  exactly.  It 
was  some  time  about  April  or  May. 

Q.  April  or  May?  A.  Yes,  sir,  that  building  was  completed  about 
April  or  May. 

Q.  What  time  was  it  occupied?  A.  Well,  it  was  not  occupied 
until  after  it  was  burned  and  rebuilt. 

Q.  What  time  wras  it  burned?  What  time  of  the  year?  A.  It 
was  burned  some  time  after  Christmas,  either  January  or  February. 

Q.  The  following  January  or  February?  A.  After  it  was  com¬ 
pleted  in  the  spring. 

Q.  Why  was  it  not  occupied  in  the  interval?  A.  I  cannot  answer 
that  question. 

Q.  When  it  was  burned,  how  did  it  catch  on  fire,  how  did  it  origi¬ 
nate?  A.  That  is  unknown  so  far  as  I  know. 

Q.  Was  there  any  suspicion  as  to  the  cause?  A.  There  were 
some  theories,  but  I  do  not  know.  My  idea  was  that  it  caught  from 
the  furnace. 

Q.  In  the  Taylor  building?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  it  in  operation?  A.  Yes,  sir,  there  was  fire  in  the  build¬ 
ing. 

Q.  Why  was  it  in  operation  with  the  building  unoccupied,  Mr. 
Mitchell?  A.  That  is  something  I  had  never  thought  about.  I 
cannot  answer  that  question. 

Q.  Was  the  building  gutted?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  If  there  had  been  inmates  in  the  building  and  they  had  not 
been  removed,  would  they  have  been  burned?  A.  O,  yes,  if  they 
had  not  been  gotten  out. 

Q.  How  far  was  the  fire  under  way  before  it  was  discovered, 


221 


Mr.  Mitchell?  A.  It  must  have  had  a  considerable  start,  because 
the  night  watchman  detected  it. 

Q.  The  night  watchman  detected  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Mr.  Mitchell,  was  it  the  duty  of  the  night  watchman  to  go 
into  that  building?  A.  Well,  I  don’t  remember  about  that,  Mr. 
Harrison.  I  don’t  remember.  I  cannot  answer  that  question. 

Q.  Have  you  an  outside  watchman  here?  A.  We  have  at  this 
time,  yes. 

Q.  Did  you  have  one  at  that  time?  A.  The  gateman  makes  the 
rounds. 

Q.  He  makes  the  rounds?  A.  Yes,  sir.  He  goes  through  the 
basement.  The  gateman  was  on  duty  at  that  time,  yes,  sir.  They 
have  a  night  watchman  at  the  front  gate. 

Q.  Does  he  stay  on  duty  only  at  night  ?  A.  Only  at  night.  They 
have  a  watchman  at  the  front  gate  in  the  day  time,  and  change  at 
nine  o’clock  at  night. 

Q.  Have  you  any  means  of  knowing  that  that  man  makes  his 
rounds  ?  A.  Not  at  present. 

Q.  Not  at  present?  A.  No. 

Q.  How  long  since  you  had  means  of  knowing  that  he  made  his 
rounds?  A.  Several  years.  I  don’t  know.  I  would  say  eight  or 
ten  years. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  he  is  always  faithful  on  duty  or  not, 
Mr.  Mitchell?  A.  He  is  on  duty,  but  whether  he  always  makes  his 
rounds  or  not  I  don’t  know. 

Dr.  Sawyer — You  don’t  know  whether  he  was  asleep  or  not?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Mr.  Bates — Mr.  Mitchell,  did  you  ever  assist  in  giving  nourish¬ 
ment  by  a  tube?  A.  O,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  any  instance  of  injury  to  a  patient  from  the 
effects  of  it  ?  A.  No,  not  when  I  assisted.  You  mean  to  say  of  my 
own  present  knowledge? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  never  assisted?  A.  No  bad  results  from  any. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  know  of  a  patient  dying  from  the  effects  of  it  in 
.the  institution?  A.  I  have  heard  of  it. 

Q.  You  have  heard  of  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  ago  has  that  been?  A.  Well,  I  could  not  say.  It 
has  been  within  the  last  two  years,  I  should  say. 

Q.  Within  the  last  two  years?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  name  ?  A.  I  cannot  remember  the 


222 


name.  Dr.  Thompson  can  give  you  that  information.  He  tubed 
the  patient  himself.  That  is  hearsay,  now. 

Q.  Tell  what  Dr.  Thompson  told  you?  A.  The  patient  did  not 
live  very  long  after  he  tubed  it.  He  did  not  say  that  was  the  direct 
cause  though,  but  the  patient  was  very  feeble  when  he  tubed  him. 
He  had  been  refusing  food. 

Mr.  Hardin — You  testified,  Mr.  Mitchell,  that  meals  were  served 
patients  in  an  enema?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  For  instance,  food  was  passed  by  the  bowels?  A.  The  question 
was  put  to  me  if  I  was  on  that  ward,  and  I  said  I  supposed  I  was. 

Q.  Are  you  not  superintendent  of  the  wards?  A.  I  am,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  make  any  effort  to  correct  that?  A.  I  did  not  know 
anything  about  it  in  this  particular  case,  but  I  have  made  efforts  to 
correct  things,  and  I  have  failed. 

Q.  In  this  particular  instance  did  you  try  to  correct  that?  It 
was  under  your  supervision,  wasn’t  it  your  duty  to  see  that  it  was 
stopped?  A.  Yes,  I  suppose  it  was. 

Q.  Did  you  do  it?  A.  No. 

Mr.  Sawyer — Mr.  Mitchell,  is  not  it  the  usual  custom  to  feed 
patients  when  they  have  a  form  of  paralysis  of  the  throat  with 
these  tubes  ?  A.  A  form  of  paralysis  ? 

Q.  Isn’t  it  customary  in  hospitals  of  this  kind  and  other  kinds 
to  feed  patients — ?  A.  O,  yes,  it  is  customary. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  had  any  practical  experience  in  feeding  them 
that  way?  A.  O,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  see  how  it  could  hurt  a  patient?  A.  You  should 
exercise  a  great  deal  of  care  in  inserting  the  tube. 

Q.  You  certainly  would  have  to  be  very  violent  and  very  rough 
to  do  a  patient  sufficient  harm  to  kill  him?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  would 
think  so. 

Q.  To  your  knowledge  it  is  the  custom  to  feed  patients  with 
a  tube  both  in  this  class  of  institutions  and  in  hospitals  where  the 
condition  demands  it?  A.  It  has  always  been  customary  ever  since 
I  have  been  here,  sir. 

Mr.  Carey — Mr.  Mitchell,  I  understand  that  you  have  charge  of 
the  pharmacy  and  are  supervisor  over  the  male  white  wards?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  the  extent  of  your  authority?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  no  authority  over  the  kitchen?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Nor  the  dairy?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Nor  anything  else  except  those  two  things?  A.  No,  sir. 


223 


Q.  Has  anything  ever  gone  wrong  in  the  pharmacy  department, 
or  have  you  made  mistakes  in  filling  prescriptions?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I 
have  made  mistakes. 

Q.  What  was  the  cause  of  it?  A.  if  might  have  been  my  care¬ 
lessness,  and  it  might  have  been  that  I  was  interrupted.  I  could  not 
tell.  That  is  something  that  I  could  not  answer. 

Q.  You  are  a  practical  pharmacist?  A.  Not  a  graduate;  I  have 
taken  lectures. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  asked  for  any  prescription  in  here  that  you 
did  not  get?  A.  Ask  for  any  prescriptions? 

Q.  Anything  more  than  is  in  there  in  the  way  of  a  proper  place  to 
prepare  your  prescriptions?  A.  No.  I  have  never  made  any  sug¬ 
gestions. 

Q.  Haven’t  you  got  all  you  asked  for?  A.  With  the  exception 
of  one  time.  I  did  not  have  a  room,  and  I  thought  I  ought  to  have 
that  as  I  had  previously  had  it. 

0.  Have  you  ever  made  a  mistake  in  combining  a  prescription 
that  carried  any  bad  results  to  any  patient?  A.  Not  to  my  knowl¬ 
edge. 

Q.  Since  you  have  been  in  there?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  careful  not  to  mistake  such  mistakes?  A.  I  try  to 
be  careful. 

Q.  Who  sends  these  prescriptions  to  your  department?  A.  They 
are  sent. 

Q.  The  doctors  of  the  different  departments?  A.  Yes,  sir.  They 
write  up  the  prescriptions  in  a  short  way  and  send  in  the  books  in 
the  medical  baskets. 

Q.  And  you  fill  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  supervisor,  isn’t  it  your  duty  to  see  that  those  wards  are 
kept  clean?  A.  Of  course  it  is  my  duty,  but  as  I  stated  yesterday, 
as  Senator  Bates  said  just  now,  it  is  my  duty,  but  I  can’t  be  there. 
I  know  that  the  thing  exists. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  your  duty  as  supervisor  of  those  wards  to  see  that 
they  are  kept  clean  ?  A.  It  is.  That  is  my  duty. 

Q.  You  have  authority  to  require  that?  A.  I  have  authority  to 
require  that. 

Q.  The  nurses  have  to  obey  you?  A.  They  don’t  always  do  it. 

Q.  If  they  do  not,  what  is  your  plain  duty?  A.  To  report  them. 

Q.  Do  you?  A.  I  do. 

Q.  How  many?  A.  I  have  reported  several.  I  never  keep  any 
talley. 


224 


Q.  Give  us  the  names  of  any  you  did  report?  A.  I  can. 

Q.  Who?  A.  J.  K.  Sims  is  one  man  I  reported  because  he 
refused  to  obey  orders.  « 

Q.  Who  did  you  report  him  to?  A.  Dr.  Babcock. 

Q.  When  was  that?  A.  I  can't  give  the  dates. 

Q.  About  how  long  ago?  A.  I  would  say  it  has  been  less  than 
five  years. 

Q.  What  became  of  the  case?  A.  The  man  left  here. 

Q.  How  long  after  that  before  he  left  here?  A.  I  did  not  keep 
any  note  of  it. 

Q.  About  ?  A.  He  was  not  discharged. 

Q.  How  long  did  he  stay?  A.  He  staid  some  time  afterwards. 

Q.  Why  did  he  leave  ?  A.  Because  he  wanted  to,  I  suppose. 

Q.  Did  you  ask  that  he  be  discharged?  A.  No,  I  did  not.  I 
never  asked  him  to  discharge  a  man  since  I  have  been  here. 

Q.  Who  else  did  you  report?  A.  As  I  said  I  have  reported 
several.  Some  have  been  discharged  and  some  have  not  been  dis¬ 
charged. 

Q.  Give  us  the  names  of  some  you  reported.  Didn’t  you  think  it 
would  be  just  to  Dr.  Babcock  and  Dr.  Thompson?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I 
was  just  studying.  Shuler  was  another  man  I  reported. 

Q.  Who  did  you  make  your  report  to?  A.  Dr.  Babcock. 

Q.  When  ?  A.  It  has  been  less  than  ten  years ;  some  time  ago. 

0.  What  did  you  report  him  for?  A.  I  reported  him  for  talk¬ 
ing  insultingly  to  me,  and  refusing  to  do  what  I  told  him  to  do. 

Q.  What  became  of  that  case?  A.  My  recollection  is  that  Shuler 
quit. 

0.  At  that  time?  A.  No,  not  at  that  time. 

Q.  How  long  after?  A.  It  was  some  time  afterwards. 

Q.  How  long  afterwards?  A.  I  could  not  tell  you  that.  I  don’t 
remember.  I  did  not  take  any  note  of  anything,  and  it  is  impossi¬ 
ble  for  me  to  give  the  dates. 

Q.  You  have  gone  ahead  in  your  general  statements  and  made 
grave  charges  against  others  in  the  institution  with  you,  and  I 
want  you  to  bring  out  specific  instances  so  that  they  can  explain 
them  if  they  can.  If  you  can’t  give  the  names  of  all,  all  I  ask  is 
for  you  to  say  if  you  can  give  them?  A.  Shuler  and  Petrie  and 
Simpson  are  the  men  I  reported  to  the  doctor. 

Q.  When  did  you  report  Simpson  ?  A.  It  has  been  less  than  five 
years  since  I  reported  him. 


225 


Q.  Who  did  you  report  him  to?  A.  1  just  said  I  reported  him 
to  Dr.  Babcock. 

Q.  I  understood  Shuler?  A.  And  Simpson. 

Q.  Shuler  at  the  same  time?  A.  No.  These  things  happened  at 
different  times. 

Q.  What  became  of  Simpson  ?  A.  Simpson  left  the  institution. 
I  don’t  know  what  became  of  him. 

Q.  How  long  after  that  ?  A.  I  don’t  know. 

Q.  Was  he  discharged,  or  did  he  leave  of  his  own  accord?  A. 
Of  his  own  accord. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  make  any  other  reports?  A.  Other  than  those 
three? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  Nurses  who  disobeyed  orders? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  I  don’t  remember  of  any  just  now. 

Q.  No  others  except  those  three?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  make  any  report  to  Dr.  Babcock  as  to  the  cook 
in  the  kitchen  being  incompetent?  A.  No,  that  was  not  my  business. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  make  any  report  to  him  that  the  food  that  came 
into  the  wards  was  not  well  cooked  ?  A.  I  made  reports  to  that  effect 
to  Dr.  Thompson. 

Q.  How  frequently  did  you  make  them  to  Dr.  Thompson  ?  A. 
I  made  them  pretty  frequently. 

Q.  About  how  often  ?  A.  Whenever  the  circumstances 
requried  it. 

Q.  What  would  Dr.  Thompson  do?  A.  I  can’t  answer  that 
question. 

Q.  Did  he  pay  any  attention  to  your  reports?  A.  Well,  he  would 
listen  to  it. 

Q.  Did  he  say  he  would  do  anything  to  correct  it?  A.  I  don’t 
remember  as  to  that. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  make  a  report  either  to  Dr.  Thompson  or  to  Dr. 
Babcock  that  they  refused  to  look  into  and  remedy  if  they  could? 
A.  That  is  more  giving  of  opinions. 

Q.  I  don’t  think  so.  You  know  what  happened  when  you  went 
to  the  men  ?  A.  That  places  me  in  a  very  awkward  condition. 

Q.  I  don’t  think  it  places  you  in  any  more  than  you  are.  You 
have  testified  in  a  general  way,  and  I  am  asking  specifically.  If 
there  is  any  want  of  harmony  between  you  and  these  men  we  want 
to  know  it.  A.  I  reported  these  things  to  Dr.  Thompson  because 
it  is  more  convenient.  I  am  with  him  more.  Dr.  Babcock  is  more 
or  less  in  another  department. 


15— A. 


226 


Q.  What  was  Dr.  Thompson’s  custom  when  you  reported  these 
things?  A.  He  would  try  to  look  into  it.  He  has  gone  to  the 
kitchen  from  time  to  time.  I  did  not  follow  the  matter  up.  I  don’t 
know  whether  he  went  to  Dr.  Babcock  about  these  things. 

Q.  You  never  told  us  what  you  said  to  him  and  he  to  you?  A.  Is 
that  what  you  are  after? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  I  did  not  understand  your  question.  Dr.  Thompson 
told  me  he  had  tried  to  remedy  the  matter  and  could  not  do  it. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  make  a  report  that  he  did  not  try  to  remedy? 
A.  That  he  did  not  try  to  remedy? 

Q.  That  he  did  not  tell  you  he  would  try  to  remedy?  A.  He  did 
not  tell  me  he  would  not  try.  I  don’t  remember  about  that. 

Q.  Yours  and  Dr.  Thompson’s  relations  were  entirely  pleasant, 
were  they  not?  A.  Yes,  as  far  as  I  remember. 

Q.  I  understood  you  to  say  yesterday  or  this  morning  that  you 
go  through  the  wards  with  him?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  go  through  the 
wards  with  him  every  morning. 

Q.  You  observe  everything  that  he  would  observe?  A.  I  am 
not  right  by  his  side  all  the  time.  He  might  see  things  I  did  not. 

Q.  If  you  saw  anything  wrong  would  you  point  it  out  to  him? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  would  he  do?  A.  I  have  made  reports  and  did  not  hear 
anything  about  it. 

Q.  If.  you  saw  they  continued  you  would  make  further  complaint, 
would  you  not,  if  you  saw  things  going  wrong?  A.  Yes,  I  continued 
to  complain.  If  you  complain  about  anything  for  a  number  of 
times  and  there  is  no  change,  of  course,  you  get  careless  about  it. 

Q.  You  admit  carelessness  on  your  part?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  do.  I 
am  obliged  to  do  it. 

Q.  You  have  described  the  conditions  in  the  white  wards.  Where 
in  your  judgment  does  the  blame  lie  for  the  bad  condition  of  things 
you  have  described?  A.  The  cause  of  it  is  the  shortness  of  nurses 
and  the  want  of  discipline. 

Q.  Did  you  regard  any  of  you,  any  of  the  authorities, 
as  guilty  of  negligence,  as  being  the  cause  of  the  want  of  sufficient 
help?  A.  I  will  have  to  take  a  part  of  that  on  myself.  I  have  tried  to 
better  things,  and  I  could  not  do  it  because  I  did  not  have  the  help. 

Q.  Was  that  the  primary  cause — the  shortness  of  help?  A.  I 
said  I  thought  it  was  and  the  want  of  discipline. 

Q.  How  much  more  help  do  you  think  you  ought  to  have  than 
you  have  got  in  there?  A.  That  is  an  opinion  again. 


227 


Q.  You  are  an  expert.  We  will  take  your  opinion.  We  want 
you  to  tell  us  how  we  can  better  the  conditions,  how  many  nurses 
do  you  think  there  ought  to  be?  A.  We  have  formerly  had  21  here. 

Q.  I  understood  you  to  say  you  had  about  fifteen  ?  A.  About  that, 
more  or  less. 

Q.  How  many  do  you  think  you  ought  to  have  to  keep  it  fairly 
neat?  A.  I  could  keep  it  in  very  fair  condition  with  20. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  you  could  do  it  with  less?  A.  No,  we  can’t 
do  it. 

Q.  The  character  of  your  patients  and  the  number  of  them  would 
require  24?  A.  I  think  so. 

Q.  Have  you  any  nurse  in  there  you  think  ought  to  be  discharged  ? 
A.  We  have  some  there  that  are  not  competent. 

Q.  Who  are  they?  A.  We  went  over  that  question,  didn’t  we? 

Q.  No,  sir,  not  a  name  given?  A.  They  are  incompetent.  You 
mean  those? 

Q.  Yes,  sir.  A.  I  gave  the  names  of  some  who  could  not  read  and 
write,  sir. 

Q.  Give  them  again?  A.  If  you  require  it  I  will  give  them.  I 
don’t  want  to  be  obstinate. 

Q.  Is  there  anybody  in  there  that  you  think  ought  to  be  out? 
A.  Mr.  John  Abbott  and  Mr.  C.  G.  Brown,  and  Mr.  Baxter.  He  is 
an  unfortunate  man. 

Q.  Any  other  that  you  can  think  of?  A.  Yes,  Owen  Able.  He  is 
incompetent. 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  the  names  of  any  others?  A.  That  is  all  I 
can  think  of  now. 

Q.  Why  do  you  think  they  ought  not  to  be  in  here?  Why  are 
they  incompetent?  A.  Mr.  Abbott  is  the  dining  room  man.  He 
is  not  fit  for  ward  duty.  He  will  do  very  wrell. 

Q.  Why?  A.  He  can't  read  and  write,  and  he  cannot  carry  on 
the  work  as  it  should  be  done,  and  he  cannot  make  out  his  morning 
report,  or  give  the  medicines.  He  does  not  even  know  how  to  read 
the  medicine  glass. 

Q.  How  about  the  others?  A.  Baxter  is  incompetent.  His 
judgment  is  weak. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  complained  to  any  of  the  authorities  about 
these  men  that  are  incompetent?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who?  A.  I  complained  to  Dr.  Babcock  when  he  hired  Mr. 
Baxter. 


228 


Q.  How  long  has  that  been  ?  A.  I  don’t  remember.  The  records 
will  show  that. 

Q.  Did  you  complain  of  any  of  the  other  three?  A.  I  have  com¬ 
plained  to  Dr.  Thompson  and  Dr.  Babcock  too. 

Q.  As  to  whom?  A.  Able. 

Q.  And  the  others?  A.  The  other  man,  I  complained  of  him  in 
this  way.  They  both  knew  it.  Both  were  acquainted  with  the 
circumstances.  Last  fall  when  they  started  up  the  courses,  Mr. 
Brown  said  he  didn’t  care  to  take  the  course,  and  I  said,  why,  and 
he  said  he  could  not  write.  He  could  scarcely  read  and  write  and 
if  they  forced  it  on  him  he  would  quit. 

Q.  Are  there  any  attendants  in  there  that  ought  to  be  discharged 
by  reason  of  cruelty  to  patients?  Have  you  anybody  here  now  that 
indulges  in  the  mistreatment  of  patients?  A.  Not  to  my  knowledge 
in  the  service  now. 

Q.  When  that  has  occurred  in  the  past,  were  they  discharged? 
A.  Some  of  them. 

Q.  The  cases  were  always  looked  into  after  the  charge  was  made 
to  Dr.  Thompson  ?  A.  As  a  general  thing. 

Q.  If  Dr.  Thompson  found  that  they  were  in  the  wrong,  what 
was  done?  A.  They  were  dismissed. 

Q.  If  he  found  the  charge  well  founded,  Dr.  Thompson  reported 
that  he  had  been  dismissed?  A.  That  was  the  custom. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  known  Dr.  Thompson  to  report  a  case  that 
was  not  discharged  since  you  have  been  here,  to  recommend  a 
discharge  that  was  not  adopted?  A.  Doctor  told  me  that  he  did 
recommend  a  discharge.  You  can  get  that  from  his  testimony. 

Q.  That  was  not  for  cruelty?  A.  No,  sir,  incompetence. 

Q.  Don't  you  think  you  could  have  gotten  the  bugs  out  of  there 
by  a  heroic  effort?  A.  We  could  have  got  shed  of  the  bugs  by 
neglecting  something  else. 

Q.  What  do  you  assign  as  the  reason  for  allowing  bugs  in  here, 
want  of  help?  A.  Want  of  help.  Many  a  time  the  nurses  have  to 
go  upon  the  yard. 

Q.  I  want  the  causes.  I  want  to  help  those  people,  and  we  want 
to  know  how  to  help  them?  A.  I  want  to  give  you  to  the  best  of 
my  knowledge.  It  is  a  big  thing,  going  into  this  thing. 

Q.  With  those  twenty-four  nurses,  do  you  think  that  you  could 
put  those  wards  and  keep  them  in  practically  a  good  condition,  in  as 
good  condition  as  the  female  wards  over  here?  A.  I  don’t  know 
that  I  could,  because  men  have  not  the  tact  for  housekeeping  that 


229 


women  have.  I  have  never  seen  the  male  department  in  as  good 
condition  as  the  female  since  I  have  been  here. 

Q.  You  could  approximately?  A.  Could  compare  with  them. 

Q.  The  floor  and  the  walls  could  be  kept  clean?  A.  Yes,  sir,  the 
floor  and  the  walls  could  be  kept  cleaner  than  they  are. 

Q.  Who  is  at  fault?  Is  it  the  Legislature’s  or  your  own?  A.  I 
will  leave  you  to  decide  that. 

Q.  Probably  you  can  tell  us  something  about  the  means.  You 
know  something  about  the  means.  You  have  been  on  these  wards. 
You  have  servants  that  ought  to  keep  things  clean?  A.  I  have  no 
servants  at  all. 

Q.  The  ward  has  them?  A.  Yes,  sir.  We  have  no  servants. 
We  have  nothing  but  the  nurses. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  the  nurses  are  paid?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much?  A.  $26  to  $31. 

Q.  Dollars?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  A  month?  A.  Yes,  sir,  approximately. 

Q.  Has  there  been  a  raise  in  the  pay  during  the  last  few  years? 
A.  Yes,  sir.  There  have  been  some  two  or  three  raises. 

Q.  You  had  difficulty  in  getting  suitable  nurses?  A.  I  am  not 
in  position  to  answer  that  question.  I  don’t  do  any  hiring  whatever. 

Q.  You  know  something  about  labor  conditions  around  Columbia? 
A.  I  don’t  know  very  much  about  that. 

Q.  It  is  an  unpleasant  matter  to  handle  insane  people  as  a  nurse? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  it  requires  men  of  peculiar  fitness?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Don’t  you  find  that  a  great  many  that  you  do  find  are  not 
fitted  for  the  work,  and  do  not  remain?  A.  Yes,  sir,  they  come 
and  go. 

Q.  It  is  hard  to  keep  the  nurses  and  especially  the  kind  you  want  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  suggestions  to  make  of  your  own  account  by 
which  the  condition  of  these  people  can  be  bettered?  What  do  you 
need?  That  has  not  been  touched  upon.  What  do  you  need  that  you 
haven’t  got?  A.  We  need  more  help. 

Q.  That  is  the  main  thing?  A.  We  ought  to  have  scrubbers  on 
our  side  just  as  they  have  on  the  female  side. 

Q.  Would  that  come  in  the  24?  A.  That  would  be  in  addition. 

Q.  How  many  scrubbers?  A.  We  could  make  out  with  two 
scrubbers. 


230 


Q.  You  think  you  ought  to  have  two  scrubbers  in  addition  to  the 
24  nurses?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Can't  you  whitewash  the  walls?  Haven’t  you  help  for  that? 
A.  Not  at  present.  If  we  whitewash  the  walls,  something  else 
would  be  neglected. 

Q.  How  long  since  the  walls  were  whitewashed?  A.  It  has 
been  several  years.  I  don’t  remember. 

Q.  Is  the  reason  it  has  not  been  done  the  want  of  help  to  do  it? 
A.  Yes,  sir.  I  wanted  to  have  the  wards  whitewashed  about  six 
years  ago,  and  Dr.  Thompson  told  me  to  wait  until  we  could  get  the 
plastering  done.  The  plastering  had  fallen  off  in  places  and  he 
told  me  to  wait  until  we  could  get  the  plastering  done  and  then  we 
could  whitewash.  It  was  customary  to  do  the  whitewashing  in  the 
spring,  and  it  was  left  off  from  time  to  time  and  it  was  never  done. 

Q.  You  haven’t  as  many  beds  as  you  need,  bedsteads?  A.  No, 
we  have  not. 

Q.  You  need  more?  A.  Yes*  sir. 

Q.  How  many  more  do  you  need?  A.  Well,  I  don’t  know.  I 
haven’t  counted  them. 

Q.  Bed  covering?  A.  We  have  plenty. 

Q.  Have  you  mattresses  enough?  A.  Yes,  sir,  we  have  a  supply 
of  mattresses. 

Q.  Is  the  laundry  work  satisfactory  to  the  patients,  the  washing 
when  it  comes  in  ?  A.  Sometimes  it  comes  in  pretty  bad. 

Q.  What  is  the  cause  of  that  ?  A.  The  laundry  is  operated  prin¬ 
cipally  or  in  a  large  measure  by  the  patients,  and  from  time  to  time 
the  laundering  is  not  very  good. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  make  complaint  about  the  clothes  of  those  in 
your  wards  about  the  washing?  A.  I  have  complained  of  the 
laundry,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  complain  to  Dr.  Thompson  or  Dr.  Babcock?  A. 
I  have  talked  with  Dr.  Thompson.  I  don’t  know  that  I  ever  men¬ 
tioned  it  to  Dr.  Babcock. 

Q.  Complained  that  part  of  it  was  unsatisfactory?  A.  Yes,  sir, 
so  far  as  I  know.  Of  course,  there  will  be  things  coming  in  that 
could  be  better,  but  as  a  general  thing  it  is  satisfactory. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  complain  that  the  cook  was  incompetent?  A. 
Not  to  my  recollection. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  complain  that  the  server  in  the  mess  hall  was 
incompetent?  A.  I  did. 


231 


Q.  To  whom?  A.  Well;  I  complained  to  Dr.  Thompson.  I  have 
asked  him  three  times  to  let  me  have  that  man  back. 

Q.  To  let  you  have  him  back?  A.  To  let  me  have  him  back,  to 
send  this  man  on  the  wards  again. 

Q.  Is  a  capable  man  in  charge  of  the  mess?  A.  Baxter  is  in 
charge  of  it.  Abbott  was  formerly  there.  Mr.  Abbott  was  the  man 
I  told  you  could  not  read. 

Q.  The  man  in  charge  of  the  mess  hall  now,  is  he  incompetent? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  reported  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  To  whom?  A.  Well,  this  man  that  is  in  charge  of  the  mess 
hall  was  formerly  employed  here  and  he  left  the  institution  and  he 
reapplied  for  work.  Dr.  Thompson  sent  for  me  and  asked  me  about 
this  man,  and  I  told  him.  I  says,  “That  man  was  not  any  account 
when  he  was  here  before,”  but  he  hired  him,  and  I  had  to  make  out 
with  him. 

Q.  What  does  his  incompetence  consist  of  in  the  mess  hall  ?  A. 
The  man  hasn’t  got  any  judgment. 

Q.  He  has  judgment  enough  to  serve  the  meals?  A.  Judgment 
enough  to  sit  down  and  let  it  be  done,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  that  his  work?  A.  No,  sir,  it  is  not  his  work. 

Q.  What  is  it?  A.  To  see  that  the  dishes  are  clean,  the  tables 
and  the  floor  clean,  that  is,  everything  clean. 

Q.  You  say  he  does  not  do  that?  A.  Yes,  sir,  he  doesn’t  do  it 
properly. 

Q.  He  is  under  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Why  don’t  you  make  him  do  it?  A.  How  can  you  make  a 
man  do  it  when  you  have  no  authority  to  do  it? 

Q.  What  would  he  say  when  you  would  tell  him?  A.  He  is  a 
man  that  does  not  say  very  much  of  anything. 

Q.  Did  he  refuse?  A.  He  did  not  refuse. 

Q.  He  just  did  not  do  it?  A.  Just  go  and  neglect  it.  He  would 
do  it  in  a  way. 

Q.  Did  you  make  complaint  to  Dr.  Thompson  that  he  was  doing 
that?  A.  I  made  complaint  to  Dr.  Thompson  that  he  was  not 
satisfactory. 

0.  \\  hat  did  the  doctor  sav  was  the  matter  ?  A.  Dr.  Thompson  ? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  He  would  not  do  anything  in  it.  He  said  he  would 
not  be  here  so  very  long. 

Q.  How  long  would  he  say?  A.  Not  over  two  months. 

Q.  You  have  no  authority  over  the  dairy?  A.  No,  sir. 


232 


Q.  You  stated  yesterday  that  you  went  out  there  and  saw  it?  A. 
I  was  passing  along. 

Q.  Have  you  seen  that  done  frequently?  A.  Which  is  that? 

Q.  Milking.  A.  No,  not  frequently,  but  I  have  occasionally  been 
in  the  dairy. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  the  patients  who  are  doing  that  milking 
are  fit  to  do  it?  A.  The  parties  haven’t  very  much  sense. 

Q.  Are  they  clean  or  filthy?  A.  The  milkers? 

Q.  Yes.  Is  your  knowledge  sufficient  to  enable  you  to  testify? 
A.  As  I  said  yesterday,  1  know  very  little  about  dairy  work.  That 
is  out  of  my  line. 

Q.  I  have  confined  my  questions  to  your  line  for  that  reason, 
but  you  said  you  saw  it?  A.  I  also  stated  that  I  knew  very  little 
about  dairy  work,  too. 

Q.  Have  you  any  suggestions  to  offer  as  to  what  you  saw  going 
on?  A.  The  dress  could  be  changed.  Their  clothing  could  be 
changed  oftener. 

Q.  Their  clothing?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Haven’t  those  you  saw  milking  there  sense  enought  to  milk 
now?  A.  Their  hired  help? 

Q.  That  would  be  better,  of  course?  A.  I  think  the  work  is 
carried  on  fairly  well  with  the  patients. 

Q.  As  well  as  it  could  be  carried  on?  A.  Yes,  sir;  you  can’t 
expect  much  out  of  patients. 

Q.  Is  that  true  of  the  employees  throughout  the  institution  so 
far  as  you  know,  where  the  patients  are  employed?  A.  Yes,  sir,  that 
has  a  great  deal  to  do  with  it. 

Q.  Furthermore,  there  is  a  great  scarcity  of  male  help?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Attendants?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  the  cause  of  that  scarcity?  A.  Well,  Dr. 
Babcock  told  me  he  could  not  get  nurses  to  suit  him. 

Q.  He  told  you  he  had  great  difficulty  in  selecting  nurses?  A. 
He  said  he  had  plenty  of  applicants,  but  he  could  not  get  nurses 
to  suit  him. 

Q.  Did  he  ever  discuss  the  question  of  being  hampered  for  funds 
for  putting  in  additional  nurses?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Don’t  you  know  that  was  the  reason  for  not  getting  more 
help?  A.  I  don’t  know  that  he  assigned  that  as  a  reason,  but  that 
matter  was  mentioned. 

Q.  By  you  or  by  him?  A.  By  him. 


233 


Q.  Did  you  ever  see  anything  on  the  part  of  Dr.  Babcock  to 
indicate  that  he  condoned  cruelty  to  patients  here  in  this  institution  ? 
A.  I  am  uneducated,  and  I  would  rather  you  would  be  a  little 
plainer. 

Q.  The  word  condoned?  A.  I  don’t  exactly  understand  that 
word. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  anything  on  his  part  looking  like  he 
would  sanction  anything  of  that  kind,  allow  it  to  go  on  if  he  knew 
it?  A.  No,  I  have  never  seen  anything  that  led  me  to  believe  that 
he  favored  such  a  thing  as  that. 

Q.  Don’t  you  know  he  was  against  such  a  thing  as  that?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Don’t  you  know  he  and  one  of  the  nurses  here  had  a  difficulty 
about  that  very  thing?  A.  Yes,  sir,  he  told  me  he  did. 

Q.  Who  was  the  nurse  ?  A.  The  nurse's  name  was  Kinard. 

Q.  Did  you  see  anything  in  Dr.  Thompson  to  indicate  that  he 
would  allow  such  a  thing,  tolerate  such  a  thing  in  here,  Mr.  Mitchell? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  it  his  custom  to  investigate  those  things  or  cases  when 
they  were  reported  to  him?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  possible  to  deal  with  three  or  four  hundred  insane  persons 
without  occasional  assaults  and  fusses  arising  amongst  patients  and 
nurses;  in  your  judgment,  do  you  think  it  is  possible  to  run  an 
institution  without  assault  cases  of  that  kind  occurring?  A.  No, 
it  will  come  up  from  time  to  time. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  visited  other  hospitals?  A.  Yes,  sir.  * 

Q.  Do  you  think  conditions  here  along  that  line  compare  favora¬ 
bly  with  those  you  went  to  ?  A.  The  white  male  department 
does  not. 

Q.  In  what  respect?  A.  It  is  not  kept  as  clean. 

Q.  I  was  discussing  the  question  of  cruelty?  A.  I  don’t  know 
about  that.  I  just  visited,  went  in  them  and  walked  around. 

Q.  What  institutions  did  you  visit?  A.  The  State  asylum  of 
Maryland. 

Q.  You  could  not  expect  this  to  be  as  fine  as  that?  A.  No. 

Q.  Did  you  visit  any  other?  A.  Only  the  State  asylum.  Some 
time  previous  to  that  T  visited  the  government  hospital  in  Wash¬ 
ington.  Mount  Hope  in  Maryland. 

Q.  Were  you  here  under  Dr.  Grififin?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  the  institution  kept  in  as  good  condition  now  as  then?  A. 
The  white  male  department  is  not. 


234 


Q.  The  rest?  A.  I  am  not  in  position  to  answer  that  question. 

0.  So  far  as  you  know?  A.  So  far  as  I  know  it  is. 

Q.  It  seems  that  these  complaints  came  out  of  yours  and  Dr. 
Thompson's  white  male  wards?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  feel  like  you  are  doing  your  duty  in  there?  How  do 
you  account  for  these  complaints?  A.  I  try  to  do  my  duty.  As  I 
stated  a  while  ago.  I  don't  get  co-operation  every  time.  It  is  very 
natural  to  become  careless  somewhat. 

Q.  You  get  the  co-operation  of  Dr.  Thompson?  A.  Pretty  well, 
yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  of  the  patients,  haven’t  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  all  swear  so.  You  are  both  held  in  the  highest  respect. 
What  we  want  to  do  is  to  lay  our  fingers  right  on  the  weak  spot. 
You  have  got  the  co-operation  of  the  doctor  and  the  nurses,  so  far 
as  they  are  concerned,  haven’t  you?  A.  Well,  not  in  every  respect. 
I  think  I  stated  a  while  ago  that  some  of  the  nurses  did  not  obey 
my  instructions. 

Q.  You  want  to  get  rid  of  them?  A.  I  do. 

O.  I  want  you  to  tell  us  a  little  more  about  that  - case  you 

referred  to?  A.  I  went  over  the  ground  yesterday.  I  don’t  want 
to  be  misled.  That  is  one  of  the  cases  I  reported  that  he  did  not 
take  any  action  in. 

Q.  When  did  that  happen  ?  I  don't  think  it  was  brought  out  yes¬ 
terday?  A.  It  was  brought  up  yesterday. 

Q.  The  time — when  did  it  happen?  A.  That  happened  either  in 
1904  or  1905.  I  cannot  be  positive. 

Q.  I  understood  you  to  say  some  patient  assaulted - ?  A. 

Yes.  some  nurse. 

Q.  Who  was  the  nurse?  A.  Johnson. 

Q.  What  became  of  Johnson?  A.  My  recollection  is  that  John¬ 
son  quit. 

Q.  How  long  after  that?  A.  Several  months. 

Q.  Did  you  report  that  matter  to  Dr.  Thompson?  A.  I  did. 

Q.  What  did  the  doctor  say?  A.  Well,  the  doctor  was  going 
away  the  next  day.  I  reported  the  matter  in  the  afternoon,  and 
he  told  me  he  was  going  away  the  next  day,  and  for  me  to  be  sure 
to  call  Dr.  Babcock's  attention  to  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  he  was  going?  A.  He  did  not  tell  me. 

Q.  Did  you  call  the  doctor’s  attention  to  it?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I 
reported  it  the  next  morning. 


235 


Q.  What  did  the  doctor  say?  A.  I  don’t  remember  all  that  was 
said  about  it.  I  remember  he  told  me  to  dress  the  man’s  face. 

Q.  Anything  else?  A.  I  don’t  think.  There  was  not  very  much 
conversation  about  it.  We  were  going  through  the  wards.  There 
was  not  very  much  discussion,  I  think,  about  it. 

Q.  Was  the  fellow  hurt  much?  A.  Yes,  sir,  he  was  pretty 
smartly  gashed  in  his  face. 

Q.  Did  Dr.  Thompson  take  it  up  when  he  came  back  ?  A.  The 
doctor  asked  me  when  he  came  back.  He  asked  me  the  question 
one  day,  and  I  told  him  I  had  reported  it. 

Q.  Did  Dr.  Thompson  look  into  it  after  he  came  back?  A.  I  can’t 
answer  that. 

Q.  Was  the  case  ever  investigated?  A.  I  investigated  it  as  far 
as  I  could.  The  nurse  admitted  it  to  me. 

Q.  Admitted  that  it  was  unjustifiable?  A.  Yes,  he  told  me  that 
he  lost  control  of  his  temper,  and  the  other  nurse  interfered  with 
him  and  stopped  him.  He  would  have  gone  further  with  the 
violence. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  either  Dr.  Babcock  or  Dr.  Thompson 
made  a  thorough  investigation  of  that  case  or  not,  as  it  is  their 
custom  to  do?  A.  1  don’t  know.  I  reported  it  to  them  and  dis¬ 
missed  it  from  my  mind. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  what  they  did?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  I  believe  you  described  the  difficulty  to  us  on  yesterday?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sawyer — If  he  had  been  a  sane  man,  could  he  have  attended 
to  his  business  after  this  assault?  A.  It  was  just  a  flesh  wound. 
There  were  no  stitches  taken,  more  of  a  bruise  than  anything  else. 

Q.  What  was  he  hit  with?  A.  Shoe  heels.  That  was  the  way 
the  matter  was  reported  to  me. 

Q.  The  wound  was  a  kind  of  bruise  or  a  cut?  A.  More  of  a 
bruise. 

M.  Carey — That  grave  yard  again.  When  was  that  that  you  saw 
those  bones  out  there  thrown  up  ?  A.  That  is  where  you  trouble 
me  as  to  dates  again. 

Q.  About  how  long?  A.  It  has  been  within  ten  years. 

0.  At  that  time  the  patients  who  died  here  were  buried  in  that 
cemetery,  Elmwood?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Since  that  time  they  have  a  cemetery  of  their  own  right  here 
on  the  asylum  property?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  which  they  bury?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


236 


Q.  How  long  have  they  been  burying  there  in  the  new  cemetery? 
A.  Out  here? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  Well,  I  don’t  remember. 

Q.  About  how  long?  A.  They  have  been  burying  here  over  a 
year. 

Q.  The  conditions  have  been  changed,  and  the  patients  who  die 
are  decently  interred?  A.  So  far  as  I  know. 

Q.  You  have  heard  no  such  complaints  since  they  have  had  their 
own  cemetery?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Where  are  the  colored  patients  buried?  A.  Over  here  (indi¬ 
cating.) 

Q.  They  are  decently  buried?  A.  As  far  as  I  know. 

0.  Do  you  know  any  more  than  those  specific  instances  you 
mentioned  of  digging  into  the  graves  ?  A.  The  matter  was  reported 
to  me.  I  only  saw  one. 

0.  That  was  all  you  ever  saw?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  I  understood,  that  was  in  a  crowded  condition,  was  it  not? 
A.  It  had  been  used  up. 

Q.  Practically  used  up?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  in  burying  others  the  space  was  too  small?  A.  The 
graves  were  dug  too  close  together. 

Q.  In  digging  a  new  grave  between  two  others,  that  was  how 
it  happened?  A.  That  was  the  original  plan. 

Q.  That  is  the  only  way  it  could  happen?  A.  That  was  the 
doctor’s  instructions  as  to  burying  the  dead. 

Q.  Between  the  two?  A.  Between  two  graves. 

Q.  That  was  the  only  way  you  could  bury  them?  A.  It  wasn’t 
the  only  way  they  did. 

Q.  How  ?  A.  They  dug  right  down  into  the  same  grave. 

Q.  Was  it  the  doctor’s  instructions  to  dig  between  the  graves? 
A.  That  was  his  instruction. 

Q.  Who  was  in  fault  in  digging  into  any  other  grave  ?  A.  There 
was  not  space  enough,  so  they  finally  dug  down  into  the  same  grave. 

Q.  Who  dug  these  graves?  A.  Different  parties  dug  the  graves. 
More  than  two  dug  the  graves,  had  the  contract. 

Q.  Who  actually  dug  the  graves?  A.  A  colored  man,  a  hired 
man. 

Q.  Do  you  know  his  name?  A.  No,  I  don’t  know  his  name. 

Q.  Is  he  here  now?  A.  That  part  of  the  business  is  let  by  con¬ 
tract. 


237 


Q.  Who  lets  out  the  contract?  A.  The  authorities  of  the  asylum. 

Q.  The  Board  of  Regents?  A.  I  suppose  so. 

Q.  Did  the  Board  of  Regents  have  charge  of  that  plat  in  the 
cemetery  there?  A.  I  could  not  answer  that  question. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  that.  When  they  found  it  was  in  that 
crowded  condition  they  provided  a  cemetery  on  the  institution  s 
own  property,  when  they  found  that  they  did  not  have  room  there 
at  all  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  board  provided  this  place?  A.  I  don't  know  that  of 
my  own  personal  knowledge. 

Q.  That  is  your  understanding  of  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bates — How  long  have  you  been  filling  prescriptions  for  this 
institution?  A.  For  twenty  years,  I  think. 

Q.  Where  did  you  study  pharmacy?  A.  I  only  studied  phar¬ 
macy — the  most  I  studied  was  here,  except  that  I  took  a  course  by 
mail. 

Q.  A  correspondence  school?  A.  Yes,  in  Chicago. 

Q.  Did  you  graduate?  A.  No,  sir,  I  did  not. 

Mr.  Sawyer — Mr.  Mitchell,  don’t  you  know  that  a  good  many  men 
working  in  reputable  drug  stores  and  filling  prescriptions  are  not 
druggists,  that  are  not  pharmacy  graduates  in  this  State?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  I  see  drug  clerks  working. 

Q.  Filling  prescriptions?  A.  I  don't  know  about  filling  prescrip¬ 
tions.  I  see  them  selling. 

Q.  You  never  saw  a  drug  clerk  filling  a  prescription  that  was 
not  a  graduate  in  pharmacy?  You  don’t  know  of  any  such  within 
your  own  knowledge?  A.  That  is  something  I  never  inquire  into. 

Q.  You  learned  that  business  right  here,  how  to  put  up  these 
prescriptions?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  can  read  a  prescription  all  right?  A.  If  it  is  written 
in  the  original. 

Q.  I  am  talking  about  medical  prescriptions?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  understand  the  business,  don’t  you?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  can 
compound  any  ordinary  prescription.  In  any  complication  I  always 
refer  it  to  the  physician. 

Q.  You  have  never  poisoned  anybody?  A.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 

The  Chairman — Do  you  receive  any  salary  as  pharmacist  ?  A. 
Well,  my  pay  is  $55.00  a  month. 

Q.  How  long  has  it  been  $65.00?  A.  $55.00.  Well,  I  got  a  raise 
about  two  years  ago,  I  think  it  was. 

Q.  Before  that  ?  A.  Before  that  it  was  $40.00. 


238 

Q.  When  were  you  made  pharmacist?  A.  As  I  said  a  while 
ago,  I  have  been  filling  these  prescriptions  for  twenty  years. 

0.  Were  you  given  any  extra  pay  when  you  took  charge  of 
that  work?  A.  Yes.  The  former  custom  was  for  the  sick  nurse  on 
each  side  to  deliver  the  medicines  and  help  the  physicians  fill  the 
prescriptions,  and  carry  the  medicines  through,  and  administer  them, 
but  when  Dr.  Babcock  came  he  changed  that.  I  filled  the  prescrip¬ 
tions  for  the  institution,  and  Dr.  Corbett  before  Dr.  Babcock  came 
here. 

Q.  What  position  did  you  then  hold?  A.  The  position  was  then 
called  sick  nurse. 

Q.  You  were  filling  the  prescriptions  as  a  sick  nurse?  A.  I 
assisted  Dr.  Corbett  in  his  department.  I  had  nothing  to  do  in 
there. 

0.  What  did  they  pay  you  then?  A.  $25.00. 

Q.  Then  you  were  made  supervisor  of  the  white  male  ward?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  and  they  gave  me  the  whole  of  the  institution  as  to  filling 
prescriptions. 

Q.  What  change  did  they  make  in  your  salary  when  that  occurred  ? 
A.  That  has  been  a  good  while  ago.  I  don’t  know  whether  I  can 
make  a  correct  statement  along  that  line  or  not.  I  think  I  was  given 
a  raise.  They  raised  it  to  $40.00  and  gave  me  a  house. 

Q.  Was  it  at  that  time  that  you  had  your  course  in  a  correspond¬ 
ence  school?  A.  After  that  time. 

Q.  Sortly  after?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  you  did  not  report  the  cook  as  unsatisfactory?  You 
did  not  consider  it  your  duty  to  report  the  cook,  was  that  it?  A.  I 
did  not  consider  it  was  such. 

Q.  That  is  not  in  your  line  ?  A.  That  is  not  in  my  department. 

Q.  Who  does  the  mending  for  the  patients  on  the  wards?  A. 
Mending  of  what? 

0.  Clothes.  A.  There  is  very  little  done. 

Q.  There  is  a  good  deal  needed?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  is  that  little  done?  A.  We  have  an  old  gentleman  over 
there  that  does  a  little,  sews  on  buttons,  sews  up  rips,  and  things 
like  that. 

Q.  Does  he  attend  to  it  properly?  A.  O,  no,  it  is  not  done 
properly  at  all. 

Q.  Have  you  reported  that  matter?  A.  O,  yes,  I  have  talked  that 
matter  over  with  Dr.  Babcock  several  times. 

Q.  For  how  long?  A.  That  has  been  going  of  for  years. 


239 


Q.  How  many  years,  about?  A.  That  occurred  when  they  had 
smallpox  here.  That  matter  was  stopped.  They  did  not  send  the 
clothes  to  the  sewing  room  as  long  as  they  had  smallpox. 

Q.  When  was  that?  A.  I  don’t  remember  the  dates. 

Q.  How  long?  A.  It  has  been  several  years. 

Q.  Five?  A.  It  has  been  longer  than  that.  I  was  studying.  It 
has  been  eight  or  ten  years,  I  think,  since  we  have  had  an  outbreak  of 
smallpox. 

Q.  Has  it  been  going  on  since  then?  A.  From  time  to  time. 
They  did  a  little  on  the  yard — the  female  patients. 

Q.  How  long  since  that  has  been  stopped?  A.  Six  years. 

Q.  Since  that  time  this  old  man  has  done  all  that  has  been  done? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  the  patients  been  badly  neglected  for  want  of  more 
mending?  A.  O,  yes,  I  have  had  to  throw  away  a  lot  of  things 
because  I  could  not  have  them  mended. 

Q.  That  has  resulted  in  waste?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  would  make  that  recommendation  again  now,  would  you? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  would  be  necessary  along  that  line?  A.  It  would  be 
necessary  to  have  a  sewing  room,  and  somebody  to  conduct  it. 

Q.  Do  you  think  one  man  would  be  able  to  attend  to  it?  A.  No. 

Q.  How  many  would  it  take?  A.  I  don’t  know  very  much  about 
that,  but  I  don’t  think  one  man  would  be  able  to  do  the  sewing  that 
would  be  needed  in  the  white  male  department. 

Q.  It  would  take  one  man  with  an  assistant  or  two  assistants? 
A.  I  will  have  to  decline  giving  an  opinion,  because  I  don’t  know 
anything  about  it  practically  speaking. 

Q.  Who  can  give  an  opinion?  A.  Some  of  the  sewing  room 
women.  Mrs.  Garrison  could  probably  tell  you.  It  is  something 
I  had  never  thought  anything  about. 

Q.  Speaking  of  this  matter  of  burial,  did  I  understand  you  to 
say  yesterday  that  you  had  complained  about  that  at  least  three 
times?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  that  was  going  on  for  at  least  a  year?  A.  That 
went  on  for  a  year  or  more. 

Q.  Did  any  other  officials  of  the  institution  complain  about  it? 
A.  I  could  not  tell  you  about  that,  and  other  officials,  I  did  not 
know  of  it. 

Q.  Of  the  institution?  A.  I  could  not  tell  you. 


240 


Q.  To  whom  did  you  make  your  complaint?  A.  I  made  my 
complaint  to  Dr.  Babcock  direct. 

Q.  Didn’t  the  other  officials  tell  you  that  they  had  also  told  Dr. 
Babcock  about  it?  A.  The  matter  was  talked  over  by  me  and  Dr. 
Thompson.  I  don’t  remember  that  he  told  me  that  he  had  made  any 
complaint  about  it. 

Q.  It  was  generally  talked  about  over  the  institution?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  among  the  nurses  it  was.  The  nurses  would  complain  to  me 
after  they  would  come  back  from  the  cemetery. 

Q.  It  was  a  matter  of  general  protest?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  For  a  year?  A.  Yes,  at  different  times. 

Q.  Did  you  in  your  report  state  that  the  instructions  of  the 
superintendent  could  not  be  or  were  not  carried  out  as  to  the 
digging  of  graves,  and  that  they  were  burying  in  the  old  graves? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  I  made  that  statement  to  Dr.  Babcock  that  they  had 
buried  in  the  same  old  grave. 

Q.  Who  was  the  contractor  that  had  that  in  hand?  A.  Mr. 
McCormick  had  it  when  it  started. 

Q.  Who  had  it  at  the  time  we  are  speaking  of?  A.  At  the  time 
I  reported  it? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  Mr.  McCormick. 

Q.  Do  you  know  who  is  the  man  that  had  it  in  direct  charge, 
Mr.  Mitchell?  A.  Mr.  McCormick. 

Q.  Yes?  A.  He  has  a  grave  digger,  a  regular  grave  digger. 

Q.  Who  is  he?  A.  A  colored  man. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  his  name?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  As  I  understood  your  answer  before  to  some  of  the  questions 
you  admit  that  you  are  to  blame  to  some  extent  in  your  work  here? 
A.  Yes,  I  am  obliged  to  admit  that  a  man  after  he  sees  that  he 
can’t  do  anything  is  mighty  apt  to  get  careless. 

Q.  And  you  have  tried  to  remedy  these  conditions  a  good  many 
times?  A.  I  did  the  best  I  could,  yes.. 

Q.  The  circumstances  of  which  you  think  you  are  a  victim  are 
want  of  help  and  want  of  co-operation  with  those  in  authority  over 
you?  A.  Yes,  to  a  certain  extent. 

Q.  You  say  that  you  have  repeatedly  asked  for  more  help,  have 
you?  A.  Yes,  sir,  from  time  to  time. 

Q.  For  many  years?  A.  I  have  not  said  very  much  about  that 
lately,  because  I  learned  it  did  not  do  any  good,  so  I  left  it  off. 

Q.  When  did  you  begin  ?  A.  Several  years  ago,  six  or  seven 
years  ago.  I  used  to  complain  very  often  about  it. 


241 


Q.  You  say  from  seven  years  ago  until  you  had  complained  so 
frequently  that  you  found  it  did  not  do  any  good,  and  then  you 
quit?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  left  it  off.  I  would  talk  to  Dr.  Thompson 
about  it,  about  the  condition  of  the  wards  and  the  scarcity  of  the 
nurses,  and  I  also  told  Dr.  Babcock,  and  he  told  me  he  could  not 
get  the  nurses. 

Q.  Did  you  also  complain  about  the  condition,  the  physical  con¬ 
dition,  not  whitewashed  and  plastered?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  did  you  complain  about  that?  A.  I  have  complained 
about  that  for  several  years.  The  last  complaintl  made  to  Dr. 
Babcock  about  that  was  this,  Dr.  Babcock  was  last  spring  a  year 
ago,  I  think  it  was — 

Q.  Did  you  complain  very  frequently?  A.  Well,  I  did  not  com¬ 
plain  to  him  about  the  whitewashing,  about  the  shortage  of  the 
nurses  very  frequently. 

Q.  You  complained  to  him  about  the  condition,  the  physical 
condition,  of  the  wards  numbers  of  times  in  the  last  six  years? 
A.  I  have  made  that  complaint  to  Dr.  Thompson. 

Q.  Aren’t  those  conditions  such  that  the  Board  of  Regents  or 
the  Superintendent  in  casually  walking  through  the  wards  would 
see?  A.  That  is  a  matter  of  opinion. 

Q.  I  want  your  opinion?  A.  Do  you  consider  that  evidence? 

Q.  I  want  your  opinion  as  to  the  conditions  in  your  wards,  are 
they  such  that  anyone  making  a  casual  investigation  could  see  that 
these  general  repairs  were  very  necessary?  A.  If  they  looked  they 
would,  if  they  looked. 

Q.  I  gather  from  your  replies,  then,  that  you  have  gotten  to  feel 
rather  helpless  about  getting  anything  done  after  a  number  of  years 
of  complaint?  A.  Yes.  It  was  disheartening. 

Q.  Is  that  the  carelessness  of  which  you  spoke?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  this  feeling  of  apathy  and  helplessness  extend  to  the 
nurses  under  you  ?  A.  I  will  ask  you  to  be  more  explicit. 

Q.  This  feeling  that  complaints  did  not  result  in  any  improve¬ 
ment,  and  consequently  a  letting  down  of  the  tone  of  the  discipline 
extend  to  the  nurses  under  you  ?  A.  Will  you  repeat  that  again  ? 

Q.  I  am  trying  to  find  out  whether  the  feeling  that  you  had  that 
complaints  were  of  no  use  had  anything  to  do  with  the  lack  of  dis¬ 
cipline  of  those  under  you  that  you  spoke  of?  A.  They  got  care¬ 
less  first,  and  I  tried  to  enforce  it,  and  I  could  not  do  it. 

Q.  ^  on  say  there  is  a  lack  of  discipline  among  the  attendants  on 
these  wards?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


16— A. 


242 


Q.  Is  that  due  to  lack  of  co-operation,  this  lack  of  discipline?  A. 
As  I  stated  a  while  ago,  I  could  not  enforce  my  instructions,  and  I 
appealed  to  the  Superintendent,  and  it  did  not  improve  the  matter 
in  every  case. 

Q.  Did  you  consider  this  assault  on  patient  Belcher  an  aggra¬ 
vated  case?  A.  I  considered  it  an  unfortunate  affair. 

Q.  Did  the  fact  that  nothing  was  done  about  the  matter  result 
in  any  letting  down  of  the  discipline  of  your  nurses?  A.  I  would 
say  it  had  a  tendency  to  do  so. 

Q.  Is  it  a  general  fault  among  your  nurses  that  you  haven’t  much 
authority  over  them?  A.  I  never  heard  them  express  themselves, 
but  their  actions  would  tend  that  way. 

Q.  You  feel  that  you  are  more  or  less  helpless  to  control  them? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  You  say  with  24  nurses  you  would  have  enough  to  keep  your 
wards  in  good  condition  ?  A.  Fairly  good  condition. 

Q.  Would  there  have  to  be  some  change  in  the  system  of  con¬ 
trol  of  the  nurses  by  you?  A.  O,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  need  more  authority  as  well  as  more  nurses?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  You  want  more  co-operation  as  well  as  more  nurses,  is  that  it? 
A.  That  is  the  idea. 

Q.  You  feel  a  lack  of  system?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  that  you  have  reported  the  matter  of  these  troubles 
to  Dr.  Babcock?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Yon  don’t  know  what  he  did  ?  A.  I  could  not  say  in  every 
case.  In  some  cases  he  told  me  what  he  did  and  in  some  he  did  not. 

Q.  It  was  your  duty  to  report  to  him,  and  after  you  reported  to 
Dr.  Babcock  your  duty  was  at  an  end?  A.  Yes,  sir,  and  I  never 
questioned  whether  they  did  or  did  not. 

Q.  Do  you  feel  reasonably  certain  that  after  the  developments 
of  the  last  few  weeks,  that  more  than  one  patient  has  been  bathed 
frequently  in  the  same  water?  A.  I  have  not  looked  into  that 
matter. 

Q.  You  have  not  looked  into  it?  A.  No,  sir,  I  have  not  looked 
into  it. 

Q.  Can  any  restraints  be  used  in  your  department  without  your 
permission  or  the  permission  of  Dr.  Thompson?  A.  They  do  do  it. 

Q.  Is  it  against  orders?  A.  It  is  the  rule  of  the  house.  I  always 
report  the  matter  when  they  restrain  a  man  and  let  the  physician 
decide  when  the  restraint  is  to  be  removed. 


243 


Q.  Is  that  done?  A.  Not  in  every  case. 

Q.  Is  it  frequently  not  observed?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Why  is  not  that  rule  carried  out?  A.  For  the  want  of  dis¬ 
cipline,  I  suppose. 

Q.  The  system  seems  to  have  become  lax  in  that  respect  too?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  tried  to  carry  it  out?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  To  whom  do  the  nurses  report?  A.  Dr.  Thompson. 

Q.  Not  to  you?  A.  They  can  report  to  me  and  I  to  Dr.  Thomp¬ 
son.  It  was  customary  at  one  time  to  make  an  entry  in  the  books, 
but  that  thing  was  lost  sight  of. 

Q.  Dropped  into  disuse ?  A.  Yes,  just  changed  hands.  That  was 
when  Dr.  Hymen  was  here. 

Q.  How  long  ago  was  that?  A.  Ten  or  twelve  years,  I  reckon. 

Q.  Since  that  has  there  been  any  record  or  reports  of  restraints? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Since  then  restraints  have  often  been  used  without  the  author¬ 
ity  of  the  physician  as  required  by  the  rules?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  the  permission  of  the  physician  usually  asked  for  and  given  ? 
A.  As  a  general  thing,  yes. 

Q.  Frequently  it  is  not?  A.  Frequently. 

Mr.  Hardin — Does  that  salary  include  in  filling  prescriptions  and 
also  for  your  work  on  the  wards?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Harrison — What  report  is  made  as  to  the  dietary  of  the 
patient?  A.  There  is  not  any  report  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  How  would  you  know  what  your  patient  would  have  to  eat? 
A.  You  mean  sick? 

Q.  Take  it  generally?  A.  I  generally  see  it.  I  generally  see  what 
comes  on  the  table. 

Q.  In  each  ward?  A.  No,  not  in  each  ward.  I  visit  the  mess 
hall  every  day,  and  I  visit  the  wards,  the  dining  rooms  on  the  wards 
occasionally. 

Q.  Then  you  don’t  know  what  the  dietary  is  on  all  the  wards, 
do  you.  A.  No. 

O.  Is  there  any  written  report  made  as  to  what  the  dietary  there 
is?  A.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Does  the  attending  physician.  Dr.  Thompson,  ever  go  into 
the  mess  hall  ?  A.  He  comes  there  occasionally. 

Q.  Does  he  ever  go  on  the  wards  when  the  meals  are  being 
served?  A.  I  could  not  answer  that  question.  I  don’t  remember 
ever  striking  up  with  him  on  the  wards.  I  have  been  in  there  from 


244 


time  to  time.  We  would  walk  through,  but  I  never  paid  any  special 
attention  to  the  time. 

Q.  Does  the  Superintendent  ever  go  into  the  main  mess  hall 
while  the  meals  are  going  on?  A.  Never,  sir. 

Q.  In  the  ward  dining  rooms  while  the  meals  are  being  served? 
A.  While  meals  are  being  served? 

Q.  Yes,  sir.  A.  Never  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Have  any  of  the  Board  of  Regents  ever  been  into  the  main 
mess  hall  while  meals  were  being  served  to  your  knowledge,  Mr. 
Mitchell?  A.  Yes,  I  saw  Dr.  Ray  down  there  once. 

Q.  Any  others  ?  A.  In  the  mess  hall  ? 

0.  Alain  mess  hall?  A.  No,  Dr.  Ray  is  the  only  one  I  have  ever 
seen  in  there,  sir. 

Q.  When  did  you  see  Dr.  Ray  there?  A.  I  think  it  has  been 
within  the  last  two  years. 

Q.  In  the  last  two  years?  A.  I  think  so. 

Q.  Are  you  in  there  pretty  often  ?  A.  In  the  mess  hall  ? 

Q.  Yes,  sir.  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  go  there  every  day.  Sometimes  I  go 
there  twice  a  day. 

Q.  It  is  probable  though  that  the  Superintendent  or  the  Regents 
might  be  there  and  you  not  see  them  there  or  hear  them?  A.  Not 
at  meal  times.  I  don't  think.  They  may  go  between  times. 

Q.  At  meal  times  is  what  I  am  speaking  of?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  think  if  they  went  there  during  meal  times  you  would 
see  them?  A.  I  would  see  them  or  hear  of  it. 

Q.  How  about  the  Regents  in  the  ward  dining  rooms.  Have 
you  ever  known  them  to  go  there?  A.  To  examine  the  grub? 

Q.  Yes,  sir.  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Would  you  see  or  hear  of  that?  A.  I  think  so. 

Q.  You  have  on  various  occasions  taken  members  of  the  Board  of 
Regents  through  the  different  wards,  have  you  not,  Air.  Alitchell? 
A.  Never  taken  them  through  the  wards.  I  have  carried  them  on  the 
second  ward  to  see  friends  and  acquaintances  that  lived  in  their 
neighborhood  inquiring  about  them. 

0.  On  one  occasion  you  made  a  tour  of  inspection  with  two  mem¬ 
bers  of  this  Commission,  did  you  not,  through  the  white  male 
department?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Have  you  ever  accompanied  a  member  of  the  Board  of  Regents 
on  such  an  inspection?  A.  No,  sir. 

0.  Have  you  ever  accompanied  the  Superintendent  on  such  an 
inspection?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


245 


Q.  When  was  that?  A.  That  has  been  several  years  ago.  Doctor 
used  to  make  his  rounds  through  the  white  male  department  twice 
a  week.  That  was  before  he  took  charge  of  the  colored  women  and 
the  Dick’s  cottage. 

Q.  How  long  has  it  been  since  he  has  had  charge  of  those  two? 
A.  I  cannot  tell  you.  I  don’t  remember.  That  matter  can  be  very 
easily  ascertained. 

Q.  From  the  records?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  has  been  several  years?  A.  Yes,  sir,  it  has  been  several 
years. 

Q.  Does  Dr.  Babcock  ever  go  on  the  wards  now  for  an  inspec¬ 
tion?  A.  No. 

Q.  He  does  not?  A.  No.  You  mean  the  white  male  department? 

Q.  Yes,  the  Board  of  Regents,  have  they  ever  made  a  thorough 
inspection  of  those  wards,  go  through  from  top  to  bottom,  to  your 
knowledge?  A.  Not  since  I  have  been  here,  to  my  knowledge.  They 
might  have  done  that  and  I  not  known  it. 

Q.  They  might  have  gone  through  there  and  made  that  inspec¬ 
tion  and  you  not  know  it?  A.  Yes,  sir.  There  was  one  member 
of  the  board  that  went  through  probably  since  Christmas,  Dr. 
Taylor. 

0.  At  what  time  was  that?  A.  I  don’t  know.  It  has  been  since 
Christmas.  I  was  told  that  he  went  through.  I  did  not  see  him. 

O.  Would  you  have  had  information  if  the  Board  of  Regents 
had  been  through  there?  Would  you  have  known  about  it?  Is  it 
possible  that  they  could  have  gone  through  without  your  having 
heard  of  it,  or  would  you  probably  have  heard  about  it,  if  they  had? 
A.  In  a  general  way  I  think  I  would  have  heard  something  about  it. 

The  Chairman — Dr.  Babcock,  as  I  understand,  has  charge  of  the 
colored  women’s  building?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  there  not  about  500  patients  there?  A.  I  don’t  know  what 
the  number  is. 

Q.  From  four  to  five  hundred,  about?  A.  Colored  women? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  I  don’t  know  what  the  number  is. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  is  physically  possible  for  any  man  to  properly 
attend  to  the  general  supervision  of  an  institution  of  this  size  and 
at  the  same  time  attempt  to  give  the  proper  medical  attention  to  one 
of  the  chief  departments  at  the  same  time  he  is  doing  that?  A. 
That  is  an  opinion  that  is  a  rather  difficult  one  for  me  to  decide. 
I  don’t  consider  that  I  am  the  person  to  give  an  opinion  on  anything 
like  that. 


246 


Q.  Does  it  require  a  good  deal  of  time  to  go  through  your  depart¬ 
ment  for  a  physician?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  About  how  long?  A.  You  can  go  through  in  a  hurry  or  you 
can  take  a  day  to  do  it. 

Q.  Properly?  A.  Two  and  a  half  hours,  to  go  on  every  ward  and 
see  the  patients  that  are  complaining  and  hear  the  complaints  that 
are  made. 

Q.  The  rule  is  here?  A.  Twice  a  day,  that  is  the  rule. 

Q.  Isn't  it  your  information  that  it  is  not  usual  to  require  of  a 
Superintendent  that  he  should  attempt  to  take  charge  of  such  work 
as  that  besides  the  work  as  Superintendent  of  the  institution?  A. 
In  some  instances  the  Superintendent  does  not  have  any  care  like 
that  on  his  shoulders  at  all. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  so  in  most  instances?  A.  I  never  have  gone  into 
those  things  particularly. 

Mr.  Carey — Who  employed  you?  A.  Dr.  Griffin. 

Q.  Who  now  elects  the  employees  in  the  institution,  who  gave 
you  your  job?  A.  The  Superintendent  employs. 

Q.  All  under  him?  A.  Yes,  sir,  Dr.  Babcock  selects  the  nurses. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  make  complaint  to  the  Board  of  Regents  or  to 
any  board?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  None  whatever?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  any  sheets  here  for  filthy  patients 
other  than  rubber  sheets?  A.  We  use  rubber  sheets  to  protect  the 
mattresses. 

Q.  They  are  in  use  in  the  institution?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  know  Mr.  - ?  A.  J.  M.? 

Q.  Yes,  sir.  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  testified  that  he  tried  to  get  employment,  and  could  not 
get  it.  Do  you  think  he  ought  to  have  had  employment  any  more 
than  he  got?  A.  There  comes  an  opinion  again. 

Q.  Didn’t  you  recommend  that  employment  be  not  given  to  him? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  I  did. 

0.  What  was  your  reason  for  it?  A.  My  reason  for  that  was  that 

Mr.  -  was  very  annoying.  He  would  come  to  me  with  his 

reports  and  of  course  I  would  have  to  hear  them. 

Q.  You  did  not  think  he  ought  to  be  employed?  A.  Just  from 
that  standpoint. 

Q.  He  gave  you  a  whole  lot  of  trouble?  A.  I  considered  Mr. 

-  rather  officious  and  he  persisted  in  it.  That  was  from  my 

standpoint. 


247 


Q.  This  medicine  you  used  on  the  bugs,  it  is  as  good  as  you 
know  of  for  that  purpose?  A.  Yes,  it  is  the  best  preparation  I 
know  of  from  an  economical  standpoint.  Other  things  are  all  right, 
but  they  cost  much  more  money. 

Q.  You  know  of  no  better  remedy?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  it?  A.  We  use  a  preparation  of  turpentine  and  car¬ 
bolic  acid,  an  ounce  to  the  pint  of  carbolic  acid. 

Q.  When  Dr.  Hyman  was  here  did  you  and  he  have  charge  of 
the  dining  room  ?  A.  He  had  charge  of  the  white  male  depart¬ 
ment. 

Q.  That  is  the  position  he  held.  Now  that  position  Dr.  Thompson 
fills?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  never  did  work  up  to  the  point  of  resigning?  A.  No,  I 
never  have. 

Q.  Do  you  send  requisitions  for  supplies  in  the  dining  room, 
supplies  to  the  dining  room?  Is  that  a  part  of  your  duties?  A.  In 
my  department  it  is. 

Q.  In  the  general  dining  rooms,  for  all  those  supplies  there?  A. 
I  send  all  that  are  presented  to  me. 

Q.  Do  you  have  any  judgment  in  the  selection  of  what  it  should 
be?  A.  Yes,  I  can  strike  out  certain  things  and  insert  others,  if 
I  see  proper. 

Q.  The  things  that  are  supplied  in  there,  do  they  meet  with  your 
approval?  A.  The  things  that  are  used  there  compare  very  well 
with  the  things  used  on  any  farm.  I  never  made  any  charge.  My 
instructions  from  Dr.  Babcock  were  to  let  things  rock  just  as  they 
were  going. 

Mr.  Bates — Who  writes  out  the  requisitions?  A.  The  nurse 
usually  does.  Sometimes  I  do  myself. 

Mr.  Bunch — Were  not  the  requisitions  always  filled  when  pre¬ 
sented?  A.  To  the  store  room? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  So  far  as  I  know  they  were.  I  never  heard  any 
complaint,  sir. 

Mr.  Harrison — You  had  no  right  to  make  requisitions  for  food, 
did  you?  A.  No,  I  never  did  anything  like  that. 

Q.  Those  requisitions  that  you  made  were  for  table  supplies?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Such  as  were  fixed  ?  A.  In  the  dining  rooms. 

Q.  Supplied  to  the  ward  dining  rooms?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Forks?  A.  We  don’t  use  forks  in  the  building. 

Q.  Spoons  and  cups?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


248 


Mr.  Bunch — Mr.  Mitchell,  you  stated  yesterday  that  those  patients 
that  helped  serve  the  meals  in  the  dining  room  with  food  were  not 
clean.  Who  selects  those  patients  and  sends  them  to  the  dining 
room?  A.  That  is  generally  done  by  the  dining  room  man.  He 
asks  for  them. 

Q.  Do  you  have  anything  to  do  with  the  selection  of  the  patients 
that  go  there  to  the  dining  room?  A.  No,  not  directly,  indirectly 
I  have. 

Q.  Aren’t  those  patients  selected  out  of  the  best  patients  on  the 
ward?  A.  We  try  to  get  the  best  men  we  can  to  do  the  work.  If 
you  get  a  man  that  is  a  bright  man  on  the  ward  he  will  not  work  in 
the  dining  room.  It  is  the  class  of  patients  that  haven’t  got  very 
much  mind  that  do  the  work  in  the  dining  room.  As  I  said  yester¬ 
day,  if  you  fix  a  man  up  today,  by  tomorrow  he  has  got  his  clothes 
soiled.  A  man  that  has  got  much  sense  is  not  going  to  work  in  the 
dining  room. 

Q.  You  were  here  before  I  came  here,  some  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  has  been  stated  that  this  dairy  is  in  an  unsanitary  condi¬ 
tion.  How  does  that  dairy  compare  with  the  dairy  that  they  had 
when  I  came  here  in  1881  ?  A.  Prior  to  that  time? 

Q.  When  I  came  here?  A.  Considerable  improvement,  because 
at  that  time  they  did  not  have  any  concrete  floors  at  all. 

Q.  There  is  another  question  I  would  like  to  ask  you.  How 
does  the  supply  of  vegetables  compare  with  the  supply  then  obtained 
from  the  farm  ?  A.  Prior  to  the  time  you  came  ? 

Q.  Yes,  sir,  before  I  took  charge  of  it,  are  we  getting  more 
vegetables  or  less  vegetables?  A.  That  is  something  I  never  had 
thought  anything  about.  I  never  had  charge  of  the  vegetables. 
That  was  out  of  my  department. 

0.  You  come  through  the  farm  every  day?  A.  Yes,  but  I  did 
not  at  that  time,  but  I  will  say  this,  that  we  get  plenty  of  vegetables 
when  vegetables  are  in  season.  In  fact,  we  have  vegetables  all  the 
year  round. 

Mr.  Sawyer — Did  you  get  just  as  many?  You  can’t  see  any 
improvement  he  has  made?  A.  I  was  just  thinking.  We  have  a  great 
deal  more  in  the  winter.  In  former  times  we  did  not  get  ruta  baga 
turnips.  In  the  summer  when  vegetables  are  in  season  we  have 
always  had  them  here,  but  whether  they  were  raised  or  not  before 
he  came  here  I  cannot  say. 

v  Mr.  Bunch — It  has  been  stated  here  that  we  ought  to  raise  more 
food  stuffs  on  the  farm.  Plow  does  the  crop  of  corn  compare  with 


249 


the  crops  raised  before  I  took  charge  ?  You  have  had  some  expe¬ 
rience  along  that  line?  A.  There  is  more  corn  raised  now  than  in 
former  days. 

Q.  How  does  the  supply  of  corn  furnished  for  the  table  here,  the 
asylum,  compare  to  the  supplies  that  were  furnished  previous  to  my 
incumbency  here  of  this  position  as  bread  stuffs  here?  A.  Well, 
the  corn,  as  a  general  thing— the  meal  and  hominy  you  have  refer¬ 
ence  to? 

Q.  The  corn  generally  used  here?  A.  As  a  general  thing  it  is 
better,  because  the  meal  ground  here  is  better  than  bought  meal. 

Q.  How  does  the  quality  of  beef  compare  to  the  quality  of  what 
was  here  when  I  came  here?  A.  The  beef  is  a  great  deal  better. 
I  can  talk  more  freely  on  that  than  anything  else  you  have  men¬ 
tioned.  The  beef  in  former  days  was  pretty  rough. 

Q.  How  does  the  supply  of  bacon  compare  with  that  formerly  fur¬ 
nished  for  the  farm?  A.  We  have  had  more  bacon,  more  fresh  meat 
since  you  have  been  here  than  we  had  in  former  days. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  of  the  idea  of  raising  flour  enough  to 
supply  this  institution  on  this  farm?  A.  Mr.  Bunch,  that  is  an 
opinion. 

Q.  Of  course.  Others  have  expressed  opinions.  We  want  your 
opinion.  You  have  been  here  with  me  eighteen  years,  and  I  want 
you  to  give  this  Commission  your  opinion.  Do  you  believe  it  is 
possible  to  raise  all  the  flour  that  we  use  here  in  this  institution  on 
this  farm  in  connection  with  the  corn  and  vegetables  we  use?  A. 
Not  according  to  the  present  management. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  would  be  possible  under  any  other  manage¬ 
ment?  A.  No,  I  don’t  think  so. 

Mr.  Harrison — Previous  to  Mr.  Bunch’s  administration,  wasn’t 
hired  employees  used  in  that  dairy?  A.  Yes,  and  during  his 
administration  too. 

Q.  Since  his  administration  you  say  that  conditions  are  cleaner, 
more  sanitary?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Than  they  were  before?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bunch — Were  any  milkers  ever  reported  that  had  syphilis 
or  gonorrhoea  when  we  had  hired  men?  A.  I  don’t  know. 

Q.  Whether  they  were  reported— do  you  know  of  anything  of  the 
kind?  A.  How  is  that? 

Q.  Any  of  the  milkers  there,  did  they  come  under  your  observa¬ 
tion  as  having  gonorrhoea  or  syphilis,  those  that  were  milking 


250 


there?  A.  There  was  one  man  with  gonorrhoea  that  was  reported, 
I  think.  I  am  not  sure. 

Q.  It  is  not  possible  with  the  patients  provided?  Dr.  Griffin  uses 
proper  precautions  in  selecting  patients  to  send  out  to  milk?  A. 
No,  not  if  the  matter  was  left  to  him. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  his  duty  to  select  the  patients  that  go  out  there  or  to 
do  any  other  work  on  the  place?  A.  If  it  was  left  to  him. 

Q.  It  would  be  his  duty  to  send  out  patients  who  were  clear  of 
syphilis,  gonorrhoea  or  any  other  contagious  disease?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  milkers?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sawyer — Mr.  Mitchell,  were  you  raised  on  the  farm?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Born  and  raised  on  the  farm?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  Just  from  your  observation  out  there  of  the  negroes  milking, 
do  you  think  those  negroes  are  about  as  clean  as  the  average  negro 
on  the  farm?  A.  About  as  clean  as  those,  I  think  so.  That  is  an 
opinion  though. 

Q.  I  am  just  asking  for  an  opinion?  A.  I  don’t  consider  I  am  an 
expert. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  in  the  course  of  the  administration  of  the 
affairs  of  this  institution  they  have  treated  you  fairly?  A.  Who? 

Q.  Dr.  Babcock  particularly?  A.  That  is  another  opinion.  That 
is  not  evidence. 

Q.  I  think  you  would  come  mighty  near  knowing  about  that, 
whether  they  paid  you  enough.  Do  you  think  you  have  had  a 
square  deal  from  the  administration?  A.  I  think  they  could  have 
paid  me  more  money. 

Q.  Is  that  the  only  complaint  you  have  got  to  make?  A.  That 
is  the  only  complaint  in  addition  to  what  I  have  already  made. 

Q.  I  mean  of  a  personal  nature.  We  would  like  to  get  our  ideas 
about  things  here  now?  A.  No,  I  have  no  personal  grievances.  I 
have  felt  at  times  that  they  were  a  little  close-fisted  about  money 
matters,  but  I  make  no  complaint  about  that. 

Q.  Did  you  think  the  Legislature  was  thinking  more  about  the 
taxpayers  than  about  these  people?  Did  you  think  the  Legislature 
was  close-fisted  with  them?  A.  Yes,  I  thought  so. 

Q.  I  believe  you  were  here  under  the  late  Dr.  Griffin?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  here  under  him?  A.  I  came  here  in  1884. 

Q.  And  Dr.  Griffin  left  here  in  1891,  if  I  am  not  mistaken.  I 
think  those  are  about  the  dates.  Did  you  think  more,  not  in  a  per- 


251 


sonal  way,  of  the  administration  of  Dr.  Griffin  or  Dr.  Babcock’s 
management?  A.  I  have  been  here  longer  under  Dr.  Babcock’s 
management,  and  Dr.  Babcock’s  management  was  all  right  for 
several  years  after  he  came  here.  I  had  no  fault  to  find. 

Q.  In  recent  years  ?  A.  In  recent  years  he  has  appeared  indifferent, 
and  from  some  cause,  I  don’t  know  what.  I  haven’t  got  any  personal 
grievance  at  all.  As  I  understand,  that  is  what  you  want  to  get  at. 

Q.  Well,  not  exactly.  So  often  you  take  a  man  in  an  institution 
of  this  kind,  and  he  feels  like  the  Superintendent  or  head  man  is 
likely  to  show  a  little  more  favoritism  to  another  fellow  than  to 
him?  A.  No,  I  have  got  no  complaint. 

Q.  Why  didn't  you  think  they  did  not  give  you  enough  authority 
on  your  ward?  You  said  you  lacked  system  and  that  Dr.  Babcock 
and  Dr.  Thompson  did  not  co-operate  with  you  on  this  line?  A. 
You  misunderstood  me. 

Q.  You  said  they  would  not  obey  orders  and  they  would  not  turn 
them  off?  A.  You  misunderstood  me.  I  did  not  say  Dr.  Thomp¬ 
son  would  not  co-operate. 

Q.  He  did?  A.  He  did  so  far  as  his  authority  went.  • 

Q.  How  was  it  then  ?  A.  Dr.  Thompson  did  not  hire  nor  discharge 
those  nurses,  and  I  must  say  that  Dr.  Babcock  was  to  some  extent 
indifferent  about  discharging  promptly  the  nurses  that  I  reported 
from  time  to  time.  I  have  no  personal  grievance  at  all.  That  is  a 
matter  that  I  never  did  discuss  with  him,  because  Dr.  Babcock  is 
usually  very  busy,  and  he  is  not  a  man  to  discuss  such  things  as 
that  any  way. 

Q.  When  he  was  talking  about  getting  these  nurses,  you  went  on 
and  did  not  get  the  nurses,  and  that  cook  you  told  him  about  and 
he  would  not  turn  him  off.  Did  you  make  that  with  any  good 
reason  ?  What  reason  did  you  think  he  had  in  your  own  mind  ?  A. 
I  could  give  an  opinion,  but  that  is  no  evidence,  and  I  did  not  see 
that  it  would  amount  to  much. 

0.  Why  do  you  think  he  acted  in  that  manner?  Why  didn’t  he 
do  something  when  you  asked  him?  A.  He  either  lost  sight  of  it, 
or  was  indifferent.  I  could  not  tell  you.  I  don’t  think  it  is  exactly 
just  to  ask  a  man  a  question  like  that,  in  my  position. 

0.  It  is  pretty  hard  on  you,  but  this  Committee  has  to  get  the 
facts,  and  the  Committee  has  thrown  guards  around  the  witnesses 
to  protect  them  as  far  as  possible?  A.  I  have  no  protection.  If  I 
commit  myself  like  that,  Dr.  Babcock  would  criticise  it. 

Q.  You  have  said  a  good  deal  I  would  imagine  if  I  was  in  his 


252 


position  I  would  criticise.  A.  I  haven’t  said  anything  except  what 
was  pulled  out.  From  the  beginning  I  have  objected  to  opinions, 
from  the  starting  of  the  giving  of  this  evidence. 

Q.  If  you  hadn’t  gave  your  opinions  we  would  not  have  gotten  at 
the  absolute  truth.  You  would  not  have  told  much.  You  said  in 
answer  to  a  question  of  some  of  these  gentlemen,  and  I  don’t  want 
to  ask  any  unjust  question,  but  this  was  suggested  by  some  other 
testimony  that  I  imagine  would  be  a  little  embarrassing?  A.  It  has 
been,  but  I  could  not  avoid  it. 

Q.  You  said  these  things  went  on  in  here  from  bad  management, 
bad  food  and  a  lack  of  system?  A.  Bad  food? 

Q.  These  things  you  referred  to — lack  of  system.  What  would 
you  suggest  as  to  changes  in  the  way  of  system?  You  said  you  did 
not  have  things  systemized,  and  that  Dr.  Thompson  would  co-operate, 
but  Dr.  Babcock  would  not.  What  would  you  suggeest?  A.  I 
would  suggest  that  we  have  more  nurses,  and  the  nurses  have  better 
discipline,  and  that  they  pay  attention  to  what  I  say. 

Q.  You  want  more  nurses  first?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  second,  you  want  better  men,  better  class  of  men?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  more  competent. 

Q.  Next,  give  you  in  your  position  more  authority?  A.  I  think 
I  ought  to  have  more  authority. 

Q.  So  that  you  could  employ  and  discharge?  A.  I  don’t  say  that, 
but  I  do  say  this  about  the  nurses.  We  ought  to  have  better  discip¬ 
line,  and  they  ought  to  obey  me.  When  I  give  instructions  they 
ought  to  carry  them  out. 

O.  In  the  big  institutions  they  have  a  superintendent  who  is 
responsible  for  everything,  or  he  delegates  it  down  to  some  subordi¬ 
nate  officer  next  in  rank,  something  of  that  kind,  whether  it  be  to 
hire  and  discharge  or  anything  else.  Do  you  think  he  ought  to  give 
you  the  right  to  hire  and  discharge?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  your  opinion  would  it  be  practical?  You  have  been  here 
and  in  touch  with  all  these  things.  Do  you  think  that  things  would 
go  better  on  your  ward  with  more  attendants  of  the  proper  quality? 
A.  And  discipline. 

Q.  You  could  discipline  them  if  they  were  turned  over  to  you? 
A.  I  know  that. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  that  if  you  paid  them  better  wages  you  would 
get  better  ones?  A.  We  would  get  better  men. 

Q.  You  would?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


253 


Q.  Where  do  these  fellows  sleep,  these  attendants?  A.  They 
sleep  on  the  wards. 

Q.  Their  sleeping  quarters  are  no  better  than  the  patients? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Aren’t  most  of  those  patients  very  poor  people?  Would  you 
judge  them  to  be  so?  A.  I  am  not  sure. 

Q.  You  spoke  about  the  question  of  restraints  just  now.  The  rule 
is  that  they  should  not  be  used,  that  an  attendant  should  not  put 
on  these,  that  he  should  never  put  on  these  without  instructions 
direct  from  the  physician  ?  A.  I  said  that  was  the  rule  at  that  time. 

Q.  It  is  not  the  rule  now?  A.  It  is  not  carried  out,  if  it  is  the 
rule. 

Q.  Strictly?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Suppose  you  were  on  duty  on  a  ward  and  a  patient  became 
violent,  do  you  think  it  would  be  a  better  system  to  send  out  and 
get  Dr.  Thompson,  and  that  fellow  violent,  and  tearing  everything 
up,  as  they  sometimes  do,  rather  than  that  the  nurse  should  exercise 
a  little  common  sense?  A.  I  think  that  is  a  very  good  idea.  They 
ought  to  report  the  matter,  and  they  ought  to  wait  for  the  physician 
to  decide  when  those  restraints  should  be  removed:  That  is  where 
the  mistake  is  made. 

Q.  It  seems  to  me  if  the  doctor  made  his  rounds  every  day,  if  he 
came  the  next  day,  and  thought  it  ought  to  come  off,  he  could  have 
the  nurse  take  it  off?  A.  Many  of  these  nurses  want  discretion  as 
to  when  the  restraint  should  be  taken  off. 

Q.  A  man  has  got  to  assume  some  responsibility  and  exercise  some 
judgment?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  main  thing  is  more  nurses  and  better  nurses?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  main  consideration  is  better?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  expect  to  remain  in  the  service  of  the  institution? 
A.  So  far  as  I  know. 

Mr.  Hardin — Don't  you  regard  the  meal  and  vegetables  furnished 
from  the  farm,  the  bacon,  beef  and  everything  more  wholesome 
than  than  that  is  sold?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Than  what  you  get  from  the  city  here  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  \ou  know  Mr.  Bunch.  Do  you  regard  him  as  a  good  business 
man  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  A  good  farmer?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  does  the  very  best  he  can?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  has  charge,  I  believe,  of  the  dairy?  A.  Yes,  sir,  he  has 
the  general  supervision  of  the  dairy. 


254 


Q.  Do  you  believe  he  would  tolerate  any  carelessness  or  anything 
of  that  kind  if  made  known  to  him?  A.  No. 

Mr.  Dick — Do  you  make  any  record  of  your  reports,  or  do  you 
make  them  verbally?  A.  Verbally. 

Q.  You  can’t  refer  to  them  any  other  time?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  There  is  no  record  of  it  at  all?  A.  No,  sir. 

The  Chairman — Has  it  been  the  custom  in  times  past  to  have 
regular  reports  filed  daily  by  you?  A.  No,  sir. 

0.  Do  you  know  whether  any  written  reports  are  sent  in  from 
your  wards?  A.  Reports  of  what? 

Q.  Of  daily  reports  as  to  conditions,  the  requisitions  you  make, 
etc.  ?  A.  No,  not  daily.  The  requisitions  come  in  regularly  once 
a  month,  and  emergency  ones  come  in  from  time  to  'time,  of  course, 
on  the  ward.  Is  that  what  you  want? 

Q.  That  is  one  thing.  A.  The  daily  reports  come  out  in  the  morn¬ 
ing.  The  nurses  make  out  the  reports  and  turn  them  over  right 
after,  as  to  the  number  of  patients  on  the  ward.  That  is  all. 

Q.  Do  you  make  that  now?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  Do  you  keep  a  permanent  record  ?  A.  I  make  it  out  in  a  book. 
I  keep  that.  I  turn  that  over  to  the  doctor,  and  he  copies  them  from 
my  book. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  what  becomes  of  it  after  the  doctor  gets 
it?  A.  I  keep  the  book,  make  it  out  every  day. 

Q.  As  I  understand,  there  is  no  complaint  of  the  supplies,  whether 
they  be  foodstuffs  or  clothing  or  others  as  they  are  supplied  to  the 
institution  out  of  the  storehouse?  A.  No  complaint.  Of  course, 
complaints  arise  from  different  departments  from  time  to  time,  yes. 
There  is  complaint,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  they  in  your  opinion  justifiable?  A.  Sometimes  they  are. 

Q.  Generally  speaking  you  would  say  the  goods  are  satisfactory 
as  bought?  A.  Yes,  sir,  generally  speaking. 

Q.  About  these  special  complaints?  A.  Sometimes  they  would 
get  hold  of  a  matter  that  was  a  little  tainted  or  something  like  that, 
and  there  would  be  complaint  about  that. 

Q.  No  more  than  there  would  be  in  any  line  of  business,  would 
there?  A.  No,  in  that  respect. 

Mr.  Hardin — I  want  to  remind  the  Regents  that  if  they  want  to 
ask  anything  they  can  do  so. 

Mr.  Sawyer — Do  you  remember  a  patient  you  had  here  in  this 
institution  by  the  name  of - ?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  do. 


255 


Q.  Did  he  ever  talk  to  you  about  the  affairs  of  this  institution 
after  he  began  to  get  better?  A.  The  affairs  of  the  institution? 

Q.  How  things  were  conducted  around  here?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  While  in  here  he  did  not?  A.  No,  he  never  mentioned  that 
matter  to  me. 

Q.  Did  he  complain?  A.  He  complained  about  being  kept  here, 
and  he  showed  me  some  letters  he  had  received  from  Dr.  Kester, 
and  a  reply  to  some  he  had  written  to  him. 

Q.  He  did  not  complain  about  the  fare  and  the  surroundings  to 
you  while  he  was  here?  A.  He  complained  about  some  furniture. 
He  wanted  a  bureau  in  his  room. 

Q.  Is  that  all  he  wanted?  A.  That  is  all  I  remember  he  com¬ 
plained  to  me  about  while  he  was  here. 

Q.  How  long  did  he  stay  here?  A.  I  don't  remember. 

Q.  Approximately?  A.  I  would  say  a  year,  maybe  longer. 

0.  He  did  not  complain  about  the  food  served  to  him?  A.  I 
don’t  think  he  ever  complained  to  me  about  his  food  while  here. 

Q.  Did  you  make  him  eat  in  the  left  hand  dining  room  or  the 
other  one?  I  believe  there  is  a  little  preference  in  the  dining  rooms? 
A.  I  don’t  have  the  assigning  of  them.  Dr.  Thompson  does  that, 
but  he  ate  in  the  small  pay  room. 

Q.  On  the  left  hand  side  as  you  go  to  the  main  hall?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  make  any  complaint  about  the  food?  A.  I  don’t 
remember  that  he  complained  to  me  about  the  food. 

Q.  Did  any  lawyer  talk  with  you  about  this  situation  out  here? 
A.  No. 

Q.  Did  anybody  else  talk  with  you  about  this  institution  out  here  ? 
A.  Anybody  else? 

Q.  On  the  outside,  as  to  the  affairs  out  here,  before  this  Commit¬ 
tee  got  up  here,  come  over  here  and  talk  with  you  about  it?  A. 
No.  I  have  not  been  interviewed  by  anybody,  not  at  all,  sir. 

Q.  Did  anybody  have  an  idea  what  you  were  going  to  testify 
this  morning?  A.  I  don’t  think  so.  They  may  have  had  an  idea, 
but  I  have  not  talked  to  anybody  to  tell  them  what  I  was  going  to 
testify,  because  I  did  not  know  myself.  I  did  not  know  myself  what 
I  was  going  to  be  asked. 

Mr.  Bunch— Mr.  Mitchell,  will  you  tell  to  the  Committee  as  near 

as  you  can  the  circumstances  surrounding  Mr.  -  asking 

for  a  suit  of  clothes  and  what  became  of  those  clothes  in  the  end. 

The  matter  was  not  brought  up  by  me  before?  A.  Mr.  - 

asked  me  for  some  clothes  and  I  made  a  requisition,  and  the  requisi- 


256 


tion  was  signed.  I  don’t  remember  the  ward.  He  was  probably 
a  second  ward  man,  and  I  sent  the  requisition  and  it  was  carried  to 
the  store  room,  and  I  don’t  remember  what  the  occurrence  was 
exactly,  I  don't  think  he  got  the  clothes  on  the  first  requisition.  It 
strikes  me  there  was  a  second  requisition,  but  he  did  finally  get  the 
clothes,  and  Mr.  Bunch  said  he  would  not  wear  the  clothes,  and 
he  said  if  he  did  not  wear  them  he  would  see  that  he  did  not  carry 
them  out  of  the  institution.  So,  when  he  got  ready  to  leave  the 
institution,  I  went  on  the  ward  and  told  him  that  I  wished  to  go 

through  his  trunk,  as  it  was  the  custom,  and  Mr.  - ,  he 

did  not  like  it.  He  showed  signs  that  he  did  not  like  it,  and  I 
told  him  it  was  the  custom,  and  he  finally  submitted  to  it,  and  I 
looked  through  his  trunk  and  told  him  I  would  have  to  take  out 
that  suit  of  clothes,  as  he  had  never  worn  them.  If  he  had  worn 
them  we  would  have  let  him  carry  them  out,  but  as  he  had  never 
worn  them,  I  would  have  to  keep  them  in  the  institution.  That 
is  the  sum  and  substance  of  it  as  I  recall  it. 

Mr.  Sawyer — Did  he  wear  them?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  He  left  them?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  why?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  opinion  ?  A.  I  knew  he  had  not  worn  them. 

Q.  Why  did  you  think  he  did  not  wear  them?  A.  I  don’t  think 
they  were  good  enough  for  him.  I  had  never  seen  him  wrear  the 
suit. 

Mr.  Bunch — Were  those  clothes  made  by  the  institution  or  bought 
clothes?  A.  Bought. 

Q.  Better  than  the  average?  A.  Yes,  sir,  they  were. 

Air.  Sawyer — Was- he  paying  anything  to  stay  in  here?  A.  I 
don’t  know. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  whether  he  paid?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  A  beneficiary?  A.  I  don’t  know,  sir. 

Air.  Dick — Do  you  generally  know  who  the  pay  patients  are? 
A.  Unless  I  ask  about  it. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  whether  the  complaints  came  more  from  the  pay 
patients  or  the  others?  A.  Well,  I  would  say  they  came  more 
from  the  men  who  ate  in  the  pay  room. 

Q.  Do  you  know  why  that  is?  A.  They  are  men  of  better  mind. 
They  have  got  more  presence  of  mind.  They  are  better  than  those 
that  stay  in  the  mess  hall.  Those  in  the  mess  hall  are  not  as  intelli¬ 
gent  as  a  rule  as  those  that  eat  in  the  pay  room. 


257 


Mr.  Hardin — A  good  deal  was  said  about  bathing.  If  a  patient 
wants  to  take  a  bath  once,  twice  or  three  times  a  week,  or  would 
they  have  to  make  a  request?  A.  A  patient  can  go  in  and  draw  the 
water  and  take  a  bath  whenever  he  feels  like  it,  unless  it  is  one  of 
the  epileptics.  They  are  not  supposed  to  bathe. 

Q.  Sometimes  they  don’t  like  to  be  bathed?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Not  only  insane  people,  but  many  that  are  sane  are  that  way? 
A.  It  often  happens  that  way. 

Dr.  Thompson,  recalled,  testified  as  follows: 

Mr.  Carey — I  want  to  ask  you  about  the  assault  on - ,  was 

that  in  1894  or  1895?  A.  I  think — that  time  is  confusing.  That 
man  had  been  here  two  or  three  or  four  times,  and  I  think  the  date 
must  have  been  one  of  the  previous  admissions. 

Q.  Was  it  before  or  after  Dr.  Babcock  came  here?  A.  After. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  the  circumstances  of  that  assault?  A.  As  I 
learned  it,  the  nurse  attacked  him  and  bruised  him  up.  I  remember 
seeing  him  in  the  afternoon.  As  I  remember  it,  it  occurred  after 
dinner,  and  as  I  was  going  off  on  an  early  morning  train  the  next 
morning,  I  told  Mr.  Mitchell  to  call  Dr.  Babcock's  attention  to  the 
case. 

Q.  Did  you  look  into  the  case  when  you  came  back  ?  A.  I  found 
out  that  the  nurse  had  attacked  him  apparently  without  a  cause. 

Q.  Did  you  make  any  report  of  it  to  Dr.  Babcock  after  you 
looked  into  it?  A.  Not  after  I  asked  Mr.  Mitchell  if  he  reported  it. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  have  any  conference  with  Dr.  Babcock  about 
that?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  did  the  nurse  remain  here?  A.  Several  months. 
I  don’t  remember,  three,  four  or  five  months. 

Q.  Was  he  discharged  or  did  he  quit  ?  A.  He  quit,  as  well  as  I 
remember. 

Mr.  Sawyer — I  wanted  to  ask  the  doctor  this.  If  that  nurse  had 
assaulted  this  patient  to  the  extent  that  has  been  described  here  in 
the  testimony  as  I  heard  it  yesterday  by  Mr.  Mitchell,  he  being 
stamped  in  the  face  with  his  shoe,  he  must  have  been  badly  bruised  ? 
A.  Slight  bruise  on  the  face  as  well  as  I  remember,  amount  probably 
to  a  facial  cut. 

Q.  In  your  opinion  why  was  he  retained  in  the  institution,  in  the 
service  of  the  institution,  after  acting  in  that  manner  with  one  of 
his  patients?  A.  I  don’t  know.  As  I  asked  Mr.  Mitchell  to  attend 
to  it  on  my  going  off,  I  thought  Dr.  Babcock  bad  considered  it.  I 


17— A. 


258 


left  on  the  early  morning  train.  I  never  mentioned  to  the  doctor 
anything  about  it  when  I  came  back. 

Q.  You  have  charge  of  the  white  males,  have  you  not?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Although  you  saw  he  was  still  here  and  knew  he  had  assaulted 
the  patient  you  never  mentioned  it  to  Dr.  Babcock  at  all  on  your 
return?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  why  Dr.  Babcock  kept  him  on?  A.  No,  sir, 
I  do  not.  I  found  out  from  Mr.  Mitchell  that  he  had  reported  it. 

Q.  You  talked  with  Mr.  Mitchell?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  But  you  did  not  mention  it  to  the  Superintendent?  A.  Not  to 
Dr.  Babcock. 

Q.  Do  you  usually  discuss  anything  of  that  kind  that  happens  in 
the  institution  with  the  Superintendent?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  have  any  reason  to  believe  that  Dr.  Babcock  had  any 
peculiar  reason  why  he  should  retain  this  fellow  after  acting  that 
way?  A.  I  don’t  think  so.  I  don’t  think  it  was  any  favoritism. 
He  never  shows  any  favoritism. 

Q.  You  thought  he  ought  to  be  discharged?  A.  I  thought  he 
ought  to  be  discharged.  If  Dr.  Babcock  had  asked  me,  I  would 
have  said  that  he  ought  to  go,  but  in  my  position,  when  the  case 
w'as  reported,  I  did  not  consider  that  I  was  any  longer  responsible 
for  his  being  here. 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Mitchell  tell  you  that  he  had  reported  that?  Did 
he  tell  you  he  had  reported  it  to  Dr.  Babcock?  A.  I  don’t  know. 
I  don’t  remember  whether  he  did  or  not.  I  think  he  just  said, 
doctor  did  not  say  anything,  or  something  like  that. 

Q.  He  treated  it  in  a  light  way?  A.  Something  of  that  kind. 
I  don’t  remember  exactly.  That  was  my  impression. 

Q.  After  long  association  with  the  institution,  and  with  Dr. 
Babcock,  do  you  mean  to  say  that  he  generally  overlooks  such  acts 
as  that  without  looking  into  the  conduct  of  the  attendants?  A.  I 
don’t  mean  that,  sir,  that  he  overlooks  them.  As  far  as  I  can 
remember,  that  is  the  only  exception. 

Q.  That  one  case?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  fellow  staid  here  two  or  three  months?  A.  At  least  two 
or  three,  may  be  four.  I  don’t  remember  now. 

0.  Do  you  have  a  system  here  like  they  have  in  some  similar 
institutions  in  order  for  a  better  discipline  and  for  a  better  system, 
although  your  system  is  somewhat  questioned  by  some,  have  you  a 
way  where  these  attendants  have  been  discharged,  are  they  dis- 


259 


charged  summarily  or  are  they  given  a  chance?  A.  For  an  assault 
they  are  generally  discharged  without  any  chance  of  returning. 

Q.  He  did  not  do  that  in  this  case?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  that  strike  you  as  being  out  of  the  usual  order  or  peculiar  ? 
A.  It  was  unusual. 

Q.  Do  you  know  where  Johnson  is  now?  A.  He  lived  about 
Wagner,  Aiken  County.  That  was  his  home.  I  don’t  know 
whether  he  is  there  now  or  not. 

Mr.  Harrison — I  want  to  inquire  about  the  subject  of  the  amuse¬ 
ments  here.  I  believe  you  stated  that  last  summer  you  had  baseball 
games  here  by  the  patients,  and  also  had  women,  white  women,  as 
witnesses  at  the  games.  Now,  doctor,  on  whose  initiative  was  that 
taken  up?  A.  As  well  as  I  remember,  Mr. - suggested  it. 

Q.  How  were  the  funds  for  the  balls  and  bats  and  mits  and 
masks,  etc.,  raised  ?  A.  Some  bv  subscription,  I  think.  I  think 
some  of  the  patients  took  up  the  thing,  and  also  a  friend  from  the 
outside  sent  something. 

Q.  Did  the  institution  furnish  any  of  that  stuff  itself?  A.  Only 
the  suits. 

Q.  Only  the  suits?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  make  a  private  contribution  yourself  to  that  fund, 
doctor?  A.  I  did  on  different  occasions,  sometimes. 

Q.  In  other  words,  you  made  a  money  contribution?  A.  Yes,  sir, 
personally. 

Q.  Out  of  your  private  purse?  A.  Yes,  sir,  small  amounts.  It 
was  not  very  much. 

Q.  You  say  the  institution  furnished  the  suits.  Who  got  up 
that — the  suits?  A.  Dr.  Saunders  and  myself  got  the  matrons  to 
have  them  marked,  and  cut  off,  and  elastics  put  to  the  legs  of  the 
pants. 

Q.  Regular  baseball  suits?  A.  Regular  baseball  suits,  done  bv 
the  patients,  some  of  the  employees  in  the  female  department. 

Q.  That  part  was  done  by  yourself  and  Dr.  Saunders?  A.  Mr. 

• - asked  if  we  could  get  them. 

Q.  Did  she  desire  to  contribute  out  of  her  own  private  purse? 
A.  I  think  she  did. 

Q.  Did  she  do  it  ?  A.  I  think  she  contributed  once  or  twice,  and 
told  him  in  case  he  needed  it,  she  would  do  so  again. 

Q.  As  to  the  dances,  doctor,  who  is  present  at  those  dances  among 
the  officers  of  the  institution  ?  A.  The  matrons  and  the  supervisor 


26o 


are  always  required  to  be  there,  and  as  many  of  the  physicians  as 
can. 

Q.  You  attend,  do  you  not?  A,  As  often  as  I  can,  a  portion  of 
almost  every  night. 

Q.  Does  Dr.  Saunders  attend?  A.  She  takes  an  active  part  in  it. 

Q.  Does  the  Superintendent  attend?  A.  Not  recently,  to  my 
knowledge. 

Q.  How  long  since?  A.  Not  for  some  time  back.  I  could  not 
say  positively  how  long.  It  has  been  some  time  past  since  I  have 
seen  him. 

Q.  A  year?  A.  Probably  so. 

Q.  Two  years?  A.  I  will  not  say  two  years;  not  within  the  past 
year,  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Do  any  of  the  Board  of  Regents  ever  attend  those  dances, 
sir?  A.  I  don’t  remember  seeing  any  of  them  there.  It  is  possible 
they  might  have  been  there,  but  I  don’t  remember. 

Q.  Is  that  dance  a  diversion  for  your  patients?  A.  We  consider 
it  so. 

Q.  Do  you  think  they  enjoy  it?  A.  They  certainly  do,  a  portion 
of  them. 

Q.  You  have  a  graphophone  on  the  wards,  I  believe.  That  is 
owned  by  the  institution,  I  believe?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  the  institution  purchase  it  ?  A.  That  is  my  understanding. 

Q.  Do  you  say  it  is  carried  about  from  ward  to  ward?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Do  the  patients  enjoy  that?  A.  They  seem  to  enjoy  it  very 
much. 

Q.  Have  you  cards,  playing  cards?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  they  furnished  by  the  institution?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  understand,  then,  that  the  dances  and  the  graphophone — you 
have  only  one  I  believe?  A.  One  only. 

Q.  And  the  playing  cards  are  the  only  amusements  that  the 
institution  furnishes  at  all  ?  A.  All  I  can  recollect  at  present. 

Mr.  Hardin — Do  you  allow  male  patients  to  round  dance  with 
the  females?  A.  No,  sir,  neither  nurses  nor  patients.  The  round 
dances  are  with  the  female  nurses  or  the  female  patients. 

Q.  I  don’t  ask  with  regard  to  the  nurses,  the  male  patients  and 
the  female  patients?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  did  not  allow  them  to  round  dance  together?  A.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Harrison — Dr.  Thompson,  there  was  something  said  yester¬ 
day  about  walks,  and  it  was  stated  in  the  daily  papers  that  the 


patients  were  taken  to  walk.  Is  that  true?  A.  that  is  misleading. 
The  only  walks  they  take  is  walking  around  in  the  yard. 

Q.  Is  that  done  themselves,  or  is  it  done  at  the  instance  of  the 
attendants?  A.  In  the  female  side  they  walk  them  around  a  good 
deal.  The  female  nurses  walk  them  around  a  good  deal,  but  it  is  not 
done  on  the  male  side. 

Mr.  Hardin — Have  the  nurses  time  to  take  them  to  walk  ?  A.  As 
we  are  situated  now  in  the  male  department  we  could  not  do  it. 
The  walks  that  the  men  get  are  on  the  farm  and  around  the 
premises.  They  take  them  out  there  sometimes. 

Mr.  Dick — Is  that  done  systematically  every  day?  A.  Pretty 
regularly. 

The  Chairman — That  is  among  the  female  wards?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  room  here  to  provide  those  walks  for  the  male 
patients?  A.  Within  the  premises? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  It  would  benefit  them  even  an  acre  or  two.  If  they 
had  walks  around  it  would  benefit  them. 

Q.  If  you  had  more  nurses  could  you  partially  give  them  walks 
around  the  farm?  A.  With  plenty  of  nurses  we  could,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  your  opinion  can  the  Superintendent  of  this  institution 
effectively  direct  the  institution,  and  at  the  same  time  have  charge 
of  the  medical  treatment  of  one  of  the  divisions  of  the  institution? 
A.  I  don’t  see  how  it  can  be  done  as  it  should. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  is  reasonable  to  expect  Dr.  Babcock  to  give 
proper  supervision,  general  supervision,  of  this  institution,  and  at 
the  same  time  try  to  give  medical  attention  that  is  necessary  to  the 
colored  women  at  the  same  time,  doctor?  A.  No,  sir,  I  do  not. 

Q.  How  long  has  be  been  doing  that?  A.  It  was  between  1895 
and  1900.  I  am  not  positive  as  to  what  time. 

Q.  About  eight  years?  A.  At  least  eight  or  nine. 

Q.  I  understand  that  in  addition  to  that  he  has  charge  of  the 
Dick’s  cottage  where  some  of  the  women  patients  are?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  in  addition  has  designed  and  overseen  the  construction 
of  the  new  buildings?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  For  the  last  number  of  years?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Has  he  had  charge  of  another  building  where  there  are  some 
of  the  female  patients,  whites?  A.  The  Dix  cottage  and  the  new 
building. 

Q.  How  many  whites  in  the  new  building?  A.  I  have  not  heard 
Dr.  Saunders  say.  I  think  two  wards  probably.  They  accommo¬ 
date  down  there  probably  forty  or  fifty.  I  am  not  positive  of  that. 


262 


Q.  How  many  white  patients  in  the  Dix  cottage?  A.  There 
are  accommodations  there  for  from  twenty  to  thirty. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many  patients  are  in  the  colored  women's 
department?  A.  About  316,  somewhere  along  there.  I  think  316 
it  is  reported. 

Q.  He  is  attending  physician  for  one  building  where  there  are 
over  three  hundred?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Another  where  there  are  forty?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Another  where  there  are  between  fifty  and  sixty?  A.  Yes,  sir, 
probably. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  that  an  attempt  to  do  such  work  is  enough 
to  break  down  the  health  of  any  man?  A.  I  do. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  the  time  Dr.  Babcock  spent  on  his  vacation 
last  year  in  Europe  was  very  well  deserved  and  a  much  needed 
vacation?  A.  I  do. 

Mr.  Carey — How  does  it  happen  that  he  took  charge  of  these  other 
buildings,  scarcity  of  physicians?  A.  As  I  understand,  it  was  his 
offer  to  the  board. 

Q.  Were  you  scarce  with  physicians  here?  Could  any  of  the 
rest  take  that  on  in  addition  to  what  you  are  already  doing?  A.  It 
would  have  been  overloading,  just  as  it  has  been  with  him. 

Q.  Do  you  think  if  any  of  the  rest  of  you  were  in  charge  of  the 
colored  women  it  would  be  too  much  for  you?  A.  Yes,  sir,  just 
the  same  as  he  has. 

Q.  Did  you  get  a  copy  of  the  rules?  A.  The  old  rules. 

Q.  Were  there  any?  A.  None  except  thost  “don’ts”  and  “nots.” 

The  Chairman — What  daily  reports  are  now  made  to  you  by 
those  under  you  in  your  department  ?  A.  The  supervisors  make 
a  report  to  me,  first  the  nurses  to  the  supervisors  and  the  super¬ 
visors  to  the  doctors. 

Q.  What  color  paper  is  that  slip?  A.  The  nurses  blue  and  the 
forms  yellow. 

Q.  Printed  ones?  A.  No,  sir,  I  was  mistaken  as  to  the  forms 
being  yellow.  They  are  white.  The  physician’s  report  is  yellow. 

Q.  This  is  the  blue  report?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  one  made  to  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  This  reports  the  number  of  patients,  those  sick  in  bed,  feeble 
patients,  those  taking  meals  in  the  dining  room  and  on  the 
wards,  those  employed  at  work  in  the  dining  room,  and  various 
other  particulars  here,  number  at  chapel  service,  assaults  from 
patients,  repairs  needed. 


263 


Q.  Those  were  filled  out  by  the  nurses  and  sent  to  you?  A. 
Sent  to  the  supervisor. 

Q.  What  did  the  supervisor  do  with  it?  A.  He  copies  it  into  a 
book  and  brings  it  to  me. 

Q.  What  does  he  do  with  the  slip?  A.  He  destroys  it. 

Q.  What  becomes  of  the  record,  he  keeps  it  in  the  report  to  you  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  what  way?  A.  In  the  book. 

Q.  He  brings  that  book  up  to  you?  A.  Yes,  sir,  daily. 

Q.  What  do  you  do  with  the  report?  A.  I  don’t  do  anything. 

Q.  You  look  it  over?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  copy  it?  A.  Not  now. 

Q.  You  send  the  book  to  the  supervisor?  A.  He  gets  it  next 
morning. 

Q.  Does  that  report  in  any  shape  go  to  the  Superintendent,  Dr. 
Babcock?  A.  No,  sir,  it  does  not,  unless  there  is  some  special 
item  in  it.  That  is  filed  as  a  record. 

Q.  Like  what  ?  A.  Like  it  is  reported  that  some  one  has  been 
abused,  or  something  like  that. 

Q.  How  often  is  a  special  report  made?  A.  Very  seldom. 

Q.  Once  a  month  ?  A.  According  to  the  way  the  patients  are 
reported  as  being  maltreated  if  it  comes  for  that. 

Q.  Will  it  average  once  a  month?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  think  it  will 
average  oftener  than  that. 

Q.  Probably  two  or  three  ?  A.  Probably  twice. 

Q.  Not  always  abuse?  A.  Yes,  sir,  anything  very  important 
report  oftener  than  twice  a  month. 

Q.  Do  you  make  that  verbally?  A.  Yes,  sir,  make  it  verbally. 

Q.  Where  do  you  make  that  ?  Where  is  the  Superintendent’s 
office?  A.  At  his  home. 

Q.  You  go  to  his  house  and  make  the  report?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  the  only  office  prepared  for  him?  A.  Yes,  sir,  his  office 
is  at  his  house. 

Q.  Is  any  o'ther  report  made  to  you?  A.  No,  sir,  except  verbal 
reports  through  the  day  if  anything  springs  up. 

Q.  And  the  yellow  memoranda,  who  makes  that  out?  A.  That 
is  made  out  from  the  book  that  the  nurses  keep.  That  comes  up  in 
a  book  there  from  the  supervisor. 

Q.  The  same  book  just  referred  to?  A.  Yes.  sir. 

Q.  Who  makes  it?  A.  The  physician. 

Q.  From  each  ward  you  make  it  out?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


264 


Q.  The  medical  reports,  etc.,  in  your  ward?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  made  that  out  this  morning?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  see  at  the  bottom  a  space  for  the  approval  of  the  Superin¬ 
tendent.  Do  you  take  that  to  the  Superintendent?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  “Care  should  be  taken,’’  etc.  Isn't  that  an  instruction  to  take 
it  to  the  Superintendent?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  since  that  has  been  done?  A.  I  don’t  think  it  was 
ever  done. 

Q.  Did  not  the  Superintendent  have  to  act  upon  that?  A.  When 
he  resided  in  the  building  here  he  had  access  to  it,  and  it  was  never 
conformed  to,  so  when  he  moved  over  we  did  not  attempt  to  keep  it 
up  by  sending  it  over  there.  What  I  mean  is  that  Dr.  Babcock  once 
resided  in  the  center  building. 

Q.  When  was  that?  A.  That  was  when  he  first  came,  first  four, 
five  or  six  years,  probably  three  or  four. 

Q.  He  has  not  lived  here  for  ten  years?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Since  that  time  he  has  not  seen  this  report?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Who  signs  the  report  “approved’’?  A.  I  generally  sign  it  for 
the  Superintendent.  Sometimes  just  send  it  out  and  let  the  man¬ 
ager  get  it.  Sometimes  it  is  not  signed  at  all. 

Q.  You  act  for  the  Superintendent?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  act  for  the  Superintendent  in  this  respect  for  the 
other  departments?  A.  White  women. 

Q.  Colored  women?  A.  Their  reports  are  all  made  on  the  same 
sheet,  on  the  same  or  two. 

Q.  You  are  the  official  acting  for  the  Superintendent  when  you 
sign  this  written  report  of  repairs  needed?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  report  do  you  make  to  the  Superintendent  of  repairs 
needed  ?  A.  None. 

Q,  Do  you  make  any  verbal  reports?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  ever  call  his  attention  to  repairs  needed?  A.  Some¬ 
times  I  go  and  speak  to  him  about  some  special  repair  that  is 
needed. 

Q.  Have  you  called  his  attention  to  the  repairs  needed  in  your 
wards?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  To  the  unsanitary  conditions?  A.  I  don’t  think  I  mentioned 
their  unsanitary  condition.  I  told  him  they  needed  repairs  badly. 

Q.  And  the  floors?  A.  Yes,  sir.  . 

Q.  And  the  plastering?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Whitewashing?  A.  I  don’t  remember  saying  anything  about 
the  whitewashing,  sir. 


265 

Q.  You  did  not  call  attention  to  the  walls?  A.  I  told  him  I 
wanted  so  much  done. 

Q.  You  made  those  repairs  continually  for  some  years  occas¬ 
ionally?  A.  Not  frequently,  but  occasionally  . 

0.  You  have  taken  over  this  matter?  It  is  not  under  the  special 
direction  of  the  Superintendent?  A.  Which  matter? 

Q.  Of  approving  these  repairs?  A.  They  were  always  done  in 
the  same  way  in  the  office  even  when  he  was  on  this  side,  when 
he  had  access  to  them  without  going  out  of  his  office.  It  has  always 
been  done  in  the  same  way. 

Q.  I  see  here  the  assistant  physician’s  daily  report.  Is  that  the 
report  that  you  keep?  A.  We  kept  it  at  one  time. 

Q.  It  is  not  now  kept?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  since  it  has  been  kept?  A.  Something  over  two 
years. 

Q.  Why  was  it  discontinued  ?  A.  When  we  had  two  assistant 
physicians,  Dr.  Sims,  we  kept  it  up.  After  she  left,  I  think  in 
November,  1907, the  clerical  work  in  the  office  got  very  heavy  for  me, 
and  I  dropped  it  off  my  side  and  then  it  was  not  kept  on  the  female 
side.  I  had  more  clerical  work  than  I  could  do,  and  I  did  not  keep 
it  up. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  with  it  when  you  did  not  keep  it  up?  A. 
Filed  it  away  in  the  office  here. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  show  it  to  the  Superintendent?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  ever  examine  it?  A.  I  cannot  recollect  that  I  ever 
saw  him  examine  it.  They  would  lay  on  my  desk  for,  say,  a  month 
and  then  would  bundle  them  up  in  a  package,  or  might  keep  them 
two  months  on  the  table. 

Q.  Has  the  Superintendent  ever  asked  for  it  since  you  stopped 
keeping  it?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  reports  made?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  These  are  the  only  ones  that  are  or  ever  have  been  used  for 
the  last  several  years?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  reports  are  made  to  you  of  restraints  used  on  your 
wards?  A.  That  is  not  made  regularly. 

Q.  Ts  it  the  rule  of  the  institution  that  it  should  be  made  to  you? 
A.  That  is  the  understanding.  No  restraint  is  to  be  put  upon  a 
patient  unless  it  is  reported  to  the  supervisor  or  the  physician. 

Q.  Why  isn’t  that  rule  observed?  A.  It  is  just  one  of  those  things 
that  has  just  grown.  Our  constant  change  of  nurses,  and  the  nurses 


266 


being  those  kind  that  get  indifferent,  and  they  don’t  report,  and  you 
cannot  impress  upon  them  the  importance  of  it. 

Q.  A  lack  of  discipline?  A.  It  must  be. 

Q.  This  is  rather  interesting,  especially  as  I  understand  it,  you 
say  that  the  laxity  of  discipline  is  due  largely  to  the  impossibility 
with  the  small  number  at  your  command  to  keep  up  to  the  mark? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  gradually  during  the  last  few  years  carelessness 
and  indifference  have  grown  up?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  has  resulted  in  a  feeling  on  your  part,  has  it,  of  power¬ 
lessness  of  improving  the  conditions?  A.  Not  exactly  powerless¬ 
ness. 

Q.  I  mean  under  present  conditions?  A.  Under  the  present  con¬ 
dition  of  affairs. 

Mr.  Sawyer — The  chairman  asked  you  if  you  were  practically 
powerless  as  to  making  improvement  of  these  conditions  here  of 
discipline,  etc.  I  ask,  if  under  the  present  management,  it  is  impossi¬ 
ble?  A.  I  did  not  say  under  the  present  administration,  under  the 
present  condition  of  things,  and  I  answered  yes  to  your  question. 

Q.  Are  you  practically  powerless,  and  you  answered  affirmatively 
to  the  question  the  chairman  asked.  You  have  gone  on  to  say  that 
this  lack  of  discipline  and  inefficiency  has  grown  up  on  account 
of  not  having  sufficient  assistance,  etc.  You  say  that  all  these 
different  reports  have  dropped  out.  I  wish  to  ask  if  you  are  prac¬ 
tically  powerless  to  improve  that  under  the  present  administration 
and  management?  A.  No,  not  that.  I  think  it  could  be  improved 
under  the  present  administration. 

Q.  You  think  it  is  possible  under  the  present  administration?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman — You  don’t  lay  it  to  the  doors  of  the  administra¬ 
tion,  but  to  the  conditions?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sawyer — Somebody  must  be  responsible.  That  is  certain. 
Somebody  must  be  responsible  for  this  lack  of  system  and  lack  of 
discipline  that  you  testify  to.  When  you  got  through  testifying, 
you  testified  that  there  was  lack  of  discipline  and  lack  of  system. 
Who  is  responsible  for  that  lack?  Is  it  Dr.  Babcock,  or  is  it  Dr. 
Babcock  and  his  machine  down  there.  Dr.  Thompson,  Dr.  Saunders, 
Mr.  Mitchell  and  all  the  attendants,  or  is  it  one  doctor  or  all  equally 
responsible  in  your  respective  places?  A.  I  think  it  is  due  partly 
to  all  of  us. 

Q.  It  kind  of  grew  on  you  because  you  did  not  have  the  proper 


267 

facilities?  You  haven’t  had  enough  help  of  the  right  kind ?  A.  That 
is  the  way  I  feel  about  it. 

The  Chairman — Have  you  felt  that  you  had  the  proper  support 
and  encouragement  from  those  above  you?  A.  Not  along  that 
line. 

Q.  That  is  to  say,  the  Superintendent,  the  Board  of  Regents  and 
the  Legislature?  A.  I  feel  that  there  is  not  enough  touch.  I  think 
if  they  could  only  have  seen  the  thing  we  could  have  gotten  help. 

Q.  Do  you  have  any  conference  between  the  heads  of  depart¬ 
ments  and  the  Superintendent?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  that  would  be  very  helpful?  A.  I  do.  That 
is  exactly  what  I  am  speaking  of. 

Q.  There  seems  to  be  a  lack  of  co-operation  ?  A.  I  want  them  to 
know  exactly  what  is  going  on,  touch.  That  is  what  I  mean  by 
touch. 

Q.  You  think  if  the  Superintendent  and  the  Board  of  Regents 
had  known  more  definitely  about  the  conditions  in  the  wards  they 
would  have  remedied  them?  A.  I  believe  so. 

Q.  You  have,  however,  kept  them  informed  of  these  conditions, 
have  you  not?  A.  I  have  kept  the  Superintendent. 

Mr.  Hardin — You  sometimes  act  as  Superintendent,  do  you  not? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  you  were  acting  as  Superintendent  did  you  comply 
with  the  rules?  A.  In  making  up  statements? 

Q.  The  question  as  asked  by  the  Chairman?  A.  No,  sir,  there 
was  no  one  to  make  out  my  report. 

Q.  There  was  no  report  made  at  all?  A.  The  same  old  reports 
from  the  wards  and  the  supervisors. 

Q.  Wouldn’t  it  require  more  clerical  help  to  look  after  these 
matters?  A.  A  good  deal  more. 

Q.  And,  after  all,  the  whole  trouble  is  due  largely  to  the  lack 
of  proper  finances  in  your  opinion?  A.  Yes,  sir,  that  will  cover 
the  whole  thing. 

Q.  You  are  a  very  hard  worked  man,  T  know.  You  are  a  very 
hard  worked  man,  and  it  would  not  be  safe  for  you  to  take  any 
more  work?  A.  I  don’t  know  that  I  can. 

Mr.  Harrison — In  reply  to  a  question  from  Dr.  Taylor  yesterday, 
if  I  am  not  right.  I  want  you  to  correct  it.  You  spoke  of  a  tour  of 
inspection  that  Dr.  Ray  made  through  the  white  male  wards?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  nature  of  the  inspection,  doctor?  A.  As  well 


268 


as  I  remember,  I  took  the  doctor  through  one  story,  and  I  think  I 
took  both  through  the  Taylor  building  and  through  another  story. 
I  know  I  took  Dr.  Ray,  but  I  am  not  certain  as  to  Dr.  Taylor.  The 
trip  was  made  through  one  story  of  the  building  and  back  through 
another  story. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  that  was  reported  to  the  Board  of 
Regents,  the  circumstances  of  that  tour,  whether  a  report  was 
made?  A.  They  made  their  report. 

0.  They  made  their  report?  A.  I  happened  to  be  present  talking 
to  the  Superintendent. 

Q.  Both  Dr.  Taylor  and  Dr.  Ray  made  reports  to  the  Board  of 
Regents?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  nature  of  that  report,  do  you  remember?  A.  I 
don’t  remember  any  words.  Dr.  Taylor,  I  remember,  made  a  report 
that  he  found  things  in  a  condition  in  the  white  male  department 
that  needed  attention,  and  to  have  that  corrected  as  soon  as  possible 
or  at  once,  or  something  like  that. 

Q.  Dr.  Ray  also  made  a  report?  A.  Yes,  sir,  but  I  don’t  remem¬ 
ber  his  report,  because  Dr.  Taylor  was  more  emphatic  because  I 
called  his  special  attention  to  some  things. 

Q.  Dr.  Ray’s  report,  do  you  remember  whether  it  confirmed  Dr. 
Taylor’s  or  not?  A.  I  think  Dr.  Ray  went  through  first  as  well  as 
I  remember,  sir. 

Q.  He  went  through  first?  A.  He  went  through  one  month  and 
Dr.  Taylor  the  next. 

Q.  They  were  executive  Regents  that  month?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  remember,  however,  that  Dr.  Ray  did  make  a  report? 
A.  Yes,  sir.  It  is  always  customary  for  the  executive  Regent  to 
make  a  report. 

Q.  You  don’t  recollect  whether  Dr.  Ray  made  a  report,  or  do  you 
recall  whether  he  made  a  report  as  to  the  condition  of  the  building? 
A.  I  don't  know.  It  is  very  likely  he  did.  I  remember  I  called 
his  attention  to  the  condition  of  the  building  as  being  bad. 

Q.  Do  you  read  the  minutes  of  the  executive  session  of  the  Board 
of  Regents?  A.  No,  sir. 

0.  You  do  not?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  access  to  them?  A.  No,  sir.  I  could  ask  Mr.  Bunch 
for  it. 

Q.  If  you  wished  to  read  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Are  you  supposed  to  make  any  report  to  the  Board  of  Regents  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  the  Superintendent  always  makes  a  report  to  the  board. 


269 


Q.  What  is  the  feeling?  Is  there  any  feeling  of  illwill  by  the 
patients  towards  the  officers  of  the  institution  in  any  way  ?  A.  I 
think  there  is  a  feeling  amongst  them  on  my  side.  I  can’t  say 
anything  as  to  it  amongst  the  others.  We  feel  that  we  don’t  see 
the  Superintendent  and  the  Board  of  Regents  as  often  as  we  should. 

Q.  Officers  or  patients?  A.  Patients. 

Q.  In  case  a  patient  requests  to  be  discharged,  what  answer 
would  be  given  him?  A.  It  would  be  submitted  to  the  Superintend¬ 
ent  or  the  Board  of  Regents,  if  the  Superintendent  is  not  willing 
to  decide  himself.  That  is  my  answer. 

Q.  You  submit  it  to  the  Superintendent  or  the  Board  of  Regents  ? 
A.  To  the  Superintendent,  and  if  he  is  not  willing  to  act  on  it,  the 
Board  of  Regents  will  act. 

0.  Is  that  the  way?  A.  Yes,  sir.  Sometimes  I  take  it  right  to 
the  Superintendent,  but  as  a  general  thing  if  a  patient  says  he  wants 
to  be  discharged,  I  tell  them  they  must  wait  until  the  Board  of 
Regents  meets,  and  I  tell  the  Superintendent,  and  if  he  is  not  willing 
to  act,  he  will  take  it  to  the  Board  of  Regents,  and  let  them  take  it 
up  at  one  of  their  meetings.  When  a  request  is  submitted  the 
Superintendent  sometimes  acts,  but  he  directs  that  we  wait  for  the 
Board  of  Regents  as  a  general  thing. 

Mr.  Hardin — It  is  rather  a  common  thing  for  all  heads  to  be 
criticised,  presidents,  governors,  all  representative  men  in  authority 
at  the  head?  They  are  always  more  or  less  criticised,  are  they  not? 
A.  I  think  so,  yes,  sir. 

An  adjournment  was  thereupon  had  until  half-past  three  P.  M. 


Columbia,  S.  C.,  Friday  afternoon. 
Pursuant  to  adjournment  the  Commission  met  this  afternoon  at 
the  State  Hospital  for  the  Insane. 

Present :  The  members  of  the  Committee. 

Dr.  E.  B.  Saunders,  being  duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows : 

Mr.  Harrison — You  say  your  name  is?  A.  E.  B.  Saunders. 

Q.  What  is  your  age?  A.  25  years  old. 

Q.  What  was  your  preparation  before  coming  to  this  institution? 
A.  Medical,  literary,  or  what? 

Q.  Medical.  A.  I  was  four  years  at  the  Charleston  Medical  Col¬ 
lege. 


270 


Q.  Did  you  graduate  with  honors  ?  A.  I  was  first  honor  graduate. 

Q.  After  that  you  came  direct  to  this  institution?  A.  I  did  within 
four  days  after  graduation. 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  describe  the  duties  of  your  position  here? 
A.  As  I  understand  it,  I  am  assistant  physician  in  charge  of  the 
white  female  department,  except  the  Dick’s  cottage. 

Q.  Are  you  in  charge  of  the  patients  in  the  new  building?  A. 
Yes. 

Q.  What  office  have  you  ?  A.  I  am  physician. 

Q.  Office?  A.  I  have  no  office. 

O.  Office  room?  A.  I  have  no  office  room.  I  work  in  the  general 
office. 

O.  You  have  a  desk?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Conveniently  arranged?  A.  It  could  be  better,  but  I  am  very 
well  satisfied  as  it  is. 

Q.  Have  you  a  filing  case  of  any  sort?  A.  For  filing? 

Q.  Is  there  any  system  of  filing  according  to  the  modern  methods  ? 
A.  Filing  what? 

Q.  Reports.  A.  Reports  of  what  kind? 

Q.  From  nurses,  and  reports  from  supervisors?  A.  No,  I  have 
no  system  of  filing. 

Q.  It  is  not  possible  under  the  circumstances  ?  A.  I  guess  it  could 
be  done. 

Q.  It  could  be  done?  A.  Yes,  sir,  but  I  must  say  T  would  have 
to  have  help. 

Q.  Under  the  circumstances  it  is  not  possible?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  medical  assistance  is  given?  A.  Two  physicians. 

Q.  To  you,  have  you  any  medical  assistance?  A.  I  have  no 
assistant,  as  far  as  a  physician  goes,  and  I  have  not  many  nurses. 

Q.  I  am  not  after  that.  The  point  I  am  trying  to  get  is,  have 
you  an  assistant  physician  under  you?  A.  I  have  an  assistant,  a 
matron. 

Q.  You  are  really  the  only  physician  on  your  ward?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  other  place  that  you  can  go  to  dictate  your 
letters  privately?  A.  I  dictate  letters  in  the  general  office. 

Q.  Are  you  subject  to  interruptions  in  that  office?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  what  way,  please?  A.  Answering  the  telephone,  occasion¬ 
ally  receiving  patients,  calls  from  nurses,  emergencies  of  various 
kinds. 

Q.  Visitors  to  the  institution?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  effect  does  that  have  upon  the  efficiency  of  your  work? 


271 


A.  I  don’t  know.  I  have  never  known  what  it  was  to  work  without 
it.  I  don’t  know  what  I  could  do  without  it.  The  two  vears  that 
I  have  worked  here  I  have  worked  with  it.  I  have  never  known  the 
work  without  it. 

Q.  Do  you  consider  that  working  at  an  advantage  or  at  a  disad¬ 
vantage?  A.  I  don’t  think  I  have  suffered  particularly  from  it. 

Q.  Your  work  has  not  suffered?  A.  I  don’t  see  that  it  has. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  your  office  and  your  office  arrangements,  etc., 
are  adequate?  A.  I  should  prefer  a  private  office,  so  that  my 
nurses  could  come  to  me  for  what  is  needed  without  going  in  with 
visitors  and  nurses  from  other  departments. 

Q.  Would  that  add  to  the  efficiency  of  your  service?  A.  A  great 
deal  to  my  pleasure. 

Q.  How  about  efficiency,  do  you  think  it  would  add  to  that  too? 
A.  Yes,  I  do. 

Q.  What  hours  are  you  on  duty?  A.  I  am  on  duty  from  nine 
until  nine. 

Q.  From  nine  to  nine?  A.  Later,  if  necessary.  All  calls  are 
attended  to. 

Q.  Describe  your  daily  duties  from  nine  to  nine?  A.  Today  is 
different  from  tomorrow  or  yesterday.  In  this  institution  where 
there  are  so  many  people  all  of  whom  by  nature  of  their  circum¬ 
stances  are  very  likely  to  have  accidents  of  various  kinds,  I  have 
no  regular  routine  duty  or  work  except  in  a  general  way.  I  attempt 
to  start  out  regularly  each  day,  but  often  I  am  interfered  with.  I 
endeavor  to  start  out  at  nine  o’clock  on  my  regular  morning  round. 
I  am  always  accompanied  by  servants  or  nurses.  It  takes  me  any¬ 
where  from  nine  to  twelve  or  one,  sometimes  earlier,  according 
to  the  amount  of  sickness  on  the  ward,  as  to  when  I  get  through. 
When  I  come  back,  if  I  have  any  examination  of  any  specimens  of 
anything,  I  do  that.  After  that  I  dictate  letters  to  Miss  Thompson, 
who  is  the  stenographer.  Then  it  is  about  dinner  time,  and  when 
I  finish,  start  again  on  the  rounds  about  four  o’clock. 

Q.  How  long  does  that  take?  A.  It  depends  altogether  on  the 
amount  of  work. 

Q.  What  is  the  usual  time?  A.  Three  or  three  and  a  half,  not 
so  long  as  the  morning,  but  it  is  not  unusual  for  it  to  be  longer.  I 
have  no  set  time.  I  stay  as  long  as  I  think  it  is  necessary. 

Q.  On  that  inspection  do  you  go  through  every  ward?  A.  I  do. 

Q.  And  you  look  into  the  rooms  ?  A.  I  don’t  look  into  every 
room. 


272 


Q.  You  look  into  the  rooms?  A.  Into  the  rooms  where  the 
patients  are.  Those  on  the  outside  are  not  allowed  to  stay  in  the 
rooms  and  lounge  on  the  beds. 

Q.  You  look  into  the  wash  rooms,  the  bathing  rooms?  A.  Not 
systematically. 

Q.  I  wasn’t  asking  that.  Do  you  do  it?  A.  O,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  recreation  have  you,  if  any?  A.  I  have  music.  I  am 
at  present  attempting  a  course  in  music. 

Q.  Your  music  would  have  to  be  before  nine  o’clock  in  the  morn¬ 
ing?  A.  No.  I  have  music  lessons  twice  a  week.  Dr.  Babcock 
has  kindly  allowed  me  two  hours,  usually  it  is  three  hours.  I  am 
taking  from  a  suburban  college. 

Q.  Where  are  your  quarters,  doctor?  A.  Above  this  floor. 

Q.  Are  they  pleasant?  A.  I  am  satisfied  with  it. 

Q.  Who  does  the  bacteriological  work  for  the  institution,  doctor? 
A.  Dr.  Griffin  is  the  bacteriologist. 

Q.  Does  he  do  your  work?  A.  No,  I  do  mine  myself. 

Q.  Have  you  a  proper  laboratory  for  doing  that?  A.  In  com¬ 
parison  with  some  it  might  not  be  so  very  good,  but  with  us  it  is  a 
great  deal  better  than  nothing. 

Mr.  Sawyer — This  bacteriological  work,  doctor,  that  you  do,  is  it 
in  the  nature  of  general  practice  that  you  do  it?  Do  you  do  it  to 
assist  you  in  diagnosis?  A.  For  diagnostic  purposes  altogether. 

Q.  Really,  you  would  not,  in  the  course  of  your  work  here,  you 
w'ould  not  have  a  great  deal  of  that  work  to  do?  A.  I  do  a  great 
deal  of  it. 

Q.  Is  it  necessary?  A.  Yes,  I  do  a  great  deal  of  it  necessarily. 

Q.  Necessarily  you  would  not  have  a  great  deal?  A.  I  don’t 
know.  You  can’t  say.  You  can  do  much  or  little. 

Q.  In  your  general  practice  you  go  ahead  and  do  it  yourself? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Taking  everything  into  consideration,  the  amount  of  money 
expended  there  and  other  things,  you  think  the  laboratory  answers 
fairly  well?  A.  Yes,  sir.  It  compares  favorably  with  the  other 
equipment  we  have. 

Q.  Just  now  the  question  was  asked  if  some  revolution  as  to  the 
medical  assistants  was  advantageous,  whether  she  could  do  this 
work  better  without  interruptions,  while  there  were  not  exactly  bad 
conditions,  whether  it  was  an  advantage  or  a  disadvantage  in  the 
work,  state  whether  or  not  a  doctor  working  under  normal  condi¬ 
tions  his  work  is  not  subject  to  interruptions  even  in  his  office?  I 


273 


want  to  ask  you  this,  is  it  an  advantage  or  a  disadvantage  for  a 
doctor  to  be  interrupted  by  the  telephone  or  by  patients,  is  it  a 
normal  thing  for  a  doctor  to  be  interrupted  by  the  telephone  or  by 
patitnts?  A.  I  think  so. 

Q.  Is  it  normal?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  a  doctor  is  interrupted?  A.  I  don’t  object  to  it  seriously. 

Q.  In  his  actual  practice  a  doctor,  like  any  other  business  man,  is 
liable  to  interruptions?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Harrison — I  want  to  ask  you  to  describe  how  the  patients 
under  your  care  are  received  into  the  institution.  We  have  the 
commitment  papers  which  have  been  put  in  evidence.  It  will  not  be 
necessary  to  go  into  that.  Have  you  a  receiving  room,  doctor?  A. 
I  have  a  receiving  ward. 

0.  Have  you  a  receiving  room  in  that  ward?  A.  No,  I  have  not. 

Q.  Have  you  scales  for  weighing  them?  A.  Yes,  sir,  we  have 
scales. 

Q.  That  is  done,  is  it  not?  A.  Yes,  sir,  all  patients  are  weighed. 

Q.  Where  are  they  examined,  taken  into  some  other  room  on  the 
receiving  ward?  A.  Taken  into  a  room  on  the  receiving  ward. 

Q.  Do  you  make  a  thorough  physical  examination?  A.  I  do. 

Q.  Of  every  patient  ?  A.  I  do. 

Q.  And  the  physical  defects  are  charted,  are  they?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  the  drawing  of  a  body  on  which  to  chart  them? 
A.  I  don’t  know. 

Q.  What  do  you  use,  doctor,  to  take  them  down  ?  A.  I  have 
a  regular  book  of  sheets,  you  might  say,  in  which  this  is  entered 
and  copied  into  the  history  book. 

Q.  Is  that  examination,  from  your  point  of  view,  satisfactory? 
A.  I  do  more  than  that  records.  I  make  out  the  card,  and  I  have  a 
copy  of  that,  but  I  do  a  great  deal  more  than  that.  I  make  a  great 
many  examinations  of  which  no  report  is  made. 

Q.  Is  that  done  on  your  initiative?  A.  The  examinations? 

O.  Yes.  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  do  it  though  it  is  not  required  for  the  institution?  A.  I 
do  it  because  I  feel  it  is  my  duty  to  do  it. 

Q.  There  is  nothing  to  compel  you?  A.  No. 

Mr.  Sawyer — I  want  to  ask  if  this  was  when  you  took  this  position 
here  in  this  institution,  did  you  not  conceive  it  to  be  your  duty  to 
make  these  diagnoses  by  means  of  a  physical,  bacteriological  and 
pathological  way  in  the  light  of  your  medical  knowledge  without 


18— A. 


274 


being  compelled  to  do  so  strictly  by  the  instructions  of  the  Superin¬ 
tendent?  A.  I  did. 

Q.  You  had  that  conception  of  your  duty  without  being  instructed 
to  do  so?  A.  If  I  had  not  had  such  an  idea,  it  would  be  no  use  of 
my  being  here. 

Mr.  Harrison — The  idea  I  was  trying  to  convey,  is  there  a  special 
form  of  the  institution  that  would  cause  the  doctors  to  make  that 
examination?  A.  Yes,  sir,  and  there  is  one  for  the  nurses  as  well  as 
for  the  physicians. 

Q.  This  examination  is  made,  you  say,  in  a  room  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  then  the  patient  is  bathed?  A.  The  examination  is  made 
according  to  the  condition  of  the  patient.  If  very  ill  or  anything 
wrong  he  is  examined  at  once.  Otherwise,  he  is  examined  the 
next  morning  on  the  regular  rounds.  I  receive  the  patients  myself. 
I  always  receive  the  patients.  I  always  take  them  and  by  a  casual 
inspection  I  can  tell  whether  or  not  the  patient  needs  immediate 
medical  attention,  or  let  them  be  put  on  the  wards. 

Q.  As  to  your  examining  room,  have  you  a  special  room  set 
apart  for  that  purpose?  A.  Yes,  at  the  time. 

0.  These  patients,  as  they  are  received,  are  they  frequently 
diseased?  A.  Some  we  have,  though  some  we  have  not.  The 
health  of  the  department,  though,  is  very  good. 

Q.  What  is  their  condition  as  to  vermin?  A.  I  have  none.  It 
is  nothing  unusual  for  them  to  come.  Three  or  four  times  they 
got  in  that  way.  The  women's  wards  are  in  good  condition.  With 
a  little  vigilance  on  the  part  of  myself  and  the  nurses  we  have  had 
no  difficulty  in  getting  rid  of  them. 

Q.  You  have  no  difficulty?  A.  It  requires  a  certain  amount  of 
vigilance.  At  present  we  have  none.  It  is  nothing  unusual  for  them 
to  come  in  with  them.  We  keep  the  regular  treatment  on  hand  for 
them  always. 

Q.  When  these  patients  come  in  they  are  apt  to  spread  the 
vermin?  A.  Unless  we  watch.  They  do  it  occasionally,  not  any¬ 
thing  unusual  for  one  patient  to  become  infected  from  another. 

Q.  Do  they  get  spread?  A.  I  would  not  say  they  were  spread 
on  the  wards. 

0.  On  the  ward?  A.  They  are  destroyed  before  they  do  that. 

Q.  You  stamp  them  out?  A.  Yes,  I  do. 

0.  It  is  possible  to  do  that?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  give  them  a  mental  examination  ?  A.  With  the  mind, 
of  course,  Mr.  Harrison,  as  I  say,  it  requires  months,  not  days. 


275 


We  can  give  a  person  a  physical  examination  and  be  perfectly  satis¬ 
fied  that  a  person  is  or  is  not  well,  it  may  require  one  or  more  exam¬ 
inations,  but  a  mental  examination  calls  for  an  investigation  over 
a  long  time. 

Q.  Are  you  able  to  give  that?  A.  Yes,  I  do.  New  cases  require 
quite  a  great  deal  of  close  inspection,  not  only  for  the  sake  of  the 
patient  but  for  my  own  good,  because  I  am  learning  constantly,  and 
the  new  cases  are  always  interesting  from  the  standpoint  of  mentality 
or  lack  of  it,  and  for  that  reason  they  are  always  watched. 

Q.  Do  you  keep  a  clinical  chart  ?  A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  What  is  the  advantage  of  them?  A.  It  is  always  used  in 
infectious  diseases,  in  acute  or  infectious  diseases.  They  are  not 
used  in  mental  cases,  for  the  reason  that  they  extend  over  such  a 
long  time,  and  on  the  acute  ward  we  have  anywhere  from  twenty- 
five  to  thirty  according  to  the  population.  It  varies  now,  and  I  have 
two  nurses  on  the  ward  to  do  everything,  and  they  make  regular 
reports.  Another  thing,  I  don’t  encourage  it  among  certain  patients 
on  account  of  the  patient’s  condition,  for  very  often  there  are  some 
of  them  so  that  you  can  make  sick  and  keep  sick  by  constant  atten¬ 
tion. 

Q.  You  say  two  nurses  cannot  do  the  work?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  If  you  had  more  you  could  carry  that  on  better?  A.  I  could, 
but  I  have  always  thought  I  had  no  right  to  ask  for  more  than  I 
got,  as  I  could  get  along  comfortably  with  what  I  had  and  do  justice 
to  the  patients. 

Q.  You  think  you  do  justice?  A.  I  think,  everything  being  taken 
into  consideration,  they  do. 

Q.  Do  they  get  justice  from  a  humanitarian  standpoint?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  they  do. 

Mr.  Sawyer — This  clinical  record  that  you  speak  of.  Of  course, 
we  all  know  when  a  doctor  is  practicing  and  has  the  blessing  of 
a  trained  nurse  he  keeps  his  clinical  record,  but  with  this  class  of 
diseases,  isn’t  it  a  fact,  so  far  as  you  know  as  to  other  institutions, 
that  they  do  not  consider  this  disease  even  in  a  matter  of  diagnosis 
extending  over  such  a  long  period  and  where  you  are  in  the  house 
and  see  the  patient  and  see  him  every  day,  don’t  you  know  that  a 
clinical  record  is  not  considered  necessary  for  these  cases,  and 
where  no  acute  changes  are  taking  place?  Where  in  cases  like 
typhoid  fever,  where  you  see  the  patient  maybe  not  every  day,  and 
this  class  of  diseases,  except  in  very  acute  cases  which  you  do  not 
see  very  often,  long  spaces  of  time,  and  where  the  temperature  rises. 


2/6 


it  is  necessary  to  keep  a  clinical  record?  A.  If  I  thought  it  necessary 
I  would  have  them.  I  am  on  the  ward  always.  I  am  not  more  than 
one  or  two  minutes  from  a  nurse  in  case  of  a  rise  of  temperature, 
it  is  very  unusual,  if  a  patient  has  a  fit  or  anything  of  that  kind,  it  is 
very  unusual  that  a  nurse  cannot  get  me.  The  only  thing  you  can 
do  is  to  protect  the  patient  and  keep  it  from  doing  itself  any  harm. 

Mr.  Harrison — What  class  of  patients  do  you  receive  here?  Do 
you  receive  any  criminally  insane?  A.  I  have  never,  so  far  as  I 
know,  received  a  criminal  woman. 

0.  How  about  inebriates?  A.  I  have  had  some. 

Q.  Idiots?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Drug  patients?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  Paresis?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  Acute  mania?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  I  suppose  that  you  receive  almost  every  known  disease?  A. 
Xo.  We  have  a  few  cases  of  tuberculosis,  though  tuberculosis, 
taking  everything  into  consideration,  in  my  department,  does  very 
well.  I  was  surprised  to  find  that  I  could  not  find  a  specimen  of 
tuberculosis  in  the  woman's  ward,  and  my  examination  extended 
over  two  weeks  for  the  purpose,  and  I  could  not  find  a  specimen  of 
it  in  the  sputa,  although  I  have  seen  some  cases  where  it  did  not 
show  up  in  the  sputa. 

Q.  Does  your  death  rate  from  tuberculosis  amount  to  anything? 
A.  Very  little. 

Q.  Then,  in  your  judgment,  from  your  standpoint,  you  would  not 
deem  it  necessary  to  make  any  further  provision  for  tuberculosis? 
A.  Yes,  I  would. 

0.  Would  that  be  expensive  or  inexpensive?  A.  I  know  abso¬ 
lutely  nothing  about  construction.  I  could  not  say.  I  have  attempted 
since  I  have  been  here  and  have  gotten  with  the  kind  permission  of 
Dr.  Babcock  a  kind  of  sun-porch  has  been  erected  in  which  the 
patients  sleep. 

O.  Then  the  treatment  can  be  given  for  tuberculosis?  A.  In 
the  milder  case,  with  the  construction  we  have  now,  they  can  be 
treated  very  well  for  a  while. 

0.  It  would  take  a  very  small  appropriation?  A.  With  a  great 
many  of  them  you  would  have  to  have  more  provisions  than  you  have 
for  a  common  one.  For  one  thing,  they  are  very  excitable  and  hard 
to  manage.  Those  people  have  got  to  be  put  in  rooms  where  they 
cannot  harm  themselves  or  anybody  else.  You  can’t  put  them  in 
open  rooms  because  they  will  do  themselves  harm. 


277 


Q.  The  only  thing  you  could  have  would  be  closed  rooms  ?  A.  I 
object  to  the  word  closed  room. 

Q.  Not  open?  A.  What  we  speak  of  as  guarded  rooms.  We 
want  them  the  regulation  size  and  what  we  mean  by  guarded  rooms 
we  mean  with  heavy  doors.  We  have  the  double  door.  The  upper 
half  has  iron  rods  across  it.  We  have  usually  two  and  then  there 
is  the  soldered  door.  That  room  is  to  keep  the  patients  from  hurting 
themselves  or  anybody  else. 

0.  How  many  white  women  have  you  ?  A.  Five  hundred  white 
women.  I  have  charge  of  471  at  this  time. 

Q.  How  many  trained  nurses  have  you?  A.  Nurses  in  training 
or  only  trained  nurses  ? 

Q.  Have  you  any  graduates?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  How  many?  A.  I  am  sorry,  but  I  can't  name  them. 

Q.  About  how  many?  A.  Twelve  or  thirteen. 

Q.  Graduate  trained  nurses?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  have  junior,  senior 
and  probationists.  The  graduate  nurses  wear  a  black  band.  There 
is  no  distinction  between  junior  and  senior,  the  one  is  first  and  the 
other  second.  The  probationers  are  out  of  uniform. 

Q.  You  have  enough?  A.  We  have  four  more  coming  Monday. 

Q.  Is  that  sufficient  to  do  the  work  on  your  department?  A.  As 
far  as  things  go  now,  as  compared  with  the  rest  of  the  institution, 
I  have  no  right  to  ask  for  more. 

Q.  Don’t  compare.  Speak  of  them  from  a  hospital  standpoint? 
A.  From  a  State  Hospital  standpoint,  not  a  plenty. 

Mr.  Sawyer — Also  take  into  consideration  the  taxpayers  and  the 
Legislature. 

The  Chairman — We  want  to  be  in  position  to  go  back  to  the 
Legislature  and  tell  them  what  we  need,  and  we  want  you  to  tell 
us  in  view  of  your  experience,  what  you  need.  We  have  not  very 
much  money.  The  Legislature  will  want  to  understand  before  it  will 
look  out  for  that  end  of  the  line,  and  if  you  will  tell  us,  it  will  enable 
us  to  inform  them  of  your  needs.  That  is  what  we  are  driving  at  in 
this  examination. 

Mr.  Sawyer — You  are  to  realize  also  that  the  acts  of  the  Legisla¬ 
ture  will  come  before  the  taxpayers  when  they  go  back  home. 

Mr.  Harrison — You  say  that  you  think  the  employment  of  35 
will  be  sufficient?  A.  31  at  present. 

Q.  Four  more  coming  in?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  You  think  that  will  be  ample  for  the  needs  of  your  depart¬ 
ment  ?  A.  I  should  like  to  have  more. 


278 


Q.  How  many?  A.  I  should  like  to  have  two  on  every  ward, 
and  three  on  some.  I  have  at  present  three  on  only  one  ward.  On 
the  fourth  ward  I  have  a  feeble  old  woman. 

O.  Have  you  any  scrub  women  ?  A.  I  have  two  in  the  morning. 

Q.  For  the  floor?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  addition  to  the  nurses?  A.  They  do  nothing  but  scrub. 

Q.  As  I  understand  it  they  go  through  the  ward  ?  A.  Systemati¬ 
cally,  ward  after  ward. 

Q.  They  scrub  everything  from  the  windows  to  the  floor?  A. 
The  floor,  the  nurses  do  that,  the  nurses  and  the  patients,  largely 
the  nurses. 

Q.  You  said  you  would  like  to  have  three  to  the  ward,  how  many 
would  that  take?  A.  I  have  charge  of  fifteen. 

O.  How  many  would  you  want?  A.  Taking  into  consideration 
everything,  we  should  have  two  or  more  on  each  ward. 

Q.  Was  that  included  in  your  estimate?  Your  have  fifteen  wards? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  How  many  would  that  be?  A.  We  ought  to  have  three  on 
some. 

Q.  Should  be  two  on  all?  A.  I  should  say  so.  Four  wards 
should  have  three.  I  don’t  mean  that  is  necessary. 

Q.  What  you  believe  is  proper?  A.  I  believe  it  is. 

Q.  From  a  hospital  standpoint?  A.  State  Hospital  standpoint. 

Q.  You  ought  to  have  how  many,  now?  A.  38. 

Q.  It  would  take  38  nurses?  A.  Yes,  and  we  have  31  now. 

Q.  You  are  then  nearly  supplied?  A.  It  would  require  more 
than  that,  because  I  have  several  wards,  in  the  house  with  only  one 
nurse.  There  should  be  three  on  some,  and  that  would  take  more 
than  38. 

Q.  I  was  going  on  the  basis  of  only  fifteen  wards?  A.  You 
forget  we  have  night  duty.  I  have  night  nurses. 

Q.  They  were  included  in  the  thirty-one?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  would  take  how  many  in  addition  to  the  nurses  you  have 
now  ?  A.  I  should  suggest  that  we  need  a  supervisor  for  the  whole- 
place. 

Mr.  Hardin — Judging  from  your  testimony  upon  the  whole  your 
department  is  pretty  well  equipped,  is  it  not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  treatment  for  insanity,  as  you  understand  it, 
doctor?  A.  As  you  know,  or  perhaps  you  do  not,  the  victims  of 
the  disease  are  self  limited.  Taking  into  consideration  that  insanity 
cannot  be  cured  in  itself,  it  is  self  limited,  and  I  know  of  no  treat- 


279 


ment  or  medicine  where  more  can  be  done.  I  know  of  no  class  of 
people  who  appreciate  it  more. 

Q.  What  would  you  suggest  as  to  treatment  by  drugs  ?  Do  they  do 
any  good?  A.  Properly  used  they  do  good. 

Q.  There  would  be  special  cases  where  it  could  be  used  to 
advantage?  A.  In  some  of  my  cases  I  can't  use  very  much,  though 
in  my  department  I  would  say  that  as  far  as  I  know,  there  is  no 
case  who  has  never  received  any  treatment. 

Q.  Is  it  used  for  insanity  or  for  the  body?  A.  It  is  used  for  the 
mental  condition  as  well  as  the  physical. 

Q.  Mental  as  well  as  physical?  A.  You  can  readily  understand 
that  in  cases  of  acute  mania  sulphurnal  would  do  much  good. 

Q.  What  other  drugs  do  you  use  regularly?  A.  Armamente 
reine. 

Q.  Are  they  in  the  nature  of  tonics?  A.  I  use  tonics,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  use  bromides?  A.  Yes,  sir,  occasionally;  very  little. 

Q.  And  you  do  think  drugs  play  some  part?  A.  Yes,  sir,  they 
do  quite  a  good  part. 

Q.  How  about  exercise?  A.  I  believe  in  exercise,  walking  par¬ 
ticularly. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  in  diversion?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  in  working  them  here?  A.  Employment  is  a 
diversion  for  a  good  many. 

Q.  How  about  amusements?  A.  I  believe  in  amusements. 

Q.  How  about  hvdrotherapeutic  treatment  ?  A.  Good  in  its  place. 

Q.  Good  you  think?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  about  electric  treatment?  A.  When  intelligently  used 
it  is  good,  when  not,  it  is  injurious. 

Q.  What  is  done  for  them  in  the  way  of  amusements?  A.  We 
have  a  weekly  dance  during  the  winter  months.  In  the  summer 
we  have  a  variety  of  things. 

Q.  What?  A.  They  play  cards  by  the  wards,  and  they  play 
games  of  all  kinds.  We  have  times  too  when  we  compel  them  to 
go  out  on  the  yard,  and  have  dancing. 

Q.  That  is  on  the  wards?  A.  Yes,  sir,  we  dance  on  the  wards, 
but  usually  go  to  the  amusement  room. 

Q.  Is  there  any  system  of  encouragement  of  amusements  by  the 
institution  ?  A.  I  encourage  the  patients  all  I  can. 

Q.  From  the  standpoint  of  the  institution,  are  amusements 
encouraged  ?  A.  I  must  say  yes. 


28o 


Q.  Does  the  institution  do  anything  in  the  way  of  furnishing 
materials  for  the  patients  in  that  line?  A.  It  furnished  music  for 
the  dances.  Last  summer  when  the  white  male  patients  had  a  great 
idea  of  playing  ball.  Mr.  Bunch  furnished  everything,  and  I  had  my 
white  patients  to  make  uniforms  for  them.  We  did  that  much. 

Q.  Did  you  contribute  anything  to  that  fund?  A.  What  fund? 

0.  To  the  baseball  team,  to  buy  balls?  A.  The  balls  they  got? 

Q.  Bats,  etc.  ?  A.  I  did  not.  1  furnished  some  of  the  material, 
but  a  very  small  amount. 

Q.  You  did  furnish  some  material  from  your  private  funds? 
A.  So  small  an  amount  that  it  was  practically  nothing. 

Mr.  Sawyer — With  the  baseball  fever  that  has  spread  over  the 
country  I  don't  see  how  you  could  have  gotten  along  without  having 
taxes  levied  for  these  things.  A.  It  is  just  this:  The  baseball  team 
varies  with  the  patients.  Last  summer  there  were  quite  a  number  who 
played  very  well,  while  this  year  they  have  very  few.  They  are 
very  changeable.  At  times  they  will  play  and  at  times  they  will  not. 

Q.  As  I  understand  it — what  do  you  understand  in  this  institution — 
in  other  words,  does  this  institution  encourage  those  gentlemen, 
Dr.  Babcock?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  encourages  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  various  exercises  and  amusements?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  This  would  apply  to  the  white  male  department  as  well  as  to 
the  rest  ?  A.  I  can't  tell  you  anything  about  the  white  male  depart¬ 
ment.  It  has  never  solicited  as  far  as  I  am  concerned. 

Q.  As  far  as  you  know  ?  A.  As  far  as  I  am  concerned. 

O.  As  far  as  you  know?  A.  Xo,  whenever  we  want  anything 
we  usually  get  all  we  need,  and  I  suppose  they  get  as  much  as  I  do. 

O.  When  ?  A.  Since  I  came  to  the  institution. 

Q.  These  dances,  doctor,  who  attends  them  besides  the  patients? 
A.  The  nurses  and  I  do. 

Q.  Dr.  Thompson?  A.  Yes,  sir,  irregularly. 

0.  Dr.  Babcock?  A.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Sawyer — This  morning  in  the  examination  of  Dr.  Thompson 
it  appeared  to  me  that  some  little  emphasis  was  laid  upon  the  fact 
that  all  the  officers  and  Dr.  Babcock  did  not  attend  the  dances.  I 
had  the  pleasure  of  attending  one  probably  because  I  happen  to  be  a 
dancing  man.  Can’t  you  have  just  as  good  dances  there,  in  your 
judgment,  if  Dr.  Babcock  was  not  there  as  if  he  was  there?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 


O.  Don't  they  get  ample  supervision  without  requiring  a  man 
like  the  Superintendent  to  come  to  see  them,  to  attend  the  dances 
with  the  patients?  A.  Yes,  sir,  and  then  everybody  can't  go  one 
place.  Some  one  has  to  stay  elsewhere. 

Mr.  Hardin — Dr.  Babcock  does  not  discourage  anything  of 
that  kind?  A.  Certainly  not. 

Mr.  Harrison — In  the  summer  of  1908  you  were  telling  just  a 
minute  ago  you  and  Dr.  Thompson  got  up  baseball  games,  did  you 
not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  take  your  patients  out?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Why  were  they  discontinued?  A.  Because  Dr.  Thompson  was 
away  at  the  time.  We  took  a  vacation  when  he  came  back,  and 
when  Dr.  Thompson  came  back  the  season  was  over. 

Q.  In  Dr.  Thompson's  absence  you  were  here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  baseball  was  not  continued  then?  A.  It  was  not. 

Q.  W hy  was  it  stopped  ?  A.  Because  in  the  nature  of  things  I 
could  not  be  in  two  places  at  once.  1  could  not  stay  in  the  office  and 
go  to  the  baseball  field.  It  was  against  the  orders  for  them  to  go 
unless  Dr.  Thompson  or  I  could  be  there. 

Q.  You  had  all  the  office  work  to  do  at  that  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  While  Dr.  Thompson  was  away?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  make  the  rounds  for  him  at  all?  A.  I  did  not  at 
that  time. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  done  so?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sawyer — I  believe  it  is  the  custom  with  business  people  to 
give  their  employees  a  little  vacation  in  the  summer?  A.  As  far  as 
I  know  it  is. 

Q.  If  you  have  visited  the  Government  Hospital  that  some  of 
this  Committee  has  had  the  pleasure  of  visiting,  1  understand  they 
give  their  employees,  say,  the  Superintendent  W.  A.  White  one 
month,  that  is,  one-twelfth  of  the  year,  for  vacation.  Does  Dr.  Bab¬ 
cock  ever  take  over  a  month?  A.  Dr.  Babcock,  as  far  as  I  know, 
has  had  no  vacation  at  all  until  last  summer. 

Q.  Have  any  of  the  doctors  had  over  a  month?  A.  I  had. 

Q.  Have  you  ?  A.  On  one  vacation  I  had.  I  made  up  my  time. 
I  took  two  in  one. 

Q.  You  have  to  double  up  on  the  wards  when  some  one  is  away? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  I  understand  it,  you  and  Dr.  Babcock  had  to  go  on  these 
wards  in  the  absence  of  Dr.  Thompson,  and  you  could  not  still  keep 
up  this  baseball?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


282 


Q.  There  has  been  no  strict  local  law  passed  in  this  institution 
that  they  should  not  play?  A.  O,  no.  We  have  already  discussed 
getting  up  a  game  for  the  summer,  but  so  far  we  haven’t  got  the 
players  for  this  summer. 

Mr.  Sawyer — Did  Dr.  Babcock  discourage  this  baseball?  A.  No. 

Q.  He  encouraged  it  ?  A.  Yes. 

0.  He  did  encourage  it?  A.  As  far  as  I  know,  yes,  sir.  I  have 
never  heard  him  say  one  thing  against  baseball. 

Q.  You  don't  hardly  see  how  he  could  get  time  to  look  after  this 
and  see  around  after  anything  else — he  left  that  to  the  subordinates? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Harrison — Doctor.  I  want  to  come  to  the  question — the 
reason  that  I  ask  all  these  questions.  Does  the  institution  do  all  it 
should  do  to  encourage  amusements  among  the  patients  ?  A. 
Taking  every  thing  into  consideration,  we  have,  yes,  sir.  Taking 
into  consideration  the  funds  we  have,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I  don’t  know  anything  about  the  busi¬ 
ness  affairs  of  the  institution. 

Q.  Does  the  institution  do  all  that  is  desirable  for  the  amusement 
of  the  patients?  A.  It -depends  altogether  on  what  you  mean  by 
desirable. 

Mr.  Hardin — The  institution  under  the  circumstances  would 
you  say  it  has  done  what  it  could?  A.  Yes,  sir,  you  would  be  sur¬ 
prised  to  know  the  number  of  patients  in  the  institution  in  my 
department  who  are  happy.  It  is  a  rare  thing  to  find  patients  who 
are  unhappy,  but  I  have  several  by  reason  of  their  disposition  not 
to  be  happy  or  contented,  but  with  the  exception  of  those  they  are 
happy.  They  will  ask  you  to  let  them  go  but  rarely.  They  pine 
for  home  for  a  short  time,  and  then  get  accustomed  to  it,  and  it  is 
nothing  unusual  to  have  them  loath  to  leave  you. 

Mr.  Harrison — I  am  asking,  you  know,  for  the  information  of 
the  Committee.  Do  you  think  on  the  whole  the  institution  encour¬ 
ages  amusements  and  furnishes  materials?  A.  As  far  as  possible, 
not  only  from  the  patient’s,  but  from  the  nurse’s  standpoint. 

0.  As  to  the  condition  of  your  wards,  are  they  clean?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  as  far  as  we  can  keep  them,  taking  into  consideration  that  in 
my  497  I  have  158  who  are  habitually  untidy. 

Q.  From  a  hospital  standpoint?  A.  From  a  State  Hospital 
standpoint. 

Q.  Clean  and  sanitary?  A.  As  far  as  we  can  get  them. 

Q.  Do  you  consider  them  so?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


283 


Q.  How  about  the  walls?  A.  The  walls  at  present  need  painting. 
Though  since  I  have  been  here  some  have  been  painted  and  are  in 
good  condition,  sir. 

Q.  Generally  in  pretty  good  condition?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  woodwork  and  the  floors  and  the  doors  of  the  rooms, 
etc.  They  are  in  pretty  good  condition?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bates — How  many  did  you  say  were  untidy?  A.  158.  There 
are  some  more  at  times,  but  those  are  habitually  so. 

Mr.  Hardin — Isn't  it  largely  due  to  the  supervision  and  encourage¬ 
ment  of  the  patients  in  things  of  that  kind,  doctor?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  is  the  interest  they  take  in  it  largely?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  makes  the  conditions  cleanly?  A.  Yes,  sir,  and  the 
nurses  are  largely  responsible  for  the  cleanliness,  because  they  do 
the  work. 

Mr.  Sawyer — And  if  there  is  untidiness  and  real  uncleanliness  on 
the  wards,  the  parties  in  charge  of  that  ward,  the  supervisor  whether 
male  or  female,  that  supervision  is  personally  responsible  for  the 
condition  of  that  ward  ?  A.  As  I  see  it,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  he  is  not  the  right  kind  of  officer  if  it  is  not  done  without 
the  Superintendent  having  to  come  down  and  having  a  scouring 
broom  to  scour  it?  A.  I  will  have  to  say  there  that  the  circum¬ 
stances  will  altogether  govern.  I  can  say  in  my  department. 

Q.  I  am  talking  about  the  general  conditions.  You  know  what 
the  supervisor  is  responsible  for.  You  know  if  he  is  responsible 
for  these  conditions,  and  if  that  duty  is  properly  attended  to  on 
that  ward,  they  would  keep  those  places  clean  as  far  as  they  were 
able  with  the  number  of  nurses,  would  they  not?  A.  As  far  as 
we  can,  I  believe,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  made  a  suggestion  to  Dr.  Babcock  that  would 
mitigate  or  improve  the  condition  of  these  patients,  a  suggestion 
that  he  has  not  given  you  an  ample  hearing  upon  and  shown  interest 
in  it?  A.  If  it  is  possible  I  always  get  it;  if  not,  I  get  a  good 
excuse  for  it. 

Q.  As  to  the  beds,  have  you  all  the  beds  you  need  in  your  depart¬ 
ment?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Good  quality?  A.  And  clean. 

Q.  Cotton  mattresses?  A.  There  are  a  few  patients  that  have 
not  got  cotton  mattresses.  Since  I  have  been  here  all  the  cotton 
mattresses  have  been  made  over. 

Q.  Do  you  have  washable  mattresses  or  a  rubber  sheet?  A.  Sheet. 


284 


Q.  You  don’t  use  the  washable  mattress?  A.  I  don't  care  for  it. 
I  much  prefer  the  rubber  sheet. 

Q.  Have  you  iron  or  wood  beds?  A.  I  have  both. 

Q.  Is  it  possible  to  keep  wood  beds  in  a  sanitary  condition?  A. 
Yes,  sir.  They  are  heavy  oak,  and  are  fastened  to  the  floor.  They 
are  very  easily  cleaned. 

Q.  Are  your  bedroom  walls  kept  sanitary?  A.  We  keep  them 
in  a  sanitary  condition  considering  the  type  of  the  patients.  A  few 
of  our  wards  are  kept  as  clean  as  homes,  taking  into  consideration 
they  are  put  to  here.  We  have  sanitary  conditions  as  far  as  we  pos¬ 
sibly  can.  We  try  to  keep  all  the  untidy  ones  on  the  same  ward. 

Mr.  Sawyer — We  were  speaking  about  vermin  just  now,  com¬ 
monly  known  as  lice  and  bedbugs,  getting  into  the  beds.  Is  there 
much  in  here?  A.  I  have  none  in  my  department. 

Q.  It  is  charged  that  the  walls  have  bedbugs  in  them,  and  that 
they  let  people  come  in  with  lice?  A.  They  do  come. 

Q.  It  has  been  charged  that  they  come  in  here  in  this  way.  In 
the  everyday  actual  life  of  a  physician  he  would  naturally  come 
across  such  things  as  that  among  a  certain  class  of  people  ?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Some  very  good  people,  some  of  the  very  best,  might  get  a 
little  careless,  and  their  hair  might  be  a  little  long,  and  they  might 
get  inhabitants  in  their  heads,  and  it  would  require,  as  you  say, 
the  strictest  kind  of  vigilance  and  the  use  of  some  strong  germi¬ 
cides,  and  it  would  require  a  great  deal  of  work  to  keep  them  from 
getting  into  the  hair  sometimes,  would  it  not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  And  to  keep  the  walls  from  being  in  a  very  unclean  condi¬ 
tion?  I  know  I  have  seen  them  in  houses  I  have  been  into  in  my 
practice?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Would  it  not  require  the  strictest  kind  of  vigilance  to  pro¬ 
hibit  body  lice  from  ever  getting  into  this  institution,  into  an  institu¬ 
tion  of  this  kind  where  they  bring  negroes  of  the  slovenliest  sort, 
and  whites  too.  Would  it  not  be  almost  impossible  to  keep  them 
from  getting  in  here?  You  can  get  them  out,  but  they  are  obliged 
to  get  in  here  sometimes?  A.  Perhaps  you  would  not  take  hearsay 
as  evidence.  You  can  take  it  for  what  it  is  worth.  I  was  told 
by  the  head  nurse  that  there  was  an  old  blind  woman  brought  here 
last  summer  from  Abbeville  County,  and  her  hair  was  in  such  a 
condition  that  it  was  cut  as  one  mass. 

Mr.  Harrison — There  is  one  question  I  wanted  to  ask  in  regard  to 


285 


bedbugs  and  body  lice.  It  is  possible  to  stamp  them  out?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  It  can  be  done?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  has  been  done?  A.  It  has  been  done  in  my  department  as 
fast  as  they  come.  We  do  occasionally  get  them,  but  with  the 
constant  vigilance  of  the  nurses  it  is  kept  down.  As  far  as  it  is 
possible  it  is  done. 

Q.  It  is  possible  that  this  kind  of  condition  is  not  necessary 
that  bugs  should  be  throughout  the  wards?  A.  It  is  not  necessary 
in  my  department. 

Mr.  Sawyer — Of  course,  you  can  stamp  it  out  at  any  given  time. 
With  the  new  patients  it  is  constantly  coming  in  all  the  time?  A. 
You  have  to  keep  stamping  it  out.  Every  patient  that  brings  them 
in  makes  it  necessary  for  us  to  stamp  them  out  again. 

Mr.  Harrison — In  receiving  this  class  of  patients,  if  you  had  a 
proper  receiving  room,  would  it  be  possible  to  so  arrange  it  that 
patients  could  not  bring  in  these  bedbugs  and  other  vermin  ?  A. 
If  you  examine  the  patients  in  there  it  is  not.  When  they  come 
with  bugs  their  trunks  are  full  of  them.  It  is  impossible  at  one 
stroke  to  do  away  even  with  the  vermin,  because  even  one  cleaning  of 
the  hair  will  not  exterminate  them,  and  it  is  the  rule  not  to  cut  the 
hair  for  that  purpose.  They  germinate  after  that. 

Q.  If  you  had  a  proper  receiving  room  that  you  could  put  that 
patient  into  that,  and  put  the  clothing  on  him,  and  in  that  wav 
it  would  be  possible  to  get  that  patient  rid  of  vermin  before  putting 
him  on  the  regular  wards?  A.  We  could  not  altogether  exchange 
the  clothes.  The  only  thing  to  do  is  to  keep  stamping  them  out  the 
way  we  have  been  doing. 

Q.  In  the  case  of  bedbugs  it  is  not  necessary  to  cut  the  hair,  is  it? 
A.  No. 

O.  Is  the  patient’s  clothing  that  is  brought  here  disinfected? 
A.  No. 

Q.  It  is  not?  A.  No. 

Q.  Fumigated?  A.  No. 

Q.  Aren’t  they  bathed  on  the  wards  after  they  arrive?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Hardin — Would  the  friends  or  relatives  of  the  patients  be 
willing  to  let  their  names  be  put  on  the  State  clothes  ?  A.  Some 
of  them  would  object  seriously.  Just  the  other  day  a  gentleman 
who  had  a  daughter  here  clad  in  State  shoes  objected  very  seriously. 

O.  Do  you  think  the  institution  ought  to  listen  to  those  com¬ 
plaints?  A.  From  the  public  I  do  not. 


286 


Q.  Do  you  think  the  institution  should  allow  its  physicians  and 
nurses  and  their  patients  to  suffer  in  order  to  please  a  whim  of 
that  sort?  A.  You  have  to  take  this  into  consideration.  The 
patients  are  very  destructive,  and  the  private  clothing  is  a  great 
help  to  the  institution,  because  when  they  furnish  them  we  do  not 
have  to  do  it.  One  who  is  not  accustomed  to  the  institution  would 
not  know  how  very  destructive  they  are  in  here. 

Q.  If  you  were  to  destroy  the  clothing,  would  that  stamp  it  out? 
A.  They  may  come  in  in  a  state  of  incubation. 

Mr.  Harrison — If  you  had  a  room  on  that  receiving  ward  where 
you  could  take  a  patient  and  wash  him,  bathe  him  thoroughly,  and 
dress  him  say  temporarily  in  asylum  clothing,  or  State  clothing  and 
then  put  him  on  the  wards?  I  am  asking  if  that  is  possible?  Then 
take  their  clothing  and  disinfect  them.  Couldn’t  that  be  done?  A. 
You  can  if  you  have  the  help,  the  money  and  the  equipment.  As  I 
say,  it  is  not  a  necessity  at  all. 

Mr.  Sawyer — It  is  one  of  those  affairs  that  will  take  more  money 
from  the  taxpayer  without  helping  the  inmates  here?  A.  That  is 
the  idea  exactly. 

Mr.  Harrison — As  to  the  food  of  the  patients,  where  is  it  cooked? 
A.  The  food  of  my  patients  is  cooked  in  several  places,  buildings. 

0.  Where?  A.  The  Dix  cottage  patients  are  served  there  at 
the  cottage  kitchen  and  those  at  the  Taylor  building  are  served  at 
that  building.  The  new  building  is  at  present  serving  for  one  ward 
only,  and  for  the  others  on  the  end  section.  All  the  rest  get  their 
food  from  the  main  kitchen. 

Q.  How  is  the  food  prepared  in  the  new  building,  pretty  well? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  no  objection. 

Q.  Wholesome?  A.  Thoroughly. 

Q.  No  objection  whatever?  A.  None. 

Q.  The  Taylor  building?  A.  Also  good. 

Q.  Kept  clean?  A.  As  far  as  I  know. 

Q.  Sanitary?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  You  have  charge  of  it?  A.  No,  I  have  not. 

Q.  Who  has  charge  of  that?  A.  I  have  not. 

Q.  Who  has  ?  A.  I  think,  I  am  not  sure,  I  think  Miss  Irwin  has 
charge  of  that. 

Q.  She  is  your  subordinate?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  suppose  so. 

Q.  You  are  not  sure  ?  A.  I  know  I  have  not — 

Mr.  Sawyer — The  question  was  if  Miss  Irwin  ordered  the  nurses, 


28  7 


whether  she  is  literally  your  subordinate,  and  is  it  your  duty  to  give 
her  orders  ?  A.  She  is  responsible  to  Dr.  Babcock  and  so  am  I. 

Q.  She  is  not  directly  under  you?  A.  No,  indeed. 

Q.  She  is  not  under  you  in  any  sense?  A.  Medically,  but  she 
has  a  great  many  other  duties  with  which  I  have  nothing  to  do. 

Mr.  Harrison — You  say  you  have  eight  wards  served  from  the 
main  kitchen?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  character  of  that  food?  A.  It  could  be  better 
with  more  money.  With  what  we  have  I  can’t  find  any  objection. 
I  think  it  does  reasonably  well  under  the  circumstances. 

Q.  You  think  it  is  well  cooked?  A.  I  cannot  say  well. 

Q.  Well,  is  it  properly  cooked?  A.  No,  but  I  will  say  that  it  is 
as  well  prepared  as  it  could  be  under  the  circumstances. 

Q.  Is  it  nutritious?  A.  I  can  only  say  so  by  telling  the  result 
of  the  food.  There  are  few  patients  who  come  here  who  do  not  gain 
in  flesh. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  in  the  main  kitchen  ?  A.  I  have  been  once 
or  twice. 

Q.  Is  it  kept  clean?  A.  No,  sir,  I  cannot  say  that  it  is. 

Q.  Are  the  employees  clean  ?  A.  I  know  nothing  of  the  employees 
of  the  kitchen. 

Q.  From  your  observation?  A.  I  have  seen  Mr.  Earle  only.  As 
far  as  I  know  he  is  working  in  the  kitchen. 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  cooks  ?  A.  I  don’t  know.  I  don’t  know 
anything  about  the  kitchen. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  other  people  in  the  kitchen?  A.  I  saw  some 
colored  people. 

Q.  Were  they  clean  ?  A.  I  did  not  notice  them.  I  had  no  occasion 
to  do  so. 

Mr.  Sawyer — You  were  born  and  reared  in  York  County?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  been  accustomed  to  negro  servants  ?  A.  My  mother* 
was  a  German  and  rather  disliked  to  have  negroes  around  the  house, 
and  for  that  reason  she  did  her  own  cooking.  She  would  not  have 
them. 

Q.  Your  mother  was  a  German  and  would  not  have  them?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  a  general  thing  these  patients  that  you  saw,  were  they 
not  about  the  average  of  the  negro  cooks  and  help  that  you  see 
anywhere  else?  A.  As  far  as  I  know,  yes,  sir.  Not  having  to  take 
care  of  the  men's  department  I  never  see  into  those  things.  I  have 


288 


more  than  I  can  do  to  take  care  of  over  five  hundred  women.  I 
think  that  is  all  that  is  required  of  me. 

Mr.  Harrison — Didn’t  the  nurses  complain  about  the  food?  A. 
I  have  heard  complaints  of  the  food. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  an  instance  where  a  complaint  was  made 
to  Dr.  Babcock,  took  the  Regents  down  there  and  showed  them  the 
rice  ?  A.  Yes,  sir.  He  told  me  he  took  the  Regents. 

Q.  You  were  not  present?  A.  No,  sir.  The  rice  was  improved, 
materially  improved. 

Q.  Do  your  patients  always  have  enough  to  eat?  A.  At  times 
the  food  on  the  wards  is  rather  scarce  on  account  of  the  number  of 
patients.  I  have  to  change  my  patients  a  great  deal  on  account  of 
the  nature  of  the  patients  I  have  a  crowded  room  here,  and  I  cannot 
put  any  more  in  there  without  over-crowding  them,  and  the  wards 
get  congested,  and  if  I  get  one  or  two  more  patients  than  I  can 
accommodate  I  take  them  elsewhere. 

Q.  That  is  really  an  abnormal  condition  ?  A.  The  food  is  usually 
plentiful. 

Q.  Nearly  always?  A.  Usually  the  food  is  plentiful.  Occasion¬ 
ally  we  get  complaints  of  its  being  scarce. 

Q.  That  patients  did  not  get  enough?  A.  Yes,  sir.  That  com¬ 
plaint  is  unusual. 

Q.  You  report  that?  A.  'Yes,  sir. 

Q.  To  whom?  A.  Occasionally  to  Mr.  Bunch  and  to  Dr.  Bab¬ 
cock. 

Mr.  Dick — Do  you  make  out  an  estimate  every  week  for  the 
patients  for  your  wards?  A.  No,  I  have  nothing  to  do  with  the 
provisions. 

O.  You  have  not?  A.  That  is  not  prescribed  as  one  of  my  duties. 

O.  Who  prepares  that  for  your  wards  and  when  is  it  given  in, 
doctor?  A.  My  services  are  divided  regularly  into  wards,  and  then 
I  have  the  fifth — that  is  the  hospital  ward.  Whenever  any  patient 
is  sick  it  is  taken  to  that  ward.  There  is  where  all  the  sick  people 
are  attended  to.  and  that  is  the  ward  where  we  always  have  a  crowd 
to  nurse,  and  here  we  have  junior  nurses  on  this  ward,  and  here 
we  have  a  stove,  an  alcohol  stove,  and  here  the  nurses  prepare  many 
things  for  the  sick  people.  My  sick  people  do  not  want  for  proper 
diet. 

Air.  Harrison — Isn’t  it  rather  a  difficult  matter,  doctor?  A.  I 
don’t  know  much  about  cooking  myself. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  a  rather  difficult  matter  to  cook  large  quantities  of  rice 


289 


or  grits  and  at  all  times  have  them  done  as  they  should  be  ?  A.  I 
think  so,  yes,  sir.  When  the  food  is  cooked  in  as  large  quantities  as 
we  have  here,  it  is  almost  impossible  to  expect  to  have  it  as  nice  as 
a  private  house. 

Mr.  Harrison — You  have  satisfactory  quarters  for  your  nurses? 
A.  I  should  like  to  have  my  nurses  quarters  improved. 

Q.  I  mean  that  you  are  getting  on  all  right?  A.  Yes,  we  get 
along  very  comfortably. 

Q.  It  is  a  very  nice  place?  It  is  not  unpleasant?  A.  It  is  not 
unpleasant  in  the  least.  I  cannot  call  it  unpleasant. 

Q.  It  is  not?  A.  It  is  not  an  ideal  home. 

Q.  Still,  it  is  pretty  good?  A.  O,  yes,  sir,  they  put  up  with  it. 

Q.  You  have  no  trouble  whatever  in  keeping  help,  do  you,  that 
you  get  in?  A.  I  get  unusally  short  of  nurses  at  times. 

Q.  At  times  you  do?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  low  does  it  fall  sometimes?  A.  I  can’t  tell  how  low,  but 
it  does  run  low  at  times. 

Q.  And  then  you  get  an  excess  just  as  at  present?  A.  I  have 
had  more  attendants  than  I  have  had  in  quite  a  time. 

0.  You  are  increasing  the  number  of  your  nurses,  or  are  some 
of  them  leaving  you?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  had  several  to  leave  me 
lately. 

Q.  You  are  constantly  getting  applications?  A.  Here? 

Q.  For  new  places?  A.  Getting  ready  to  open  a  ward  in  the 
new  building. 

Mr.  Sawyer — Don’t  you  have  nurses  to  graduate,  and  stay  here 
until  they  can  get  better  positions,  and  then  leave  you?  A.  They 
don’t  even  wait  until  they  graduate.  Ours  is  a  mere  stepping-stone, 
because  asylum  work  is  not  altogether  pleasant  work.  They  come 
and  catch  on,  and  after  staying  here  a  week  or  two  weeks  or  a  month, 
they  get  something  better.  Yon  can’t  blame  the  nurses. 

Q.  Most  of  the  institutions  have  fine  nurses’  homes?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  they  do. 

Q.  And  they  tell  me  it  adds  a  great  deal  to  the  efficiency  of  the 
work,  to  the  discipline  and  the  interest  of  the  nurses  in  the  institu¬ 
tion.  They  stay  better  and  work  better?  A.  They  put  up  with 
these  things,  but  if  they  had  a  nurse’s  home,  of  course,  it  would  be 
better. 

0.  I  wanted  to  ask  you  another  question  on  this  line.  Some 
stress  was  laid  just  now  on  the  kind  of  kitchen  where  the  food  is 


in— a. 


290 


prepared.  It  is  an  advantage  to  some  extent  to  have  different 
kitchens?  A.  Yes,  sir,  decidedly. 

Q.  Not  all  from  one  kitchen?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Carey — You  have  a  happy  family  on  your  side?  A.  Yes,  sir, 
as  I  understand,  as  happy  as  we  can  expect  to  have. 

O.  Perfect  harmony  between  you  and  the  nurses?  A.  I  do  not 
mean  to  say  that  it  is  possible  to  find  perfect  people.  I  do  not  mean 
to  say  that  every  nurse  we  have  is  satisfactory. 

Q.  If  not,  what  do  you  do?  A.  I  go  to  Dr.  Babcock  and  com¬ 
plain. 

Q.  How  does  the  doctor  take  it?  A.  The  doctor  always  receives 
me  and  every  complaint  that  I  have  kindly. 

Q.  Has  he  ever  shown  a  disposition  not  to  do  so?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  He  always  looked  into  the  matters  you  complained  of?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Do  you  and  your  nurses  get  along?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  there  any  in  your  department  you  think  ought  not  to  be 
there?  A.  I  can’t  say  that  there  are.  I  am  very  well  pleased  with 
the  service  of  my  nurses,  and  I  feel  that  I  have  reason  to  be  grateful 
for  their  services. 

Q.  To  your  patients?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  visited  other  hospitals?  A.  Very  little. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  visited  the  woman’s  department  in - 

Hospital  ?  A.  I  have  never. 

Q.  Considering  the  circumstances,  do  you  think  your  department 
measures  up  to  what  you  would  reasonably  expect  it  to  do?  A. 
Under  the  conditions  and  the  funds  we  have  and  everything,  it  is 
everything  we  could  expect. 

Q.  Are  the  relatives  of  the  patients  as  a  rule  satisfied  that  you 
know  ?  A.  Some  are,  and  some  are  not.  I  get  few  complaints  I 
cannot  reasonably  explain  away.  I  sometimes  find  people  who  are 
not  satisfied,  but  not  often.  I  have  very  little  trouble  in  that  way. 

0.  Have  you  any  that  you  think  are  being  unjustly  retained  here? 
A.  No. 

Q.  None  at  all  ?  A.  I  have  some  I  hope  the  doctor  will  be  able 
to  release. 

Q.  Is  it  your  rule  to  recommend  a  release  as  soon  as  you  safely 
can?  A.  Yes,  sir,  and  I  have  made  some  mistakes  in  recommending 
them  too  soon. 

Q.  Is  that  a  difficult  question?  A.  Yes,  sir.  We  had  one  woman 
who  came  here  from  McColl.  This  patient  came  in  perfectly  quietly 


291 


and  seemed  to  have  nothing  wrong  with  her,  and  we  wondered  why 
they  had  sent  her.  Her  husband  took  fever  at  home  and  was  in  a 
condition  where  he  needed  her.  We  were  walking  across  the  yard 
going  to  the  new  kitchen,  and  I  asked  the  doctor  to  let  her  go  home 
and  he  let  her  go.  That  woman  was  discharged  on  a  Monday  and 
within  three  days,  I  think,  I  got  a  telegram  saying  that  he  would 
have  to  bring  his  wife.  He  and  two  other  men  brought  her.  They 
got  her  as  far  as  the  steps  and  it  took  the  hall  servant  to  help  bring 
her  in.  She  was  in  such  a  condition  at  first  that  I  found  it  impossible 
to  move  her.  We  had  to  put  her  in  straps  at  first.  I  say  that  I  was 
largely  responsible  for  the  woman’s  going  home.  In  another  case 
which  we  had  which  came  and  staid  quite  a  long  time,  and  never 
showed  any  signs  of  insanity,  and  I  wondered  why  they  sent  here 
here,  and  we  began  to  wonder  whether  she  ought  not  to  be  out, 
when  she  began  to  show  her  insanity  and  we  had  finally  to 
put  her  on  the  acute  ward.  Then  there  was  a  case  of  a  young 
woman.  She  was  admitted  as  an  emergency  case.  I  received  a 
message  by  telephone,  and  I  prepared  a  room  for  her.  She  has  not 
shown  the  slightest  signs  of  insanity,  showing  how  hard  it  is  for 
us  to  know  what  to  do. 

Q.  Does  Dr.  Thompson  and  the  supervisor  of  the  white  male 
department  bear  the  same  relation  to  the  head  of  the  institution 
that  you  do  to  the  Superintendent?  A.  I  am  sorry  1  can’t  tell  you, 
because  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  He  is  a  physician?  A.  Who? 

Q.  Dr.  Thompson?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  And  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  an  assistant?  A.  Second  assistant. 

Q.  And  he  is  first?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  have  a  female  supervisor  on  your  side?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who?  A.  Miss  Fannie  Irwin. 

Q.  Who  has  charge  of  the  white  convalescents?  A.  Dr.  Babcock. 

0.  How  many  are  there?  A.  31  at  present. 

0.  What  building  are  they  in  ?  A.  Dix  cottage. 

Q.  Does  Dr.  Babcock  give  them  his  personal  attention  ?  A.  They 
are  convalescent.  They  are  usually  sent  home  from  the  Dick’s 
cottage.  It  is  a  kind  of  sanitarium.  We  hold  up  the  Dix  cottage 
as  an  inducement.  My  patientss  all  have  a  regular  treatment.  Everv- 
body  is  received  on  my  ward.  I  have  no  distinctions  as  far  as  social 
standing  is  concerned.  Everybody  rests  upon  a  common  level. 
Those  who  run  a  chance  of  getting  well  are  put  on  the  second  ward. 


292 


The  first  ward  is  nice  because  it  is  clean.  It  is  as  clean  as  you  can 
expect  them  to  have  it.  The  dining  room  service  is  nice.  They 
take  great  pride  in  it.  They  stay  there  a  little  while  before  going 
to  the  Dix  cottage.  We  hold  out  the  Dix  cottage  as  an  induce¬ 
ment.  They  go  there  and  stay  under  his  own  supervision. 

Q.  Are  they  satisfied?  A.  Always.  No  reason  why  they  should 
not  be. 

Q.  They  are  well  treated  out  there?  A.  Always. 

Q.  Is  there  any  want  of  harmony  between  you  and  the  head  of  the 
institution  ?  A.  There  has  never  been.  I  have  always  found  him  not 
only  as  a  man — 

Q.  Do  you  regard  him  as  a  competent  man?  A.  I  have  never 
known  a  more  competent  man. 

Q.  Is  there  any  want  of  harmony  between  you  and  the  Board  of 
Regents?  A.  As  far  as  I  know  there  is  not.  I  know  very  little  of 
them. 

Q.  You  have  practically  charge  of  the  female  whites?  A. 
Except  31. 

Mr.  Sawyer — This  morning  Dr.  Thompson  testified  in  here  in 
answer  to  a  question  that  there  was  a  feeling — Dr.  Thompson  testi¬ 
fied,  as  I  understand,  I  think  that  is  correct,  that  there  was  some 
feeling  among  the  patients,  as  I  understood  him  to  say,  against  Dr. 
Babcock,  against  the  Superintendent,  some  kind  of  feeling.  You 
have  five  hundred  women  under  you,  and  I  want  to  know  if  you  know 
whether  there  is  any  such  feeling  among  them?  A.  No.  My  patients 
always  speak  of  him  in  the  highest  terms.  They  are  constantly  tell¬ 
ing  me  how  much  better  he  is  to  them  than  I  am.  Dr.  Babcock  is 
unusually  kind  to  them,  and  if  I  have  any  complaint  to  make  against 
him  it  is  his  excessive  kindness. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  of  that  kind?  A.  That  is  the  only 
objection  I  can  find  to  him  on  my  wards. 

0.  Do  you  know  anything  of  this  feeling  in  the  institution?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  anything  of  it?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  know  Dr.  Thompson  felt  that  way?  A.  I  did  not 
know  anything  about  it. 

Q.  Do  you  come  in  contact  with  Mr.  Mitchell?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  Do  you  know  anything  about  his  relations  towards  the  Board 
of  Regents  and  Dr.  Babcock?  A.  As  far  as  I  know,  perfectly 
friendly.  I  personally  feel  as  if  Mr.  Mitchell  regards  me  in  a  very 
kindly  manner  and  Dr.  Babcock  as  well.  I  know  of  nothing  else. 


293 


Q.  And  you  think  Dr.  Thompson  does  too?  A.  As  far  as  I 
know. 

Q.  You  have  absolutely  no  knowledge  of  the  feeling  among  the 
men  patients?  A.  I  never  come  in  contact  with  the  men  only  at 
the  dances,  and  there  they  are  not  allowed  to  talk. 

0.  And  you  think  he  is  just  as  competent  as  any  man  you  know? 
A.  I  do  not  mean  to  say  that  he  is  perfect.  He  is  fully  competent. 

Mr.  Harrison — The  inspections  of  your  wards?  Does  the  Super¬ 
intendent  make  regular  inspections?  A.  Not  regularly.  He  is  in 
close  touch  with  my  department,  sir. 

Q.  He  goes  through  your  wards  irregularly?  A.  Irregularly,  but 
frequently. 

Q.  Goes  through  the  whole  ward?  A.  Not  through  the  whole 
ward.  He  has  been. 

Q.  What  I  mean,  he  makes  an  inspection  of  your  department, 
does  he  not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  he  goes  through  the  wards  literally  from  top  to  bottom, 
would  you  say  on  an  average  of  once  a  week?  A.  No,  I  do  not, 
because,  Mr.  Harrison,  I  could  not  speak  truthfully  to  do  it. 

Q.  The  evidence  I  want  to  bring  is  whether  he  makes  inspec¬ 
tions?  A.  He  makes  inspections,  but  not  regular  inspections. 

Q.  He  comes  through  the  female  department  say  once  a  month, 
is  that  so?  A.  I  don’t  know  that  he  does  that. 

Q.  You  report  to  him  verbally,  do  you  not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  don’t  make  him  any  written  report?  A.  No,  I  do  not. 

Q.  The  Board  of  Regents  also  come  over  the  wards,  don't  they, 
doctor?  A.  I  have  never  escorted  any  of  these  gentlemen  through 
my  wards  except  Dr.  Taylor.  I  have  taken  him  through. 

Q.  Do  you  know  if  the  other  members  of  the  Board  of  Regents 
have  been  through?  A.  They  have  inspected  the  wards,  but  I  have 
not  inspected  them. 

Q.  You  were  informed  that  they  were  on  the  wards?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  You  escorted  Dr.  Taylor  through  the  entire  wards,  did  you’ 
A.  Not  the  entire  building.  He  has  been  through  quite  a  number 
of  the  wards  on  my  department,  because  whenever  I  get  any  unusual 
case  in  which  I  do  not  care  to  take  the  responsibility  I  always  call 
on  Dr.  Taylor.  I  have  seen  the  other  gentlemen. 

Q.  Dr.  Taylor  always  came  willingly?  A.  Always  would. 

Q.  Whenever  you  have  a  special  case  for  medical  treatment  or 


294 


anything  of  the  kind  you  call  on  the  doctor?  A.  I  always  call  on 
him. 

Q.  Is  he  always  prompt?  A.  Always  ready  to  come,  not  only 
that,  but  he  comes  at  irregular  times,  whenever  we  need  him.  The 
head  nurse  in  the  department  frequently  calls  him. 

Q.  Both  in  the  day  and  at  night?  A.  He  has  been  known  often 
to  come  in  late  at  night  without  being  called. 

Q.  When  you  call  him  in  he  always  comes?  A.  Always. 

Q.  Then,  you  go  on  those  wards  at  night,  don’t  you?  A.  Always 
when  called,  day  or  night  on  any  trivial  case  whatever. 

Q.  You  make  voluntary  excursions  in  there  at  night,  do  you? 
A.  I  do. 

Q.  Have  you  a  night  watchman  ?  A.  I  have  two. 

Q.  They  perform  their  duties  so  far  as  they  are  able  to  do  so? 
A.  I  have  been  on  my  wards  at  almost  every  hour  to  see,  and  I 
have  never  failed  to  find  my  nurses  busy. 

Q.  Have  you  a  system  with  a  watchman’s  clock?  A.  No. 

Q.  Of  course,  you  don’t  know  absolutely  that  they  are  on  duty 
at  all  times?  A.  I  have  every  reason  to  believe  it,  because  I  have 
been  on  the  wards  all  times  at  night,  early  and  late  at  night,  from 
time  to  time. 

Q.  And  you  believe  it  from  that?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sawyer — So  far  as  Dr.  Babcock  is  concerned  in  his  visiting 
your  ward,  he  is  not  directly  a  medical  attendant  over  that  depart¬ 
ment?  A.  No. 

Q.  And  you  think  if  he  had  confidence  enough  in  you  to  put  you 
in  that  position,  he  visits  you  enough  to  see  if  you  are  performing 
your  duty?  A.  I  have  always  been  conceited  enough  to  believe 
that  it  was  not  necessary  for  him  to  come  on  my  ward  for  that  pur¬ 
pose. 

Q.  You  think  he  visits  as  often  as  is  necessary  for  a  Superintend¬ 
ent?  A.  I  do. 

Q.  To  see  that  everything  is  going  on?  A.  Yes.  sir.  If  the 
doctor  had  no  other  duties  than  supervising  duties  I  should  expect 
him  to  come  on  my  wards  and  make  systematic  visits,  but  I  cannot 
expect  it  with  the  work  he  has. 

Q.  You  don't  see  how  it  would  be  possible?  A.  I  don’t  think  it 
would  be  possible,  and  I  know  that  it  takes  all  my  time. 

Q.  From  your  experience  you  don't  think  it  would  be  possible  for 
him  to  do  it  ?  A.  I  don’t  see  how  he  can  do  as  much  as  he  does. 

Mr.  Sawyer — In  your  judgment,  doctor,  is  not  it  better  not  to 


295 


have  a  military  rule  about  making  these  visits?  A.  A  special  time 
to  come  and  go? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  It  does  a  great  deal  of  good  sometimes. 

Q.  Not  to  let  them  know  always?  A.  I  object  from  a  good 
many  standpoints  to  regular  visits. 

Q.  Irregular  visits  really  answer  better?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  same  thing  with  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Harrison — You  have  hose  on  the  wards?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  a  box?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  are  tested,  aren’t  they?  A.  I  have  never  tested  them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  if  they  have  ever  been  tested?  A.  I  don’t  know, 
but  I  am  not  on  my  wards  at  all  times,  sir. 

Q.  Are  your  nurses  instructed  to  test  it?  A.  Dr.  Babcock  has 
charge  of  that. 

Q.  You  have  never  issued  any  instructions?  A.  I  have  never. 

Q.  Are  your  nurses  instructed  just  what  to  do  in  case  of  fire? 
A.  I  have  never  instructed  them. 

Q.  Are  you  instructed  what  to  do?  A.  Ring  the  fire  alarm. 

Q.  What  else?  A.  Nothing  more. 

Q.  Turn  in  the  fire  alarm  on  the  premises?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  think,  do  you  not,  that  you  could  get  the  patients  from 
the  wards  if  a  fire  should  get  beyond  control,  do  you  not?  A.  In 
some  of  the  wards  it  could  be  done  easily,  though  I  have  never 
been  in  a  fire  in  the  institution  since  I  have  been  here. 

Q.  You  think,  on  the  whole,  you  could  get  them  out  in  case  of  a 
fire  at  night?  A.  It  is  hard  to  say,  because  I  have  never  been  in 
anything  of  the  kind.  I  might  be  able  to  do  it,  and  still  I  might  not. 

Q.  I  wanted  your  opinion.  You  don’t  think,  do  you,  that  there 
is  danger  of  their  being  burned  through  the  need  of  adequate  pro¬ 
tection?  Don’t  you  think  that  on  your  wards  full  and  sufficient 
protective  precautions  are  taken  to  guard  them  in  case  of  fire  ?  A. 
On  some  of  my  wards  I  think  it  would  be  very  hard  to  save  every¬ 
body,  for  the  simple  reason  that  I  have  a  great  many  that  are 
unable  to  carry  themselves  or  to  walk,  and  with  the  number  of 
attendant  I  have,  I  don't  know  that  we  could  get  them  out. 

Mr.  Sawyer — You  could  hardly  wake  up  in  this  brick  building 
and  find  the  whole  thing  in  flames.  You  can’t  conceive  of  such  a 
thing,  of  how  it  might  be  burned,  and  the  patients  not  be  gotten  out, 
if  the  people  keep  their  heads — that  would  not  be  likely?  A.  It  is 
not  likely  that  we  would  have  a  fire  all  over  the  place  at  once. 


Mr.  Hardin — If  the  same  number  of  people  that  you  have  in  here 
were  in  a  hotel  in  this  city  or  any  other  city  and  it  was  to  be  burned, 
isn’t  it  likely  that  some  would  be  burned?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sawyer — Would  it  be  your  duty  for  you  to  go  down  into  those 
boxes  to  know  whether  or  not  the  hose  are  tested?  A.  I  don’t 
think  that  is  my  work  at  all. 

Q.  You  don’t  think  that  it  is?  A.  No,  sir;  I  think  I  have  all  I 
can  do  to  attend  to  what  I  have. 

Mr.  Harrison — I  did  not  conceive  that  it  was  your  duty  to  look 
into  that  matter  from  a  medical  standpoint  at  all  ?  A.  It  is  not  my 
business  to  know. 

Q.  How  about  chemical  extinguishers,  have  you  any  of  them  here? 
A.  As  far  as  I  know  there  are  none  on  the  wards. 

O.  Your  exits  from  those  wards  are  stairways,  are  they  not?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

0.  You  have  them  in  this  wing?  A.  It  corresponds  with  this 
wing. 

Q.  What  would  call  the  whole  institution  ?  What  is  the  fire  alarm 
for  the  institution,  the  alarm  to  awaken  everybody  in  case  of  fire? 
A.  I  don’t  know.  I  have  never  been  here  in  a  fire. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  anything  about  what  would  be  the  general 
alarm?  A.  Unless  it  would  be  the  ringing  of  the  bell  at  an  unusual 
hour. 

The  Chairman — There  is  a  general  rule,  I  believe,  is  there  not, 
in  case  of  fire  for  the  nurses  that  are  connected  with  the  institution 
to  save  the  patients  and  leave  it  to  the  fire  department  to  save  the 
property?  A.  We  have  instructions  to  save  life  regardless  of 
property. 

Q.  That  is  the  fire  instruction?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sawyer — Since  you  have  been  here  looking  over  the  institu¬ 
tion  both  as  to  the  male  side  and  the  female  side,  and  the  knowledge 
you  have  as  to  conditions  here,  the  shortcomings,  if  there  be  such, 
and  the  lack  of  system  that  has  been  testified  to,  about  the  lack  of 
system  and  discipline,  and  these  charges  which  you  no  doubt  have 
read,  about  the  mismanagement,  unwholesomeness  of  the  food,  and 
everything  of  that  kind,  the  vermin,  and  the  walls  being  filthy,  and 
all  those  things — comparatively  speaking,  so  far  as  you  are  able  to 
say,  making  a  reasonable  comparison,  taking  everything  into  con¬ 
sideration,  those  conditions  are  mainly  due  to  whatever  extent  they 
are,  whether  or  not  little  or  much,  to  the  lack  of  enough  assistance — 
no  trained  assistance  ?  A.  I  cannot  answer  anything  about  the  male 


department  for  this  reason.  I  don't  know  anything  of  the  working 
of  the  men  at  all,  and  I  cannot  tell  the  circumstances  or  anything 
like  that,  but  I  do  take  into  consideration  this,  that  on  the  wards 
where  the  women  are  and  the  work  is  done  by  the  women,  I  do 
expect  more  of  the  women  than  of  the  men. 

Q.  If  anything  is  necessary,  the  greatest  thing  is  more  help? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  one  of  the  institutions  I  visited  they  have  twelve  hundred 
patients  and  they  have  twelve  or  fourteen  physicians,  and  to  the 
number  of  patients  they  have  got  two  or  three  times  as  many  nurses 
as  we  have  here.  So,  if  there  is  anything  needed,  it  is  more  assist¬ 
ants?  A.  I  would  sum  everything  up  in  more  money.  With  that, 
we  could  get  nurses  on  the  men’s  wards.  We  could  get  better  fare, 
and  we  could  have  more  conveniences  for  them.  But  today  my 
patients,  as  I  understand,  get  everything  they  need.  They  do  not 
suffer  for  any  attention,  medical  or  otherwise. 

Q.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  the  most  of  this  conmplaint  has  come 
out  of  the  white  male  ward  and  the  colored  male  wards. 

Dr.  Thompson,  recalled,  testified  as  follows: 

Mr.  Bunch — In  your  testimony  yesterday  you  attacked  the  sani¬ 
tary  arrangements  around  the  dairy.  When  did  you  see  the  dairy? 
A.  Did  I  attack  the  sanitary  conditions?  I  don’t  remember  exceot 
in  this  way,  from  a  hospital  standpoint,  and  I  had  not  seen  any 
milking. 

Q.  Who  was  managing  the  dairy  when  you  saw  it?  A.  I  think 
Mr.  Branham. 

Q.  Don't  you  know,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  that  Mr.  Hedgepath,  the 
present  incumbent,  has  been  there  for  a  number  of  years,  doctor? 
A.  I  know  he  has  been  there  several  years. 

Q.  You  attacked  the  mess  hall  and  the  serving  of  the  food  in 
the  mess  hall.  You  also  attacked  the  dishes  in  the  ward,  in  that 
hall.  Who  selects  the  patients  that  go  there  to  serve?  A.  From 
my  department  ? 

Q.  Do  they  or  not  come  from  your  department?  A.  My  depart¬ 
ment. 

O.  Is  it,  or  is  it  not  a  fact,  that  Dr.  Hyman  several  years  ago 
asked  to  have  that  department  transferred  from  me  to  him?  A. 
That  is  what  I  understood,  sir. 

0.  Did  you  not  succeed  Dr.  Hyman?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  Isn’t  it  natural  to  presume  that  you  succeeded  to  the  duties  of 


298 


Dr.  Hyman?  A.  If  you  remember  I  asked  you  something  concern¬ 
ing  the  mess  hall  and  the  kitchen  and  you  said  you  did  not  know 
exactly  where  you  stood,  as  Dr.  Hyman  had  taken  it  from  your 
hands. 

Q.  You  condemned  in  a  general  way,  and  pretty  severely,  the 
preparation  of  the  food  in  that  kitchen,  did  you  not  do  that?  A.  I 
did,  yes,  sir,  from  a  sanitary  standpoint. 

Q.  You  have  been  Superintendent  here  a  good  many  times,  acting 
Superintendent?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  had  the  full  power  of  the  Superintendent  while  you  held 
that  position?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  make  any  suggestions  to  anybody  with  regard 
to  that  department?  A.  I  don’t  remember. 

Q.  Could  you  have?  A.  I  don’t  remember.  I  talked  on  several 
occasions  about  the  food. 

Q.  You  were  in  direct  touch  with  the  Regents  of  this  institution? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  made  your  reports  to  them  as  Dr.  Babcock  did,  when 
he  was  away?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  make  a  report  to  them  as  to  these  conditions? 
A.  I  did  not  to  the  Board  of  Regents,  because  I  never  attempted  to 
change  anything  during  the  doctor’s  absence.  We  discussed  that, 
not  especially  about  the  dining  rooms,  but  we  discussed  other  mat¬ 
ters,  and  thought  best  not  to  make  any  changes  at  all. 

Q.  You  did  make  changes  in  other  matters?  A.  We  could  have 
got  more  help  of  the  same  material  that  was  there.  It  would  be 
patients  similar  to  those  that  were  working  there. 

Q.  When  you  went  to  that  dairy,  you  say  the  conditions  that 
you  did  not  like — were  those  conditions  better  or  worse  than  when  1 
took  charge  of  the  dairy?  A.  I  don't  think  I  visited  it  when  they 
were  milking,  but  they  were  cleaning  up,  and  I  did  not  notice.  1 
don't  remember  exactly  the  words,  but  I  don’t  think  I  attempted,  I 
will  not  be  positive  of  my  exact  words,  but  I  said  I  did  not  go  there 
when  they  were  milking. 

Q.  Is  it  possible  to  keep  from  a  hundred  to  a  hundred  and  fifty 
cows  in  a  stable  without  those  cows  dropping,  dropping  some 
excrement  on  the  floor?  A.  It  is  impossible. 

0.  We  have  got  a  cement  floor?  A.  We  have. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  told  how  often  that  dairy  has  been 
scoured?  A.  I  could  not  tell  you  how  often  it  has  been  scoured, 
but  it  has  been  often. 


Q.  As  a  matter  of  fact  that  dairy  has  been  scoured  every  day. 
A.  I  had  reference  to  the  patients  that  did  the  milking,  to  their 
condition,  and  it  was  not  sanitary. 

Q.  Do  you  ever  remember,  when  we  had  hired  men  there  to  do 
that  milking,  that  some  of  them  were  reported  as  having  syphilis 
and  gonorrhoea?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  Has  any  patient  that  has  been  milking  in  that  dairy  since  ever 
had  gonorrhoea  or  syphilis?  A.  Never  reported. 

Q.  It  would  not  be  possible  if  Dr.  Griffin  would  do  his  duty  to 
keep  those  patients  who  had  syphilis  or  gonorrhoea  from  going  to 
the  dairy  ?  A.  I  can  state  this,  that  there  have  been  employees 
working  about  the  dairy,  when  in  the  last  two  years  I  stopped  a 
man  from  working  and  reported  it  to  Dr.  Babcock. 

Q.  What  man  was  that  ?  A.  One  of  the  regular  employees,  not  a 
patient. 

Q.  Was  it  the  time  you  reported  it  to  me?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Didn’t  I  turn  him  off?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  he  ever  have  charge  of  that  department?  A.  No,  sir, 
not  that  I  heard  of. 

Q.  What  did  he  do?  A.  I  heard  he  was  handling  things  about  the 
dairy  at  that  time. 

Q.  He  was  discharged  immediately  after  you  reported  him,  was 
he  not?  A.  Since  then  I  have  heard — 

0.  That  he  is  working  as  a  farm  hand?  A.  I  have  heard  he  was 
employed  on  the  farm.  I  did  not  hear  that  he  was  connected  with 
the  milking.  I  did  not  have  any  recollection  of  it,  Mr.  Bunch,  when 
I  made  -the  statement.  I  was  asked  was  it  in  a  sanitary  condition, 
would  I  consider  it  in  a  sanitary  condition.  I  know  how  he  was 
situated.  I  could  not  say  it  was  perfectly  sanitary.  We  all  know 
how  milk  is,  how  contaminated  milk  is  under  the  most  careful 
handling. 

The  Chairman — As  I  understand  it,  you  did  not  intend  to  say 
that  Mr.  Bunch  was  responsible  for  the  condition  of  affairs  there 
in  the  kitchen  ?  A.  I  was  laboring  under  a  misapprehension.  Or. 
several  occasions  I  have  gone  to  Mr.  Bunch  about  the  fare,  and  1 
was  under  the  impression  that  it  was  a  part  of  his  business  to  attend 
to  the  kitchen,  but  I  have  learned  since  that  that  is  not  his  business, 
and  I  withdraw  that  statement  as  to  his  being  in  charge  of  the 
kitchen,  as  being  the  head  officer  of  the  kitchen. 

Mr.  Sawyer — What  would  have  to  be  done  to  make  it  sanitary 
from  a  hospital  standpoint?  What  would  you  say  would  be  neces- 


300 


sary  ?  A.  As  we  understand  it  now,  I  don't  see  how  it  can  be 
made  so. 

Mr.  Carey — Why?  A.  With  the  patients  working  there. 

Mr.  Sawyer — The  principal  thing  is  that  these  dirty  negro  patients 
milk?  A.  That  is  the  point. 

0.  That  is  the  worst  part  of  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Haven’t  they  got  sense  enough  to  know  how  to  wash  their 
hands?  A.  That  is  the  condition  not  only  in  the  dairy  but  through¬ 
out  the  building.  I  have  been  dealing  with  them  for  twenty  years. 

The  Chairman — As  I  understand  it,  they  use  patients  sent  out 
from  the  Taylor  building?  A.  Yes,  sir,  they  select  the  neatest  and 
healthiest  patients,  and  those  less  apt  to  run  away. 

O.  They  are  selected  by  those  in  authority  over  the  Taylor 
building?  A.  Yes,  sir.  When  we  give  the  supervisor  or  man  in 
charge  patients  to  go  to  the  dairy  or  out  on  the  farm  to  work  we 
caution  him  to  watch  them  so  that  they  will  not  run  away.  We 
have  in  a  good  many  instances  sent  them  out  and  they  have  run 
away.  Therefore,  we  are  hampered  in  getting  the  most  intelligent 
patients  to  go  to  the  dairy. 

Mr.  Bunch — Do  you,  or  do  you  not,  know  that  the  patients  that 
go  out  to  that  dairy  are  divided  after  they  get  there,  and  some  of 
them  they  use  for  carrying  manure  from  the  cows,  and  that  those 
are  used  for  feeding  purposes,  and  that  the  best  of  them  are  used  in 
milking  the  cows?  A.  I  know  there  was  a  division  as  to  that  work. 

Mr.  Sawyer — You  testified  here  this  morning  that  you  had  made 
some  complaints,  various  complaints  to  Dr.  Babcock  about  things 
needed  over  in  that  white  male  department,  and  that  he  would  not 
make  much  reply.  Do  you  feel  or  is  it  your  opinion  that  Dr.  Bab¬ 
cock  shows  any  favoritism  towards  the  female  wards  as  compared 
to  the  male  wards,  shows  any  more  attention  to  these  female  wards, 
any  more  than  the  nature  of  the  case  would  demand?  A.  It  has 
been  my  feeling  for  some  time  that  wherever  the  doctor  is  mostly 
at  these  are  the  places  that  get  the  most  attention.  It  brings  his 
mind,  his  attention,  to  things  that  he  is  looking  after. 

Q.  Do  you  mean  that  he  or  any  other  man  would  not  do  more 
for  the  women  than  for  the  men?  A.  No,  no  more. 

0.  You  don’t  think  he  would  rather  do  for  them?  A.  I  don’t 
think  he  meant  to  show  any  favoritism,  but  that  has  been  where  he 
has  been  working,  He  has  not  been  working  on  my  side  for  a 
number  of  years. 

Q.  You  are  first  assistant?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


301 


Q.  He  would  not  visit  you  very  often?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  not  it  perfectly  natural  elsewhere  and  leave  it  to  you ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  don't  think  he  has  shown  any  favoritism?  A.  Except 
in  this  way,  as  I  stated,  where  the  doctor  goes,  where  he  attends 
the  most,  there  will  be  the  most  of  the  work  done  because  he  sees 
it,  and  always  keeps,  in  other  words,  in  touch  with  it. 

Q.  You  testified  this  morning  that  you  had  found  that  the  patients, 
if  I  understood  you,  that  the  patients  in  this  institution  had  some 
kind  of  feeling  against  Dr.  Babcock,  in  your  department  ?  A.  I  have 
heard  several  patients,  not  two,  but  several,  make  the  remark  that 
they  never  could  see  Dr.  Babcock,  also  the  Board  of  Regents,  and 
that  they  could  not  get  their  requests  through  to  him  for  whatever 
they  might  wish.  I  go  to  him  for  different  things,  and  in  that  way 
it  makes  me  feel  that  while  they  don’t  suffer,  they  have  the  feeling 
that  they  are  not  attended  to  by  the  head  officer  of  the  institution  as 
they  should  be. 

Q.  Is  not  that  uncomplimentary  to  you  that  they  are  not  satisfied 
with  what  you  do?  A.  If  they  want  to  get  out  I  cannot  discharge 
them.  I  say,  I  cannot  release  you,  you  must  go  to  the  head  officer 
of  the  institution. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  that  you  thought  ought  to  be  turned  out  ? 
A.  I  cannot  recollect  a  single  one. 

Q.  You  don’t  know  of  any?  A.  That  complaint  is  unjust,  and  one 
that  arises  when  any  officer  walks  through.  Some  have  the  same 
feeling  towards  me.  Naturally  with  the  head  of  the  institution 
and  their  wishing  to  see  him  for  a  long  time,  why  it  makes  that 
feeling  greater  against  him. 

Mr.  Carey — Wasn’t  that  the  proper  and  regular  way  to  reach 
him — through  you?  A.  The  only  way. 

Mr.  Sawyer — Do  you  think  it  is  practical  for  him,  with  those 
other  wards  on  his  hands,  to  go  around  ?  I  notice  you  spoke  about 
that  a  little  and  passed  on.  I  understand  that  is  a  rule  you  have  got 
here,  for  you  to  report  these  things  to  Dr.  Babcock.  Do  you  think 
it  is  possible  for  Dr.  Babcock  to  listen  to  all  such  things?  I  heard 
a  man,  Mr.  Berry,  talking  out  there.  He  wanted  to  get  out  of  here. 
That  man  talks  sensibly.  Here  it  goes  into  print  that  these  men  have 
feeling  against  Dr.  Babcock.  In  your  department  you  say  it  is 
because  they  don’t  get  to  see  him,  because  they  do  not  get  to  talk 
to  him?  A.  Don’t  you  think  that  is  a  feeling? 

O.  Yes,  sir,  but  it  does  not  strike  me  that  that  kind  of  feeling 


3°2 


ought  to  go  in  our  report  that  they  have  a  feeling  against  Dr. 
Babcock,  because  they  do  not  have  a  chance  to  see  and  talk  to  him. 
A.  Of  course,  when  they  do  not  see  him  at  all. 

Q.  They  never  do  see  him?  In  your  wards  they  do  not  see  him? 
A.  I  stated  the  other  day  that  I  had  not  seen  him  there. 

Q.  I  imagine  that  the  doctor  would  say  that,  after  your  twenty- 
eight  years  of  faithful  service,  if  there  is  anybody  he  could  turn 
these  matters  over  to  it  ought  to  be  you.  You  ought  to  be  the  man? 
A.  These  reports  do  come  through  me  to  the  doctor. 

Q.  And  there  is  an  opportunity  for  that  to  be  done?  A.  There 
is  some  feeling  as  to  their  not  being  allowed  to  see  the  head  officer. 
I  see  them  daily,  not  every  one,  but  I  see  a  majority  of  them  twice 
a  day  and  they  come  to  me  with  these  complaints.  I  don’t  think  he 
does  his  duty  in  that  particular.  I  would  not  expect  him  to  go  over 
that  ward  every  day,  or  every  other  day,  but  I  think  that  if  he  could 
visit  my  wards  occasionally,  it  would  make  the  conditions  better. 

Mr.  Carey — Did  you  ever  ask  him  to  visit  the  wards  ?  A.  I  have 
not  asked  him,  but  I  reported  the  things  that  I  thought  would  be 
sufficient  for  him  to  know  how  things  were  there. 

Q.  When  you  made  reports  to  him,  did  you  consider  that  that 
implied  that  he  had  confidence  in  you,  or  that  he  was  negligent  ?  A. 
He  would  say,  all  right,  I  will  attend  to  it,  look  into  it,  or  something 
like  that.  He  would  not  say  for  me  to  go  on  and  correct  it. 

Q.  There  was  some  special  stress  laid  on  this  walking  exercise 
that  these  patients  should  be  permitted  to  do  around  here.  I  under¬ 
stand  that  you  say  that  that  is  not  required,  that  these  patients  were 
not  forced  to  take  any  exercise,  any  regular  exercise  on  the  grounds 
or  on  the  outside,  how  about  that?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  would  be  advisable  to  walk  these  patients 
outside  of  these  grounds?  A.  A  good  many  of  them,  if  we  had 
plenty  of  nurses,  we  could  walk  a  good  many  on  the  farm. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  institution  where  they  walk  around  on 
the  streets?  A.  We  used  to  do  it. 

O.  Do  you  think  it  would  be  advisable  to  walk  them  around  and 
let  the  public  look  at  them  and  stare  at  them?  Wouldn't  that  have 
a  tendency  to  irritate  them  ?  A.  In  some  cases. 

0.  I  don’t  think,  it  exactly  the  proper  thing  for  women  and 
children  in  all  conditions  to  see  these  patients.  A.  Some  of  them 
it  would  not  be.  I  am  not  insisting  upon  taking  them  on  the  out¬ 
side.  But  we  should  have  better  arrangements  for  walking. 

O.  Isn't  it  better  really  for  the  patients?  Here  is  a  large  ground 


303 


and  a  very  creditable  ground  compared  with  other  institutions. 
Here  is  a  large  ground  and  every  opportunity.  Do  you  think  it 
would  prove  more  satisfactory  to  let  them  have  the  liberty  of  just 
going  as  they  feel  disposed,  than  it  would  be  for  them  to  march 
around  in  two’s?  After  awhile  the  pleasure  would  turn  into  work, 
and  they  would  think  that  they  would  have  to  go.  A.  That  is  a 
matter  of  opinion. 

Q.  I  am  asking  for  your  opinion?  A.  I  think  exercise  is  very 
important. 

Q.  Exercise,  sunlight  and  fresh  air,  which  do  you  think  is  best? 
You  are  an  expert  on  these  matters.  Which  do  you  think  is  best, 
which  is  best  or  most  important  of  them,  if  you  can  say?  A.  The 
greatest  part  of  the  time  here  I  think  it  would  be  best  to  walk  them 
out,  a  number  of  them,  not  all.  It  is  impossible  to  get  them  all  out. 

The  Chairman — What  was  the  suggestion,  if  you  had  more  nurses, 
you  would  like  to  be  able  to  give  them  walks  around  the  360  acres 
as  well  as  on  the  yard  of  one  or  two  acres,  is  that  it?  A.  That  is 
it.  We  don’t  take  them  on  the  streets.  Very  seldom  we  take  a 
single  one.  We  take  them  on  the  farm. 

Q.  How  many  acres  have  you  employed  now?  A.  Three  or  four 
acres  in  there. 

Mr.  Hardin — Are  they  ever  permitted  to  go  to  any  shows  or 
circuses  or  anything  of  that  kind?  A.  Very  few.  We  did  let  a  few 
go  to  the  baseball  last  year,  and  there  have  been  one  or  two  that 
have  been  allowed  to  go  to  the  theatre. 

Mr.  Carey — It  would  be  too  exciting?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Hardin — Parades  or  anything  like  that  ?  A.  Circuses  or 
anything  in  the  nature  of  parade  on  the  streets? 

Q.  Yes,  do  they  seem  to  enjoy  or  like  that?  A.  They  enjoy  it 
very  much.  The  biggest  part  of  the  patients  are  anxious  to  go. 
They  clamor  to  go.  That  is  something  unusual  to  them,  and  any¬ 
thing- that  excites  them,  they  seem  to  enjoy  more. 

Mr.  Bunch — Doctor,  it  was  the  custom  of  this  institution  for  a 
number  of  years  for  all  the  patients  that  were  able  to  go  attended 
to  the  State  Fairs,  is  that  not  right?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Why  was  it  discontinued?  A.  Because  the  fair  grounds  were 
removed  to  such  a  distance  that  it  was  impossible  for  us  to  get  there. 
That  was  three  or  four  or  five  years  ago. 

Mr.  Sawyer — These  charges  go  a  good  long  piece  about  the 
filth  that  is  kept  in  these  corridors.  Did  you  observe  that  I  had 
called  this  to  the  attention  of  Mr.  Mitchell,  and  he  testified  that  he 


304 


did  not  have  authority  to  make  these  people  do  it,  and  you  are 
right  over  him?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  in  daily  contact  with  him?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  complained  to  Dr.  Babcock,  and  he  did  not  do  it. 
Mr.  Mitchell  testified,  as  I  understood  him,  that  soiled  tubs  or 
buckets  with  filthy  matter  in  them  were  left  sitting  right  outside 
of  the  patient's  doors.  He  testified,  I  think,  that  he  would  have 
them  removed.  A.  I  have  myself  moved  those  things. 

O.  While  Dr.  Babcock  was  away,  or  even  if  Dr.  Babcock  was 
here,  and  von  knew  of  those  things,  could  you  not  force  those  things 
to  be  cleaned  without  taking  it  up  with  Dr.  Babcock?  A.  I  tried  to 
have  it  done,  but  I  had  lost  control  of  these  nurses. 

Q.  How  did  you  lose  control  of  them?  A.  Their  fewness  in 
number,  their  not  being  loyal,  and  also  being  unreliable. 

Mr.  Carey — Do  you  have  the  same  control  over  your  wards  that 
Dr.  Saunders  has  over  hers?  A.  The  same  power? 

Q.  Yes,  sir.  A.  Yes,  sir,  but  I  cannot  get  the  nurses  to  do  as 
they  should.  They  would  just  as  leave  give  up  their  jobs.  I  don’t 
mean  to  say  that  all  are  that  way,  but  there  are  a  good  many 
instances  of  that  kind. 

Mr.  Hardin — Did  you  ever  have  any  patients  to  scour  the  wards, 
any  servants  of  any  kind,  either  patients  or  hired  help?  A.  We 
had  some  colored  females  that  came  over  once  last  year. 

Q.  Was  there  any  demand  to  have  them  over  after  that?  A. 
No,  sir,  not  to  my  knowledge. 

0.  I  believe  you  stated  yesterday,  and  it  is  very  true,  I  think,  as  a 
general  rule,  that  female  patients  are  more  cleanly  and  easier  to 
manage  than  male  patients?  A.  They  are. 

0.  They  are  more  cleanly?  A.  Females  are  natural  housekeepers. 
Then,  they  have  over  on  that  side  several  scrubbers  that  do  nothing 
but  scrub.  They  go  from  ward  to  ward,  from  one  to  the  other, 
and  in  that  way  they  can  keep  down  a  lot  of  the  bad  odors  and 
dirt,  etc.  During  the  last  few  years  we  have  had  the  principal  part 
of  that  work  done  by  patients  on  the  wards. 

Q.  Generally  speaking  most  any  building  where  there  are  no 
ladies  at  all  will  become  more  or  less  unclean,  is  not  that  so?  A. 
Yes,  sir.  I  would  like  to  say  that  I  have  not  the  least  ill  feeling 
towards  Dr.  Babcock  or  any  officer  of  this  institution.  I  just  do  not 
feel  that  my  department  has  been  in  touch  with  those  who  could 
have  helped  me  out  if  they  had  come  around  oftener.  That  is  the 


305 


way  I  feel.  I  have  done  my  best.  I  admit  that  part  of  this  condi¬ 
tion  is  due  to  me,  but  I  have  done  my  best  to  correct  it. 

Dr.  Ray — Are  not  there  chances  for  the  nurses  on  your  wards  to 
get  more  lucrative  positions  on  the  outside  more  so  than  on  the 
female  side?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  you  get  hold  of  a  man  and  he  proves  beneficial  to  the 
institution,  isn’t  he  immediately  hired  somewhere  else  and  you  cannot 
keep  efficient  nurses  here  ?  A.  That  is  certainly  the  condition  about 
keeping  male  nurses  here. 

Q.  Why  did  you  discontinue  allowing  patients  to  go  out  in  the 
streets  ?  I  remember  when  I  was  up  here  I  used  to  see  them  go  out 
into  the  streets  frequently.  A.  My  recollection  is  that  we  did  not 
want  them  exposed  to  the  gaze  and  stare  of  the  city. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  if  they  were  allowed  to  do  it  now  they  would 
be  subjected  to  the  same  gaze  and  stare?  A.  Not  in  the  yard  or  on 
the  farm. 

Q.  Have  we  any  places?  A.  We  have  driveways,  no  walks. 

Q.  Not  very  good?  A.  No,  sir,  at  certain  seasons  they  are  not. 

Q.  When  you  were  Superintendent  last  summer,  did  you  make 
any  reports  of  any  repairs  made  by  you  as  acting  Superintendent? 
A.  No,  sir,  except  the  ordinary  daily  reports. 

Q.  You  called  the  condition  of  these  floors  to  the  hoard  on  several 
occasions?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  we  were  regretting  the  fact  that  we  did  not  have  the 
means.  Isn't  there  a  plan  on  foot  to  take  up  these  and  replace 
them  by  cement  floors,  which  are  to  be  put  in  as  soon  as  we  can 
get  the  means?  A.  There  was  a  plan  on  foot  to  put  those  floors  in 
certain  parts  of  the  building  as  soon  as  we  could  get  the  money  to 
do  it  with. 

Q.  Uncleanliness  is  not  due  to  a  lack  of  co-operation  on  the 
part  of  the  Superintendent?  A.  Not  if  he  had  gone  through  and 
seen  it. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  you  could  have  superintended  that  yourself? 
A.  I  tried  to. 

Q.  Soap  and  water  has  been  furnished?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  can’t  expect  men  to  be  as  clean  as  women?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  The  feeling  of  the  patients  against  Dr.  Babcock  is  largely 
due  to  the  fact  that  when  they  apply  to  you,  all  you  will  say  is 
that  you  will  have  to  see  Dr.  Babcock,  and  because  he  has  to  refuse 
these  requests,  don’t  they  get  vexed  with  him  for  that?  A.  Vexed? 
J  don’t  know. 


20— A. 


3°6 


Q.  Every  fellow  that  he  lets  get  out  says  he  is  a  fairly  good  man  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  those  people  he  cannot  possibly  permit  to  get  out  are 
against  him?  A.  Yes,  sir,  the  longer  he  stays  away  the  stronger 
this  feeling  grows. 

Q.  Isn’t  it  impossible  to  visit  your  wards  and  do  all  the  work  he 
has  to  do?  A.  It  looks  as  if  you  could  not  expect  that. 

Q.  If  you  have  seen  a  patient  and  want  to  consult  him,  it  is  all 
right?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  is  physically  impossible  for  him  to  come  in  contact  with 
these  inmates  regularly.  So  far  as  vermin  is  concerned,  those  who 
are  immediately  in  charge  in  your  judgment  are  responsible,  and 
not  Dr.  Babcock,  if  he  supplies  the  means?  A.  If  he  had  had  the 
work  done  he  intended  to  do.  It  was  taken  up  six  months  ago,  but 
it  has  never  been  done. 

Q.  You  spoke  about  the  patients  employed  in  the  dairy.  As  a 
matter  of  fact,  weren't  we  forced  to  do  it  by  reason  of  the 
fact  that  the  appropriation  had  not  been  enough  to  carry  on  the  work, 
and  we  had  to  put  the  patients  there  to  do  that  work  to  save  money? 
A.  Yes,  sir.  At  the  same  time  I  heard  it  was  to  overcome  a  strike, 
too. 

Q.  Then  there  was  a  strike?  A.  Yes,  sir.  Don’t  understand 
that  I  am  censuring.  The  question  was  asked  if  it  was  in  a  sanitary 
condition  from  a  hospital  point  of  view.  That  is  why  I  made  the 
statement.  I  did  not  mean  to  censure  Dr.  Babcock.  The  question 
was  asked  if  from  a  hospital  standpoint  it  was  sanitary,  was  it  in 
a  sanitary  condition. 

Air.  Sawyer — When  you  read  this  testimony  it  will  impress  you 
that  you  said  some  pretty  hard  things  about  these  conditions  in  your 
ward,  and  that  that  condition  is  due  to  a  lack  of  co-operation,  and  on 
account  of  the  fact  that  Dr.  Babcock  would  not  go  and  visit,  that 
you  could  not  get  him  to  do  these  things,  that  there  was  a  lack  of 
system  and  these  nurses  would  not  do  their  work,  and  that  you 
referred  it  to  him  and  he  would  not  turn  them  off,  and  it  puts  you  in 
the  position  of  testifying  that  he  has  been  inefficient  in  the  discharge 
of  his  duty  as  Superintendent. 

Dr.  Ray — A  certain  man  says,  Dr.  Thompson  gave  Dr.  Babcock 
hell  yesterday.  A.  That  is  the  way  I  felt  about  it.  I  feel  I  did  my 
duty  about  it. 

The  Chairman — You  don’t  retract  any  of  the  testimony  you  gave 
this  morning?  A.  I  don’t  see  how  I  can. 


30/ 


Mr.  Sawyer — I  think  it  was  your  business  to  clean  it  up.  A.  I 
admit  I  am  at  fault.  I  am  willing  to  bear  my  part  of  it. 

Dr.  Ray — I  think,  as  far  as  cleanliness  is  concerned,  it  is  your 
fault  as  far  as  you  are  able  to  deal  with  it.  It  is  up  to  you. 

(The  Commission  thereupon  adjourned  until  18  May,  1909,  at 
11  130  A.  M.) 


Columbia,  S.  C.,  May  18,  1909. 

Pursuant  to  adjournment,  the  Commission  met  this  day  at  3 
o'clock  P.  M.,  the  Chairman  presiding. 

Present :  All  the  members  of  the  Commission  except  Dr.  Sawyer. 

The  Committee  was  called  to  order. 

The  Chairman — The  Committee  has  decided  to  ask  the  Regents  if 
they  desired  to  make  any  statement. 

Dr.  Taylor — The  statement  of  the  Regents  will  be  made  by  Dr. 
Babcock  in  accordance  with  the  understanding  last  week,  and  the 
reasons  for  the  investigation. 

Dr.  Babcock — 1  have  not  made  any  special  preparation  to  make  a 
statement  of  the  affairs  of  the  institution  to  the  Commission.  If  you 
wish  me  to  do  so  in  an  off-hand  way,  I  can  do  so  now. 

The  Chairman — Would  you  prefer  to  have  it  postponed  until 
tomorrow  ? 

Dr.  Babcock — I  think  it  might  be  fairer  to  the  Board  of  Regents 
if  I  had  some  notes  or  something  of  that  kind  to  present  to  you. 
What  you  would  like  to  have  me  say  would  be  an  account  of  the 
administration  of  the  affairs  of  the  institution  since  I  have  been 
here  under  the  Board  of  Regents. 

Mr.  Carey — We  would  like  to  have  it  in  the  nature  of  an  exami¬ 
nation. 

Dr.  Babcock — That  suits  me  very  well. 

The  Chairman — We  wish  to  get  your  suggestions  either  now  or 
later  as  to  what  the  Legislature  should  do. 

Dr.  Babcock — I  should  like  a  little  preparation  on  that.  Whatever 
questions  you  wish  to  ask  me,  I  am  as  well  prepared  now  as  I  ever 
shall  be,  but  as  far  as  any  comprehensive  statement  as  to  what  I 
think  the  needs  of  the  institution  are,  I  don't  think  I  can  do  justice 
to  that  in  an  off-hand  way.  I  ought  to  be  better  prepared  than  I  am 
at  the  present  moment.  I  had  no  notice  that  I  was  to  be  called  upon 
this  afternoon. 

The  Chairman — Would  the  Commission  prefer  to  wait  until  later? 


3°8 


Mr.  Hardin — In  view  of  the  fact  that  a  member  of  our  Committee 
is  absent,  Dr.  Sawyer,  we  had  better  postpone  his  examination. 

Mr.  Dick — I  move  that  we  postpone  the  hearing  from  Dr.  Bab¬ 
cock,  not  only  on  account  of  Dr.  Babcock,  but  in  deference  to  Dr. 
Sawyer. 

Mr.  Bunch — I  am  not  prepared  to  make  any  suggestions  or 
anything  of  that  sort.  I  am  just  the  agent  of  the  board.  I  run  the 
farm.  I  would  be  glad  to  answer  any  questions  you  wish  to  ask. 

Mr.  Hardin — I  would  like  to  hear  you  in  regard  to  the  farm. 

Mr.  Bunch— I  would  prefer  that  you  ask  me  questions,  and  bring 
out  anything  you  want  to  know  about  it.  I  am  as  well  prepared 
now  as  I  ever  will  be. 

Mr.  J.  W.  Bunch,  sworn,  says : 

Mr.  Hardin — Tell  us  how  many  acres  you  cultivate?  A.  I  really 
don’t  know  just  how  many  there  are.  There  are  360  acres  in  the 
tract.  There  must  be  something  like  one  hundred  acres  in  the 
grounds  and  yards,  and  cow  lots  and  hog  lots,  etc.  So,  that  would 
leave  us  something  like  250  acres  in  cultivation. 

Q.  Tell  us  what  you  make  on  the  farm?  A.  What  we  make? 

0.  I  mean  your  crops  of  corn,  cabbage,  and  things  of  that  kind 
what  grows  on  the  farm?  A.  We  grow  corn,  cabbage,  beans,  all 
kinds  of  vegetables  pretty  much,  oats  enough  for  the  cows,  etc. 

Q.  What  do  you  do  with  the  vegetables  grown  on  the  farm?  A. 
Feed  them  to  the  patients  here,  and  we  sold  last  year  about  $250.00 
worth. 

0.  The  corn  is  used  here  at  the  institution?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  head  of  cattle  have  you?  A.  The  cattle  vary  all 
the  time  because  we  are  butchering.  I  find  that  we  killed  last 
month,  I  think  about  132,  something  like  that. 

Q.  Do  you  make  enough  milk  to  supply  the  institution?  A.  No. 
we  do  not. 

0.  How  many  did  you  say  you  milked?  A.  About  132,  say  130  in 
round  numbers.  They  vary.  They  are  constantly  going  dry,  and 
coming  in  fresh  cqnstantly. 

Q.  Do  you  make  enough  roughness  on  the  farm  to  feed  the  cattle  ? 
A.  We  make  all  we  use  and  sell  some. 

Q.  Really,  you  think  the  farm  is  more  than  self-sustaining?  A. 
Well,  in  the  reports  it  looks  like  it,  sir. 

0.  Can  you  give  us  any  idea  how  much  corn  you  made  last  year  ? 
A.  We  estimate  that  we  made  from  7.500  bushels  to  8,000  bushels. 
I  have  got  some  notes  in  the  other  room. 


3°9 


Q.  I  think  we  want  that  information.  There  have  been  charges 
here,  and  you  can  tell  us?  A.  The  amount  of  corn  produced  last 
year  was  7,500  bushels,  we  had  on  hand  the  first  day  of  January 
of  this  year.  That  is  estimated,  of  course.  We  killed  $1,644.80 
worth  of  bacon  and  pork  during  the  year.  The  value  of  the  milk 
last  year  amounted  to  $18,233.55.  The  value  of  the  vegetables  used 
at  the  asylum  last  year  amounted  to  $19,405.93.  The  profit  on  the 
farm,  charging  up  all  that  we  produced,  all  that  we  had  on  hand 
at  the  beginning  of  the  year,  all  the  labor  and  all  expenses  of  other 
kinds,  and  deducting— crediting  ourselves  with  what  we  furnished  to 
the  institution  and  what  we  had  on  hand  during  the  progress  of 
the  year,  we  had  during  the  year  a  profit  of  between  nineteen  and 
twenty  thousand  dollars  on  the  farm  investment.  I  had  the  editor  of 
the  Southern  Cultivator  to  go  over  these  items  with  me,  and  I  asked 
him  if  he  thought  I  had  charged  too  much  for  anything.  He  said 
that  I  charged  too  little,  that  they  were  worth  really  more  than  I 
charged  the  institution.  I  have  my  annual  report  here. 

Q.  Your  farm  is  in  a  high  state  of  cultivation?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I 
commenced  this  farm  in  1891.  At  that  time  it  was  estimated  that 
this  farm  produced  six  hundred  and  fifty  bushels  of  corn.  I  came 
here  in  March,  and  they  did  not  have  a  grain  of  corn  or  a  blade  of 
fodder  on  the  place.  They  valued  the  bacon  that  year  at  $521.40. 
The  value  of  the  milk  amounted  to  about  four  thousand  dollars,  and 
the  value  of  the  vegetables  nearly  three  thousand  dollars. 

0.  You  have  a  supply  of  hogs  on  hand  now,  have  you  not?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  we  have  about  four  hundred  hogs  on  hand  at  present,  and 
I  want  to  state  in  reference  to  the  bacon  proposition  that  while  we 
have  only  $1,644.80  to  our  credit  for  last  year’s  bacon,  the  last  fall 
was  very  warm,  more  so  than  usual,  and  the  bulk  of  the  bacon  has 
been  killed  since  the  fiscal  year  ended  on  the  first  of  January.  If 
we  could  credit  ourselves  with  the  amount  of  bacon  killed  after  the 
first  of  January,  due  to  the  warm  weather,  this  would  be  increased 
very  materially. 

Q.  You  raised  quite  a  quantity  of  oats  on  the  farm?  A.  We 
usually  thresh  about  twenty-five  hundred  bushels  after  feeding  the 
mules  in  rough  oats  a  month  or  so. 

Q.  How  many  mules  have  you  on  hand  now?  A.  We  have  about 
eighteen  head  of  mules  on  hand  at  the  farm  now.  Not  all  of  those 
are  used  on  the  farm,  because  it  takes  some  of  them  to  bring  the 
milk.  One  does  not  do  anything  except  at  the  dairy.  Two  others 


3ID 


do  not  do  anything  but  bring  in  the  milk  and  take  out  the  slops,  etc., 
the  swill. 

Q.  How  much  corn  do  you  make  to  the  acre  as  an  average?  A. 
I  don't  know  about  the  average  on  the  level  about  the  soldiers’  home. 
We  ran  from  seventy  to  seventy-five  bushels  on  the  whole  place 
there.  On  some  of  the  acres  we  made  over  a  hundred  bushels,  but 
there  were  other  places  where  it  got  badly  burned,  got  caught  in  a 
drought  in  August  and  September,  and  some  of  that  corn  was  pretty 
badly  injured.  We  ought  to  have  made  a  good  deal  more  corn  than 
we  did. 

Q.  You  furnish  corn  to  be  ground  into  grits  for  the  institution? 
A.  It  is  raised  on  the  farm,  all  raised  on  the  farm — not  all,  practically 
all.  Sometimes  the  mill  gets  out  of  order  and  we  buy  a  few  sacks 
of  meal  or  grits. 

Q.  You  have  never  sent  any  corn  to  be  ground  that  had  weevils 
in  it  ?  A.  I  cannot  say  that.  It  is  impossible  almost  to  keep  the 
weevils  out,  but  the  meal  and  grits  is  a  good  deal  better  than  we 
can  buy.  I  am  always  glad  to  get  home-raised  corn  meal  myself, 
I  prefer  it. 

Q.  Don't  you  regard  that  as  more  wholesome?  A.  Certainly. 
It  is  sweeter  and  more  nutritious.  All  Southern  corn  is  more  whole¬ 
some  than  Northern  and  Western  corn  because  it  has  a  longer 
period  in  which  to  mature,  and  it  is  fully  ripened  in  the  fields.  At 
the  North  it  cannot  be  done  so  well  as  here. 

0.  You  have  charge  of  the  dairy?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Tell  how  you  have  the  milking  done  there?  A.  The  milking 
is  done  solely  by  patients. 

Q.  Have  you  cement  floors  there?  A.  Yes,  sir,  we  scour  that 
dairy  once  a  day.  The  men  are  expected  to  bathe  their  hands  every 
time  before  they  milk  and  bathe  the  cow’s  udders. 

Q.  Are  your  cattle  in  a  healthy  condition?  A.  I  think  they  are 
in  the  best  condition  of  anybody’s  I  know  of  at  all.  They  have  that 
appearance. 

Mr.  Harrison- — Mr.  Bunch,  why  is  the  milking  done  by  the 
patients  ?  Explain  to  the  Committee.  A.  I  will  be  glad  to.  Several 
years  ago  we  had  great  difficulty  in  keeping  hired  men.  There 
was  a  strike  on  and  they  dropped  out.  That  was  one  reason.  I  had 
been  advocating  this  to  Dr.  Babcock  before  that,  though.  I  said 
that  the  patients  would  be  better  for  other  reasons.  One  is  a 
sanitary  reason.  When  I  had  hired  men  there,  negroes,  it  was 
impossible  to  get  them  to  change  their  clothes  at  all.  We  could  not 


force  them  to  bathe,  and  they  were  frequently  reported  to  me  as 
being  afflicted  with  gonorrhoea  and  syphilis,  and  I  had  to  fire  several 
men  there  on  that  account,  and  I  think  myself  that  the  patient  labor 
is  decidedly  the  better  proposition  outside  of  an  economical  one. 

Q.  Do  you  pay  the  patients  for  their  labor?  A.  We  pay  them 
a  nominal  sum.  We  pay  them  a  dollar  a  month,  the  regular  patients, 
and  then  we  have  some  that  we  pay  more  as  they  are  getting  better, 
and  it  is  a  step  towards  going  home.  We  sometimes  pay  them  a 
little  more  money  for  a  short  period. 

Q.  You  keep  them  there  until  you  find  out  whether  they  are  ready 
to  go  home?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  It  is  charged  that  the  operation  of  the  farm  connected  with 
the  hospital  is  expensive  and  not  businesslike,  and  that  by  reason 
thereof  many  such  articles  as  flour,  bacon,  meal,  grits,  cabbages  and 
potatoes,  and  other  articles  have  to  be  bought  which  are  used,  have 
to  be  bought  instead  of  raised  on  the  farm.  That  is  one  of  the 
charges.  That  is  one  of  the  charges  that  you  are  called  upon  to 
answer?  A.  I  would  rather  that  some  one  else  would  answer 
whether  it  is  conducted  on  businesslike  principles. 

Q.  You  have  charge  of  it.  You  can  tell  how  you  manage  it? 
A.  I  do  the  best  I  can  to  conduct  it  on  a  businesslike  principle. 

Q.  The  amount  you  raise  strikes  me —  A.  I  study  this  harder 
than  anything  else  in  the  world.  1  take  more  interest  in  it  than  I 
do  in  anything  else  besides  my  own  family.  I  take  four  or  five 
agricultural  papers  that  I  get  through  mv  work  here.  I  spend  two 
hours  on  an  average  every  night  gleaning  those  papers  for  new 
ideas  in  farming,  and  I  try  to  adopt  all  that  I  think  are  worth  any¬ 
thing. 

Q.  Would  it  be  possible  for  you  to  raise  wheat  on  that  farm  to 
make  flour  economically?  A.  No,  not  as  an  economical  proposition. 
You  can  raise  more  of  something  else. 

Q.  As  an  ecnomical  proposition?  A.  No,  not  in  my  judgment. 
It  has  been  tried,  and  in  this  section  here  it  is  not  a  profitable  crop. 

Mr.  Bates — Do  you  use  any  commercial  fertilizers?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
We  use  a  small  quantity.  We  have  been  using  about  six  hundred 
dollars’  worth  of  commercial  fertilizer  each  year. 

Q.  Do  you  get  any  manure  from  the  cows  that  you  use  on  the 
farm?  A.  Yes,  sir,  we  get  thousands  of  loads  of  that.  We  are 
hauling  all  winter  from  those  cattle. 

O.  What  do  you  feed  your  hogs  on  ?  A.  Almost  entirely  on  the 
swill  from  the  institution  here. 


312 


Mr.  Harrison — As  I  understand  it,  you  are  farming  on  the  inten¬ 
sive  system?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  this  fertilizer  that  you  get  from  your  cows  is  continually 
enriching  the  land?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  leaving  out  such  crops  as  cotton  and  wheat,  particu¬ 
larly  cotton,  to  a  certain  extent  just  on  that  basis?  A.  Yes,  partly 
so,  outside  of  everything  else.  We  could  not  make  sufficient  on 
the  amount  of  land  we  have  got  here  to  plant  all  those  things. 
In  the  crops  that  we  are  planting  we  have  selected  the  most  profita¬ 
ble  ones  to  us,  and  tend  the  land  as  best  we  can  so  as  to  supply  the 
institution. 

Q.  In  that  connection,  with  a  wider  area,  with  more  farming 
lands,  say,  one  acre  per  patient,  would  it  not  be  possible  to  carry  on 
the  institution  with  much  more  economy  than  it  is  done  now,  in 
your  judgment?  A.  Well,  if  you  get  the  right  kind,  yes;  if  the 
wrong  kind,  no, 

Q.  Don't  you  think  if  you  improve  this  land  out  here  that  way 
you  can  improve  a  larger  one?  A.  Yes,  with  the  same  means.  If 
we  get  a  larger  area,  we  will  have  to  cut  off  the  force  here. 

Q.  By  raising  ensilage,  peas,  corn,  etc.,  that  land  would  continue 
to  grow  better  and  more  valuable  to  the  institution,  would  it  not? 
A.  Yes,  if  we  had  more  land  we  would  have  to  resort  to  more  legum¬ 
inous  crops  than  we  do.  As  it  is  now,  we  get  a  plenty  of  humus 
from  the  stable  manure,  and  it  is  not  necessary  for  us  to  do  so. 

Q.  To  get  at  this  thing  from  another  point  of  view,  the  popula¬ 
tion  at  this  time  is  fifteen  hundred  people.  How  much  land  would 
you  think  you  must  have — fifteen  hundred  acres?  Would  you  think 
that  would  be  sufficient?  I  mean  average  South  Carolina  lands. 
A.  Yes,  it  would  be  better,  provided  you  could  get  improved  lands, 
but  if  you  improve  poor  lands,  you  may  be  in  a  worse  fix  than  now. 

Q.  Taking  an  average?  A.  Yes,  more  lands  would  be  an 
advantage. 

Q.  Would  it  not  be  in  your  judgrrfent  economical  and  profitable 
to  the  institution  and  the  taxpayers  of  South  Carolina  to  have  at 
least  fifteen  hundred  acres  connected  with  an  institution  of  this 
size?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  think  so.  I  am  satisfied,  because  we  could 
raise  more  bacon  and  things  of  that  kind  than  we  do  now. 

Q.  With  the  prospect  of  further  enlargement?  A.  Yes,  sir.  we 
would  need  that  much  at  least. 

0.  In  that  matter  of  bacon.  You  stated  that  you  killed  most  of  it 
in  the  fall  of  the  year.  If  you  had  here  a  refrigerating  plant,  an 


3 13 


ice  plant  in  which  you  would  have  brine  pipes,  wrould  it  not  be 
possible  for  you  to  kill  meat  at  any  season?  A.  Yes,  sir,  and  the 
refrigerating  plant  would  pay  for  itself  in  the  meat  we  would  save 
alone,  outside  of  any  other  consideration. 

Q.  About  what  does  the  institution  expend  for  ice  a  year?  A. 
They  spent  last  year  $1,532.00. 

0:  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  cost  of  producing  ice  with 
the  most  modern  machinery?  A.  I  have  been  told  that  it  can  be 
produced  at  ten  cents  a  hundred.  This  information  is  about  six  or 
eight  years  old  though. 

Q.  There  is  a  machine  built  in  Charlotte  that  guarantees  a  pro¬ 
duction  for  one  dollar  per  ton.  Suppose  it  guaranteed  the  produc¬ 
tion  of  ice  at  one  dollar  per  ton,  how  much  would  it  cost  you  to 
install  such  an  ice  and  refrigerating  plant  here?  A.  I  am  sorry  I 
can’t  give  that  information.  I  am  not  posted.  I  know-  we  thought 
a  plant  that  would  make  enough  ice  for  our  institution  would  cost 
eight  or  ten  thousand  dollars.  That  was  some  several  years  ago, 
six  or  seven  years  ago. 

Q.  That  class  of  machinery  has  been  very  much  reduced  in  price 
since  then?  A.  Yes,  sir,  not  only  that,  but  it  is  very  much  improved 
in  efficiency. 

Q.  About  what  number  of  tons  per  day  would  it  take  to  run  you. 
I  am  not  speaking  of  ice  you  would  have  to  use  in  the  refrigerating 
plant,  because  if  you  had  an  ice  plant  that  would  not  be  necessary. 
What  do  you  use  here  just  as  you  stand — -simply  the  ice  necessary 
to  use  on  the  outside  for  outside  purposes?  A.  It  is  like  other 
•things.  You  could  use  a  whole  lot,  and  then  you  need  not.  I  believe 
eight  or  ten  tons  could  be  economically  used  here  now. 

O.  Per  day?  A.  Yes,  sir,  a  day. 

Q.  Suppose  you  would  eliminate  the  milk  spoiling  and  the  meat 
spoiling?  A.  That  would  reduce  it.  That  would  cut  it  in  half  at 
least,  sir. 

0.  Would  a  pound  per  patient,  or  say  two  pounds  per  patient 
a  day,  would  that  be  sufficient,  that  much  for  the  patients  themselves  ? 
A.  That  would  be  ample. 

0.  Then,  with  a  refrigerating  apparatus,  a  two-ton  machine  would 
really  do  the  work?  A.  Providing  we  had  a  refrigerating  apparatus 
for  other  things,  of  course. 

Q.  What  I  am  trying  to  get  out  is  this.  The  cost  of  a  building 
containing  refrigerating  rooms  and  storage  rooms  necessary  for 
this  ice  production,  and  the  two-ton  machine  say,  and  storage 


3*4 


rooms  for  the  milk,  meats,  etc.,  in  connection  with  it,  which,  of 
course,  would  be  an  economy — that  same  machine  would  make  ice 
for  both?  A.  That  would  require  a  larger  machine. 

Q.  It  would  require  a  larger  compresser.  That  woould  be  the 
only  thing?  A.  It  would  require  additional  steam,  etc. 

Q.  I  am  speaking  independently  of  the  boiler  plant,  the  compresser 
and  the  apparatus.  Wouldn't  it  be  possible  under  the  present  prices 
to  put  in  such  a  machine  as  large  as  that  for  six  thousand  dollars? 
A.  I  should  think  so. 

Q.  Don't  you  think  it  would  be  an  economy  ?  A.  I  presume  so  from 
what  I  learn  of  the  few  companies  that  are  making  ice.  I  am  not 
familiar  with  that  at  all. 

Q.  At  the  present  rate  of  buying  ice  it  would  mean  an  income  of 
fifteen  hundred  dollars  a  year  on  a  six  thousand  dollar  investment? 
A.  Well,  it  would  be  more  than  that  for  the  reason  that  we  some¬ 
times  lose  considerable  meat  here  by  spoiling,  and  if  we  had  the 
appliances  for  saving  this  meat,  that  would  add  to  the  profits  of  the 
machinery,  of  course.  Not  only  that,  if  we  had  a  plant  of  sufficient 
size,  we  could  save  vegetables,  turnips,  etc.,  indefinitely,  and  that 
would  be  a  considerable  item  in  an  institution  the  size  of  this. 

Q.  The  lack  of  an  ice  plant  is  an  economical  loss  to  the  taxpayers? 
A.  I  think  it  is  a  positive  necessity  to  this  institution,  sir. 

Mr.  Carey — You  have  the  farm  and  the  dairy  under  you?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  the  extent  of  your  authority?  A.  I  don't  know  just 
what  the  extent  is. 

Q.  It  covers  those?  A.  It  covers  those  all  right. 

Q.  Those  are  absolutely  under  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  feel  yourself  responsible  for  both  of  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  the  farm  making  when  you  first  took  charge  of 
it  compared  with  now  ?  A.  It  made  650  bushels  of  corn  then ; 
7,500  now.  I  get  this  from  my  annual  report.  This  is  the  authority 
I  am  going  by.  The  value  of  the  bacon  then  was  $521.40;  this  year 
$1,644.80;  last  year  $2,492.90. 

Q.  You  are  giving  the  respective  yields  before  you  took  charge 
and  now?  A.  Yes,  sir.  The  value  of  the  milk  before  I  took  charge 
was  $4,202.72;  last  year  it  was  $18,233.50. 

Q.  The  value  of  vegetables?  A.  It  was  $2,994.00;  last  year 
$19,405.93. 

0.  That  was  the  difference  between  1891  and  1908?  A.  1890  and 


3i5 


1908.  You  see  the  reports  were  printed.  The  printed  reports  were 
for  two  years  originally — for  1890-91,  etc. 

Q.  Who  had  charge  of  it  before  you  ?  A.  Mr.  Green,  I  think, 
had  charge  of  it,  but  I  don't  think  he  gave  it  his  attention  much  at 
all.  He  was  a  very  old  man,  from  what  I  understand. 

Q.  You  cultivate  more  land?  A.  A  good  deal  more.  We  have 
a  good  deal  more  land  than  he  had. 

Q.  In  1891  you  got  the  Wallace  land?  A.  O,  yes,  sir,  the  farm¬ 
ing  operations  have  been  very  much  enlarged  since  then. 

Q.  Do  you  have  to  buy  much  corn,  meal,  and  produce  generally? 
A.  We  buy  very  little.  We  buy  Irish  potatoes.  1  am  bound  to  tell 
you  that  I  am  a  failure  on  Irish  potatoes  since  I  have  been  in  Colum¬ 
bia.  I  succeeded  very  nicely  on  my  farm  near  Augusta,  but  since 
I  have  moved  to  Columbia  I  have  lost  the  art. 

Q.  What  about  the  soil?  A.  Partly  the  soil  and  partly  the  bugs, 
and  it  may  be  partly  the  management.  I  don't  know  just  what  it  is. 
I  have  done  the  best  I  can,  but  this  thing  of  planting  ten  bushels  and 
getting  from  seventy-five  to  a  hundred  bushels  is  not  a  paying 
proposition. 

Q.  It  is  cheaper  to  buy  them?  A.  And  then  it  is  a  fight  against 
the  bugs  from  the  time  they  come  up.  We  had  to  keep  a  squad 
of  patients  in  there.  We  could  not  use  Paris  Green  as  I  could  out¬ 
side.  If  I  had,  possibly  I  might  have  made  considerably  more 
potatoes,  but  we  had  to  eliminate  that  on  account  of  the  patients. 

Q.  How  about  cabbage  ?  Do  you  buy  any  of  them  ?  A.  Buy 
very  little.  I  suppose  for  this  year  we  have  bought  cabbage  enough 
to  run  us  one  month. 

Q.  Corn  and  meal,  do  you  buy  that?  A.  Just  a  little  when  the 
mill  breaks  down,  or  something  like  that.  Then  we  buy  a  sack  or 
two  until  it  is  repaired. 

Q.  You  make  corn  enough  to  run  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  more  than  enough  corn  to  carry  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
We  have  sold  several  hundred  bushels  of  seed  corn.  I  give  in  the 
aggregate  something  like  a  hundred  bushels  for  free  distribution. 

Q.  Do  you  buy  much  meat?  A.  Yes,  sir,  considerable.  Our 
consumption  of  bacon  amounts  to  from  two  to  three  thousand 
pounds  a  week.  We  have  to  buy  quite  a  lot  of  bacon. 

Q.  Your  hog  farm  cannot  furnish  enough  for  that?  A.  No,  sir, 
nothing  like  that. 

Q.  How  do  you  feed  your  cattle?  A.  The  cattle  are  fed  on 
ensilage,  cotton  seed  meal  and  bran. 


316 


0.  Do  you  make  that  here?  A.  We  do  not  make  the  cotton  seed 
meal  and  the  bran.  We  make  the  ensilage.  We  put  up  fifteen 
hundred  tons  of  ensilage  last  fall. 

Q.  Enough  to  last  you?  A.  Yes,  sir,  through  the  year.  We  have 
been  carrying  over  two  or  three  hundred  tons  at  the  end  of  the  year. 
We  have  a  plenty  of  this  all  the  summer.  It  would  be  better  if  we 
had  pasturage,  but  we  have  no  pasturage  here  at  all.  The  cows 
are  turned  out  for  a  little  exercise,  and  then  turned  back. 

0.  Your  cows  are  in  fine  fix?  A.  In  good  condition.  Outside  of 
two  or  three  they  are  fat  enough  for  beef,  I  think. 

Q.  How  many  are  you  milking  now?  A.  About  130. 

Q.  Who  is  the  dairyman  that  you  have  out  there  in  charge  of 
that  dairy?  A.  We  have  no  practical  man. 

Q.  Is  there  a  white  man?  A.  One  that  overlooks  and  does  the 
weighing,  and  sees  that  the  men  get  in  on  time. 

0.  Who  is  he?  A.  Hedgepath. 

O.  Who  selects  the  patients  ?  A.  They  are  selected  in  the  wards. 
I  suppose  Dr.  Griffin  does  it. 

O.  Where  do  they  come  from?  A.  The  colored  men’s  depart¬ 
ment. 

Q.  You  have  seen  enough  to  know  whether  they  are  fit  for  that 
character  of  work  or  not — those  that  do  the  work?  A.  So  far  as 
I  am  concerned,  I  would  rather  have  patients  milk  for  me,  for  I  know 
they  bathe  occasionally,  and  that  is  is  more  than  you  can  get  from  an 
outsider.  Of  course,  it  is  like  all  other  things,  there  is  some  preju¬ 
dice  about  it. 

Q.  It  is  charged  here  that  those  patients  are  dirty  and  filthy? 
A.  They  are  not  as  much  so  as  the  hired  men  we  had  here,  because 
I  know  when  they  go  and  come.  They  haven’t  the  same  odor  those 
other  men  had,  nothing  like  it. 

0.  Do  you  know  whether  the  rule  is  carried  out  about  bathing 
and  bathing  the  cow’s  udders?  A.  I  am  told  that  it  is  done  and  the 
appliances  are  there.  I  am  not  certain.  I  have  not  the  time  to 
devote  to  these  details. 

Q.  Is  this  a  white  man  that  has  charge  of  the  milking?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  he  has  nothing  else  in  the  world  to  do. 

Q.  Is  he  here  now?  A.  At  the  farm,  yes,  sir.  He  weighs  the 
milk  and  sends  it  over  here,  and  sends  me  a  report  of  the  weight 
once  a  month,  and  I  make  monthly  reports  to  the  Board  of  Regents. 

Q.  How  do  you  make  that — by  weight?  A.  All  weighed. 


317 


Q.  And  sent  to  you  ?  A.  Once  a  month,  at  the  end  of  each  month 
we  make  a  report  to  the  board. 

Q.  What  is  your  method  of  dealing-  with  the  institution?  What¬ 
ever  you  turn  over  to  the  institution,  you  charge  to  the  institution? 
A.  Whatever  it  gets  we  charge  up  at  wholesale  rates. 

Q.  And  you  make  a  report  of  that?  A.  Make  a  report  of  that 

once  a  month. 

Q.  Who  do  you  make  the  report  to?  A.  To  the  Board  of  Regents. 

Q.  And  it  is  submitted  to  them  at  their  monthly  meetings,  is  it? 
A.  And  the  annual  report  is  made  up  from  those  monthly  reports. 

Q.  You  keep  it  just  like  a  farmer  selling  to  the  institution,  do  you 
not?  A.  Just  exactly,  and  make  a  note  of  whatever  we  get  from 
the  institution,  and  charge  ourselves  with  it. 

Q.  You  keep  an  account  of  receipts  from  the  institution  and  of 
what  you  furnish  to  the  institution,  and  in  that  way  you  know  what 
the  farm  is  paying?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  From  your  experience  in  the  management  of  that  farm  and 
dairy,  what,  in  your  judgment,  is  it  worth  to  the  institution?  I 
don’t  mean  in  dollars  and  cents.  A.  It  is  absolutely  necessary,  in  my 
opinion. 

Q.  Does  it  serve  a  purpose  nothing  else  would  serve?  A.  It  cer¬ 
tainly  does.  It  would  be  impossible  for  us  to  get  fresh  vegetables 
from  the  Columbia  market,  and  it  would  be  impossible  to  get  any¬ 
thing  like  the  quantity  of  milk  that  we  get  from  this  dairy. 

Q.  And  you  would  have  to  buy  it?  A.  Yes,  sir;  besides  it  is  sub¬ 
ject  to  all  the  fluctuations  of  the  market. 

Q.  You  use  the  milk  instead  of  making  butter?  A.  Use  sweet 
milk  entirely.  We  do  not  convert  any  of  it  into  butter. 

O.  How  do  you  get  your  beef?  A.  We  buy  them  and  put  them 
over  there  and  fatten  them,  and  they  are  killed  there  under  our 
supervision. 

Q.  Do  you  get  a  good  quality  of  beef?  A.  We  have  an  oppor¬ 
tunity  now  of  inspecting  the  beeves  that  we  kill,  and  if  they  are 
not  all  right  we  condemn  them.  When  your  Commission  here  was 
in  session  my  son  called  me  to  the  door.  I  went  there  and  he  stated 
to  me  that  the  butcher  wanted  to  see  me,  and  I  went  outside,  and 
he  stated  to  me  that  I  had  told  him  to  report  to  me  any  time  that 
he  found  that  any  beef  was  wrong  at  all.  Now,  I  have  killed  one 
of  the  fattest  beeves  that  I  have  ever  seen  and  found  that  it  had 
tuberculosis.  He  said  he  thought  it  was  all  right,  but  I  had  told 
him  to  report  it,  and  I  told  him  to  take  it  and  bury  it.  If  we  had 


3iS 


put  that  beef  on  the  market  here  in  my  opinion  there  would  not 
have  been  any  question  about  it  at  all.  It  would  have  been  brought 
in  here  and  used. 

Q.  Who  makes  the  inspection?  A.  The  man  that  butchers  the 
beef.  We  get  the  best  man  that  we  can  find. 

0.  You  kill  your  own  beeves?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Turn  them  over  to  your  butcher  and  he  kills  them  for  you? 
A.  One  of  the  employees  here  does  the  butchering,  and  he  is  paid 
extra  for  butchering. 

0.  Is  he  the  man  that  makes  this  inspection?  A.  Yes,  sir;  he  is 
a  very  reliable  colored  man,  a  man  with  some  little  education. 

Q.  And  you  fatten  those  cows  ?  Do  you  fatten  them  on  ensilage  ? 
A.  No,  that  is  for  the  milkers. 

0.  On  what?  A.  Stover  and  cotton  seed  meal. 

Q.  How  do  you  get  that?  A.  That  is  the  corn  stalks,  shucks, 
etc.,  that  is  run  through  the  shucking  and  shredding  machine.  It 
is  then  packed  into  bales.  It  is  the  entire  corn  stalk,  fodder  and 
everything.  We  don’t  strip  fodder  here  at  all. 

O.  Is  it  good  for  the  purpose?  A.  Nothing  better.  It  is,  I  think, 
worth  four  or  five  times  what  cotton  seed  hulls  are.  Those  sort  of 
things  are  used  mostly  as  fillers. 

Q.  What  do  you  do  with  the  calves  ?  A.  They  are  kept  until  they 
are  five  or  six  weeks  old  and  are  converted  into  veal  for  the  insti¬ 
tution. 

Mr.  Harrison — Tell  the  Commission  why  it  was  you  adopted  the 
plan  of  killing  your  own  beeves?  Explain  that  to  the  Commission. 
A.  We  adopted  it  for  the  reason  that  we  found  that  we  were  being 
imposed  upon,  and  we  could  not  help  ourselves  very  well.  We  adver¬ 
tised  for  the  best  beef  and  gave  out  contracts  for  the  best  beef  we 
could  procure  on  this  market,  and  when  we  would  give  out  the 
contracts  we  would  have  trouble  constantly  in  getting  the  better 
quality  of  beef.  It  was  reported  to  me,  and  we  had  constant  trouble 
with  regard  to  condemning  it.  We  did  not  quit  it,  and  could  not  quit 
it,  and  the  asylum  was  a  sort  of  clearing  house.  There  is  no 
question  of  it  at  all.  If  there  was  a  crippled  cow  that  no  other 
butcher  would  have  we  got  it. 

O.  Your  lands  over  there  have  been  brought  up  and  improved 
much  within  the  last  ten  or  twelve  years?  A.  Improved  very  much. 
The  property  that  we  bought  from  the  Wallace  estate  produced 
under  good  management  the  first  year  about  ten  bushels  of  corn, 


but  since  it  has  made  from  forty  to  fifty  and  up  to  seventy  and 
seventy-five. 

Q.  Your  idea  is  that  as  long  as  this  institution  runs  this  farm 
ought  to  be  kept  and  enlarged  if  possible?  A.  I  certainly  think  so. 

Q.  How  about  the  chances  of  enlargement?  Are  there  any  lands 
around  here?  A.  No,  sir,  unless  you  run  out  the  land  promoters. 

Q.  For  farming  purposes  it  would  not  be  a  practicable  proposi¬ 
tion  to  buy  lands  around  here,  would  it,  close  around  Columbia? 
A.  No,  I  suppose  not.  I  know  there  was  a  little  piece  of  land  that 
was  offered  here,  and  they  wanted  fifteen  hundred  dollars  an  acre. 
Dr.  Babcock  says  it  is  two  thousand  now.  If  he  had  bought  it  two 
years  ago  he  could  have  gotten  it  at  fifteen  hundred. 

Q.  Most  of  the  things  you  need,  you  make  sufficient  of  them  here, 
meal,  vegetables — you  are  making  nearly  all  you  use  now  on  the 
farm?  A.  Yes,  sir,  for  our  own  consumption. 

Q.  Your  hogs,  you  feed  them  from  the —  A.  Swill,  mostly. 
Every  little  while  we  have  to  give  them  a  change  and  feed  them  a 
little. 

Q.  How  many  hogs  have  you  now?  A.  Something  like  four 
hundred,  that  is,  little  and  big. 

Q.  Have  you  a  man  in  charge  of  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  his  name?  A.  We  have  three  or  four.  They  are  not 
in  charge  of  a  white  man,  only  a  negro. 

Q.  How  about  the  use  of  those  patients  to  labor  on  the  farm? 
Do  you  use  much  of  it,  many  on  the  farm?  A.  We  have  two  squads 
there  most  all  the  summer.  We  don't  have  very  many  in  the  winter, 
but  in  the  summer  we  have  one  colored  squad  and  one  white  squad 
usually. 

Q.  How  many  in  a  squad?  A.  From  a  dozen  to  fifteen. 

Q.  The  better  class  of  patients?  A.  No,  just  such  men  as  will 
consent  to  go  out  there,  that  type  of  men. 

Q.  They  are  not  forced?  A.  No,  sir,  not  at  all. 

O.  They  prefer  to  do  that?  A.  There  are  some  of  the  patients 
that  prefer  to  go  out.  If  they  want  to  work,  they  do  so;  if  not,  they 
do  not. 

Q.  Is  that  the  rule,  they  work  when  they  want  to  and  quit  when 
they  want  to?  A.  Yes,  sir,  no  compulsion  at  all. 

Q.  No  force?  A.  None  at  all.  The  doctor  encourages  them  by 
giving  them  a  little  extra  food,  and  extra  tobacco  and  things  like 
that,  and  extra  clothing. 


320 


Q.  That  is  true  of  both  white  and  black?  A.  I  assume  the 
responsibility  to  do  that  myself. 

Q.  Both  white  and  black?  A.  Both  white  and  black,  yes,  sir. 
They  are  treated  exactly  alike,  from  twelve  to  fifteen  each. 

Q.  Those  things  that  are  served  in  this  institution,  vegetables, 
corn,  grits,  and  all  those  things,  are  they  as  good  as  you  can  buy 
in  town  ?  A.  They  are  better  than  you  can  buy  in  town.  This  meal 
that  you  are  talking  so  much  about,  I  would  be  glad  to  buy  meal 
up  town  and  swap  it  for  this. 

Q.  This  grits  and  meal?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  would  be  delighted  to  buy 
it  down  town  and  swap  it  here.  I  have  been  a  little  afraid  to  do  it 
because  somebody  would  criticise  me. 

Q.  It  is  just  as  good  as  you  can  get  on  the  market?  A.  Just 
as  good,  and  it  is  on  account  of  the  lack  of  preparation  which  is  not 
so  good  for  the  reason  that  there  are  so  many  to  be  served  that  it 
is  impossible  to  prepare  those  vegetables  and  things  as  they  are 
prepared  in  most  families,  and  that  is  the  reason  of  the  complaint 
about  them. 

Q.  It  is  no  fault  of  the  material?  A.  None  whatever. 

Q.  Do  you  have  anything  to  do  with  the  kitchen?  A.  I  go  in 
there,  I  suspect,  oftener  than  most  anybody  else  does. 

Q.  What  is  your  judgment  about  the  way  things  are  run  in  there? 
A.  My  judgment  is  this,  that  the  kitchen  has  a  capacity  for  prepar¬ 
ing  meals  for  about  three  hundred  patients,  and  it  is  preparing  meals 
for  from  one  thousand  to  twelve  hundred  patients  for  the  last  several 
years. 

Q.  That  is  the  main  kitchen?  A.  Yes,  sir.  The  United  States 
navy  employs  one  cook  to  every  fifty  enlisted  men.  Each  cook  in 
this  kitchen  here  has  been  preparing  food  for  about  two  hundred 
patients  and  employees  together. 

0.  Do  you  know  this  man  Earle?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

.  Q.  Is  he  a  pretty  capable  man  ?  A.  I  regard  him  so.  I  don’t  say 
he  is  a  first-class  cook,  or  anything  of  that  sort,  but  I  recommended 
him  to  Dr.  Babcock,  and  I  would  not  hesitate  to  recommend  him  to 
you  or  anybody  else. 

Q.  Does  he  cook  himself  or  oversee  it?  A.  He  just  overlooks 
it.  The  cooks  themselves  are  under  him.  He  just  overlooks  it. 

Q.  The  hired  cooks  in  there,  how  are  they?  A.  There  are  some 
good,  some  bad  and  some  indifferent.  It  is  impossible  to  keep  good 
cooks  all  the  time  at  the  wages  we  pay. 


32 1 


Q.  The  patients  that  work  in  there,  what  class  of  patients  are 
they  ?  A.  About  as  good  as  we  have  got.  They  are  usually  selected 
from  the  colored  men.  I  think  two  white  men  work  in  there  now. 

Q.  Your  idea  is  that  the  kitchen  ought  to  be  enlarged  or  a  new  one 
built?  A.  I  certainly  think  so. 

Q.  What  part  of  the  building  would  you  put  it  in  ?  A.  I  don’t 
know. 

Q.  If  it  remains  where  it  is —  A.  There  are  two  propositions  that 
I  would  make  along  that  line. 

Q.  What  are  they?  A.  One  proposition  is  that  I  would  buy 
another  large  range  and  put  it  at  the  new  building  down  there,  and 
I  would  attempt  to  cook  for  all  the  white  women  there.  Let  all  the 
white  women  from  this  kitchen  aid  that  cook  at  the  new  building. 
I  would  then  buy  another  range,  and  would  put  it  into  the  Parker 
building,  and  would  do  all  the  cooking  for  the  colored  men  there, 
and  that  would  leave  the  white  men  and  the  outside  employees 
for  the  center  building  kitchen.  That  is  one  proposition. 

Q.  What  is  the  other  proposition  ?  A.  The  other  proposition, 
and  a  better  one,  is  to  convert  the  present  store  room  into  a  kitchen. 
It  is  a  good  deal  larger  than  the  kitchen  we  have  over  here,  and  it 
is  better  adapted  in  a  good  many  ways.  By  coverting  that  into  a 
kitchen  we  could  build  a  store  room  elsewhere,  and  I  think  that 
would  be  sufficient.  While  you  are  along  that  line,  I  am  absolutely 
opposed  to  steam  cooking.  When  you  come  to  quality,  it  is  impossi¬ 
ble  always  to  cook  your  meals  satisfactorily  with  steam.  You  can 
cook  more  economically,  and  perhaps  more  thoroughly,  but  you 
can’t  get  the  quality  out  of  steam  cooking. 

Q.  That  is  the  cooking  system  here?  A.  It  is  in  the  center 
building,  but  nowhere  else.  That  is  the  reason  that  there  is  so 
much  more  dissatisfaction  at  the  center  building  than  anywhere 
else.  The  others  all  use  ranges  for  their  cooking. 

Q.  Is  the  food  better  prepared  in  the  others?  A.  Decidedly 
better. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  the  trouble  in  the  kitchen  is?  You  have 
stated  the  overcrowding  of  the  cooks,  in  fact,  that  it  was  not  big 
enough.  What  have  you  got  to  say  about  the  stuff  actually  cooked, 
the  actual  preparation  ?  A.  It  could  not  be  remedied  with  the  means 
at  hand.  It  is  impossible  to  do  it. 

Q.  Is  it  a  question  of  more  money?  A.  I  suppose  that  would 
be  the  solution  of  the  question  in  the  end.  In  the  first  place,  we  need 


21— A. 


322 


more  cooks,  and  if  we  got  more  cooks  we  haven't  room  enough  for 
them.  It  is  too  much  crowded  and  cramped  as  it  is. 

Q.  Is  there  any  reason  why  they  cannot  cook  rice  and  hominy 
as  it  is?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Why?  A.  Because  they  cook  by  steam. 

O.  You  think  that  accounts  for  the  condition  of  the  rice  and 
hominy?  A.  I  don’t  think  that  there  is  any  question  that  at  the 
present  time  it  is  responsible  for  a  large  portion  of  it. 

Mr.  Hardin — That  is  largely  due  to  the  large  quantities  that  are 
cooked?  A.  Large  quantities? 

Q.  You  can't  code  a  large  quantity  of  hominy  in  a  large  oven  like 
you  could  in  a  private  family?  A.  You  can’t  do  the  stirring. 

Mr.  Carey — What  is  the  trouble  with  the  baker’s  bread,  Mr. 
Bunch?  A.  I  don’t  think  there  is  much  trouble  with  that.  I  think 
it  will  compare  very  favorably  with  what  you  buy  on  the  market 
here.  Occasionally  it  is  off,  but  it  is  not  as  a  general  thing. 

Q.  As  a  general  thing  you  regard  that  as  good?  A.  As  a  general 
rule  as  good  as  we  can  get  in  Columbia. 

Q.  Would  it  pay  to  get  a  kneading  machine  for  that  purpose?  It 
is  kneaded  with  the  hands  here?  A.  Yes,  sir,  altogether. 

Q.  When  it  comes  to  the  dining  room  part  of  it,  do  you  have 
anything  to  do  with  that?  A.  I  believe  it  was  proved  by  a  witness 
here  the  other  day  that  I  did  not  have  anything  to  do  with  it,  but 
inasmuch  as  you  ask  the  question,  I  will  say  that  I  go  in  there  two 
or  three  times  a  week  and  oftener. 

Q.  Having  been  here  a  good  long  while  your  suggestions  ought 
to  be  worth  something?  A.  The  dining  room  is  as  good  as  it  was 
when  I  came  here,  conducted  on  the  same  plans  exactly  for  the 
class  of  patients  that  eat  there.  I  don’t  see  how  you  could  improve 
it  very  much. 

Q.  How  is  the  food  served  out?  A.  Served  out  by  the  patients, 
but  these  patients  are  selected  from  the  Parker  building. 

O.  Served  warm  or  cold?  A.  Usually  served  warm,  nearly  always 
warm.  I  don’t  know  that  I  ever  saw  it  cold  except  at  supper.  We 
never  have  warm  suppers,  you  know. 

O.  Do  you  know  anything  about  these  complaints  of  cruelty  by 
the  nurses  in  there?  Have  you  ever  seen  any  of  that  going  on?  A. 
I  have  learned  more  since  I  have  been  in  your  committee  room  than 
I  ever  knew  before. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  any  nurses  at  it  ?  A.  None  whatever. 

O.  What  is  the  custom  of  Dr.  Babcock  in  regard  to  those  matters  ? 


323 


A.  He  has  done  the  best  he  could.  I  have  gone  to  him  and  he  has 
always  co-operated  with  me.  We  have  gone  together  repeatedly. 
He  has  come  to  me  and  I  to  him.  At  least  he  sent  for  me,  and  I 
went. 

Q.  Did  he  ever  show  any  unwillingness?  A.  No,  sir.  On  the 
other  hand,  he  has  shown  quite  an  anxiety  to  aid  in  anything  towards 
the  betterment  of  the  affairs  down  there  every  time  I  went  to  him  at 
all.  Every  time  he  sent  for  me  we  went  together. 

Q.  And  you  and  the  doctor  co-operated  in  the  farm  department? 
A.  Thoroughly. 

Q.  Any  friction?  A.  The  doctor  lets  me  have  entire  control  of 
the  farm. 

0.  You  are  lord  of  all  you  survey  on  the  farm?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  a  practical  farmer  yourself?  A.  Born  on  it  and 
raised  on  it.  I  know  more  about  that  than  anything  else. 

Q.  You  have  been  here  since  when?  A.  Since  March,  1891. 

Q.  Your  judgment  is  that  the  farm  and  its  operation  is  a  suc¬ 
cess  and  not  a  failure,  is  that  right?  A.  That  is  not  my  judgment. 
That  is  a  truth.  There  is  no  question  of  that  at  all. 

Q.  It  is  a  fact?  A.  Yes,  sir,  it  is  a  fact.  There  is  no  doubt  about 
that  at  all. 

Mr.  Harrison — In  case  the  kitchen  was  moved  as  you  suggested 
into  your  store  room,  you  would  have  to  use  the  upper  part  of  that 
store  room  for  some  other  purpose  on  account  of  the  steam? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  it  could  be  used  as  an  amusement  hall  or  something  of 
that  sort. 

Q.  In  case  that  change  was  made  and  you  constructed  this  house 
which  you  think  could  be  done  for,  say,  six  thousand  dollars,  that 
would  give  you  both  a  store  house  and  an  ice  house  together?  A. 
I  don’t  know  that  a  compound  building  could  be  erected  for  that 
money,  and,  really,  it  is  just  a  matter  of  judgment  on  my  part, 
remember. 

Q.  Would  not  that  allow  a  relief  of  Tie  congested  condition  in 
the  front  part  of  this  building?  A.  No  question  about  that. 

Q.  When  that  is  done,  could  not  you  take  your  offices  and  shove 
them  back  ?  A.  Into  the  chapel  ? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  O,  yes,  it  could  be  done. 

0.  It  would  be  impossible  now  on  account  of  the  steam  from  the 
engine?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  This  part  of  the  building  could  be  used  for  reception,  couldn’t 
it?  A.  Receiving  and  reception  rooms,  or  anything  else  you  choose 


324 


to  use  it  for.  Understand.  I  am  saying  this  without  consultation 
with  the  Board  of  Regents,  the  Superintendent,  or  anybody  else. 

Q.  To  follow  out  that  thought  just  a  little  bit — in  your  office 
arrangements  here,  is  not  the  present  congested  condition  of  your 
offices  here;  does  it,  or  does  it  not,  interfere  with  your  work?  A. 
It  reaches  all  departments  of  the  institution.  There  is  no  doubt 
about  that. 

Q.  Are  visitors  liable  to  come  in  on  you  ?  A.  O.  yes,  they  do. 

Q.  Interrupt  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  That  then  would  reduce  your  efficiency  from  that  point  of 
view  ?  A.  It  would  add  very  much  to  my  work,  and  to  the  efficiency 
of  the  office  force. 

Q.  I  am  trying  to  get  at  it  from  an  economical  standpoint.  In 
case  that  was  done,  the  chapel  could  be  used,  the  present  chapel  and 
amusement  hall  could  be  used  as  a  chapel?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  chapel  is  really  unnecessary?  A.  I  have  always 
thought  it.  That  hall  is  vacant  nine-tenths  of  the  time,  and  the 
preaching  and  the  amusements  are  not  going  on  at  one  and  the 
same  time,  and  for  that  reason  it  could  very  well  be  used  for  the 
same  purpose. 

0.  Does  not  the  present  location  of  the  kitchen  result  in  odors 
coming  from  the  hall  throughout  that  part  of  the  institution?  A. 
Odors  where  they  are  cooking  down  stairs  permeate  the  whole  build¬ 
ing.  even  to  our  offices  at  the  front. 

Mr.  Harrison — That  chapel  is  used  two  or  three  times  a  week? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  just  about. 

Q.  Would  not  the  building  of  this  ice  plant  and  storage  house 
that  we  decided  would  be  a  great  economical  gain  to  the  institution 
and  to  the  taxpayer — it  would  not  be  a  very  expensive  proposition 
to  move  that  kitchen,  would  it?  A.  No. 

Q.  It  would  be  a  very  inexpensive  proposition,  also,  to  divide  that 
chapel  and  put  these  offices  back  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then,  to  combine  the  whole  subject,  is  not  the  present  system 
that  is  used  there  from  the  standpoint  of  equipment  a  very  great 
economical  loss  to  the  institution  and  to  the  taxpayer,  in  your  judg¬ 
ment?  A.  It  certainly  is. 

Mr.  Carey — I  believe  you  do  all  the  buying?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  say 
all,  practically  all.  I  don’t  buy  the  drugs  and  things  of  that  kind 
in  the  medical  department. 

O.  The  supplies  ?  A.  I  buy  all  the  supplies. 

0.  What  quality  of  stuff  do  you  buy?  A.  I  buy  the  best  meats 


325 


that  I  can  get.  Take  the  hams,  for  instance.  I  would  pay  more  if  I 
bought  small  hams,  but  it  is  not  necessary  to  pay  more,  if  we  get  the 
same  quality,  and  at  from  two  to  three  cents  less  per  pound. 

Q.  What  kind  of  rice?  A.  It  is  called  South  Caolina  small  rice. 
It  is  small  rice.  They  have  it  small,  medium  and  large.  I  buy 
South  Carolina  small  rice. 

Q.  It  is  a  pretty  good  variety  of  rice?  A.  I  have  been  told  by 
planters  down  on  the  coast  that  they  use  that  grade  of  rice  for  their 
families,  but  I  do  not  know  this  to  be  a  fact.  It  is  as  good  a  grade, 
but  a  smaller  grade. 

Q.  How  about  the  prices?  A.  It  is  less  than  the  others. 

Q.  Broken  rice?  A.  We  sometimes  get  it  broken  a  little,  but 
whenever  we  can  we  get  what  is  called  South  Carolina  small  rice, 
small  grains,  of  course,  and  more  or  less  broken  grains  in  that  grade 
of  rice. 

0.  How  do  you  account  for  the  condition  of  the  cooked  rice  in 
that  kitchen?  Some  describe  it  as  blue  and  gluey,  and  such  as  that? 
A.  You  know  there  is  some  art  about  cooking  rice.  If  you  take  a 
lot  of  rice  and  put  it  in  a  pot  and  boil  it  like  you  were  going  to  make 
a  pot  of  glue,  you  get  glue  out  of  it.  I  suppose,  on  account  of  the 
rush,  it  has  not  had  the  attention  that  it  should  have  had.  I  don’t 
know  just  how  to  account  for  it.  I  could  not  cook  anything.  I  could 
not  cook  a  hoecake  to  save  my  life. 

Q.  Clothes.  Are  most  of  the  clothes  made  in  the  institution  ?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  By  whom?  A.  The  patients. 

O.  How  do  you  buy  the  material?  A.  Sometimes  one  place  and 
sometimes  another.  It  is  so  now  that  drummers  come  here.  The 
last  two  years  we  have  been  able  to  pick  up  the  most  of  these  things 
at  South  Carolina  mills.  Whenever  I  can  I  give  the  preference  to 
the  home  mills,  the  prices  being  equal. 

0.  Quality?  A.  Strong  but  not  fine. 

Q.  Comfortable  and  strong?  A.  Yes,  sir.  In  the  line  of  clothes 
we  have,  for  summer  wear,  been  fortunate  enough  t  o  lay  in 
a  supply  of  khaki  uniforms  from  the  United  States  Government  five 
or  six  years  ago,  and  we  have  still  enough  to  run  us  two  or  three 
years.  The  sizes  are  giving  us  trouble  now,  and  we  have  only  the 
small  sizes  left. 

O.  Do  you  buy  coal,  too?  A.  The  coal  purchases  are  usually  left 
to  the  Board  of  Regents,  and  they  direct,  when  they  don’t  buy  it 


326 


themselves,  they  direct  Dr.  Babcock  to  buy.  We  buy  at  the  lowest 
figure  always. 

O.  How  much  coal  does  it  take  to  run  you  ?  A.  About  a  thousand 
tons  of  anthracite  and  about  a  thousand  tons  of  bituminous. 

Q.  What  is  the  average  price?  A.  The  average  price  this  year? 
We  are  paying  $6.27  for  anthracite.  We  haven’t  loaded  ourselves 
with  bituminous,  but  I  suppose  it  will  cost  us  something  like  one 

dollar  at  the  mines,  $3.45,  that  is  the  freight — that  is  for  the - 

- coal.  If  we  buy  Tennessee,  it  is  cheaper,  but  it  is  not 

economy  to  do  so. 

Q.  Do  you  buy  in  the  summer  time?  A.  Always  buy  in  the 
spring. 

Q.  You  have  it  laid  in?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  facilities  for  getting  it  to  the  buildings,  have  you 
not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  don’t  have  to  haul  it?  A.  Not  at  all.  The  institution 
put  in  a  spur  track  about  eight  or  ten  years  ago. 

0.  That  is  on  its  own  land  ?  A.  It  is  owned  by  the  institution 
itself. 

Q.  How  often  does  the  Board  of  Regents  meet?  A.  Once  a 
month. 

Q.  How  long  do  they  usually  continue  in  session?  A.  That  is 
owing  to  the  amount  of  business  they  have  to  do.  They  are  usually 
in  session  from  four  to  five  hours. 

Q.  Do  they  divide  out  the  work  among  them  ?  A.  They  divide  it 
out  into  committees. 

Q.  Who  looks  after  your  department?  A.  Mr.  Glenn  and  Mr. 
Jones,  I  believe. 

Q.  Those  two?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Both  farmers?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  attention  do  they  give  to  it?  A.  They  come  out 
there  and  look  it  over  and  see  that  I  am  doing  my  duty.  They  do 
that  very  often. 

Q.  Do  they  make  suggestions  ?  A.  Yes,  sir,  sometimes. 

Q.  That  is,  Mr.  Jones  and  Mr.  Glenn?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  submit  these  monthly  reports — what  is  their  custom 
with  regard  to  that  ?  Do  they  go  over  that  ?  A.  They  go  over  that, 
and  read  it  out  themselves  to  the  board.  This  committee  reads  the 
reports  to  the  Board  of  Regents. 

Q.  Do  they  consider  them  and  go  over  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


32/ 


0.  You  make  them  at  every  meeting?  A.  Every  meeting  the 
board  has  had  since  I  have  been  here,  eighteen  years. 

Q.  Have  they  any  system  of  passing  upon  your  reports  ?  A.  None 
whatever.  They  accept  them  as  information  as  they  do  other  things 
of  that  sort,  and  they  always  come  down  on  the  minutes  of  the 
board. 

Q.  On  the  minutes?  A.  Yes,  sir,  there  is  a  record  kept  on  the 
minutes. 

Q.  Do  they  meet  in  this  building?  A.  In  this  room,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  department  have  the  other  members  of  the  Board  of 
Regents  ?  A.  I  don't  know  that  I  can  recall  them,  two  members  on 
the  medical  department,  and  two  members  on  the  auditing  depart¬ 
ment,  who  look  after  the  auditing  of  the  bills,  etc.,  and  other  depart¬ 
ments,  building  and  repairs,  etc. 

Q.  Two  physicians?  A.  They  are  here  sometimes  on  one  and 
sometimes  on  the  other.  And  there  are  sub-committees,  of  course, 
for  special  purposes  from  month  to  month. 

Q.  Have  they  any  set  of  rules  for  your  guidance  in  the  manage¬ 
ment  of  the  farm,  or  is  that  left  to  you?  A.  It  is  left  to  me  princi¬ 
pally. 

Q.  It  is  left  to  you  with  recommendations  from  them?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  You  and  they  are  working  in  harmony?  A.  In  perfect  har¬ 
mony  ;  never  had  any  friction  at  all. 

Q.  What  salary  do  they  give  you?  A.  A  hundred  and  fifty  dol¬ 
lars  a  month.  I  get  the  same  that  several  men  around  Columbia, 
here,  get  for  looking  after  a  dairy  or  farm  alone  outside  of  anything 
else. 

Mr.  Hardin — You  keep  the  books?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  look  after  the 
bookkeeping,  and  these  men  furnish  orders  to  the  farm  for  every¬ 
thing  connected  with  it,  and  everything  is  furnished  there. 

O.  You  keep  an  account  of  everything  outside  of  your  depart¬ 
ment?  A.  Only  relating  to  the  finances  and  things  of  that  kind.  I 
do  of  the  delivery  of  the  goods  from  the  store  room,  and  I  keep  a 
book  of  accounts  there.  I  keep  a  book  with  each  department,  and  a 
book  for  what  is  called  “personal  book.”  Any  supplies  that  are 
issued  to  a  patient  I  keep  a  personal  account  with  him,  showing 
the  amount  of  shoes,  clothes,  and  things  that  he  uses  during  the 
year. 

Q.  How  much  clerical  help  have  you  ?  A.  I  have  one  man  at  the 


328 


store  room.  He  charges  it  on  his  book  as  I  call  out  for  the  institu¬ 
tion,  and  I  write  it  down. 

Q.  What  salary  does  he  get  ?  A.  $25,000  a  month. 

Q.  Any  one  in  your  office?  A.  I  have  one  assistant  in  the  office 
that  gets  fifty  dollars  a  month. 

Q.  Do  you  make  an  annual  report  to  the  Board  of  Regents  in 
addition  tb  the  monthly  reports?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  is  it  made?  A.  The  last  meeting  in  the  year.  It  is 
called  the  annual  meeting.  Really,  I  cannot  complete  that  report 
at  the  annual  meeting  for  the  reason  that  the  accounts  are  not 
all  in,  but  I  put  that  in  in  January.  They  have  been  recently  meet¬ 
ing  along  about  the  first  or  second  of  January.  They  do  that  so 
that  I  can  get  in  my  annual  report.  Any  earlier  I  can’t  do  it.  I  can 
approximate  about  how  it  stands,  but  I  cannot  give  it  exactly  until 
the  books  are  closed. 

Q.  The  annual  report  for  the  last  year,  where  is  that?  A.  I  don’t 
know  where  it  is.  I  turned  over  my  part  to  Dr.  Babcock. 

O.  That  was  your  annual  report  for  1908?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  About  what  time  of  the  year  did  you  turn  that  over?  A.  Two 
or  three  weeks  ago. 

O.  What  is  your  year  out  here,  your  scholastic  year?  A.  From 
the  first  of  January  to  the  first  of  January. 

The  Chairman — What  time  is  the  report  usually  published,  Mr. 
Bunch?  A.  Usually  published  for  the  Legislature  when  the  Legis¬ 
lature  is  in  session. 

Q.  That  is  what  we  are  inquiring  into.  We  have  not  seen  any 
report  to  the  last  Legislature.  '  That  is  what  we  wanted  to  see.  Do 
you  know  why  the  report  of  last  year  was  not  made  to  the  Legisla¬ 
ture?  A.  It  was  made  last  year.  I  think  it  came  in  late  but  it  was 
made  last  year,  because  I  have  a  copy  of  it.  I  have  nothing  what¬ 
ever  to  do  with  the  printing  of  the  reports. 

0.  You  are  on  the  stand  and  we  can  ask  you  for  any  information 
about  it.  What  time  did  you  get  your  report?  A.  My  report,  I 
am  always  ready  on  it. 

Q.  At  the  end  of  the  year?  A.  Sometimes  we  cannot  make  a 
balance  the  first  day  of  the  next  fiscal  year,  but  in  a  day  or  two. 

Q.  How  long  since  you  turned  over  your  last  report  to  Dr.  Bab¬ 
cock?  A.  Two  or  three  weeks  ago. 

0.  Delayed  this  time?  A.  I  was  not  delayed. 

O.  You  had  it  made?  A.  I  think  there  was  some  hitch  in  the 


329 


medical  report.  All  have  to  go  in  together.  I  don't  know  this  as  a 
fact. 

Q.  As  to  yonr  own,  you  were  ready  with  it?  A.  My  report  was 
ready. 

Q.  When  was  it  ready?  A,  Certainly  not  later  than  the  third  of 
January. 

Mr.  Hardin — You  have  been  here  since  1891  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  Superintendent  and  Dr.  Thompson  and  you  are  kept  pretty 
busy?  A.  Yes,  sir,  we  are  kept  pretty  busy.  We  have  all  we  can  do. 

Q.  You  say  you  and  Dr.  Babcock  get  along  harmoniously  together? 
A.  Perfectly. 

0.  No  friction  between  you?  A.  None  whatever. 

Q.  He  co-operates  with  you  when  you  call  on  him?  A.  I  have 
no  trouble  at  all  in  my  department,  Mr.  Hardin,  no  trouble  with 
Dr.  Babcock  or  the  Board  of  Regents.  They  have  always  given  me 
what  I  asked  for.  I  never  asked  for  anything  except  what  I 
thought  was  absolutely  necessary  for  the  department.  They  have 
always  been  very  kind  to  me. 

Mr.  Sawyer — Have  you  anything  to  do  with  the  preparation  of 
the  menu  card?  A.  No,  sir,  nothing  whatever. 

Q.  Who  does  that?  A.  I  don't  know.  I  suppose  the  Superin¬ 
tendent  has  charge  of  it.  Dr.  Babcock  has  asked  me  two  or  three 
times,  and  I  have  gotten  it  up  for  him,  but  I  have  no  regular  duties 
along  that  line. 

The  Chairman — As  I  understand,  you  have  charge  of  the  farm 
of  250  acres  ?  Who  have  you  on  the  farm  under  you  ?  A.  I  have 
an  overseer  who  looks  after  the  hands,  follows  the  hands  and  keeps 
them  at  work. 

Q.  How  much  does  he  get?  A.  Fifty  dollars  a  month  last  year, 
fifty-five  dollars  this  year. 

Q.  Any  other  man  ?  A.  At  the  dairy. 

0.  On  the  farm?  A.  That  is  on  the  farm. 

Q.  On  the  farm  proper?  A.  No  white  man  on  the  farm,  no  othef, 
yes,  sir,  I  have  a  man  that  does  the  feeding  of  the  stock.  He  looks 
after  the  feeding  and  things  of  that  sort,  a  man  that  puts  the  feed 
in,  and  everything  of  that  sort,  and  when  the  stock  come  in  he 
looks  after  them. 

O.  Anybody  else  that  attends  to  the  crops?  A.  Nobody  else 
except  the  laborers. 

Q.  You  have  a  man  in  charge  of  the  hogs?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


330 


Q.  What  does  he  get?  A.  Twenty-five  dollars  and  boards  him¬ 
self. 

Q.  In  charge  of  the  dairy  and  130  cows,  too?  A.  He  gets  twenty- 
five  dollars  also. 

0.  That  is  what  Mr.  Hedgepath  gets?  A.  $25.00.  I  think. 

Q.  Outside  of  the  hands,  those  that  might  be  called  farm  hands, 
there  are  the  hog  man  and  the  feed  man  ?  A.  And  the  dairy  man. 

Q.  Those  three?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  One  man  to  feed?  A.  One  looks  after  the  feeding  of  the 
cattle.  He  goes  over  there  and  looks  after  the  stock  on  the  farm, 
sometimes  works,  etc. 

O.  That  is  your  men?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  On  the  farm?  A.  Those  are  all  the  white  men  I  have.  This 
overseer,  the  foreman  of  the  dairy,  the  foreman  of  the  hog  lot  and 
the  feeder  of  the  horses  and  cattle. 

Q.  You  have  charge  of  the  store  room  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  And  you  spend  a  few  hours  there  each  day?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  hours?  A.  That  varies.  If  we  have  a  requisition 
to  fill  that  takes  two  or  three  hours.  That  is  outside  of  the  kitchen 
supplies.  If  we  have  a  requisition  to  fill  from  the  wards  we  occupy 
from  about  half-past  eight  in  the  morning  until  one  o’clock  in  the 
afternoon.  He  does  Taylor  in  the  afternoon. 

Q.  Do  you  need  more  help  in  the  store  room?  A.  Well,  yes,  sir. 
If  we  had  more  help  we  could  keep  our  goods  in  better  condition. 

0.  Do  you  think  they  are  kept  in  a  satisfactory  condition  now? 
A.  No.  They  are  not.  We  have  no  time.  We  don’t  have  time  to 
keep  things  on  shelves.  It  is  very  convenient  to  us  and  we  can  fill 
requisitions  very  rapidly,  but  the  goods  are  not  kept  in  as  good  con¬ 
dition  as  they  might  be  if  we  had  more  help. 

Q.  Would  you  think  it  desirable?  A.  In  other  institutions  that  I 
have  visited  they  have  two  or  three  more  men  that  stay  in  the  store 
room.  In  Georgia  they  have  two  men  who  do  nothing  else  except 
look  after  the  store. 

Q.  As  a  result  would  they  keep  things  in  very  nice  shape?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  as  good  as  you  find  them  in  an  ordinary  store  on  the 
streets. 

Q.  I  want  to  get  information  as  to  why  it  is  desirable?  A.  I  don’t 
think  you  would  gain  anything  except  that  it  would  be  more  pre¬ 
sentable,  if  you  had  company  to  come  in  to  see  it. 

0.  Do  you  think  there  is  any  waste  in  the  present  condition  ?  A. 
None  whatever.  There  can’t  be. 


33 1 


Q.  In  your  reports  to  the  Legislature,  under  the  head  of  mainten¬ 
ance,  could  you  divide  up  the  amounts  under  different  heads  so  as  to 
show  what  they  cost,  clothing  and  food,  etc.  ?  A.  I  could  do  that, 
but  I  have  not  had  the  help  to  get  that  up. 

Q.  It  would  not  be  possible  with  the  help  you  have?  A.  It  would 
be  possible  by  giving  overhours  to  the  work.  In  that  way  I  could 
get  it  up. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  overhours,  working  at  night?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  I  would  work  at  night.  I  have  worked  over  here  at  night  until 
after  midnight  frequently,  and  have  worked  on  Sunday.  If  you  want 
me  to  do  it,  I  can  do  that  in  shipshape  after  this. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  if  with  the  present  force  you  can  do  it  in  working 
hours?  A.  No. 

Q.  How  many  accounts  have  you  with  the  patients?  A.  We  keep 
a  personal  account  book  for  each  department.  For  instance,  we 
keep  a  personal  account  book  with  the  white  women,  a  personal 
account  book  with  the  white  men,  a  personal  account  book  with  the 
colored  men,  and  an  account  book  for  the  colored  women. 

Q.  In  which  you  credit  the  amounts  to  your  account  and  how 
paid  out?  A.  Whenever  those  requisitions  come  in  they  are  either 
for  ward  use  or  for  personal  use.  When  they  are  for  personal  use, 
they  are  entered  personally,  and  when  they  are  for  ward  use,  they  are 
entered  accordingly. 

Q.  About  how  many  personal  accounts  have  you?  A.  We  have 
a  personal  account  with  every  patient  in  the  institution  that  we 
furnish  anything  at  all  to,  anything,  a  hat,  a  pair  of  shoes,  or 
anything  else,  we  enter  it  in  the  personal  account  book.  We  don’t 
keep  an  account  with  those  particular  patients,  but  we  can  refer 
to  them.  If  we  think  they  are  getting  too  much,  we  can  go  over  the 
books,  for  instance,  and  tell  how  often  they  got  shoes. 

Q.  That  is  in  the  store?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Different  accounts?  A.  They  have  personal  accounts  where 
they  have  personal  funds  to  buy  special  things,  things  not  furnished. 

Q.  With  them?  A.  We  keep  personal  accounts  with  those  also. 
There  are  several  hundred  of  them. 

Q.  Five  hundred?  A.  I  should  judge  so,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  a  special  clerk  for  that  work?  A.  No.  We  have 
not.  The  board  has  provided  one  now,  but  that  is  in  the  last  month. 

0.  What  is  the  clerk  paid?  A.  No  amount  has  been  fixed  as  yet. 

Mr.  Harrison — Those  “commissions”  I  believe  you  call  them? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 


332 


O.  Does  that  not  interfere  very  seriously  with  your  work  here? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  it  gave  us  about  as  much  trouble  as  any  other  work 
we  had  to  do.  It  is  a  very  unsatisfactory  work. 

Q.  And  I  presume  there  is  a  great  deal  of  complaint  from  the 
patients?  A.  The  patients  are  dissatisfied  with  their  things.  It  is 
impossible  to  go  down  the  street  with  five  or  six  hundred  commis¬ 
sions  and  get  every  single  item  to  please  the  party  that  sends  for  it. 

0.  Is  there  any  special  day  when  they  brought  those  commissions 
in,  or  did  they  come  in  one  at  a  time?  A.  Originally  they  came 
in  every  day,  but  the  commissions  finally  got  so  heavy  that  it  was 
impossible  for  me  with  the  help  I  had  to  attend  to  them  regularly, 
and  we  then  had  two  days  of  each  week  set  apart  for  commission 
days,  and  we  just  devoted  those  days  to  commissions  alone. 

0.  In  other  words,  those  commissions  as  far  as  your  work  was 
concerned,  were  filled?  A.  With  the  help  in  the  office  I  could 
attend  to  the  outside  work.  I  have  not  for  the  past  several  years 
had  much  to  do  with  commissions,  but  my  assistant  in  the  office  has 
not  been  able  to  do  much  else. 

Q.  From  the  standpoint  you  have  been  able  to  observe,  don’t 
you  think  it  is  a  very  bad  plan,  that  of  buying  on  commissions  ?  A. 
It  is  in  a  way,  but  it  adds  very  much  to  the  comfort  of  the  patients. 
I  don’t  know  very  well  how  we  would  get  along  without  something 
of  the  sort.  I  don’t  know  what  the  rules  of  other  institutions  are. 

Q.  They  do  not  permit  it  in  the  institutions  you  have  seen  ?  A.  In 
Georgia  they  do. 

0.  I  want  to  ask  you  something:  There  is  a  whole  lot  of  talk 
about  the  sanitary  condition  of  the  dairy  and  the  patients  drinking 
the  dairy  milk.  You  have  a  steam  boiler  out  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  Would  it  be  possible,  at  a  very  small  expense,  to  pipe  the 
steam  from  that  boiler  up  to  the  dairy  building?  Could  that  be  done? 
A.  It  would  be  possible. 

Q.  Is  it  feasible  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  With  a  small  outlay  you  could  keep  clothing,  say  white  cloth¬ 
ing,  and  dress  them  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  those  appliances  were  furnished  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Is  the  milking  perfectly  sanitary?  A.  It  could  be  made  more 
so.  It  would  be  possible  to  make  it  more  so,  I  suppose,  if  a  person 
would  take  a  good  deal  of  time  and  discretion  and  get  those  patients 
to  bathe. 

0.  It  really  could  be  done  ?  A.  It  can  be  done,  of  course. 

0.  That  was  what  I  was  after.  It  would  be  feasible  in  your 


333 


judgment?  A.  O,  yes,  with  the  proper  help  to  get  them  into  it. 
They  are  very  stubborn  beasts.  They  are  sometimes  a  little  worse 
than  the  proverbial  ox. 

Q.  They  could  be  really  bathed  and  dressed  for  that  work  each 
time  they  did  the  milking?  A.  It  could  be  done.  I  don’t  know 
whether  that  would  be  profitable  or  not.  I  don’t  know  of  a  single 
dairy  being  run  that  way  anywhere.  I  went  down  the  other  day  to  a 
dairy,  that  is  one  of  the  new  dairies,  and  is  doing  it  in  a  nicer  way 
than  any  other  dairy  I  know  of  in  South  Carolina,  and  they  tell  me 
that  it  is  impossible  for  them  to  carry  out  any  such  plan  as  that. 

Q.  That  was  just  what  I  was  driving  at.  That  is  exactly  what 
I  was  asking  about.  A.  If  you  go  to  the  Borden  people,  who  get 
out  the  highest  priced  milk  they  can  and  they  do  this  sort  of  thing, 
but  to  go  in  and  take  a  whole  lot  of  patients  and  bathe  them  and 
put  on  a  new  suit,  I  don't  think  it  is  the  proper  thing  in  this  institu¬ 
tion. 

0.  From  a  sanitary  standpoint  you  don’t  think  it  would  be  feasi¬ 
ble?  A.  I  don’t  believe  it  would  add  anything  to  the  safety  or 
efficiency  of  the  milk  at  all.  If  you  want  to  go  in  for  appearance 
and  sell  milk  for  seventy-five  or  eighty  cents  or  a  dollar  a  gallon, 
then  it  is  necessary  to  have  those  things. 

O.  From  the  standpoint  of  the  hospital  you  don’t  think  it  is  an 
improvement  that  should  be  made?  A.  No,  I  do  not.  I  have  not 
thought  it  would  be  profitable.  I  think  it  is  very  well  to  have  them 
bathe  their  hands,  and  have  them  bathe  as  often  as  possible. 

Q.  The  reason  I  brought  this  out  is  that  it  has  developed  that 
you  had  absolutely  no  control  beyond  the  very  business  of  milking, 
as  I  understand,  you  have  no  authority  over  the  bathing  of  those 
patients?  A.  I  have  nothing  to  do  with  that  at  all  as  far  as  that  is 
concerned,  except  in  the  way  of  coaxing,  and  things  of  that  sort. 
They  all  have  to  come  to  me.  I  give  them  little  extras,  and  I  never 
have  any  trouble  with  them,  but  if  I  were  to  undertake  to  force  them 
to  that,  I  would  have  a  job  on  my  hands  that  I  never  had  before. 
I  realize  that  fact. 

Q.  I  wanted  to  ask  you  from  a  financial  standpoint,  in  asking 
for  an  appropriation,  do  you  think  it  the  best  method  in  asking  for  an 
appropriation  for  a  hospital — what  do  you  think  is  the  best  method  in 
case  of  repairs  and  things  like  that?  You  are  the  financial  officer  of 
this  institution,  and  I  ask  you  ?  A.  My  opinions  are  embraced  right 
here. 

Q.  Would  it  be  better  to  ask  for  an  appropriation  from  the  stand- 


334 


point  of  general  repairs  or  particular  repairs?  A.  I  think  that  every 
dollar  of  money  that  is  appropriated  to  this  or  any  other  institution 
ought  to  be  for  a  specific  purpose,  and  it  ought  to  be  confined  to 
the  building,  or  whatever  it  may  be,  that  it  is  given  for. 

Q.  In  other  words,  when  you  ask  for  an  appropriation,  it  should 
be  asked  for  a  specific  purpose?  A.  Taking  it  as  a  rule. 

Q.  That  is  the  idea?  I  just  wanted  your  opinion?  A.  That  is 
my  opinion. 

Dr.  Taylor — You  have  farmed  that  farm  for  eighteen  years?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  made  a  profit  on  that  farm  every  year?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  A  very  neat,  clear  profit  to  the  credit  of  the  State?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  How  much  last  year?  A.  Last  year  I  made  net  about  twenty 
thousand  dollars. 

Q.  Twenty  thousand  dollars  made  to  the  profit  of  the  State  of 
South  Carolina  on  two  hundred  and  fifty  acres  of  land,  is  that  right? 
A.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Dick — Did  you  count  interest?  A.  No  interest,  taxes  or  any¬ 
thing. 

Q.  What  is  your  opinion,  from  a  financial  standpoint,  for  the 
asylum — would  you  get  any  more  work  out  of  the  patients  than  you 
do  now,  if  you  separated  the  races?  A.  My  opinion  is  that  if  you 
want  to  run  an  economical  asylum  you  had  better  leave  the  races 
together.  It  is  impossible  to  get  any  work  of  any  consequence  out  of 
white  people,  and  the  negroes  do  quite  a  lot  of  the  drudgery. 

Dr.  Taylor — How  many  pay  patients  do  you  think  are  working? 
A.  I  think  about  25  or  30. 

Mr.  Glenn — Have  you  ever  visited  any  other  hospital?  A.  I 
have  visited  two  or  three.  I  don’t  do  much  of  that.  I  saw  more 
of  the  Hospital  at  Milledgeville  than  anywhere  else. 

(Mr.  Bunch  thereupon  read  a  comparative  table  of  food  supplies 
produced  on  the  farm  from  1890  to  1908,  both  inclusive.) 

Dr.  Ray — You  arrive  at  those  conclusions  from  the  market  value? 
A.  This  is  unfair  to  the  institution,  for  the  reason  that  the  cabbage 
we  are  furnishing  here  now  we  have  charged  to  the  asylum,  though- 
they  are  of  a  better  quality — and  we  have  charged  at  summer  time 
prices  for  the  vegetables  we  have  furnished. 

Q.  You  get  those  prices  in  detail?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  How  much  do  you  charge  for  milk?  A.  Twenty-five  cents 
for  the  last  two  years. 


335 


Q.  You  could  not  buy  that  on  the  market  at  that  price?  A.  I 
don’t  suppose  I  could  buy  it  for  anything  like  that,  on  account  of 
the  fact  that  the  price  on  feed  is  fast  going  up,  and  milk  has  gone 
up  in  price  considerably. 

Dr.  Babcock — How  many  suits  of  clothes  did  you  buy  from  the 
United  States  Army?  A.  We  bought  on  several  occasions.  I  think 
we  bought  seven  or  eight  thousand  suits  from  St.  Louis  on  two  or 
three  occasions. 

0.  How  much  a  piece  did  you  give  for  those  suits?  A.  About 
thirty  cents  a  suit. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  figure  you  saved  on  the  transaction  in 
watching  out  for  a  sale  like  that,  and  sending  a  representative  out 
there?  A.  No,  sir,  I  have  not  figured  it  out.  I  paid  for  the  shirts 
about  thirty  cents  and  paid  3.49  cents,  as  well  as  can  remember, 
for  the  suits. 

Q.  And  on  the  clothing  you  would  have  saved  at  least  two  dol¬ 
lars?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  suits?  A.  Seven  or  eight  thousand — I  don’t  know 
just  how  many.  We  have  several  boxes  of  those  khaki  suits  now. 

Dr.  Taylor — You  must  have  saved  ten  thousand  dollars?  A.  It 
has  been  some  years,  and  we  paid,  I  think,  from  thirty  to  thirty- 
seven  cents. 

Q.  You  saved  at  least  eight  thousand  dollars  on  that  purchase? 
A.  There  is  no  doubt  of  that  at  all.  I  am  positive  of  that.  We 
bought  from  Savannah  a  lot  of  blankets,  army  blankets,  at  fifty 
cents,  that  were  worth  two  dollars  and  fifty  cents,  and  we  bought 
at  lot  of  sheets  for  sixty  cents,  that  were  worth  twenty-five  cents  a 
yard.  We  bought  below  cost  there  and  at  St.  Louis  also. 

0.  Several  thousand  dollars — and  that  was  due  to  the  watch¬ 
fulness  and  carefulness  of  yourself  and  Dr.  Babcock?  A.  Yes,  sir, 
and  I  wish  to  say  in  this  connection  that  Dr.  Babcock  went  there,  and 
he  stood  over  those  things  day  after  day,  and  frequently  without 
any  meals  or  anything  of  that  sort.  He  staid  there  and  watched 
that  thing  for  the  interest  of  the  institution. 

Mr.  Hardin — The  Superintendent  has  been  superintending  these 
buildings  out  here.  Do  you  think  the  State  has  saved  any  money? 
A.  There  is  no  doubt  about  that,  but  I  don't  know  just  what  the 
fees  would  be  for  architects.  It  must  be  considerable  in  the  size 
buildings  we  have  here. 

0.  In  connection  with  the  sale  at  Savannah,  weren’t  you  offered 


336 


a  consideration  to  leave  the  sale?  A.  Yes,  sir,  we  were  offered  five 
hundred  dollars  apiece. 

Dr.  Ray — Don’t  you  think  the  quality  of  the  buildings  is  better 
than  we  would  have  gotten  from  an  architect?  A.  I  don’t  think 
there  is  any  doubt  about  that. 

Q.  They  are  not  shoddy  buildings?  A.  You  were  asking  about 
buying  property.  I  have  had  those  things  offered  me  two  or  three 
times. 

Q.  In  the  way  of  rebates  ?  A.  I  had  a  party  to  come  to  me  once 
to  sell  me  shoes  to  be  used  at  this  institution.  He  came  up  here  one 
afternoon,  and  said  to  me  that  he  wanted  me  to  go  down  to  the 
hotel  and  look  at  his  shoes,  and  I  did  not  go  as  quickly  as  he  wanted 
me,  and  he  came  and  says  to  me,  “I  want  to  make  a  proposition  to 
you.  I  don’t  know  how  you  will  take  it,  but  I  would  like  to  sell 
you  shoes.  We  can  sell  you  just  as  cheap  as  you  have  been  buying 
elsewhere,  and  for  every  pair  of  shoes  that  you  buy  from  us,  we 
will  send  you  a  check.  The  amount  will  be  charged  so  and  so,  and 
we  will  send  you  a  check  for  twenty-five  cents.’’  I  says,  “Hold  on,” 
and  I  stopped  the  carriage  and  I  went  back,  and  told  him  I  could 
not  deal  with  any  such  firm.  I  reported  the  matter  to  Dr.  Babcock 
and  the  Regents.  Later,  I  don’t  know  just  how  long,  I  had  a  com¬ 
munication  from  a  firm  that  wanted  to  sell  me  flour,  and  later 
came  in  and  made  a  proposition  that  they  would  give  me  twenty-five 
cents  a  barrel  for  the  flour  bought  for  the  institution.  I  wrote  a  reply 
to  that  which  I  think  I  can  find  on  the  letter  book.  I  carried  it  over 
and  showed  it  to  Dr.  Babcock,  and  he  asked  to  answer  it,  and  I 
sent  it  on  to  him.  This  man  came  back  with  a  reply  of  twelve  pages 
trying  to  explain  that  he  did  not  intend  to  bribe  us,  and  that  I  did  not 
understand,  and  that  he  could  explain  how  I  could  get  it  back  to  the 
institution’s  credit.  One  day  after  that,  I  was  out  at  the  store  attend¬ 
ing  to  my  work  there,  and  had  a  note  from  my  daughter,  who  was 
my  assistant  at  that  time,  saying  that  Mr.  So  and  So,  was  in  the  office 
and  wanted  to  sell  me  flour.  I  wrote  on  the  back  of  the  note  that 
we  did  not  need  any  flour,  and  besides  that  I  could  not  deal  with 
the  man  because  he  had  offered  me  a  bribe.  Three  or  four  times 
after  that  they  tried  to  bribe  me  after  he  left.  I  am  sorry  I  did  not 
keep  the  letter.  I  had  the  letter  on  file.  I  reported  the  matter  to 
Dr.  Babcock  and  the  Regents.  I  think  they  will  bear  me  out  in  that. 

Dr.  Ray — You  always  buy  bv  competition?  A.  I  try  to  do  it. 
Sometimes  we  run  out  entirely  and  have  to  buy.  As  a  rule  we  do. 
Certain  little  things  we  have  to  buy  from  certain  houses  for  the 


337 


reason  that  that  house  controls  the  supply  of  those  things  especially 
for  us,  things  that  we  know  nobody  else  carries.  We  know  that 
house  keeps  that  particular  thing  and  we  depend  upon  the  house 
to  furnish  it,  but  the  heavy  things,  such  as  flour,  meat  and  lard 
are  always  bought  by  competitive  bids. 

Mr.  Harrison — How  about  the  capacity  of  your  storage  house, 
your  storage  room,  is  it  large  enough  for  your  purposes?  A.  No, 
sir,  nothing  is  large  enough.  We  have  outgrown  everything  we 
have  got. 

Q.  Is  it  large  enough  for  you  to  hold  sufficient  Hour  on  hand 
there  to  enable  you  to  conduct  the  business  satisfactorily?  A.  Yes, 
it  is  large  enough  for  this  reason  :  In  our  climate  flour  becomes 
musty,  and  it  is  impossible  for  us  to  buy  more  than  two  cars  in 
the  spring.  We  buy  in  the  winter  so  as  to  carry  us  through  and 
keep  us  from  being  dependent. 

Q.  That  is  the  best  way?  A.  It  would  not  be  the  proper  thing 
to  buy  more  for  the  reason  that  it  would  be  more  or  less  musty. 

Q.  In  other  words,  the  storage  space  is  sufficient  under  those 
conditions?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Dr.  Taylor — You  get  no  supplies  from  the  storehouse,  do  you? 
A.  No-,  sir. 

Q.  For  yourself?  A.  For  myself? 

Q.  Yes.  A.  Sometimes  I  buy  in  a  lot  of  things.  I  may  want  to 
take  off  one  or  two  articles  I  take  out  for  myself.  The  institution 
officially  furnishes  me  nothing. 

0.  That  one  hundred  and  fifty  dollars  covers  everything,  food, 
board  and  everything?  A.  I  get  nothing  except  what  I  pay  for.  If 
I  buy  vegetables  from  the  farm  I  pay  for  them. 

Q.  All  the  institution  furnishes  is  your  actual  salary  and  the  house, 
fuel  and  lights?  A.  Fuel  and  lighting.  You  were  talking  about  the 
per  capita  expense  in  the  institution.  I  have  a  statement  here. 

(Statement  read.) 

Mr.  Carey — What  was  the  highest  year?  A.  1889,  $152.78. 

Mr.  Dick — How  many  patients  ?  A.  754. 

Q.  Flow  many  assistants  do  you  think  you  need  in  your  depart¬ 
ment  ?  A.  That  is  owing  to  whether  they  are  going  to  separate  the 
departments  or  not.  If  I  am  going  to  be  steward — steward,  secre- 
retary  and  treasurer,  and  manager  of  the  farm,  general  outside  man. 
I  need  more  than  I  have. 

The  Chairman — Have  you  any  other  statement  you  would  like  to 


22— A. 


338 


put  in  evidence?  A.  I  don't  know  that  I  have.  There  are  some 
things. 

Q.  No  other  official  statements?  A.  No. 

Mr.  Glenn — You  have  some  suggestions  ?  A.  A  lot  of  these  might 
more  properly  come  before  the  Regents.  I  can  read  them  and  offer 
them  if  you  want  them. 

Mr.  Harrison — It  is  very  important  that  he  should  file  them. 
They  should  not  be  overlooked. 

Witness,  after  reading  from  report :  The  banks  carry  us  from  the 
thirty-first  of  December  until  the  fifteenth  of  March. 

Mr.  Sawyer — That  is  an  arrangement  that  you  have  had  for  the 
last  twenty-five  years?  A.  I  don’t  know  just  how  long,  but  it  has 
been  a  long  time.  Under  the  present  law  we  are  obliged  to  show 
our  expense  accounts  before  we  can  get  a  warrant  from  the  Comp¬ 
troller-General  on  the  State  Treasurer  at  all.  In  the  meantime  we 
have  to  run  three  or  four  or  five  thousand  dollars  in  debt  on  account 
of  bills  coming  in  that  have  to  be  paid  before  that.  Take  the  medical 
department,  we  have  got  to  pay  those  bills  every  week.  Sometimes 
it  runs  six  or  seven  or  eight  hundred  dollars  a  week.  Then  we  have 
got  to  pay  express  and  freight,  and  we  have  got  to  pay  for  poultry 
and  eggs,  such  things  as  we  have  to  buy  and  pay  cash  for.  We  have 
to  go  to  the  banks  and  borrow  the  money.  That  costs  considerable 
interest.  Outside  of  that,  we  ought  to  have  some  fund  available  so 
that  we  can  meet  a  lot  of  bills,  demands,  where  we  are  offered  from 
one  to  five  per  cent,  discount  for  cash.  All  that  means  a  good  saving. 

The  Chairman — You  want  it  added  in  the  appropriation?  A.  I 
think  there  ought  to  be  a  certain  fund  set  apart  by  which  this  institu¬ 
tion  can  in  some  way  draw  this  money  in  advance.  Under  the  old 
law,  which  was  not  perfect,  but  it  was  better  in  some  respects  than 
the  new  law,  in  that  we  could  draw  one-twelfth  at  the  end  of  each 
month,  and  at  the  end  of  the  year  we  could  draw  out  the  balance  we 
had  on  hand,  which  was  sufficient  to  enable  us  to  carry  the  institu¬ 
tion  until  the  next  appropriation  became  available.  Under  the  new 
law  if  we  had  ten,  twenty  or  thirty  thousand  dollars  we  could  not 
touch  it. 

0.  Wouldn't  a  simple  appropriation  for  twelve  months  solve  the 
problem?  A.  To  a  certain  extent,  if  we  could  draw  out  with  a  little 
surplus.  If  we  had,  say,  ten  or  fifteen  thousand  dollars  ahead,  it 
would  completely  solve  the  problem,  but  we  would  be  obliged  to 
have  a  surplus. 

Q.  That  would  tide  you  over?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


339 


Q.  Outside  of  that  you  want  a  special  fund  of  about  ten  thousand 
dollars?  A.  So  as  to  meet  contingencies  as  they  arise,  contingencies 
as  they  come  along.  There  are  a  number  of  things  that  we  cannot 
touch  at  all  unless  we  have  the  cash,  eggs,  poultry,  fruit,  etc.  We 
are  obliged  to  pay  cash  for  those.  We  can’t  draw  that  money  until 
the  middle  of  March. 

Q.  You  could  save  that  interest?  A.  Yes,  sir,  we  could  save  that. 

D.  F.  Hedgpatii,  white,  being  duly  sworn,  says : 

Mr.  Carey— You  are  in  charge  of  the  dairy?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  charge  of  it  ?  A.  Three  years. 

Q.  How  many  cows  are  you  milking  now?  A.  136. 

Q.  How  much  milk  do  you  get  a  day?  A.  From  180  to  190. 

Q.  Gallons?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  do,  superintend  the  milking?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  does  the  milking?  A.  Patients. 

Q.  Negroes  or  whites?  A.  Negroes. 

Q.  Are  they  pretty  clean,  or  dirty?  A.  Tolerable  clean. 

Q.  Do  you  try  to  make  them  keep  clean  ?  A.  I  do. 

Q.  What  do  you  require  them  to  do  before  they  do  the  milking? 
A.  I  require  them  to  wash  their  hands. 

Q.  Anything  else?  A.  I  require  them  to  go  to  milking  then. 

Q.  Do  they  wash  the  udders  of  the  cows?  A.  I  have  a  set  that 
I  send  ahead  to  do  that. 

Q.  Those  fellows  that  come  are  sent  to  you  here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  By  the  doctors?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  got  any  there  that  haven’t  got  sense  enough  to  do 
the  work?  A.  Those  that  we  have  to  do  the  milking  are  picked 
out.  Those  that  are  a  little  off  we  have  to  clean  up. 

Q.  The  better  class  do  the  milking?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  the  cows  in  good  condition?  A.  I  think  so. 

Q.  Fat?  A.  Yes,  sir,  most  of  them. 

Q.  There  is  a  complaint  here  about  your  milking  not  being  clean, 
that  your  milkers  are  not  kept  clean?  What  have  you  to  say  about 
that?  A.  The  colored  men  we  have  to  do  the  milking  bathe  here, 

I  suppose,  once  or  twice  a  week,  and  put  on  clean  clothes  about  twice 

a  week,  and  when  they  come  there  I  have  them  bathe  their  hands 
each  time.  They  always  wash  before  they  go  to  milking.  We  have 
two  or  three  to  go  ahead  and  wash  the  bags. 

Q.  The  bags  are  always  washed?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


340 


Q.  You  stand  there  and  see  them  washed?  A.  Yes,  sir,  the 
attendant  I  have  stands  there  and  sees  to  that. 

Q.  Who  is  he?  A.  Willie  Jacobs. 

Q.  What  does  he  do?  A.  Attends  to  the  milking. 

Q.  Helps  you  with  the  cows?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  you  milk,  what  do  you  do  with  the  milk?  A.  Put  it 
in  cans  and  send  it  right  up. 

Q.  Do  you  weigh  it?  A.  Yes,  sir,  from  every  cow. 

Q.  Do  you  keep  a  record  of  what  each  cow  is  doing?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  a  daily  and  a  monthly  report. 

Q.  Who  do  you  report  to?  A.  Mr.  Bunch. 

Q.  Do  your  cows  average  up  pretty  well?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  they  average  a  day?  A.  I  have  136  that  I  milk  now, 
and  I  got  two  hundred  gallons  yesterday. 

Q.  Do  you  feed  your  cows  well?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  On  stuff  raised  on  the  farm?  A.  Some  raised  on  the  farm, 
and  bran  and  meal  we  buy. 

Q.  You  mix  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  have  anything  to  do  with  the  butchering?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  How  is  that  done?  A.  It  is  done  as  often  as  necessary. 

Q.  Is  it  clean?  A.  Yes,  sir,  it  is  done  clean. 

Q.  Who  does  it,  a  patient?  A.  A  colored  man  brings  some 
patients  there  and  does  it. 

Q.  I  mean  at  the  head.  Isn’t  he  a  patient?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  they  get  good  beef  over  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  After  your  milk  is  sent  over  here  you  have  nothing  more  to 
do  with  it  ?  A.  No,  sir,  I  have  nothing  more  to  do  about  it. 

Q.  The  dairy  is  out  on  the  farm?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  milk  twice  a  day?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  hours  do  you  milk  ?  A.  Commence  about  half-past 
seven,  between  that  and  eight,  of  a  morning,  and  about  half-past 
three  in  the  evening  this  time  of  year. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  charge  of  the  dairy  ?  A.  About 
three  years,  a  little  over. 

Q.  Those  patients  that  do  the  milking,  do  they  keep  their  clothes 
clean  ?  A.  Pretty  clean,  the  ones  that  do  the  milking.  The  others 
do  not.  They  get  mealy  by  handling  the  meal,  and  they  clean  up. 

Q.  Do  they  milk  in  the  stalls?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  While  eating?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  And  when  they  get  through  milking  what  becomes  of  the 


34i 


cows  ?  A.  Before  dinner  we  carry  them  to  the  pasture,  or  put  them 
into  the  lot. 

Q.  You  haven’t  got  much  pasture?  A.  Just  room  for  a  little 
exercise. 

Q.  You  rely  mainly  on  feeding  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  think  that  farm  over  there  is  run  pretty  well?  A.  I 
think  so. 

Q.  Could  you  better  it  ?  Do  you  need  anything  out  there  ?  A. 

I  don’t  know  that  I  could.  I  need  a  little  bigger  barn  room.  I 
haven't  got  quite  room  enough  for  my  feed,  but  the  complaint  was 
that  the  appropriation  was  not  big  enough  to  build  it. 

Q.  You  did  not  have  money  to  fix  it  with?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  charge  of  anything  else  besides  the  dairy?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  known  as  the  dairy  man?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  experience  does  it  take  in  that  kind  of  business  ?  ’ 
A.  This  is  the  only  experience  I  have  had,  three  years,  outside  of 
my  own  cows. 

Q.  You  were  raised  a  farmer?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  ?  A.  Fairfield  County,  and  in  Lexington.  I  came 
from  Lexington  here. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  get?  A.  Twenty-five  dollars  a  tnonth  and 
my  board. 

Q.  That  negro,  what  does  he  get  ?  A.  I  don't  know  exactly 
what  he  gets.  I  never  inquired  about  that. 

Mr.  Hardin — jYou  have  a  cement  floor  over  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  keep  it  swept  out?  A.  Yes,  sir,  clean  it  out  once  a 
day. 

Dr.  Taylor — Is  that  dairy  scrubbed  once  a  day?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  With  what?  A.  With  shovels,  brooms,  etc. 

Q.  Do  you  use  water  and  sand?  A.  We  sand  it  after  we  get  it 
cleaned  out. 

Q.  It  is  scrubbed  regularly  and  kept  covered  with  sand  ?  A.  It  is 
scrubbed  out  with  shovels,  and  then  we  run  wire  brushes  over  it, 
and  brooms,  and  then  put  sand  over  it. 

O.  Within  the  last  year,  wasn’t  there  over  there  a  cow  that  gave 
milk  to  this  institution  that  you  thought  was  infected  with  tuber¬ 
culosis,  and  that  you  had  examined  to  see  if  it  had  consumption? 
A.  I  don’t  think  so.  We  have  had  one  or  two  that  we  thought  had 
consumption.  No,  sir,  we  have  not  had  any  cows  examined  any 
more  than  Mr.  Bunch  and  I  examined  them. 


342 


Mr.  Bunch — Don’t  you  remember  that  we  had  a  thermometer 
test  of  them?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  did  not  understand. 

Dr.  Taylor — You  can  always  tell  whether  a  cow  is  healthy  or 
not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  a  cow  is  healthy  and  fat  it  has  little  chance  of  having  con¬ 
sumption  ?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  can  always  tell  when  it  is  healthy. 

Q.  But  all  the  cows  that  looked  to  be  the  slighest  bit  off  have 
been  tested  with  a  thermometer  which  shows  whether  they  have  got 
fever  or  not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  a  single  case  appear  in  the  dairy?  A.  No,  sir,  I  don’t 
think  so. 

Mr.  Carey — Do  you  get  your  board  besides  the  twenty-five  dol¬ 
lars?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Board  and  twenty-five  dollars?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  get  a  house  to  live  in?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  on  the  farm?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  There  have  been  some  parties  that  claim  here  that  you  allow 
filth  from  the  cows  to  get  into  the  milk  while  the  negroes  are  milk¬ 
ing?  A.  That  is  only  imagination  with  outsiders.  It  is  not  so 

at  all. 

Q.  You  are  there  to  look  after  that  part?  A.  I  am  there  to  look 
after  that  myself. 

Q.  And  you  know  it  does  not  happen?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  say  it  is  not  so  about  the  cow’s  filth  getting  into  the 
milk?  A.  No,  sir.  That  is  not  so.  I  make  a  report  every  month 
to  Mr.  Bunch. 

Q.  And  a  daily  report?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Dr.  Taylor — Mr.  Hedgepath,  isn't  it  almost  impossible  to  have 
milk  that  does  not  show  some  sediment  no  matter  how  clean  or 
careful  you  are — the  cow  is  bound  to  switch  its  tail?  A.  I  don’t 
know  how  it  gets  in.  It  is  almost  impossible  to  keep  out  everything. 

Q.  A  cow  is  a  pretty  filthy  animal  anyhow,  is  not  that  a  fact? 
A.  In  fly  time  they  shake  about  a  little  bit  and  it  will  get  in.  My 
own  wife  would  have  it  that  way  sometimes  and  she  was  about  as 
clean  as  anybody  else.  I  have  known  her  to  strain  the  milk  the 
second  time  and  still  have  some  in  it  even  then. 

Mr.  Carey — You  think  the  milk  you  send  over  is  clean,  do  you? 
A.  I  drink  it,  and  I  think  I  am  as  timid  as  anybody  I  know  of 
about  it. 

Q.  Did  you  send  it  over  here  clean?  A.  I  tried  to  send  it  over 
clean. 


343 


(The  Commission  thereupon  adjourned  until  tomorrow  at  io 
o’clock  A.  M.) 


Columbia,  S.  C.,  17  May,  1909. 

Pursuant  to  adjournment  the  Commission  met  this  day  at  the 
State  Hospital  for  the  Insane. 

Present :  The  members  of  the  Commission. 

The  Chairman  called  the  meeting  to  order. 

Mr.  Carey  moved  that  all  the  officials,  including  Mr.  Bunch,  Dr. 
Babcock  and  the  Board  of  Regents,  be  requested  to  file  in  writing 
with  the  Commission  their  recommendations  instead  of  giving  testi¬ 
mony  as  to  them. 

Carried. 

Mr.  Bates  moved  that  the  recommendations  be  filed  within  thirty 
days  after  the  close  of  the  taking  of  testimony. 

Carried. 

Mr.  Bunch  was  thereupon  recalled  to  the  stand,  and  testified  as 
follows : 

The  Chairman — Mr.  Bunch,  I  understand  from  your  testimony 
yesterday,  that  your  report  for  last  year  was  made  out  by  the  first 
week  in  January?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  statement  was  handed  to  the  Comptroller-General,  was 
it?  A.  The  statement  was  not  handed  to  the  Comptroller  General, 
but  to  Mr.  Holmes  of  the  Comptroller-General’s  office.  He  called 
me  up  over  the  ’phone  and  asked  me  for  the  amount  the  board  had 
asked  for.  He  asked  for  it  and  I  gave  it  to  him  over  the  ’phone. 

Q.  So  the  Treasurer  was  in  possession  of  the  recommendations 
of  the  institution  as  to  the  appropriations  necessary  for  the  ensuing 
year?  A.  I  don’t  know  about  that.  I  cannot  tell  you  that.  I  know 
he  called  me  up,  and  asked  the  amount  the  board  had  asked  for, 
and  I  read  it  off  to  him  over  the  ’phone. 

Q.  That  was  the  Comptroller-General’s  office?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  there  any  action  taken  by  the  Board  of  Regents  last  fall 
as  to  the  money  expended  for  repairs  during  the  latter  part  of  last 
year?  A.  No,  there  was  no  action  taken,  no  direct  action.  In  their 
meeting  they  decided  that  inasmuch  as  the  building  was  just  in 
condition  that  it  would  be  necessary  to  complete  it  to  get  it  occupied 
that  it  would  be  best  to  continue  the  work  on  it. 


344 


O.  W  hat  building  was  that  ?  A.  The  new  building  for  white 
women. 

Q.  How  about  other  repairs?  What  are  their  instructions  as  to 
other  repairs?  A.  I  don’t  remember  any  at  all.  There  might  have 
been,  but  I  don’t  remember. 

Q.  This  was  the  women's  department?  Any  others?  A.  The 
repairs  on  the  white  men’s  department. 

Q.  Wards,  or  other  parts  of  the  institution?  A.  Yes,  sir,  some 
with  regard  to  the  white  men’s  department. 

Q.  What  were  they?  A.  That  the  work  in  that  department  be 
commenced  and  pushed  as  rapidly  as  possible,  as  well  as  1  remem¬ 
ber.  The  minutes  are  in  the  other  room. 

Q.  Was  that  done?  A.  No,  it  was  not  done. 

Q.  Why  not?  A.  I  don’t  know. 

O.  Who  was  the  proper  official  to  carry  out  those  instructions? 
A.  I  don’t  know  that.  Those  are  merely  matters  of  opinion,  sir. 

Q.  You  were  secretary  of  the  board?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  how  did  you  give  those  instructions?  A.  Dr.  Thompson 
was  acting  as  Superintendent  at  the  time,  and  he  understood  the 
instructions,  and  my  recollection  is  that  1  spoke  to  Dr.  Babcock 
about  it  after  his  return. 

Q.  What  statement  did  you  make  to  Dr.  Babcock  at  that  time, 
Mr.  Bunch?  A.  I  told  him  the  board  had  recommended  that  the 
work  on  the  white  male  wards  take  precedence  of  all  other  work 
as  far  as  it  could  possibly  be  done. 

O.  Did  the  Board  of  Regents  themselves  decide  that  there  would 
be  no  further  general  repair  work  done?  A.  They  decided  that 
there  would  be  no  improvements,  but,  of  course,  the  repairs  would 
have  to  be  done  when  it  was  necessary.  They  are  going  on  all 
the  time.  There  are  certain  repairs  which  are  obliged  to  be  done. 

Q.  Were  the  repairs  at  the  Superintendent’s  residence  done  after 
that?  A.  Those  were  done  previous  to  that,  and  they  were  done 
at  my  instance.  I  reported  to  the  Board  of  Regents,  I  suppose, 
two  and  a  half  years  ago,  I  reported  that  all  the  residences  ought 
to  be  painted,  repainted,  and  Dr.  Thompson’s  residence  was  repainted 
first  on  account  of  his  daughter’s  marriage  and  Dr.  Babcock’s  and 
the  one  I  am  occupying  was  never  reached.  When  Dr.  Babcock 
was  sick  two  years  ago  last  May,  Dr.  Taylor  wrote  me  word,  and 
asked  me  to  push  the  repairs  on  Dr.  Babcock’s  house  while  he  was 
off  on  his  vacation,  but  I  was  taken  sick  in  the  meantime  and  could 
not  do  it.  When  he  was  off  on  his  vacation  last  summer  I  wrote  to 


345 


Mr.  Gooding  that  it  was  necessary  to  repair  the  house  as  it  was 
leaking  badly,  ruining  the  halls,  and  that  the  repairs  should  be  made 
immediately,  and  he  wrote  me  a  letter  and  told  me  he  would  give  me 
his  authority  to  proceed  with  the  work. 

Q.  Those  repairs  on  the  Superintendent's  residence  were  made 
in  his  absence  on  the  initiative  of  yourself  and  the  Board  of  Regents? 
A.  Yes,  sir.  I  am  responsible  for  that. 

Q.  Previous  to  this  work,  was  there  any  other  work  ?  A.  Previous 
to  that,  when  I  went  to  Dr.  Babcock,  he  objected  to  it,  and  when 
he  came  home  he  did  not  like  it  because  I  had  done  the  work  on 
his  residence. 

Q.  We  cannot  see  why  it  was  that  the  orders  that  the  white 
men’s  department  be  repaired  were  not  carried  out.  Why  was 
that?  A.  I  can  give  you  just  one  reason.  Two  or  three  men  can 
get  together  in  conference  and  give  more  orders  in  half  an  hour 
than  can  be  carried  out  in  six  months. 

0.  You  don’t  think  it  was  practicable  to  carry  it  out  last  fall  ?  A. 
Certainly  not,  if  they  were  going  to  continue  the  work  on  the 
Superintendent’s  dwelling.  They  were  then  at  work  on  that. 

Q.  What  time  of  the  year  did  the  Board  of  Regents  order  that 
work  to  be  done  on  the  white  men’s  wards?  A.  It  must  have  been 
in  July  or  August  of  last  year. 

Q.  And  the  work  they  then  had  on  hand  was  so  great  that  it 
was  not  possible?  A.  It  was  just  in  such  condition  that  they  could 
not  well  turn  loose. 

Dr.  Sawyer — I  suppose  this  order  meajit  when  they  finished  up 
what  they  were  then  working  on?  A.  It  was  to  have  precedence 
over  all  other  work,  and  this  work  was  already  in  progress  and 
nearly  completed. 

Mr.  Hardin — That  order  was  made  in  July  or  August.  Was 
the  Superintendent  at  home  at  that  time?  A.  No,  it  was  in  his 
absence. 

Q.  What  time  did  he  return?  A.  He  returned  some  time  about 
the  middle  of  September.  I  don’t  recollect  the  date. 

0.  You  informed  him  when  he  returned?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  Some  time  in  September  or  October?  A.  It  was  in  a  conversa¬ 
tion  I  had  with  him  that  I  told  him  they  had  ordered  these  things,  but, 
as  I  tell  you,  this  other  work  was  in  progress  and  nearing  comple¬ 
tion  at  that  time. 

’  Mr.  Bates — You  say  you  rang  up  the  Comptroller-General’s  office, 
and  gave  him  the  amounts  necessary  to  be  appropriated  for  the 


346 


institution?  Do  you  remember  what  amount  it  was  that  you  gave 
him.  What  amount  did  you  give  him  for  the  maintenance  and  sup¬ 
port?  A.  1  think  it  was  $170,000.00,  may  be  it  was  $180,000.00, 
because  I  cannot  keep  those  amounts  in  my  mind.  They  gave  us  the 
full  amount  we  asked  for. 

Q.  They  gave  you  the  full  amount?  A.  I  think  they  did. 

Q.  They  did  not  give  you  $170,000.00  for  maintenance  and  sup¬ 
port?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  three  thousand  dollars  for  the  Superintenden’ts  salary? 
A.  That  is  not  given  in  by  me.  We  don’t  ask  for  that.  That  does 
not  come  through  my  office  at  all. 

Q.  You  know  that  was  appropriated,  don’t  you?  A.  I  saw  it 
through  the  newspapers.  I  had  no  official  advice. 

Q.  Twelve  hundred  for  the  Regents?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Do  you  remember  the  amount  that  was  asked  for  for  building 
and  repairs?  A.  Thirty  thousand  dollars,  I  think,  was  asked  for 
for  building  and  repairs. 

Q.  Last  year?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  you  asked  for  thirty  thousand  dollars  in  order  to  repair 
the  institution  ?  A.  We  made  that  request  for  the  next  year. 

0.  And  they  gave  you  five  thousand?  A.  The  House,  as  well 
as  I  remember,  cut  it  all  out,  but  later  five  thousand  was  allowed. 
And  then  there  was  twrenty-five  hundred  dollars  asked  for  for  fur¬ 
nishing  the  new  building,  and  that  was  not  appropriated. 

0.  You  are  pretty  sure  you  asked  for  that?  A.  I  am  quite  sure 
of  that. 

Mr.  Glenn— Did  we  not,  at  a  meeting  of  the  Board  of  Reg'ents, 
issue  an  order  again  that  the  first  work  in  the  way  of  repairs  be 
on  that  white  men’s  department?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Carey— What  was  the  net  income  from  the  farm  last  year 
of  that  twenty  thousand  dollars  you  testified  to,  after  paying 
expenses?  A.  The  expenses  were  taken  out,  and  that  is  the  net 
income  I  gave.  We  are  charged  up  with  everything,  feed  on  hand 
and  everything,  and  credited  with  what  we  had  furnished  to  the 
institution  and  sold  off  the  farm,  and  what  was  remaining  on  hand 
at  the  end  of  the  year. 

Dr.  Dick — Did  the  Legislature  ever  fail  to  give  you  what  you 
asked  for  for  support  and  maintenance?  A.  I  don’t  know  very 
much  about  what  they  did.  We  usually  get  it.  I  have  been  told 
that  we  were  always  asked  if  we  could  get  along  on  less.  The 
consequence  is,  that  the  Board  of  Regents — I  get  this  from  the 


347 


Board  of  Regents  and  the  Superintendent,  in  their  meetings  here- — 
I  don’t  think  you  ever  saw  me  in  one  of  the  Houses — I  never  bother 
down  there — I  have  not  for  several  years — in  the  discussions  over  the 
matter  in  the  board  meetings,  they  decided  that  it  was  the  best 
policy  for  this  institution  to  ask  for  absolute  necessities.  If  they 
asked  for  more,  the  chances  would  be  that  they  would  not  get  it, 
and  it  was  better  to  ask  for  absolute  necessities  only. 

Dr.  Sawyer — About  that  five  thousand  dollars  that  the  House  cut 
you  out  of,  and  the  Senate  being  a  little  further  removed  from  the 
people,  gave  you.  Have  you  any  of  that  on  hand  now?  A.  No, 
we  have  a  deficit  in  that  department. 

Q.  That  five  thousand  dollars  was  used  in  repairs?  A.  Yes,  sir, 
in  buildings  and  repairs.  We  have  a  regular  report  of  the  building 
and  repair  work. 

Q.  The  Senate  gave  you  that  which  the  House  cut  out,  being  a 
little  further  removed,  they  having  cut  it  from  ten  thousand  dollars, 
is  that  right?  A.  For  building  and  repairs  they  asked  for  thirty 
thousand  dollars. 

Q.  Dr.  Babcock  can  answer  those  questions.  He  was  before  the 
committees?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  was  not  before  the  committee  at  all. 

The  Chairman — What  repairs  was  that  five  thousand  dollars  for? 
A.  Everything  that  comes  in  the  way  of  improvements  or  repairs. 
We  get  the  labor  in  the  mechanical  department  and  run  over  the 
bills  and  take  out  whatever  we  think  is  used  for  building  and  repairs, 
for  instance,  ordinarily  lumber,  lime  and  cement,  glass,  putty,  etc., 
and  all  those  sort  of  things. 

Q.  This  five  thousand  dollars  has  been  expended  in  general 
repairs?  A.  General  repairs  and  improvements,  I  suppose,  includ¬ 
ing  cement  walks  and  things  of  that  sort. 

0.  All  repairs  of  the  institution?  A.  Yes,  and  change  of  sewers. 
They  come  in,  too.  We  asked  for  five  thousand  dollars  for  the 
completion  of  this  water  main,  and  we  did  not  get  it,  as  I  remember. 
I  don’t  remember  any  other  appropriation  that  we  asked  for. 

Mr.  Sawyer — I  would  like  for  Mr.  Bunch  to  get  that  a  little 
clearer.  It  was  brought  out  which  work  had  priority  over  other 
work.  There  was  an  order  made  by  the  Board  of  Regents,  and,  as 
I  understand  it,  because  the  work  you  had  commenced  was  not 
completed,  you  could  not  take  up  the  work  on  the  white  male  wards  ? 
A.  That  was  my  understanding. 

O.  And  this  work  you  did  on  the  Superintendent’s  residence  was 


348 


just  under  the  head  of  incidental  work?  A.  It  was  repainted  and 
recovered  prior  to  this  order  of  the  board. 

Q.  In  other  words,  there  was  no  disposition  on  the  part  of  the 
management  to  fix  up  the  Superintendent's  residence  at  the  expense 
of  this  department?  A.  I  am  personally  responsible  for  any  work 
done  on  that.  It  was  unsanitary.  The  gutters  were  rotten  and 
the  shingles  were  rotten,  and  the  whole  thing  was  in  bad  shape. 

0.  You  regarded  that  as  incidental  necessary  repairs?  A.  I 
want  to  say  that  if  Dr.  Babcock  had  been  here  he  would  have 
objected,  and  I  did  it  because  it  was  necessary  that  it  be  done. 

Q.  What  was  the  character  of  the  work  ordered  to  be  on  the 
white  male  wards?  A.  The  floors  were  to  be  renewed,  and  painting 
was  to  be  done  after  the  floors  were  renewed. 

Q.  The  floors  the  first  thing?  A.  Yes,  sir,  because  the  walls  would 
be  defaced  again. 

Q.  Yesterday,  that  was  yesterday,  wasn’t  it?  A.  Directed  again 
yesterday.  It  was  directed  before  in  July  or  August  of  last  year. 

Mr.  Harrison — Do  you  know  anything  about  the  boiler  plant 
here?  A.  O,  yes,  sir,  1  know  something,  but  I  am  not  a  boiler  man, 
you  know. 

Q.  Have  you  insurance  on  the  boilers?  A.  On  two,  I  think,  and 
one  without  insurance. 

Q.  Why  is  the  other  without  insurance?  A.  They  refused  to 
insure  it. 

Q.  In  other  words,  it  has  been  condemned?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  horse-power  you  have  got?  A.  No. 

Q.  Is  it  sufficient?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Is  your  boiler  capacity  sufficient  to  meet  the  ordinary  demands 
of  the  institution?  A.  Our  boiler  capacity  is  run  to  its  limit  to  do 
the  cooking,  run  the  laundry,  and  the  mill  and  things  of  that  sort, 
and  the  planing  machines.  Whenever  we  undertake  to  run  those 
things  we  have  always  got  to  shut  off  one  or  two  of  the  depart¬ 
ments.  We  cannot  run  all  at  the  same  time  with  the  power  we 
have  got. 

Q.  In  other  words,  it  is  inefficient  ?  A.  Very  much  so.  That  was 
reported  eighteen  years  ago  really. 

Q.  Although  you  are  not  a  boiler  man,  you  are  a  practical  man. 
W'oud  it  not  be  a  necessity  to  have  a  new  battery  of  boilers  here? 
A.  I  feel  so.  I  have  felt  so  for  a  long  time  myself,  and  the  board 
was  asked  to  bring  the  matter  up,  and  they  felt  that  they  were  not 
in  shape  to  take  that  matter  up. 


349 


Q.  If  you  had  the  necessary  horsepower  and  boiler  capacity  you 
could  put  hot  water  in  the  white  male  wards  where  there  is  com¬ 
plaint  of  a  lack  of  water?  A.  My  understanding  is  that  that  water 
is  used  for  bathing  purposes  now — the  water  from  the  boilers 
is  not  used  for  bathing  purposes  in  the  white  male  wards.  I  don't 
know  what  the  plans  are,  really — that  is  my  understanding. 

Q.  It  would  be  possible  by  putting  drums  over  the  boilers  to  have 
that  water?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Wouldn't  it  be  cheaper  and  more  economical  from  a  business 
standpoint  than  to  use  stoves  and  things  of  that  sort  ?  A.  Cer¬ 
tainly  a  saving  of  fuel. 

Q.  Really  to  repair  them  would  be  a  farce?  A.  I  think  so. 

Q.  Have  you  got  sufficient  boiler  house  to  keep  your  boilers  in? 
A.  The  boiler  house  might  be  sufficient,  but  I  don’t  think  it  should 
be  located  there. 

Q.  I  would  be  glad  if  you  would  give  us  an  idea  of  that,  Mr. 
Bunch?  A.  My  idea  is,  although  I  don’t  know  about  boilers  or 
anything  of  that  kind,  but  my  idea  is,  from  a  mechanical  engineer's 
standpoint,  that  a  boiler  should  always  be  set  low  enough  so  that 
the  exhaust  steam  would  go  back  into  the  boiler,  and  it  would 
thereby  save  a  good  deal  of  fuel.  That  would  go  back  as  hot  water, 
and  it  would  save  considerable  fuel  in  keeping  up  the  boilers,  and 
it  would  keep  the  boilers  at  a  more  uniform  temperature. 

Q.  Would  it  be  possible  to  locate  the  boiler  more  centrally  or 
properly?  A.  I  am  inclined  to  think  that  a  proper  location  would 
be  lower  dowm  the  hall.  There  should  be  an  excavation  made  so 
that  all  the  exhaust  steam  would  come  back,  would  gravitate 
back  into-  the  boiler. 

Mr.  Sawyer — How  long  had  that  residence  been  in  that  condi¬ 
tion?  How  long  had  it  needed  repairs?  A.  The  roof  was  in  bad 
condition  when  Dr.  Babcock  occupied  it.  It  must  have  been — I  don't 
know — about,  I  suppose,  six  or  eight  years  ago,  may  be  longer 
than  that. 

Q.  It  had  needed  repairs  for  some  time?  A.  It  was  needing 
repairs  when  the  property  was  bought,  but  we  were  very  much 
cramped  up  for  money  to  pay  for  this  property,  and  did  not  feel 
that  we  could  afford  to  go  into  those  repairs. 

Q.  Just  now  a  question  was  asked  you  about  putting  some  kind 
of  drum  over  these  boilers  and  sending  steam  round  through  the 
wards,  and  that  it  would  be  cheaper  than  the  present  arrangement, 
cheaper  and  more  businesslike  in  the  saving  of  fuel?  A.  I  don’t 


350 


know  anything  about  the  drum  arrangement  or  anything  of  that 
sort,  I  am  just  saying  that  everybody  has  a  view  about  these  things, 
and  that  is  my  opinion  without  professing  to  know  anything  about 
it  at  all,  but  it  does  look  to  me  like  when  you  centralize  these  things 
it  would  be  cheaper. 

Q.  Why  has  it  not  been  done?  A.  We  haven’t  got  the  boiler 
capacity.  The  boilers  have  all  been  overloaded. 

Mr.  Harrison — With  reference  to  your  present  boilers  you  have 
talked,  I  believe,  to  experts  on  that  line  and  have  their  opinions  on 
the  subject,  and  isn't  it  an  economic  waste  of  the  consumption  of  fuel 
with  these  boilers  as  used  at  present?  A.  I  should  think  so.  I  don’t 
know  exactly,  as  I  told  you,  it  has  always  appeared  to  me  that  if  we 
had  larger  boilers  we  could  save  some  fuel.  I  don’t  know  just  how 
much. 

0.  I  believe  that  recommendation  was  made  eighteen  years  ago? 
A.  The  old  man  who  had  charge  of  the  mechanical  department 
made  a  recommendation  to  that  effect  that  the  smaller  boilers  be  dis¬ 
posed  of,  and  larger  ones  bought  here  soon  after  I  came  here. 

Q.  I  was  getting  my  information  from  the  Superintendent’s 
report?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  On  the  whole  you  think  the  present  boiler  system  is  an 
economic  waste?  A.  Yes,  I  certainly  do. 

Mr.  Sawyer — That  question  reverts  back  to  the  question,  if  you 
had  the  money  to  make  these  changes  in  these  conditions,  you 
would  do  so?  You  are  not  an  expert,  but  if  you  had  the  money 
there  are  many  things  you  would  put  in  that  you  have  not  on  that 
account?  A.  That  is  my  opinion,  but  not  an  expert  opinion  at  all. 
If  it  were  my  opinion  might  have  been  different.  I  have  not 
studied  this  subject  at  all  because  it  is  not  in  my  line. 

Mr.  Henry  P.  Earle,  white,  being  duly  sworn,  testified  as  fol¬ 
lows  : 

Mr.  Carey — What  is  your  position  here  in  the  institution,  Mr. 
Earle?  A.  I  am  foreman  of  the  kitchen.  I  believe  they  call  it  that 
here. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  here?  A.  Three  years  the  third  day 
of  next  month. 

Q.  Where  did  you  come  from?  A.  From  the  navy. 

Q.  The  United  States  Navy?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  were  you  doing  in  the  navy?  A.  Fireman. 


35i 


Q.  Did  you  have  much  experience  in  running  a  kitchen  in  the 
navy  ?  A.  I  had  my  first  experience  here. 

Q.  Here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  help  have  you  in  the  kitchen  ?  A.  I  have  eight 
hired  people. 

Q.  White  or  colored?  A.  Colored. 

Q.  All  colored?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Eight?  A.  Yes,  sir,  except  the  man  that  helps  me.  He  is 
white.  That  makes  nine. 

Q.  That  are  interested  in  the  cooking?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  do  the  cooking?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  are  not  a  practical  cook  yourself?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  patients  have  you  in  there  helping  you?  A.  I 
have  about  seven  now. 

Q.  Seven?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  class  of  patients  are  they?  A.  Colored  male  patients, 
a  very  good  class  of  patients. 

Q.  Do  they  keep  themselves  clean?  A.  Yes,  sir,  practically 

clean. 

Q.  You  get  them  out  of  Dr.  Griffin’s  department?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  selects  them?  A.  Mr.  Anson  and  Dr.  Griffin. 

Q.  And  send  them  over  to  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  There  is  a  good  deal  of  complaint  about  the  cooking,  with 
those  patients  there.  How  do  you  account  for  the  cooking  not 
being  any  better  than  it  is?  A.  There  are  several  reasons.  One  is 
that  we  are  cooking  with  steam.  I  don’t  think  cooking  can  be  done 
as  well  with  steam,  and  another  reason  is  that  we  haven't  got  enough 
room.  We  haven’t  sufficient  cooks,  and  we  haven’t  room  in  which 
to  work.  We  have  no  room  for  our  cooks,  if  we  had  more  of  them. 

Q.  How  many  people  do  you  cook  for  in  there?  A.  We  are  cook¬ 
ing  for  about  a  thousand  people,  I  should  say. 

Q.  About  a  thousand?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  cooks  do  you  think  are  needed  in  there?  A.  If 
we  had  room  to  work  them  we  ought  to  have  eight  cooks  anyway. 
What  we  have  now  are  not  all  cooks.  Several  are  helping  who 
are  not. 

Q.  You  ought  to  have  eight  practical  cooks?  A.  Yes,  sir,  to  do 
nothing  else  but  cook. 

O.  Patients  or  ousiders?  A.  They  should  be  good  outside  help. 

Q.  These  negroes  that  you  work  in  there,  where  do  you  get 
them?  A.  Just  wherever  we  can  out  of  town  here. 


352 


Q.  Have  you  got  them  divided  out,  each  man  to  have  his  special 
work?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  One  for  meats?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  One  for  bread?  A.  Yes,  sir,  and  the  meat  cook  cooks  a  lot 

of  vegetables  and  hominy  and  rice. 

Q.  Do  they  know  how  to  cook  rice  in  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  How  do  they  come  to  say  it  is  not  in  good  shape  sometirms? 

A.  As  1  stated,  it  is  cooked  by  steam,  and  in  large  quantities. 

O.  Does  steam  cooking  have  that  effect?  A.  It  has  the  effect 
that  it  is  not  cooked  as  well  as  it  would  by  other  processes,  and  it  is 
cooked  in  too  large  quantities. 

Q.  What  is  the  grade  of  it?  A.  Very  fair  rice. 

0.  What  size  quantities?  A.  The  pot  holds  about  thirty-five  or 
forty  gallons. 

Q.  Gallons?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  attribute  the  rice  not  being  palatable  to  the  steam 
cooking  and  the  large  quantities?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  wrould  you  cure  the  large  quantity  part  of  it?  You 
would  have  to  cook  it  that  way?  A.  In  the  conditions  as  we  have 
them,  our  facilities  compel  us  to  do  it. 

Q.  How  much  larger  do  you  think  the  kitchen  ought  to  be? 
A.  It  ought  to  be  any  way  three  times  as  large  as  it  is. 

Q.  Three  times?  A.  Yes,  sir,  any  way. 

O.  If  you  had  a  kitchen  of  that  capacity,  what  would  you  use 
instead  of  steam?  A.  We  would  install  pots  with  wood  or  coal. 

Q.  Ranges?  A.  Yes,  sir,  cook  on  ranges. 

Q.  Use  coal?  A.  Coal  or  wood,  either  one. 

0.  Would  you  use  smaller  vessels?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  could  make  the  food  better  with  that?  A.  Yes,  sir,  decid¬ 
edly  better. 

Q.  What  is  the  objection  to  the  hominy  that  you  cannot  get  that 
in  good  shape?  A.  The  same  objection. 

Q.  Do  you  cook  it  in  large  quantities?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  When  it  is  turned  over  to  you  from  the  farm  it  is  in  good 
condition?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Good  stuff?  A.  I  consider  it  good. 

Q.  Is  it  ground  on  the  mill  here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Meal  and  grits?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Ground  out  of  good  corn?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Turned  over  to  you  fresh?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  How  about  the  corn  bread?  What  is  the  trouble  about 


353 


cooking  the  corn  bread?  A.  I  don’t  see  but  what  our  corn  bread 
is  as  good  as  it  can  be  made  for  plain  corn  bread. 

Q.  Have  you  a  special  cook  that  cooks  that?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  cook  that  in  the  furnaces,  I  suppose?  A.  In  the  range. 

Q.  Do  you  use  steam  for  the  cooking  of  that  too?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  How  about  the  lightbread,  what  do  you  cook  that  in  ?  A.  The 
bakers  cook  that. 

Q.  Is  that  under  you  ?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Outside  of  your  department?  A.  Yes,  sir,  outside  of  my 
department. 

Q.  The  vegetables,  they  are  all  right  if  they  are  steam-cooked? 
A.  The  vegetables  could  be  cooked  better  if  they  were  cooked  in 
smaller  quantities. 

Q.  They  are  fresh  when  they  come  from  the  farm?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  there  is  anything  about  it  that  makes  the  vegetables  unpala¬ 
table,  it  happens  after  they  get  in  the  kitchen,  is  that  right?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  much  complaint  amongst  the  patients  about  the  cook¬ 
ing?  A.  I  hear  complaints  from  time  to  time. 

Q.  What  is  the  nature  of  the  complaints  they  make  against  you  ? 
Do  they  claim  that  it  is  raw?  A.  Yes,  sir,  sometimes. 

Q.  How  about  that?  Is  there  any  reason  for  its  not  being  done? 
A.  Any  reason  for  not  getting  it  done?  I  consider  it  done.  We 
cook  hominy  two  and  a  half  or  three  hours,  and  it  ought  to  be  done. 

Q.  How  long  do  you  cook  rice?  A.  I  don’t  think  I  have  heard 
any  complaint  about  the  rice  not  being  done. 

Q.  The  complaint  seems  to  be  that  the  rice  is  gluey,  sticky  and 
gluey?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  cause  of  that,  and  that  it  seems  to  have  a  blue 
appearance?  A.  Blue  appearance?  That  does  not  come  very  often. 

Q.  What  is  the  cause  of  it  when  it  does  come?  A.  It  gets  gluey 
and  sticky — that  will  happen  when  it  comes  in  large  quantities. 
Once  in  a  wdiile  we  get  a  sack  in  a  large  quantity. 

Q.  What  is  the  cause  of  the  blue  rice?  You  don’t  mean  that  it  is 
in  the  cooking?  A.  That  is  very  seldom. 

Q.  That  blue  appearance  of  the  cooked  rice  does  not  occur  except 
when  you  get  a  sack  of  the  blue  rice.  Is  that  right,  Mr.  Earle?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  does  not  happen  with  your  good  rice?  A.  Not  with  first- 
class  rice. 

Q.  Your  coffee,  who  makes  that?  A.  A  patient  makes  it. 


23— \. 


354 


Q.  A  patient  cooks  the  coffee?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  A  man?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Does  he  know  how?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  they  serve  pretty  good  coffee  in  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  strong  do  you  make  it?  A.  Strong  enough  to  suit  mt, 
very  good  coffee,  I  call  it. 

Q.  You  drink  it  yourself?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  use  a  good  brand  of  coffee?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  times  do  you  make  coffee  for  them?  A.  I  make 
coffee  once  in  a  large  urn,  and  make  coffee  for  dinner  on  the  range 
in  small  quantities. 

Q.  You  can  make  that  all  right  by  the  steam  process?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Do  you  give  them  coffee  for  breakfast  and  supper,  too?  A. 
Tea  for  supper  principally.  A  few  patients  get  coffee  besides. 

Q.  Who  makes  the  tea,  the  same  cook?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  they  give  them  good  tea?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  is  that  patient?  A.  His  name  is  Henry.  I  don’t  know  his 
last  name. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  long  they  have  had  him  in  there?  A.  He 
has  been  here  ever  since  I  have  been  here. 

Q.  Is  he  a  pretty  good  negro?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Clean?  A.  Yes,  sir,  he  is  clean,  very  clean. 

Q.  Do  you  have  any  trouble  about  making  the  patients  in  there 
clean  and  keeping  clean?  A.  I  send  them  to  the  wards  and  have 
them  washed. 

Q.  In  handling  the  food  do  they  keep  their  hands  clean?  A.  Yes, 
sir.  The  patients  don’t  oft£n  handle  the  food,  only  one  or  two  once 
in  a  while. 

Q.  Who  does  the  handling?  A.  The  cooks. 

Q.  The  hired  cooks?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  pay  the  cooks?  A.  Eighteen  dollars  a 
month. 

Q.  Who  makes  the  soup  for  you?  A.  George  Bailey. 

Q.  Who  is  he?  A.  A  patient. 

Q.  Does  he  know  how  to  make  soup?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  serves  pretty  good  soup?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

'  0.  What  kind  of  soup?  A.  Tomato  soup. 

Q.  Tomato?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  put  in  it?  Beef?  A.  Yes,  sir,  make  tomato  soup 
on  beef  days. 


355 


Q.  When  it  is  cooked  and  ready  to  serve  to  the  patients,  who 
takes  charge  of  it?  Is  it  still  under  you?  A.  No,  sir,  we  deliver  it 
to  the  mess  hall.  We  deliver  it  tO'  the  dumb  waiter,  and  it  goes  to 
the  mess  hall  and  is  served.  Who  serves  it  I  don't  know. 

Q.  It  goes  up  in  large  quantities?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  it  is  taken  out  and  served?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  takes  it  out  of  the  dumb  waiter  and  serves  it?  A.  I 
suppose  the  nurses.  I  don’t  know  anything  about  that  department. 

Q.  That  is  out  of  your  department?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  never  gone  in  and  seen  them  eating?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Your  jurisdiction  is  over  the  kitchen?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Anywhere  else?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  nothing  to  do  with  the  loaf  bread?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  done  by  the  baker?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  is  he  ?  A.  Horace  Lawrence,  I  believe. 

Q.  Does  it  go  into  the  kitchen  at  all?  A.  Yes,  sir,  served  from 
the  kitchen. 

Q.  It  goes  up  in  your  dumb  waiter  to  the  mess  halls?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  form  is  it  in  when  it  leaves  you?  A.  Loaf. 

Q.  You  send  it  up  in  that  way?  A.  To  the  female  side  that  way. 
On  the  male  side  we  always  cut  it. 

Q.  Cut  it  in  the  kitchen  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  it  goes  up  with  the  other  food  on  the  dumb  waiter,  is 
that  right?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  a  judge  of  lightbread?  A,  I  think  so. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  of  the  lightbread?  A.  It  is  very  good 
lightbread. 

Q.  Is  it  the  same  bread  that  you  serve  throughout  the  institution? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  got  any  authority  over  anything  except  the  kitchen  ? 
A.  No,  sir,  except  the  cooling  of  the  milk. 

0.  The  cooling  of  the  milk?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  do  with  that?  A.  Strain  it,  and  run  it  over  a 
drum  with  ice  water  in  it  and  cool  it  and  set  it  in  the  milk  house. 

Q.  That  is  when  it  comes  from  the  dairy?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  it  comes  from  the  dairy  it  comes  to  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  take  it  out  and  strain  it?  A.  I  don’t  do  it  myself. 

Q.  You  have  it  done?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  does  that  ?  A.  Ben  Inabnett. 

Q.  A  patient?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  White  man?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


356 


Q.  Clean?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  does  he  come  from,  out  of  Dr.  Thompson’s  depart¬ 
ment?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  I  understand  it,  when  it  is  brought  over  from  the  dairy  he 
strains  the  milk?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  see  that  process  going  on?  A.  No,  sir,  I  can’t  see  it 
going  on  every  day.  I  see  it  from  day  to  day. 

Q.  Do  you  see  it  when  it  first  comes  up  ?  A.  My  partner  attends 
to  that,  but  I  see  it  from  day  to  day,  from  time  to  time. 

Q.  How  does  it  look  when  you  see  it?  A.  In  good  condition. 

Q.  Do  you  discover  any  filth  in  it?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  In  straining  it  do  you  discover  any  filth?  A.  Very  little. 

Q.  If  there  was  any  filth  in  it,  would  it  pass  out  or  remain?  A. 
It  would  be  strained  out. 

Q.  When  you  finish  straining  it  where  does  it  go?  A.  Put  it  in 
cans,  and  put  it  in  the  ice  house,  in  the  refrigerator. 

Q.  That  is  the  sweet  milk?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  do  you  serve  it  ?  A.  Serve  the  morning  milk  for  dinner 
and  supper. 

Q.  And  the  night?  A.  For  breakfast  next  morning. 

Q.  You  give  them  milk  three  times  a  day?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Coffee  once?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  tea  once?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  give  all  the  patients  milk?  A.  No,  sir,  I  don’t  think 
all  get  it.  We  divide  it  up  and  send  it  up  in  large  quantities,  in 
large  cans,  and  from  them  it  is  distributed  around.  I  could  not  say 
what  becomes  of  it  after  that. 

Q.  The  milk  is  served  from  the  ice  house?  A.  Yes,  sir.  It  comes 
to  the  kitchen  and  is  served  from  there. 

Q.  Served  cold?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  How  do  you  send  it  up  in  that  dumb  waiter  upstairs,  in 
pitchers  or  glasses?  A.  In  cans,  pour  it  into  smaller  cans. 

Q.  Who  does  that?  A.  I  do — either  myself  or  my  assistant. 

Q.  What  is  the  appearance  of  the  milk  when  you  take  it  out  of 
the  receiving  cans?  A.  Good. 

Q.  Is  there  any  filth  in  it  that  you  can  discover  then?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  cold?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  You  pour  it  into  smaller  cans?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  And  send  it  up  in  the  dumb  waiter?  A.  Yes.  sir. 

Q.  When  it  gets  there,  who  serves  it  ?  A.  I  could  not  tell  you 
that. 


357 


Q.  How  about  your  kitchen  down  there?  Do  you  make  your 
patients  and  hired  help  keep  it  clean?  A.  We  scrape  the  kitchen 
twice  a  day. 

Q.  Who  does  the  scraping?  A.  The  hired  help  and  the  patients. 

Q.  They  do  it  under  your  direction?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  about  cleaning  the  vessels  ?  A.  The  hired  help  and  the 
patients  do  that. 

Q.  Are  you  particular  to  have  that  done?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  How  about  your  dishrags  and  things  of  that  kind,  how  are  they 
kept?  A.  They  are  kept  clean.  New  ones  are  used  as  soon  as  one 

gets  filthy. 

Q.  Where  do  you  get  them  from?  A.  We  wash  flour  sacks,  and 
use  the  flour  sacks  as  dishrags. 

Q.  When  they  get  filthy  what  do  you  do  with  them?  A.  We  burn 
them  up. 

Q.  Do  you  ever  have  them  washed?  A.  Every  man  takes  care 
of  his  own  dishcloths. 

Q.  Every  man  washes  his  own  cloths?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  often  does  he  wash  them?  A.  Every  time  he  washes 
dishes. 

O.  He  washes  them  in  the  kitchen?  These  same  men  that  wait 
on  you  in  the  kitchen,  do  they  wash  the  dishes?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  washer  have  you  got?  Do  you  wash  with  the 
hands?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  kind  of  dishes  do  you  use?  A.  Tin  dishes. 

Q.  Tin  plates?  A.  We  don’t  use  any  plates.  We  send  it  up  in 
pans  and  wooden  trays. 

Q.  In  large  vessels?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  All  the  food?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Take  it  up  in  pans?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Your  coffee?  A.  In  coffee  pots. 

Q.  And  the  tea?  A.  In  teapots. 

Q.  It  is  poured  out  after  it  gets  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bates — Do  you  ever  allow  any  other  patients  to  go  into  your 
kitchen  except  those  that  do  the  cooking?  A.  They  can  come  in 
three  times  a  day  to  carry  food  to  the  dining  room  of  the  Parker 
building. 

Q.  Do  you  allow  any  one  in  the  kitchen  except  those  doing  the 
cooking  and  the  serving  of  the  food?  A.  Once  in  a  while  one 
comes  in. 

Q.  I  see  that  some  statement  has  been  made  here  that  the  male 


358 


patients  from  the  negro  wards  come  through  the  kitchen  around 
there  while  the  cooking  is  going  on,  and  that  you  allow  them  to  do 
so  ?  A.  No,  sir,  with  the  exception,  as  I  say — Perry  Stevens  brings 
the  patients  there  in  the  morning — we  have  them  to  help  cut  the 
bread,  and  he  brings  in  the  patients  to  help  to  cut  the  bread. 

Q.  What  do  they  pay  you?  A.  Forty-five  dollars  a  month. 

Q.  You  get  board  in  addition  to  that?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  eat  from  the  kitchen  yourself?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Dr.  Ray — You  eat  the  same  as  the  patients?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sawyer — Are  you  married?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  children  ?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Does  your  wife  eat  there  with  you?  A.  No,  sir,  she  lives  at 
home. 

Q.  These  milk  cans,  have  they  covers?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Regular  milk  cans?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  rice  that  you  were  speaking  about.  You  said  you  were 
not  an  expert  cook,  but  some  people  like  rice  cooked  differently 
from  others.  Some  like  it  dry  as  in  the  low  country,  and  some  like 
it  cooked  soft.  Are  there  complaints  along  that  line?  A.  Too 
soft  and  gluey. 

0.  Some  like  it  cooked  soft  and  others  dry  so  that  it  rattles  in 
the  plate  almost  like  dry  peas?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Would  not  the  water  make  a  difference  in  the  color  of  it? 
You  spoke  of  some  sort  of  blueish  tint?  A.  It  might. 

Q.  Where  does  your  water  come  from?  A.  The  city. 

Q.  Regular  city  water?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  same  water  all  the  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  said  you  had  about  seven  or  eight  hired  servants  in 
there,  cooks,  dishwashers  and  help?  A.  Generally. 

Q.  And  seven  or  eight  patients?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  if  you  had  more  room  and  did  not  have  to  cook 
with  steam,  and  had  more  hired  help,  that  you  could  cut  out  and  do 
away  with  most  of  these  little  complaints?  A.  I  could  make  it 
decidedly  better. 

Q.  Do  you  think  the  food  that  you  are  sending  up  to  the  wards 
is  proper  food  for  an  ordinary  person  to  have,  for  a  sane  person 
when  they  are  sick  ?  A.  I  would  think  so. 

Q.  You  think  it  is  pretty  well  prepared?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  consider  it  very  good  food,  and  wholesome  for  them? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Hardin— Is  it  possible  to  cook  a  large  quantity  of  rice  and 


359 


grits  to  a  uniform  standard  when  you  are  cooking  it  in  such  large 
quantities?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Some  rice  cooks  better  than  others?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  hominy  the  same  way,  I  suppose?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bates — Do  I  understand  you  to  say  that  you  cook  hominy  from 
two  and  a  half  to  three  hours?  A.  Yes,  sir,  and  sometimes  longer. 

Mr.  Bunch — Don’t  you  think  that  sometimes  the  cause  of  your 
hominy  here  being  sent  up  a  little  underdone  is  caused  by  a  lack  of 
steam,  that  it  is  due  to  the  fact  that  you  are  sometimes  short  of 
steam?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  were  not  here  before  this  new  water  system  was  put  in, 
were  you?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  did  not  have  charge  then?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  But  you  were  here  in  other  departments  and  know  that  before 
the  new  water  system  was  put  in,  that  the  water  was  frequently 
very  muddy?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  it  continued  after  this?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Of  course,  you  had  an  idea  of  it  some  years  before  you  went 
into  the  navy?  A.  Yes,  sir,  since  you  mentioned  it,  I  believe  it  was 
bad  once  in  a  while. 

Q.  You  remember  that  there  were  filters  put  there  to  filter  the 
water?  A.  At  what  time? 

Q.  When  the  water  was  muddy  at  times?  A.  I  think  not.  I  don’t 
think  there  was. 

The  Chairman — Who  directs  you  as  to  the  bill  of  fare,  Mr.  Earle? 
A.  Nobody  directs  me  at  all. 

Q.  You  have  a  certain  rule  that  you  go  by?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  that  written,  or  is  it  just  a  custom  that  you  go  by? 
A.  No,  sir,  I  came  there  under  Mr.  Herring,  and  I  learned  what  I 
know  under  him,  and  I  have  carried  it  along  with  the  same  bill  of 
fare  that  he  had  then.  I  never  have  had  any  written  bill  of  fare 
at  all. 

Mr.  Bunch — Mr.  Earle,  you  have  the  handling  of  the  fruits  that 
come  in  there  in  the  summer  time,  do  you  not  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  state  to  the  committee  about  the  quantities  of  fruit 
and  the  quality  that  comes  in  there  in  the  summer,  when  we  have 
any  fruit?  A.  The  quality  is  good,  and  the  quantity  is  more  than 
the  patients  consume. 

0.  What  kind  of  fruit  did  they  get?  A.  Apples,  peaches,  black¬ 
berries. 

Q.  Melons?  A.  Melons. 


360 

Q.  Where  did  you  get  the  melons  from?  A.  I  got  them  from 
Mr.  Bunch. 

Q.  While  there  is  no  written  menu,  or  anything  of  that  sort,  for 
the  meals,  you  have  general  instructions  by  which  you  know  about 
what  to  get  every  time,  and  to  vary  it  from  time  to  time,  do  you 
not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  consult  me  as  to  what  I  have  in  the  store,  and  you  get 
pretty  much  what  I  have  there,  don’t  you,  from  time  to  time?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  sometimes  suggest  things  that  you  think  you  need? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman — You  have  eight  paid  cooks  now?  A.  Yes,  sir, 
eight  paid  helpers.  They  are  not  all  cooks,  though. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  had  them  there?  A.  I  have  had  seven 
since  December,  and  one  more  came  in  January. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  had  seven  patient  helpers?  A.  It  has  been 
about  two  weeks.  I  generally  have  a  few  more  than  that,  but  they 
have  run  down  now. 

Q.  That  is  really  more  than  you  have  room  for  as  it  is?  A.  We 
keep  them. 

Q.  Is  that  all  you  can  use?  A.  We  have  got  all  the  cooks  we  can 
possibly  use  in  the  kitchen  now. 

Mr.  Hardin — Do  you  keep  a  daily  record  of  the  number  of  pounds 
of  meat  and  flour  you  use?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Carey — What  do  you  do  with  that  record?  A.  I  have  it  on 
the  book. 

Q.  Do  you  make  any  report  to  anybody  of  it?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  just  keep  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  do  you  get  it  from — the  things  you  get?  A.  From  Mr. 
Bunch. 

Q.  He  gives  it  to  you  daily?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  What  kind  of  desserts  do  you  cook?  A.  Cook  pies  and  cakes. 

Q.  Fruits?  A.  Dried  fruits,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  works  that?  A.  We  have  a  cook  down  there  that  has 
been  a  baker,  and  we  have  him  to  cook  that. 

Q.  A  patient?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  A  hired  man?  A.  Yes,  sir,  a  hired  man. 

O.  Does  he  understand  how  to  cook  desserts  pretty  well,  Mr. 
Earle?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Bunch — You  stated  just  now  that  you  had  a  record  of  what 


you  got  there.  Is  there  any  other  record  kept  of  what  you  get  from 
the  storeroom  ?  A.  Only  the  record  that  you  keep,  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  another  question.  Do  you  put  up  any  pre¬ 
serves  or  jellies,  tomatoes,  or  anything,  and  preserve  them  for  winter 
use?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  About  what  quantities  do  you  put  up  ?  A.  I  put  up  about  two 
thousand  quarts  of  tomatoes  last  year,  and  up  to  last  week  1  haven't 
got  any  tomatoes  out  of  the  store  since  tomato  season  last  year. 

Mr.  Carey — Is  there  any  effort  to  prepare  food  for  sick  people? 
A.  We  have  a  woman  cook  that  prepares  that  food. 

Mr.  Sawyer — Separate  from  the  others?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  do  you  get  orders  for  the  preparation  of  food  for  sick 
patients?  A.  It  generally  comes  through  the  nurse  from  Dr. 
Thompson,  or  through  the  hall  girl  from  Miss  Fannie  Irwin. 

Q.  And  there  is  a  woman  that  prepares  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  Cook  eggs  in  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Does  she  know  how  to  cook  eggs  any  way?  A.  We  gen¬ 
erally  poach  the  eggs  for  the  sick. 

Q.  And  send  the  milk  to  them?  A.  We  send  the  milk  up  to  the 
hospital  wards,  and  they  distribute  it  from  there. 

Q.  This  woman  makes  a  specialty  of  preparing  food  for  the  sick? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sawyer — Is  that  done  in  the  same  kitchen?  A.  The  small 
kitchen,  just  this  side  of  the  big  kitchen. 

Q.  A  special  cook,  a  special  woman  cook,  to  prepare  special 
food  for  the  hospital  wards?  A.  The  sick  diet.  We  send  the  food 
generally  from  the  big  kitchen,  but  the  sick  diet  is  oat  meal  and 
eggs,  corn  starch  and  things  like  that,  are  prepared  by  this  woman, 
chicken  broth,  gruel,  etc. 

Q.  Orders  come  from  Miss  Irwin  over  here,  or  the  supervisor, 
or  Dr.  Thompson,  or  Mr.  Mitchell,  direct  to  the  kitchen?  A.  Yes, 

sir. 

Q.  You  then  separate  the  food  prepared  for  the  sick?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Mr.  Hardin — Your  department  is  not  the  only  cooking  depart¬ 
ment  they  have  in  the  institution?  A.  No,  sir. 

Dr.  J.  W.  Babcock,  being  duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows : 

Mr.  Carey — What  is  your  age  now?  A.  I  was  born  in  August, 
1856. 

O.  Where?  A.  At  Chester,  S.  C. 


362 


Q.  You  are  a  native  South  Carolinian?  A.  I  am,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  lived  here  all  your  life  in  this  State?  A.  I  lived  in 
Chester  until  I  was  eighteen  years  of  age.  At  that  time,  as  the 
negroes  had  all  the  educational  institutions,  I  took  the  advice  of  a 
friend  and  went  to  school  in  New  Hampshire,  expecting  to  be  there 
for  one  year. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  go  to  school  there?  A.  As  I  happened  to 
be  able  to  work  my  way  through  and  get  some  encouragement  in  the 
way  of  a  scholarship,  instead  of  staying  one  year,  I  remained  in  that 
school  and  then  went  through  Harvard  College. 

Q.  What  year  did  you  graduate?  A.  1882. 

Q.  Where  did  you  take  your  medical  training?  A.  In  Harvard 
Medical  School,  working  my  way  through  as  best  I  could.  While 
in  my  third  year  I  had  an  opportunity  to  do  some  work  in  an  asylum. 
As  I  did  not  very  well  know  how  I  was  to  pay  my  next  week’s  board 
I  went  to  w’ork  in  an  asylum  in  January,  1885. 

Q.  Where  was  that?  A.  The  asylum  was  then  in  the  city  of 
Summerville,  practically  a  part  of  Boston. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  work  in  that  institution?  A.  From  Jan¬ 
uary,  1885,  until  August,  1891.  The  first  year  I  was  an  interne, 
and  the  rest  of  the  time  I  was  second  assistant  physician. 

Q.  When  did  you  come  here?  A.  About  the  first  of  July,  1891, 
Governor  Tillman  informed  me  that  he  understood  I  was  expected 
to  be  in  Chester  on  vacation,  and  if  I  happened  to  be  down  in 
Chester,  he  would  like  to  have  me  come  to  Columbia  and  have  a 
talk  with  me.  So  I  came  down  here  and  saw  Governor  Tillman,  and 
he  offered  me  the  superintendency  of  this  institution. 

Q.  And  you  have  been  here  ever  since?  A.  I  came  here  for 
duty — that  was  about  the  first  of  July — and  I  came,  I  think,  about 
the  13th  of  August,  1891. 

Q.  What  special  training  had  you  had  in  this  class  of  work  before 
you  came  here?  A.  I  had  nearly  seven  years  in  a  private  asylum  in 
Summerville. 

0.  Asylum  for  the  insane?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  Of  the  State  of  Massachusetts?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  position  did  you  hold  ?  A.  I  was  second  assistant  phy¬ 
sician. 

Q.  Were  you  in  charge  of  the  male  department?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Whites  ?  A.  All  whites.  It  was  a  small  asylum  containing 
from  225  to  250  patients. 

0.  And  you  came  from  there  here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


363 


Q.  You  have  been  Superintendent  of  this  institution  ever  since? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  was  your  predecessor  here?  A.  Dr.  Griffin. 

Q.  1  want  to  ask  you  very  particularly  about  the  matters  growing 
out  of  the  charges  here.  Have  you  got  a  copy  of  the  general  charges 
out  here  ?  I  want  to  start  out  with  the  reception  of  patients.  The  first 
thing  that  come  before  you,  I  suppose,  is  an  application  for  the 
commitment  of  a  patient,  doctor?  A.  Usually  it  comes  in  a  printed 
form. 

Q.  Who  do  you  get  them  from?  A.  The  probate  judges. 

Q.  In  the  different  counties?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  you  get  those  blanks,  what  is  the  first  thing  you  do? 
A.  Up  to  last  summer  it  was  not  expected  that  a  physician’s  report 
should  be  attached  to  it.  Those  papers  would  come  to  me,  and 
according  as  we  had  room,  the  answer  would  be  that  the  patient 
would  be  received  within  a  certain  number  of  days,  usually  ten.  The 
only  requirement  in  addition  to  that  would  be  in  the  time  of  a  small¬ 
pox  epidemic,  and  then  we  would  add  a  requirement  that  the  patient 
will  be  received  within  ten  days  if  properly  vaccinated.  That  vacci¬ 
nation  requirement  is  added  only  in  case  of  an  epidemic. 

0.  Only  added  in  time  of  an  epidemic  ?  As  I  understand  it,  no 
physician's  certificate  was  required  until  last  summer,  is  that  right? 
A.  Not  necessarily.  While  I  was  away  there  came  up  some  con¬ 
troversy  about  it.  The  Board  of  Regents  took  that  opportunity  to 
change  the  rules  and  notified  them  that  two  physicians  must  endorse 
that  first  before  the  application  is  received.  That  was  the  Board 
of  Regents'  determination  about  it. 

Q.  Is  that  the  rule  now  ?  A.  That  rule,  according  to  the  board,  is 
being  carried  out  now. 

Q.  When  an  applicant  comes  in  now,  his  application  has  to  be 
endorsed  by  two  physicians?  A.  The  only  exception  is  what  is 
called  an  emergency  case.  This  is  an  important  law  that  does  not 
seem  to  be  understood  as  well  as  it  ought  to  be,  by  which  any  per¬ 
son  violently  insane  may  be  received  in  the  institution  upon  the 
request  of  two  reputable  physicians  made  to  the  mayor  or  intendant 
or  any  recognized  official,  and  then  and  finally,  from  those  two  citi¬ 
zens  a  certificate  that  they  will  have  the  proper  papers  made  out 
within  five  days. 

0.  And  you  hold  them?  A.  For  this  five  days. 

O.  These  papers  are  filed  and  then  they  furnish  you  with  the 
regular  papers?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


364 


Q.  Without  the  regular  papers  you  receive  them?  A.  Yes,  sir, 
up  to  about  1896  or  1897,  the  immemorial  custom  here  was  that  a 
patient  would  be  received  upon  the  written  request  of  their  friends. 
The  Legislature  about  1896  or  1897  passed  a  law  at  my  request  put¬ 
ting  all  patients  on  the  same  basis  whether  the  person  was  a  pay 
patient  or  a  beneficiary  patient. 

0.  As  to  his  reception?  A.  Yes,  sir.  He  must  be  committed,  not 
simply  upon  a  request,  but  upon  a  sworn  statement  of  two  parties 
before  a  judge  of  probate  or  a  circuit  judge. 

Q.  In  this  commitment  do  they  state  that  the  patient  is  dangerous 
to  life  or  property?  Is  that  embodied  in  the  statment?  A.  That 
is  the  law. 

Q.  Is  that  required  to  be  embodied  in  the  certificate  from  the 
doctors?  We  have  had  one  of  them  put  in  here?  A.  The  doctor  is 
required  to  certify  to  it. 

Q.  What  I  am  trying  to  get  at  is  whether  you  follow  the  law  in 
that  respect?  A.  Yes,  sir.  That  is  a  part  of  the  duty  of  the  Board 
of  Regents.  I  can  speak  for  them. 

Q.  One  of  the  charges  made  against  you  and  the  Board  of 
Regents,  also,  is  that  this  institution,  under  the  law,  is  for  insane 
only,  for  that  class  of  insane  who  are  dangerous  to  life  and  property, 
and  that  you  constantly  violate  that  law.  I  want  to  get  at  the  facts 
whether  you  do  or  not,  and  if  you  do,  what  is  the  reason  for  it? 
The  part  I  am  driving  at  is  how  people  other  than  insane  people 
get  in  here,  if  it  is  a  fact  that  you  have  a  class  of  patients  besides 
the  insane?  A.  This  is  a  commitment  paper.  It  begins  with  the 
application  for  commitment. 

O.  I  have  read  that.  A.  This  paper  says — (reads). 

0.  When  they  are  admitted  here,  do  they  come  in  under  that 
paper?  Do  you  receive  any  other?  A.  We  do  not  receive  anybody 
who  does  not  come  committed.  I  have  not  in  fifteen  years  received 
any  one  who  was  not  committed. 

Q.  So,  you  have  the  certificate  of  the  probate  judge  and  of  two 
physicians  that  they  are  insane?  A.  First  the  application  to  the 
probate  judge,  then  the  physicians  go  on  to  say,  etc.,  and  wind  up 
subscribed  and  sworn  to,  etc. 

O.  That  is  not  the  patient  himself?  A.  No,  sir;  the  applicant 
executes  that;  first,  that  he  is  dangerous ;  second,  that  the  insanity 
is  of  a  more  or  less  permanent  character ;  third,  that  he  can  not  con¬ 
duct  his  usual  work  or  business;  fourth,  that  the  patient  has  been  a 
resident  of  South  Carolina  for  the  last  two  years. 


365 


Q.  Do  you  require  those  things  to  be  filled  out  when  you  receive 
those  patients?  A.  I  am  just  as  particular  as  I  can  be. 

Q.  Are  your  instructions  to  the  probate  judges  throughout  the 
counties  to  be  particular  about  these  commitment  applications?  A. 
Yes,  sir;  and  they  are  particular.  It  is  not  a  question  of  instruction, 
but  the  probate  judges  are  particular  about  them. 

Q.  That  is  your  experience  and  your  testimony?  A.  Yes,  sir; 
they  are  particular. 

Q.  Who  got  up  that  form?  A.  That  was  gotten  up  under  the 
law  by  Judge  Ray,  who  was  probate  judge  of  Richland  County.  He 
and  I  got  it  up.  After  that  application  goes  back  to  those  doctors, 
the  doctors  certify  that  they  are  registered  in  accordance  with  the 
State  law,  and  they  certify  to  the  best  of  their  medical  knowledge 
that  the  patient  is  incurable  at  home,  and  that  his  being  at  large  is 
dangerous  to  himself,  etc.  The  applicant  certifies  to  it.  Then  two 
physicians  certify  to  it,  making  it  absolutely  sure  by  the  authority 
of  three  persons  that  the  person  is  dangerous. 

Q.  Suppose  they  come  here  with  those  prerequisites  not  carried 
out?  A.  There  are  instances  where  persons  are  violently  insane  and 
they  are  permitted  to  be  brought  here  without  any  compliance  with 
the  law  ? 

0.  Without  these  formalities?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  do  in  those  cases?  A.  I  receive  them  with  the 
proviso  that  if  those  papers  are  not  here  within  five  days  the  patient 
will  be  turned  loose. 

Q.  Where  do  they  get  the  papers?  A.  I  give  them  blanks.  That 
does  not  happen  a  dozen  times  in  a  year.  Usually  we  protest  and  say 
it  is  all  wrong,  but  meanwhile  here  is  the  poor  individual  violently 
insane  and  suffering,  and  he  could  be  admitted  under  that  emergency 
law,  and  then  they  are  received.  It  is  very  rare  that  we  do  not  get 
the  papers. 

Q.  When  you  do  receive  that  class  of  patients  does  it  turn  out 
that  they  ought  to  be  received?  A.  Sure.  Let  me  give  an  instance. 
I  think  concrete  examples  are  better  than  generalities.  A  young 
physician  in  the  lower  part  of  the  State  was  called  to  see  a  young 
girl  who  had  been  nursing  her  father — an  aged  father — for  several 
weeks.  The  girl  suddenly  realized  that  her  father  was  going  to  die, 
and  she  threw  herself  upon  the  floor,  and  said  I  am  lost,  I  am  lost. 
She  then  went  into  a  state  of  excitement  for  two  days.  The  doctor 
told  her  brother  and  brother-in-law  to  take  her  to  Columbia,  and  the 
first  that  we  knew  of  it  was  that  this  young  girl,  18  years  of  age, 


366 


was  brought  here.  I  protested,  but  her  brother  said  he  would  get  the 
papers.  The  girl  came  in  about  the  20th  of  last  October.  On  ad¬ 
mission  I  got  her  to  take  half  a  glass  of  milk.  After  that  she  refused 
to  eat,  and  she  was  fed  with  a  stomach  pump  for  five  months.  She 
never  took  anything  naturally.  Three  times  a  day  this  food  was  in¬ 
serted  through  a  tube,  a  rubber  tube,  into  her  stomach.  It  was  a 
running  fight  whether  the  poor  child  was  going  to  live  or  die.  Mean¬ 
while  I  could  not  get  the  papers.  I  appealed  to  the  probate  judge. 
He  finally  got  the  doctor  who  had  sent  her  here  to  sign  the  papers. 
The  law  requires  two  physicians.  I  sent  the  papers  back  to  the  pro¬ 
bate  judge,  and  said  this  commitment  was  not  legal  as  two  physi¬ 
cians  were  required.  He  wrote  me  that  he  would  try  to  get  the 
papers  completed.  Although  I  have  appealed  to  him,  he  has  not 
been  able  to  get  the  papers  signed  by  the  one  physician.  So  we 
have  not  commitment  for  that  patient.  That  case  is  one  out  of  a 
thousand,  but  I  am  personally,  officially,  individually,  and  every  way 
responsible  for  receiving  that  girl,  and  I  had  to  do  it  as  a  matter  of 
humanity.  It  is  not  law. 

Q.  Is  she  here  now?  A.  Yes,  she  is  getting  well. 

Q.  These  dope  fiends  and  inebriate  people  who  are  in  here,  not 
violently  insane,  how  do  they  get  in  here?  A.  Under  the  same  com¬ 
mitment. 

Q.  Under  the  same?  A.  Yes,  sir;  we  will  not  receive  them.  A 
dozen  years  ago  when  we  were  not  so  crowded,  I  had  some  most 
excellent  and  admirable  men  who  had  the  curse  of  inebriacy  upon 
them  to  come  here  and  ask  to  be  received,  and  we  would  take  them 
on  their  own  request,  but  the  Board  of  Regents,  after  considering  all 
these  matters,  ordered  me  to  receive  no  inebriates  who  were  not 
committed  under  that  form,  and  for  a  dozen  or  more  years,  no  one 
has  been  received  who  has  not  been  committed  regularly. 

Q.  How  about  dope  fiends ;  do  they  come  in  the  same  way  as 
these  others?  A.  We  don't  receive  them  except  in  emergency  cases. 

O.  These  inebriates  are  received  in  the  same  way?  A.  As  dan¬ 
gerous  inebriates. 

Q.  Insane?  What  about  that?  A.  That  is  for  the  doctors  and 
the  probate  judge. 

Q.  Do  they  put  that  in  there?  A.  Yes,  sir;  that  identical  paper. 

Q.  A  form  of  insanity?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Dr.  Sawyer — Do  you  remember  a  case  I  sent  you  from  George¬ 
town,  the  case  of  an  inebriate  about  two  years  ago,  Mr.  - ? 

Explain  this  point :  Another  physician  and  I  made  out  this  report. 


367 


He  got  so  he  would  hide  out  behind  doors,  and  shut  out  people,  and 
thought  his  wife  was  trying  to  kill  him,  and  they  did  everything  they 
could  to  keep  whiskey  away  from  him.  He  was  insane  as  soon  as 
he  had  access  to  whiskey,  and  there  was  no  way  for  11s  to  handle 
him.  We  put  him  in  jail.  So  we  signed  this.  We  signed  that 
under  oath,  that  under  those  conditions  he  was  permanently  insane. 
Of  course,  we  understood  under  those  conditions.  We  sent  hipi  up, 
and  he  staid  three  or  four  or  six  months  and  was  discharged  cured. 

Q.  Does  a  physician  have  to  sign  that  so  as  to  come  under  the 
law?  Is  there  no  other  way  to  do  it?  A.  While  you  are  on  ine¬ 
briates.  The  law  says  that  inebriates  can  only  be  received  here  as 
pay  patients. 

Q.  What  I  want  to  get  at  is  how  does  the  institution  observe  Sec¬ 
tion  2,249  the  General  Statutes  which  provides  that  a  person  shall 
be  considered  insane  or  fit  to  be  a  patient  in  the  hospital  who  exhibits 
in  the  first  place  such  a  degree  of  brain  disability  or  mental  aberra¬ 
tion  as  to  render  him  or  her  dangerous  to  others,  or  dangerous  to 
his  or  her  own  life  or  person,  or  dangerous  to  property ;  in  the  second 
place,  this  disability  must  not  be  transient  like  delirium  in  a  fever, 
but  of  a  more  or  less  permanent  character ;  in  the  third  place,  lack  or 
loss  of  mental  ability  to  properly  conduct  his  or  her  usual  work  or 
business  shall  be  considered  along  with  aberrant  conduct  in  deter¬ 
mining  the  question  of  a  person's  insanity.  I  want  to  know  if  it 
is  your  effort  to  observe  that,  and  do  you  observe  it?  A.  Yes,  sir; 
just  as  far  as  we  possible  can. 

0.  Do  you  keep  a  copy  of  the  statutes  in  the  institution?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Do  you  have  a  legal  adviser  when  you  need  one?  A.  Former¬ 
ly  there  was  an  attorney  on  the  board.  Latterly  there  has  not  been 
one.  If  any  serious  question  should  arise  I  should  not  hesitate  to 
go  to  an  attorney  for  advice,  and  in  case  of  doubt  I  have  always  gone 
to  the  resident  regent  or  communicated  with  the  others. 

Q.  This  form  sets  forth  all  the  law  that  is  required.  Does  the 
Board  of  Regents  adopt  this?  Is  this  the  form  in  use?  A.  It  is 
always  used  except  in  emergency  cases.  It  is  the  only  form  on  which 
any  sort  of  patient  is  admitted. 

Q.  If  a  patient  gets  in  who  is  not  insane  or  dangerous  to  life  or 
property,  who  is  responsible?  A.  I  suppose  if  you  go  to  the  bot¬ 
tom,  the  order  reads  for  me  to  receive  him. 

Q.  The  commitment  then  would  be  in  the  hands  of  the  probate 
judge  and  the  physicians?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


368 


Q.  Or  both?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  question  these  certificates  when  you  receive  them 
here,  or  do  you  accept  them?  A.  The  board  and  I  differ  a  little, 
there.  The  board  say  they  do  not  want  a  patient  received  until  they 
have  the  certificate  as  to  his  condition,  but  the  superintendent’s  re¬ 
ply  is — (reading). 

That  is  put  in  there  so  that  if  the  Board  of  Regents  in  conference 
with  vour  commission,  say  to  me,  as  I  from  the  bottom  of  my  heart 
would  be  glad  for  you  to  say,  for  the  white  men’s  department  is  full, 
it  is  overflowing,  and  we  have  not  got  room  for  another  white 
man,  therefore  if  you  ordered  me  to  receive  no  more  white  men 
than  there  are  now,  that  would  cover  it,  until  there  exists  a  vacancy, 
and  that  a  probate  judge's  order  will  be  filed  and  as  a  vacancy 
occurs  the  patients  may  be  taken  in.  That  is  the  custom  in  some 
States. 

0.  Is  there  any  effort  made  to  go  behind  this  certificate  from  the 
different  counties  to  ascertain  whether  they  are  correct  or  not? 
A.  Do  I  try? 

Q.  Yes?  Do  you  go  behind  those,  or  do  you  always  accept  them 
as  true  ?  A.  I  have  told  you  that  I  have  been  for  24  years  in  asylum 
work.  I  want  to  say  for  the  credit  of  the  people  I  -have  had  to  deal 
with,  that  I  have  never  had  a  suspicion  in  my  mind  that  anybody 
was  being  unjustly  committed  to  an  institution.  I  want  to  say  that 
in  justice  to  the  probate  judges  and  to  the  physicians.  I  have  never 
had  the  inquiry  in  my  mind  in  half  a  dozen  cases  in  that  time.  When 
two  physicians  and  a  probate  judge  say  a  person  is  insane  I  accept 
it  as  prima  facie  evidence  that  he  is  insane. 

Q.  And  you  inquire  no  further?  A.  I  don’t  think  I  would  be 
justified  in  the  light  of  my  experience  with  the  men  of  this  State  to 
go  further  than  this  commitment? 

Q.  If  you  had  a  suspicion  that  something  was  wrong,  then  you 
would  go  behind  it?  A.  When  I  have  had  a  suspicion,  and  I  tell 
you  it  has  been  exceedingly  rarely,  I  have  gone  further.  Let  me 
make  it  a  little  more  clear.  We  have  patients  who  come  here  com¬ 
mitted  as  insane,  and  those  patients  do  not  show  any  signs  of  in¬ 
sanity,  and  may  be  a  month  may  go  by,  or  may  be  two  months,  and 
we  have  an  idea  and  we  often  say,  the  probate  judge  and  the  two 
doctors  were  mistaken,  and  then  we  have  sent  out  those  persons.  I 
have  a  case  in  mind  here  where  a  patient  remained  several  weeks 
and  never  showed  any  signs  of  insanity  that  Dr.  Saunders  or  I 


3^9 

could  detect  and  we  sent  her  out,  and  a  week  she  was  back  and  has 
been  crazy  ever  since. 

Q.  One  of  the  charges  is  that  when  patients  come  here  that  you 
don’t  make  any  effort  to  find  out  whether  they  are  proper  subjects  of 
the  institution  ?  A.  O,  yes,  we  do. 

0.  What  steps  do  you  take  under  these  facts  that  you  have  testi¬ 
fied  to?  What  do  you  do  to  ascertain?  A.  Those  patients  are  ex¬ 
amined. 

Q.  By  the  physician  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who?  A.  The  physician  of  that  department. 

Q.  If  a  female,  who  examines  her?  A.  Dr.  Sanders. 

Q.  White  female?.  A.  Dr.  Saunders. 

Q.  White  male?  A.  Dr.  Thompson. 

Q.  Colored  female?  A.  Dr.  Babcock. 

Q.  Negro  male?  A.  Dr.  Griffin. 

Q.  Do  they  go  into  that  examination?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  fully  are  they  examined?  A.  Well,  that  depends  a  good 
deal  on  the  patient’s  condition.  As  I  say  we  have  patients  to  come 
in  here  like  this  one  I  have  told  you  about.  Dr.  Saunders  examined 
her,  and  I  went  in  there,  and  could  find  nothing  wrong  with  her. 

Q.  Do  you  make  a  medical  examination  taking  into  consideration 
the  state  and  the  condition  of  the  patient  so  as  to  ascertain  whether 
the  patient  is  a  fit  subject  for  this  institution?  A.  We  do. 

Q.  Is  that  carefully  looked  after?  A.  To  the  best  of  my  knowl¬ 
edge. 

Q.  In  your  own  department  do  you  look  carefully?  A.  I  do.  Re¬ 
member,  I  do  not  entertain  a  suspicion  against  the  doctors  or  the 
judges  of  probate. 

Q.  Here  is  just  the  question.  Here  are  the  charges  that  you  have 
not  gone  into  that - 

The  Chairman — Have  you  known  or  expected  that  physicians  ever 
signed  the  certificates  without  making  a  personal  examination?  A. 
If  that  is  ever  done,  it  is  done  when  the  physician  is  absolutely  con¬ 
versant  with  the  history  of  his  patient,  and  knows  exactly  what  he 
is  doing.  For  instance,  if  a  man  is  known  as  being  notoriously  a 
drunkard,  or  if  his  insanity  is  known  to  the  whole  community,  I 
have  no  doubt  that  physicians  at  times  have  not  made  a  personal 
examination,  but  I  don't  think  that  happens  once  in  500  times.  The 
case  that  I  cited  to  you  of  this  little  girl  who  was  brought  here  as  an 
emergency  case,  we  have  not  been  able  to  get  the  papers. 

Q,  State  whether  it  comes  under  your  observation  that  physicians 


24— A. 


3/0 


are  careless  ?  A.  They  are  not  careless  about  their  examinations.  I 
think  sometimes  a  doctor  does  not  always  write  out  those  things.  I 
remember  this  certificate  was  made  by  myself  and  Judge  Ray  from 
the  New  York  law.  It  was  taken  bodily  from  the  New  York  law, 
and  this  whole  thing  is  based  on  the  New  York  law,  that  is,  from 
the  New  York  Lunacy  Commission.  We  decided  that  form  was  the 
best  we  could  get.  I  don’t  think  physicians  are  careless  about  it,  but 
I  do  think  in  the  case  of  this  young  girl,  when  he  realized  the  girl’s 
condition,  I  don’t  think  that  he  recalled  for  a  moment  that  the  law 
required  two  physicians  to  examine  her,  and  I  think  he  just  picked 
her  up  and  sent  her  here. 

Mr.  Dick — Are  records  kept  of  those  examinations,  or  not?  When 
is  it  best  to  examine  them,  immediately  after  they  come  in?  A.  They 
are  examined  as  soon  as  possible.  Often,  if  they  are  violent,  they 
can  not  be  properly  examined. 

Mr.  Carey — What  is  the  best  time  to  ascertain  their  condition  ? 
A.  In  a  week.  We  have  this  feeling,  Mr.  Carey :  When  a  patient 
comes  in — very  often  they  come  in  exceedingly  violent,  and  in  the 
course  of  a  week  their  violence  usually  goes  down. 

Q.  That  is  the  best  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  can  tell  us  a  little  more  about  those  inebriates.  There  is 
a  provision  of  the  statute  that  does  not  allow  the  reception  of  them 
when  you  are  in  an  over-crowded  condition.  What  do  you  do  about 
that?  A.  Mr.  Carey,  as  I  told  you — 

Q.  Unless  they  are  insane?  A.  There  is  a  certificate  by  two  phy¬ 
sicians  and  that  certificate  is  accepted  by  the  probate  judge,  and  we 
are  ordered  to  receive  them. 

Q.  Do  you  except  these  inebriates,  etc.,  from  your  regular  form? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  do  not  receive  them  under  that  section  that  allows  them 
to  come  in  as  voluntary  patients  ?  A.  The  Board  of  Regents  stopped 
it  a  dozen  years  ago.  They  told  me  never  to  receive  them  as  volun¬ 
tary  patients,  but  that  they  must  come  in  directly  in  accordance  with 
the  rules  for  other  patients,  and  I  carry  out  those  instructions  of 
the  board. 

Q.  They  are  only  received  as  insane?  A.  Yes,  sir;  absolutely. 

Q.  When  they  are  received,  they  come  in  as  any  other  patients 
here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  rule  about  pay  patients?.  A.  The  law  says  they 
must  pay. 

O.  Do  you  carry  out  that  provision  ?. 


A.  As  far  as  we  can. 


37 1 


The  county  officials  evade  the  law  in  regard  to  it!  It  is  more  hon¬ 
ored  in  the  breach  than  in  the  observance.” 

Q.  Do  you  breach  it  here  ?  A.  We  can  notify  the  county  officials, 
as  is  often  done,  sir. 

Q.  What  about  that  bond  that  is  required  to  be  given,  and  the 
$41  required  to  be  paid?  A.  They  usually  evade  it.  It  is  usually  not 
prepared.  When  the  application  is  received  as  a  beneficiary,  we  call 
attention  to  the  requirement  that  they  can  only  be  received  as  pay 
patients — that  is,  as  to  inebriates — Very  often  the  probate  judges 
when  it  is  called  for  evade  it  in  some  way. 

Q.  Then  the  patient  must  be  a  pay  patient  under  that  section? 
Do  you  send  them  to  the  probate  judges?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  are  sent  by  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  it  gets  back  to  the  probate  judge  what  is  done  about  it? 
A.  The  probate  judge  very  often  says  I  am  going  to  refer  this 
to  the  county  commissioners,  and  when  they  reply  we  will  send  the 
money,  but  very  often  they  do  not  do  it. 

Q.  Does  not  the  record  read  against  the  county?  A.  Yes,  sir, 
but  they  will  not  pay  it. 

Q.  You  can  sue  them.  What  I  want  to  get  at  is  how  particular 
you  are?  A.  We  are  as  particular  as  we  can  be,  but  in  many  of 
those  instances  the  counties  will  not  pay  unless  we  sue  them,  you  see. 

Q.  Have  you  ever?  A.  Never  have  sued  them. 

Mr.  Sawyer — Have  you  had  many  of  them  as  patients?  A.  Yes, 
sir ;  we  average  about  twenty-five  of  them  per  year. 

Q.  What  about  the  $41.60  the  statute  says  must  be  paid  in  ad¬ 
vance?  A.  We  call  attention- to  it,  and  ask  for  it. 

Q.  The  statute  says  “no  such  beneficiary  patient  shall  be  admitted 
unless  the  county  from  which  patient  comes  shall,  at  the  time  of 
admission  and  as  a  prerequisite  thereto,  pay  to  the  said  superinten¬ 
dent  two  months’  board  ($41.60)  in  advance?”  A.  They  come  here 
without  the  money. 

Q.  Do  you  receive  them  without  the  money?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  have  you  got  in  here  now  that  you  have  decided 
ought  to  be  pay  patients  and  do  not?  A.  I  recall  one  right  now. 
We  think  he  is  an  inebriate,  and  notified  the  judge  of  probate  of 
his  county,  and  he  says  they  refuse  to  pay,  and  that  they  insist  that 
the  man  is  crazy,  that  the  inebriacy  is  a  result  of  his  being  crazy, 
and  not  his  being  crazy  of  inebriacy. 

Q.  They  claim  that  he  is  received  as  insane?  A.  We  say  he  is 
an  inebriate,  and  he  is  committed  as  such  here. 


372 


0.  If  you  pronounce  him  an  inebriate,  which  says  the  money  must 
be  paid  as  a  prerequisite  to  his  admission,  how  do  you  get  around 
the  statute?  A.  We  try  to  get  it  from  the  probate  judge  and  the 
amount  is  not  paid.  In  the  meantime  the  man  is  brought  here.  It 
is  an  easy  thing  theoretically  to  say  to  them  to  take  him  back  home, 
we  will  not  receive  him.  We  can’t  do  that.  If  a  man  is  brought 
a  hundred  miles  in  the  State  of  Georgia,  an  inebriate,  if  the  law  is 
not  complied  with  absolutely  and  fully,  he  is  not  received. 

Q.  You  mean  you  haven’t  got  the  heart  to  turn  them  away?  A.  I 
do.  I  mean  I  am  not  going  to  punish  a  man  who  has  been  brought 
a  hundred  miles,  not  at  his  own  volition,  and  because  the  law  has 
not  been  complied  with,  why  should  I  punish  him  for  it? 

Q.  How  many  have  you  in  here  now  who  are  not  insane?  A.  I 
don’t  suppose  we  have  more  than  five  or  six  now. 

Q.  What  is  the  average?  A.  We  receive  about  twenty-five  in 
the  course  of  a  year. 

Q.  About  twenty-five?  A.  More  or  less. 

Q.  llow  long  do  they  usually  stay  ?  A.  Two  months.  The  Board 
of  Regents  has  worked  very  faithfully  over  this  question  of  inebriates, 
and  you  gentlemen  and  everybody  that  has  studied  into  this  problem, 
know  that  it  is  one  of  the  most  serious  questions  that  society  has  to 
deal  with.  Members  of  the  Legislature  for  a  number  of  years  have 
wanted  to  pass  a  law  that  they  shall  not  be  admitted.  They  asked 
for  a  law  to  be  passed  prohibiting  the  admission  of  inebriates.  My 
position  is  this:  It  would  be  a  great  blessing  if  we  were  so  that  we 
did  not  have  to  receive  them,  but  until  you  provide  some  other 
receptacle  for  them  for  the  protection  of  innocent  women  and  chil¬ 
dren,  we  have  got  to  receive  them  here. 

Q.  If  I  understand  you,  if  you  make  a  technical  violation  of  the 
statutes,  it  is  in  the  interest  of  humanity?  A.  That  is  the  sole  pur¬ 
pose.  We  try  to  live  up  to  the  letter  of  the  law,  but  I  think  we  are 
likely  to  strain  it.  You  know  that  human  law  cannot  cover  every 
case. 

Q.  You  mean  you  try  to  live  up  to  the  spirit  of  the  law,  not  the 
letter?  A.  The  letter,  as  far  as  you  can.  To  go  back  to  this  diffi¬ 
culty,  suppose  I  had  said  to  those  gentlemen,  take  her  back  to  the 
sea  coast.  I  will  not  receive  her.  You  have  not  complied  with  the 
law  ? 

0.  If  they  commit  an  idiot  as  dangerously  insane,  and  you  dis¬ 
cover  that  idiocv  is  the  trouble,  what  do  you  do  and  say,  when  there 


373 


are  no  signs  of  danger?  A.  Danger  is  susceptible  to  a  wide  inter¬ 
pretation. 

Q.  As  a  rule  are  they  that  way?  A.  I  have  seven  negro  boys 
here  so  small  that  I  am  afraid  to  put  them  with  negro  men,  and 
I  have  got  those  seven  little  idiot  negro  boys  with  the  negro  women. 

Q.  The  children  who  get  in  here,  are  they  committed  by  the  judge 
of  probate  under  the  regular  form  of  admission  into  the  institution? 
A.  Absolutely.  Since  your  commission  was  in  session  I  submitted 
to  your  Chairman  an  application,  a  letter  on  which  the  names  of  a 
brother  and  sister  appear,  seven  and  six  years  old.  I  don’t  say  two, 
but  one  of  them  wanted  those  two  feeble-minded  children  in  here. 

The  Chairman — I  thought  that  indicated  carelessness,  doctor?  A. 
I  don’t  think  that  was  carelessness.  1  think  that  that  was.  made  in 
good  faith,  and  after  you  had  considered  it  quite  a  while,  and  it 
did  not  come  within  your  province,  and  1  left  it  to  two  members  of 
the  Board  of  Regents  who  had  served  a  long  time,  and  who  had  held 
me  responsible  for  receiving  six  hundred  like  these  seven  idiot  chil¬ 
dren.  I  left  it  to  this  body  of  gentlemen.  And  they  told  me  to 
inform  the  probate  judge  that  those  persons  were  not  proper  sub¬ 
jects  for  admission  to  this  asylum.  After  that  opinion  from  my 
superior  officers  I  so  notified  the  judge  of  probate.  If  it  had  been 
left  to  me  I  would  have  received  them  and  done  the  best  I  could 
with  them. 

Q.  How  many  idiots  do  you  think  you  have  in  here?  A.  We  have 
little  children  in  here  five,  six,  seven  and  eight  years  old  that  no 
other  asylum  in  the  United  States  would  receive. 

Q.  How  many?  A.  Off-hand,  twenty-five. 

Q.  About  twenty-five  idiots?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  epileptics?  A.  O,  we  must  have  one  hundred  and 
fifty. 

Q.  Do  you  observe  the  same  rule?  A.  Absolutely. 

Q.  Committed  as  insane?  A.  Yes,  sir.  You  gentlemen  must 
understand  that  I  am  personally  and  officially  responsible  for  receiv¬ 
ing  these  patients.  The  Board  of  Regents  is  not  responsible,  but  I 
want  to  make  it  clear  that  I  differ  with  the  gentlemen  of  the  Board 
of  Regents  for  not  receiving  those  two  white  children.  Crowded  as 
we  are,  I  think  it  was  charity  to  have  those  two  patients  come  here 
and  we  would  do  the  best  we  could  for  them.  Bad  as  we  are,  we 
like  to  have  an  institution,  and  I  feel  that  we  are  better  than  the 
poorhouse  to  which  they  have  been  assigned,  though  it  is  one  of  the 
best  poorhouses  in  South  Carolina.  When  you  go  through  these 


374 


wards  and  find  these  paralyzed  children  who  have  worn  out  their 
welcome  at  home  you  find  them  here.  It  is  very  easy  for  you  to 
say  it  is  an  imposition  on  the  people.  Theoretically  it  is.  Practically 
the  Board  of  Regents  have  not  forbidden  me,  but  my  idea  is  to  ad¬ 
minister  the  institution  with  the  broadest  charity,  and  that  it  is  bet¬ 
ter  to  receive  those  children  than  to  keep  them  at  their  homes. 

0.  They  charge  that  you  will  not  let  them  out.  Whose  duty  is 
it  to  discharge?  A.  That  comes  through  the  assistant  physician  to 
me,  arid,  Mr.  Carey,  it  is  a  satisfaction  to  any  doctor  when  his 
patient  gets  well,  but  it  is  the  one  single  consolation  that  comes  into 
the  life  of  a  doctor  here  to  have  an  insane  person  recover. 

Q.  Have  you  observed  the  statute  that  makes  it  the  duty  of  the 
Board  of  Regents  to  discharge?  A.  When  we  had  six,  seven  or 
eight  hundred  patients,  all  patients  were  discharged  by  the  Board 
of  Regents.  When  the  Board  of  Regents  came  they  divided  them¬ 
selves  up  into  committees,  and  considered  each  case  when  a  patient 
came  before  the  board,  may  be,  thirty,  forty  or  fifty,  but  with  the 
population  we  have  now,  the  effort  is  to  keep  them  moving,  and 
instead  of  having  one  day  in  the  month  to  discharge  them,  we  dis¬ 
charge  them  just  as  rapidly  as  we  can.  We  try  to  keep  the  popu¬ 
lation  moving. 

Q.  Who  does  that  now?  A.  The  assistant  physician  and  the  su¬ 
perintendent.  They  discharge. 

Q.  Has  the  Board  of  Regents  vested  the  discretion  in  you  as  su¬ 
perintendent?  A.  They  practically  have,  because  they  found  that 
they  could  not. 

Q.  Are  they  judges?  A.  They  had  to  take  our  recommendation 
when  they  did  discharge. 

Q.  You  act  largely  upon  the  recommendation  of  the  physician  in 
charge?  A.  I  do.  I  think  that  was  brought  out  from  Dr.  Thomp¬ 
son.  He  had  no  patient  in  his  department  that  he  could  recall  at 
present  who  could  be  sent  out  with  any  reasonable  degree  of  safety. 

O.  The  complaint  is  that  under  the  law  they  are  entitled  to  an 
absolute  discharge.  Instead  of  giving  them  an  absolute  discharge, 
you  qualify  it?  A.  I  will  show  you  the  law  for  that. 

Q.  2259?  A.  Whenever  we  can  we  like  to  recommend  the  dis¬ 
charge  of  patients  and  we  do  it.  Under  this  law  patients  are  dis¬ 
charged  on  furlough,  Section  2259. 

Q.  This  is  the  form  I  wanted  you  to  explain?  A.  This  is  our 
record  under  that  law. 

Q.  When  a  patient  is  out  on  furlough?  A.  That  makes  it  clear 


375 


that  the  patient  goes  out  on  furlough,  and  on  the  request  of  the 
relatives  and  not  because  we  discharge  them  as  well. 

Q.  When  you  give  them  this,  it  certifies  that  it  is  a  case  of  fur¬ 
lough  and  not  a  discharge?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  you  discharge  a  patient  as  cured?  A.  Recovered,  if 
you  please. 

Q.  When  they  recover  and  go  out,  do  they  go  out  under  any 
conditions?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  It  is  an  absolute  and  free  discharge?  A.  None  at  all. 

Q.  Have  you  a  discharge?  Do  you  ever  grant  them  a  discharge? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  we  do  it  constantly. 

Q.  And  the  Board  of  Regents  vests  you  with  that  power?  A.  Yes, 

sir. 

Q.  And  that  is  done  mainly  upon  your  advice?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  don’t  hamper  a  patient  out  on  furlough  with  any  state¬ 
ment  that  that  is  against  your  advice?  A.  No,  sir,  never. 

Q.  What  is  the  purpose  of  putting  that  in  ?  A.  That  again  is  a 
formula  that  comes  from  the  New  York  Lunacy  Commission.  Let 
me  give  you  an  instance  of  the  use  of  that.  The  most  natural 
thing  in  the  world  when  one  finds  himself  locked  up  is  to  feel  that 
an  injustice  has  been  done  him,  and  our  patients  finding  themselves 
locked  up  in  the  asylum,  resent  it  as  you  or  I  would.  They  try 
by  various  means  to  get  out.  Very  often  their  friends  will  not  take 
them.  Then,  if  they  can  get  a  lawyer,  the  lawyer  comes  and  he 
takes  out  habeas  corpus  proceedings. 

Mr.  Sawyer — On  behalf  of  the  patient?  A.  The  superintendent 
says,  I  am  not  going  to  let  him  out,  and  the  lawyer  says,  if  you 
don’t  turn  him  out,  I  am  going  to  take  out  habeas  corpus  pro¬ 
ceedings.  Now,  I  never  care  to  drive  anybody  to  institute  habeas 
corpus  proceedings.  The  Board  of  Regents  tell  me  to  do  it,  to  let 
them  institute  habeas  corpus  proceedings,  but  knowing  that  it  is 
at  great  expense  to  his  family,  I  can’t  tell  you  off-hand  what  it 
is  right  now,  but  I  have  got  it  into  my  head  some  way  that  it  costs 
upwards  of  a  hundred  dollars.  Now,  when  they  wish  to  take  a 
patient  out  that  we  do  not  consider  well,  we  ask  them  to  sign  that 
receipt  rather  than  go  to  the  expense  of  a  habeas  corpus  proceeding. 

Q.  If  I  understand,  the  signing  of  that  paper  is  in  case  of  fur¬ 
lough,  but  when  you  discharge  that  as  recovered,  he  goes  free?  A. 
Certainly. 

Q.  Hampered  with  no  statement  of  your  advice?  A.  No,  sir. 


376 

Q.  You  would  not  turn  them  out  if  your  advice  was  that  they 
would  be  retained?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  report  your  recoveries  anywhere?  A.  In  the  annual 
report. 

The  Chairman — Does  that  also  include  this  stay  of  three  months 
if  they  prove  to  be  well?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Does  it  show  those  that  are  sent  out  annually  and  recovered? 
A.  Not  separately. 

Q.  Your  records  would  show  that?  A.  These  are  recorded. 

Q.  Those  that  are  sent  out  annually  and  recover  are  recorded? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  But  they  are  not  separated  in  the  report?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  the  rule  with  reference  to  inebriates — do  they  kick 
about  being  kept  in  here?  .A.  The  law  says  sixty  days,  when  a 
man  comes  as  an  inebriate  the  first  time,  he  stays  sixty  days,  and 
then  goes  out. 

Q.  Does  he  go  out  under  one  of  these  forms?  A.  Not  usually. 
The  regents  in  studying  this  problem,  tried  to  elaborate  some  prin¬ 
ciple,  the  first  time  sixty  days.  If  they  come  back  the  second  time, 
they  double  it  to  four  months.  They  have  been  studying  the  ques¬ 
tion  of  chronic  inebriety  considerably. 

Q.  The  point  1  wanted  to  get  at  was  whether  they  were  unreas¬ 
onably  kept  in  here  after  they  ought  to  be  out?  A.  No.  I  want 
to  make  it  clear.  I  want  to  make  it  clear  as  to  the  seriousness  of 
this  problem.  In  the  report  for  1905  you  will  find  this  caption, 
“Modern  Charity  Administration.”  That  sums  up  as  clearly  and 
perfectly  what  you  might  call  the  inebriety  problem  as  anything  I 
have  seen. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  kept  inebriates  that  you  thought  ought  to  go 
out?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  your  rule  to  let  him  out  as  soon  as  you  think  it  proper 
that  he  should  go?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  he  comes  in  do  you  require  a  guaranty  on  the  part  of  the 
county  commissioners  ?  A.  I  do  in  some  cases,  the  Board  of  Regents 
do  in  some  cases. 

Q.  That  is  another  objection,  that  you  require  the  same  thing 
to  withdraw  a  man  if  he  is  a  notorious  inebriate,  whose  history  is 
that  of  an  inebriate  who  has  exhausted  the  patience  of  his  family  and 
friends.  To  withdraw  him  you  require  a  certificate  to  that  effect? 
A.  Just  the  same  in  form. 

Q.  Have  you  got  one?  A.  That  is  the  sole  certificate. 


377 


Q.  That  is  for  the  same  reason  you  require  those  who  are  not 
inebriates?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  that  the  custom  among  institutions  of  this  kind  to  have 
some  such  form  as  that?  A.  As  I  tell  you,  this  is  the  New  York 
form. 

Q.  What  about  other  institutions?  A.  I  cannot  tell  you.  I  know 
it  is  the  form  in  Georgia,  because  the  superintendent  of  the  Georgia 
hospital  introduced  it  from  this  institution  over  there.  At  least, 
he  wrote  me  and  said  he  wanted  to  introduce  it. 

Q.  It  is  the  form  used  in  other  institutions?  A.  Yes,  sir.  In 
my  experience  there  has  been  no  board  that  has  studied  the  prob¬ 
lem  of  insanity  like  the  New  York  Lunacy  Commission.  They  un¬ 
derstand  this  phase  of  the  problem,  and  whenever  I  have  been  able, 
I  have  borrowed  an  idea  from  the  New  York  Lunacy  Commission. 

Q.  Does  that  result  in  people  staying  in  here  who  ought  to  be 
out  ?  A.  The  friends  often  demur. 

Q.  They  don’t  want  to  sign?  A.  They  very  often  do  not. 

Q.  Is  it  not  because  when  they  have  applied  they  do  not  upon 
your  advice?  A.  Because  they  know  from  experience. 

Q.  They  have  their  own  reasons?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  case  where  they  are  not  dangerous,  and  where  they  have 
no  reasons,  do  they  readily  sign  those  things?  A.  Often  they  do. 

Q.  What  is  about  the  proportion  of  return  patients  that  go  out 
under  those  furloughs?  A.  Very  often  they  come  back. 

Q.  When  they  come  back,  they  do  not  come  at  the  expense  of  the 
State?  A.  Yes,  sir,  this  says  so.  That  is  the  law,  that  they  shall 
pay  all  traveling  expenses  of  the  patient  from  and  back  to  the 
hospital. 

Q.  How  do  they  come,  at  the  expense  of  the  State  ?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  A  few  come  back?  A.  Yes,  sir.  This  law  of  furlough  is 
fair,  in  the  first  place,  to  the  individual ;  in  the  second  place,  to  the 
county,  and  in  the  third  place,  to  the  institution.  It  is  an  admir¬ 
able  law. 

Q.  It  is  charged  that  in  your  management  of  the  asylum  that  you 
dominate  the  Board  of  Regents.  Is  there  anything  in  that  ?  A.  You 
understand  that  I  came  here  after  a  long  absence.  I  came  here 
after  a  long  absence  from  the  State,  and  it  was  the  most  natural 
thing  in  the  world  for  this  board  and  myself  to  have  been  at  logger- 
heads.  I  think  may  be  for  the  first  year  there  were  certain  members 
of  the  board  who  most  honestly  and  naturally  eyed  me  with  sus¬ 
picion  and  sized  me  up.  Gradually  there  sprang  up  between  those 


378 


members  and  myself  the  pleasantest  of  friendships  that  I  have  had 
in  a  life  of  many  happy  friendships.  I  remember  two  physicians 
on  this  board  in  particular.  The  board  often  differs  with  me,  but 
the  difference  is  honest.  They  have  always  done  me  the  honor  to 
listen  to  my  pet  theories  that  I  may  have  from  the  time  I  have 
been  here  advocating,  but  as  for  my  dominating  the  Board  of  Re¬ 
gents,  or  for  the  Board  of  Regents  to  be  dominating  me,  I  think  that 
is  impossible. 

O.  Are  you  working  in  harmony  with  each  other  ?  A.  The  board  ? 

Q.  Yes,  sir?  A.  From  my  point  of  view  it  has  been  extraordi¬ 
narily  harmonious. 

Q.  You  are  not  at  loggerheads  now,  are  you?  A.  With  this 
board  ? 

Q.  Yes?  A.  I  think  may  be  the  only  questions  between  this  board 
and  myself  arises  out  of  economy. 

Q.  Do  you  undertake  to  dictate  to  the  board  what  they  should 
do  and  should  not  do,  or  are  your  relations  in  the  form  of  a  con¬ 
ference?  A.  It  is  the  most  sincere  conference  and  confidence.  I 
am  the  subordinate  officer  of  the  board,  and  I  can  say  honestly  in  all 
my  dealings  with  them  I  have  never  kept  back  from  them  one 
single  matter  of  any  importance  connected  with  this  institution. 
Uniformly  I  go  out  of  my  way  to  tell  them  of  petty  things  that  I 
think  often  bore  them,  but  they  listen  to  me  with  great  patience. 

Q.  As  far  as  you  are  concerned,  you  undertake  to  keep  within 
your  own  line  of  duty  and  dominate  nobody?  Do  I  understand 
that?  A.  I  have  no  cause  to  interfere  and  try  to  force  my  opinions 
upon  them. 

Q.  Some  seem  to  think  that  you  have  and  that  you  have  been 
asked  about  it?  A.  If  I  have  done  so,  I  have  done  so  unconsciously. 

0.  The  questions  I  ask  are  from  what  is  put  before  me?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Who  employs  the  nurses,  and  I  am  going  to  confine  myself  to 
the  male  side?  A.  I  do. 

Q.  You  are  vested  with  that  authority  under  the  board?  A.  Un¬ 
der  the  board. 

Q.  Under  the  Board  of  Regents?  You  are  appointed  by  the  Gov¬ 
ernor?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  At  a  salary  of  how  much  ?  A.  Three  thousand  dollars. 

Q.  They  are  appointed  by  the  Governor?  A.  They  are. 

Q.  They  control  the  money  part  of  the  institution,  if  I  under¬ 
stand  you?  A.  They  are  the  trustees. 


379 


Q.  And  the  employment  of  nurses  comes  to  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  By  virtue  of  the  authority  they  have  conferred  upon  you?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  class  of  people  do  you  get  your  nurses  from?  A.  We 
have  a  great  many  applications  from  all  walks  of  life.  I  think  I 
will  say  almost  every  walk,  but  we  prefer  whenever  we  can  to  get 
young  men,  and  young  men  right  from  the  country.  Those  are 
our  choice. 

Q.  What  do  you  pay  the  young  men?  A.  Twenty-five  dollars. 

Q.  How  many  have  you  in  the  institution?  A.  We  haven’t  as 
many  as  we  ought  to  have,  because  just  at  present — 

Q.  I  believe  Dr.  Thompson  testified  that  there  were  about  fifteen 
on  his  side,  is  that  about  correct?  A.  I  think  that  is  about  correct. 
I  think  we  have  gotten  in  one  or  two  more. 

Q.  The  character  of  those  nurses,  how  particular  are  you  about 
that?  A.  I  did  not  know  until  Dr.  Thompson  testified,  I  did  not 
know  that  the  doctor  wished  to  employ  them.  I  have  employed 
them,  because  it  is  an  unpleasant  duty.  It  is  exceptional  that  I 
employ  them  without  seeing  them  myself,  and  I  have  selected  those 
young  men  with  as  much  character  as  I  possibly  could  do  it. 

Q.  Have  they  been  satisfactory  as  a  rule,  or  do  you  make  mis¬ 
takes?  A.  I  make  mistakes  sometimes. 

Q.  What  do  you  do  when  you  find  that  you  have  made  a  mistake? 
A.  I  let  them  go. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  kept  a  nurse  knowing  that  they  were  cruel  to 
patients?  A.  I  have  never  shielded  a  man  who  was  brought  up  on 
the  ground  of  cruelty.  When  the  question  of  cruelty  came  up  there 
was  no  defense.  They  were  discharged.  If  there  have  been  excep¬ 
tions  it  was  because  my  attention  was  not  strongly  called  to  it.  I 

think  there  was  a  case  brought  up  of  a  young  man  named  - 

abused  by  an  attendant.  I  have  gone  over  that  matter  with  Dr. 
Thompson.  Mr.  Mitchell  mentioned  it  to  me,  but  Dr.  Thompson 
says  he  never  spoke  to  me  about  it,  so  the.  matter  was  overlooked. 

Q.  And  other  cases  were  mentioned,  one  of  them  resisted  an  at¬ 
tendant.  Do  you  recollect  what  was  done  in  that  case?  A.  I  can 
only  tell  you  what  my  rule  was. 

Q.  What  is  your  rule?  A.  To  let  them  go  without  any  defense. 

Q.  Is  it  against  the  rules  of  the  institution  to  allow  violence? 
A.  It  is. 

Q.  Without  regard  to  the  cause?  Suppose  that  self-defense  in  a 
case  should  arise?  A.  If  you  accept  self-defense,  there  may  be 


380 

instances  in  which  that  is  correct,  but  it  is  not  fair  to  the  patient 
to  allow  that  as  a  defense. 

Q.  You  make  no  exceptions?  A.  Yes,  I  have  made  exceptions, 
but  it  has  been  from  oversight  and  not  from  intention  or  habit.  Let 
me  trv  to  make  clear  what  my  feeling  is  about  abusing  patients.  I 
want  to  make  this  clear,  and  I  cannot  make  it  clearer  than  by 
reiterating  what  has  been  brought  out  today.  It  is  exceptional  that 
I  see  an  act  of  abuse.  I  caught  a  man  named  Kinard  abusing  a 
patient.  I  am  a  man  of  peace,  but  when  I  caught  him  I  caned  him. 

Q.  Who  was  that?  A.  A  man  named  Kinard. 

Q.  How  long  has  that  been?  A.  It  was  when  McSweeney  was 
Governor.  I  went  and  reported  it  to  him. 

Q.  Was  he  discharged?  A.  Yes,  sir;  he  went  right  out  then. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  held  a  man  in  here  after  hearing  of  any 
cruelty  by  him?  A.  I  would  have  said  no,  if  these  matters  which 
completely  escaped  my  recollection,  had  not  been  brought  up  here 
today. 

Q.  That  is  only  the  Belcher  case?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  has  been  the  only  man  retained?  A.  Yes,  sir.  If  there 
have  been  others,  it  has  not  been  from  intention  or  habit  or  purpose, 
because  that  is  one  thing  upon  which  I  have  convictions,  and  I 

act  upon  those  convictions,  too. 

Q.  Was  there  any  neglect  in  those  things  not  reaching  you, 
doctor?  A.  No,  I  don’t  want  say  there  was  neglect  on  the  part  of 
anybody  else. 

O.  Was  there  any  on  the  part  of  yourself  that  you  never  ascer¬ 
tained?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  think  that  was  partly  it,  I  think  I  should 
have  looked  into  it,  but  when  that  Belcher  case  came  up,  it  came 
up  when  I  was  being  driven  may  be  a  dozen  different  ways.  It  was 
a  very  busy  day,  and  all  sorts  of  things  crowding  in  upon  me,  and 
after  Dr.  Thompson  came  back  he  tells  me  he  never  called  my 
attention  to  it. 

Q.  What  is  your  recollection  as  to  Mr.  Mitchell  calling  your  at¬ 
tention  to  the  case?  A.  Mr.  Mitchell  says  he  called  my  attention  to 
it.  If  he  says  so  it  is  probably  correct,  but  you  must  remember  that 
at  that  time  I  was  probably  doing  three  persons’  work,  and  the  thing 
completely  escaped  me. 

Q.  How  long  ago  has  that  been?  A.  Four  years  approximately. 

Q.  Have  you  since  you  have  been  connected  with  this  institution 
ever  condoned  or  winked  at  anything  like  abuse  of  any  kind,  teas- 


3«i 

ing  patients,  assaults,  cruel  mistreatment  or  anything  of  that  kind? 
A.  If  I  have  ever  done  so,  it  has  been  done  unwittingly,  sir. 

Q.  Is  your  face  set  against  that  kind  of  thing  in  here,  doctor? 

A.  If  I  have  any  other  reputation  I  am  very  much  surprised,  sir. 

Q.  Would  you  have  allowed  it?  A.  I  should  not. 

Q.  Have  you  any  of  that  character  of  nurses  in  here  now,  work¬ 
ing  here?  A.  I  have  a  question  mark  after  two  or  three  individuals 
I  am  not  satisfied  with. 

Q.  You  are  investigating  those  men  ?  A.  Those  individuals. 

Q.  If  you  reach  the  conclusion  that  they  are  unfit,  what  is  the 
result?  A.  They  must  go. 

Q.  Have  you  power  to  discharge?  A.  I  most  assuredly  have. 

Q.  You  employ  and  discharge?  A.  I  do. 

Q.  What  has  been  your  custom  as  to  the  investigation  of  these 
cases  coming  to  you  through  Dr.  Thompson?  A.  Dr.  Thompson's 
report  on  that  thing  is  final.  If  the  doctor  says  a  patient  has  been 
abused,  reports  that  a  nurse  has  abused  a  patient,  that  is  final. 

Q.  You  accept  that  report?  A.  I  do.  and  without  question. 

Q.  It  does  not  require  any  separate  investigation  at  all?  A.  Not 
at  all. 

Q.  Has  Dr.  Thompson  and  his  corps  of  helpers  the  same  author¬ 
ity  in  their  ward  as  Dr.  Saunders  and  her  corps  in  her  side?  A. 
Surely. 

Q.  The  very  same  rules  and  regulations  apply  to  both  of  them? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  do  you  come  in  those  departments?  Do  they  consult 
you  when  matters  come  up  ?  A.  They  do  constantly  day  by  day,  and 

several  times  a  day. 

Q.  You  are  always  ready  to  enter  into  conference  with  them  when 
consulted?  A.  If  I  am  not  very  much  mistaken. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  declined  to?  A.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 

Q.  I  suppose  they  don’t  come  to  you  unless  it  is  something  extra¬ 
ordinary?  A.  I  have  really  felt  that  in  handling  these  young  men 
I  was  doing  Dr.  Thompson  a  favor  in  protecting  him.  If  it  had 
occurred  to  me  that  Dr.  Thompson  wanted  the  authority  up  there 
to  hire  and  discharge,  it  would  have  been  an  immense  relief  to 
me  to  have  given  it  to  him. 

Q.  What  has  been  your  impression  as  to  having  enough  nurses 
in  there?  A.  It  varies  in  all  institutions.  Sometimes  the  supply  is 
good  and  abundant,  and  at  other  times  it  is  not.  Just  at  this  time 
we  have  an  unusually  good  supply  of  young  women. 


Q.  I  mean  on  the  men’s  side?  .  A.  We  have  not  got  enough  for 
the  reason  that  I  have  not  been  able  to  satisfy  myself  that  the  indi¬ 
viduals  applying  were  suitable  persons. 

Q.  Do  you  have  much  difficulty  in  holding  them  after  you  get 
them.  A.  Yes,  sir,  by  the  time  a  young  man  comes  here  and  begins 
to  be  really  useful  to  us,  he  finds  that  he  can  get  better  pay.  It  is  a 
common  thing  for  them  to  come  and  stay  a  few  months,  and  then 
find  something  that  pays  them  better,  and  so  they  go. 

Q.  Who  has  charge,  primary  charge,  of  the  cleanliness  of  those 
wards?  A.  Well,  primarily,  it  is  the  nurses;  secondly,  it  is  the 
supervisor ;  and  thirdly,  it  is  the  assistant  physician  of  the  wards. 

Q.  Was  there  any  complaint  out  of  those  wards  about  their 
being  dirty,  unsanitary,  filthy,  full  of  bedbugs,  and  things  of  that 
kind?  A.  I  knew  that  they  had  bedbugs.  We  are  always  fighting 
them.  They  were  here  when  I  came  here  and  are  here  yet,  and 
the  fight  is  daily,  hourly,  consistently  going  on. 

Q.  How  about  the  difficulty  of  removing  them?  A.  I  think  that 
depends  very  much  upon  the  individual.  I  think  you  will  find  that 
one  nurse  is  efficient  in  making  that  fight,  and  another  is  not. 

Q.  Is  it  impossible  to  stamp  them  out  on  the  male  side?  A.  I 
don’t  know  why  it  should  be. 

Q.  They  can  be  got  rid  of?  A.  It  can  be  done.  The  old  build¬ 
ing  over  there  you  will  understand  is  getting  on  towards  eighty. 

Q.  That  is  for  the  colored  women?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  there  any  over  there?  A.  Not  many,  but  some.  There 
is  a  daily  fight  going  on  against  them. 

Q.  Are  there  any  in  Dr.  Saunders’  department  that  you  know 
of?  A.  They  crop  out  now  and  then,  and  then  the  whole  ward  is 
overturned  and  they  are  eliminated. 

Q.  Stamped  out?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  To  what  extent  according  to  your  observation  do  they  prevail 
in  these  male  wards?  A.  As  I  said  that  depends  to  a  certain  extent 
upon  the  vigilance  of  the  nurses,  but  it  is  not  necessary  for  me  to 
call  your  attention  to  the  fact  that  housekeeping  comes  more  na¬ 
tural  to  a  woman  than  it  does  to  a  man,  and  therefore  the  house¬ 
keeping  department  is  better  on  the  women’s  side  than  it  is  on  the 
men’s  side.  You  see,  you  gentlemen  are  grappling  with  problems 
that  have  been  fought  out  and  threshed  out  from  time  immemorial  in 
hospitals  and  asylums.  The  difficulty  of  getting  proper  nurses  for 
men  in  all  institutions  is  so  great  that  one  of  the  questions  up  at 
any  asylum  is  the  employment  of  female  nurses  in  rhe 


383 


male  wards.  I  have  tried  that  here.  I  have  had  a  man  and  his 
wife  in.  charge  of  the  ward  for  white  men.  That  matter  is  one  of 
them,  if  you  will  allow  me,  fads  of  asylum  life  today.  It  is  one  of 
the  problems  that  is  being  experiemented  with. 

Q.  Have  any  complaints  ever  come  up  to  you  about  bathing  pa¬ 
tients  in  the  same  water?  A.  I  have  heard  of  it  in  other  institutions, 
but  never  in  this. 

Q.  Dr.  Thompson  told  you  he  never,  and  Mr.  Mitchell  he  never? 

You  don’t  know  whether  it  is  a  fact  or  not  that  such  things  have 
happened?  A.  If  such  a  thing  has  happened,  it  has  been  without 
my  knowledge,  or  that  of  Mr.  Mitchell  and  Dr.  Thompson. 

Q.  If  you  had  known  such  a  thing  was  going  on,  what  would  you 
have  done?  A.  If  I  had  known  of  an  attendant  doing  such  a  thing 
1  would  have  discharged  him. 

Q.  At  once?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  any  complaints  ever  come  to  you  about  the  uncleanliness 
of  the  nurses?  A.  You  mean  of  their  clothing? 

O.  Yes,  sir?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  any  complaints  ever  reached  you  that  the  patients  were 
not  kept  clean?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Allowed  to  lie  in  their  filth?  A.  No,  sir.  Of  course,  we  have 
a  great  many  patients  who  are  untidy,  and  the  struggle  to  keep  all 
bedridden  and  paralyzed  patients  clean,  and  remember  we  receive 
those  patients  that  have  worn  out  their  welcome  at  home,  and  we  do 
the  very  best  we  can  for  them,  but  any  practicing  physician  will 
tell  you  that  it  is  the  hardest  problem  he  has  before  him  to  keep  that 
class  of  patients  clean. 

Q.  What  are  your  instructions  along  that  line?  A.  It  is  im¬ 
mediately  when  soiled  to  change  them. 

Q.  Immediately?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  keep  the  necessary  clothing  for  them  ?  A.  As  far  as 
1  know.  If  there  is  not  the  necessary  clothing  it  is  the  fault  of  the 
nurses  on  the  ward,  or  the  fault  of  the  supervisor  for  not  putting 
in  the  proper  requisition  to  get  the  clothing. 

Q.  Have  you  had  complaints  to  reach  you  that  they  were  feeding 
them  with  dirty  food  ?  A.  Not  that  they  were  giving  them  dirty 
food.  You  understand  that  the  conditions  which  you  are  rather  1 
emphasizing  now  are  conditions  which  are  inherent  in  the  construc¬ 
tion  of  the  building  which  I  found  when  I  came  here,  and  those 
complaints  have  been  made  by  Dr.  Thompson  and  Mr.  Bunch  to 


3*4 


me,  and  we  have  done  the  best  we  could  to  remedy  them  with  the 
facilities  that  we  have  had  at  hand. 

Q.  That  is  as  to  the  preparation  of  the  food?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  the  fault  lies  in  the  want  of  facilities,  doctor? 
A.  I  do,  and  the  Board  of  Regents  is  fully  aware  of  the  inadequacy 
of  the  arrangement. 

Q.  Have  they  been  trying  to  remedy  it?  A.  We  have  been  dis¬ 
cussing  plans  and  taking  them  under  advisement  as  to  whether  the 
present  store  room  should  not  be  made  a  central  kitchen.  You  must 
get  it  clearly  in  your  minds  that  these  complaints  of  the  food  do  not 
come  from  the  buildings  which  I  have  constructed.  That  main 
kitchen  and  the  dining  room  the  Board  of  Regents  for  two  years  or 
more  have  considered  whether  we  should  not  take  the  present  store 
room  and  make  a  kitchen  for  the  white  men,  and  put  the  store  room 
elsewhere.  The  mistake  was  made  in  making  that  kitchen  a  part 
of  the  central  building.  There  should  have  been  an  air  space  be¬ 
tween  the  portion  represented  by  the  kitchen,  the  dining  room  and 
the  chapel  and  the  amusement  room.  They  should  have  put  that  in 
this  portion  of  the  building.  That  was  a  mistake  in  construction. 
Then  we  would  have  had  an  opportunity  for  expansion  and  growth. 
The  Board  of  Regents  has  gone  to  the  kitchen  and  considered  the 
plan  to  combine  the  chapel  and  the  amusement  hall,  and  try  to 
develop  the  present  chapel  into  an  auxiliary  dining  room  for  white 
men.  I  think  Mr.  Bunch  brought  it  out  as  one  of  the  plans  we  had 
under  contemplation. 

Q.  We  will  take  that  as  a  recommendation. 

Q.  The  want  of  facilities  you  state  is  the  cause  of  the  food  not 
being  as  it  should  be?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  about  the  cleanliness  in  the  kitchen?  A.  Mr.  Bunch 
and  I  have  gone  over  that  matter.  Four  or  five  months  ago  we  con¬ 
sidered  whether  it  would  be  advisable  to  employ  a  man  of  some  dis¬ 
cretion  and  judgment  who  should  first  of  all  be  a  dairyman  for  the 
dairy  and  the  kitchen,  who  would  simply  have  to  go  around,  and 
go  around  and  go  around — not  that  we  did  not  feel  that  such  a 
person  was  needed,  but  it  was  a  question  where  we  could  get  the 
individual  we  wanted. 

Q.  Did  you  employ  Mr.  Earle?  A.  I  employed  Mr.  Earle. 

Q.  Do  you  employ  the  rest  of  the  kitchen  help?  A.  Usually. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  it  is  competent  ?  A.  It  is  the  best  we  have 
been  able  to  get. 

O.  Do  you  think  it  is  kept  as  clean  as  they  can  keep  it? 


385 


A.  We  have  had  complaint  about  that.  I  told  them  to  keep  it 
clean,  and,  as  I  say,  with  all  the  other  duties  upon  them,  it  seems 
to  the  satisfaction  of  the  resident  officers,  and  Mr.  Bunch  and  I  have 
debated  this  question  whether  there  should  not  be  a  man  who  would 
be  a  sanitary  dairyman,  looking  after  not  only  the  dairy,  but  the 
kitchen  and  all  those  things. 

Q.  What  is  your  observation  about  the  running  of  the  dairy,  doc¬ 
tor?  A.  That  dairy  has  been  like  other  things  in  the  institution. 
It  has  been  a  matter  of  slow  development.  It  has  been  evolved  not 
along  the  line  of  economy,  and  the  question  of  the  milkers  was  con¬ 
stantly  a  source  of  worry  and  trouble.  It  has  been  to  the  Board  of 
Regents.  The  class  of  help  that  we  were  given  there  were  just  young 
negro  men  about  town.  Often  they  struck,  and  there  would  be  no¬ 
body  there,  and  there  would  be  no  milking  done.  So,  after  con¬ 
ference  with  Mr.  Bunch,  and  finally  with  the  Board  of  Regents,  and 
we  decided  that  the  very  best  thing  that  we  could  do  would  be  to 
first  put  a  house  over  there  and  employ  negro  women  to  do  the 
milking.  The  objection  was  that  we  did  not  have  the  money  to  put 
up  a  brick  house,  and  we  did  not  like  to  put  negro  women  over 
there  in  a  wooden  house,  if  we  decided  to  pull  down  an  old  shack  we 
had  here  and  put  the  lumber  into  a  building,  but  negro  women  was 
the  scheme.  There  were  reasons  why  we  did  not  like  to  see  negro 
women  of  a  helpless  class  so  remote  from  the  institution.  Finally 
after  that  we  selected  these  negro  men  to  do  the  milking. 

Q.  What  is  your  observation  as  to  the  cleanliness  over  there  of 
the  men  ?  A.  We  have  had  Mr.  Hedgepath  over  there. 

Q.  Have  you  observed  any  uncleanliness?  A.  One  of  the  most 
satisfactory  features  of  the  institution  had  been  the  milk  supply.  I 
regarded  it  as  the  very  best  thing  we  had. 

Q.  Did  any  reports  ever  come  to  you  that  it  was  filthy,  that  milk? 
A.  For  a  long  time  I  used  to  go  to  the  dairy  and  watch  it  strained 
and  all  that. 

Q.  Was  it  ever  reported  to  you,  and  did  you  ever  look  into  it? 
A.  No,  it  was  never  reported  to  me. 

Q.  What  is  your  judgment  of  the  character  of  it?  A.  In  spite 
of  the  criticism  upon  it,  my  honest  opinion  is  that  the  milk  is  of  an 
unusually  good  quality  in  every  respect.  It  is  wholesome  milk. 

Q.  Do  your  patients  relish  it?  A.  I  think  so,  sir. 

Q.  Is  it  watered?  A.  No,  sir.  ’ 

Q.  You  give  it  to  them  in  the  form  of  milk  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  discovered  any  filth  in  the  milk?  A.  No,  sir. 


25— A. 


386 


Dr.  Taylor — The  danger  from  milk  comes  from  the  presence  of 
fever  germs?  Typhoid  fever?  A.  That  is  one  of  the  dangers. 

Q.  That  is  the  principal  one?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  we  fear  in  reference  to  milk?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Has  there  ever  been  a  case  or  an  epidemic  of  typhoid  fever 
in  this  institution  that  could  be  by  any  stretch  of  the  imagination 
put  upon  the  milk?  A.  Every  year  we  have  a  few  cases.  In  the 
time  that  I  have  been  here  there  has  been  only  one  that  I  remember, 
and  that  was  two  years  ago  at  this  time. 

Q.  If  it  was  the  milk  it  would  be  general?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  never  had  a  general  epidemic  here  ?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Confined  to  one  ward  ?.  A.  If  it  was  the  milk  it  would  have 
been  general.  There  has  never  been  any  evidence  that  there  was  any 
pollution  of  the  milk,  or  any  contamination,  or  any  dangerous  germs 
in  the  milk. 

Mr.  Carey — Is  that  true  of  all  the  stuff  that  comes  from  the  farm? 
Is  it  fresh  and  palatable?  A.  If  it  were  not  for  the  farm  and  its 
products  it  would  be  absolutely  impossible,  in  my  opinion,  for  us  to 
get  along  at  all.  We  would  just  simply  have  to  do  what  most  of  the 
Southern  asylums  are  on  the  verge  of  doing,  open  the  doors  and 
turn  the  people  out. 

Q.  How  would  your  farm  stuff  compare  with  what  you  would 
have  to  buy  as  to  quality?  A.  We  can  not  buy  the  same  quality. 

Q.  If  you  could  buy  it  in  the  city,  would  it  be  as  good  as  this? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Are  the  vegetables  served  fresh  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Good  corn?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  grown  on  the  premises?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  that  everything  that  comes  from  the  farm  is  just  as  good 
as  a  farmer  would  get  at  his  home?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  So  far  as  the  raw  material  is  concerned?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  charge  here  that  you  retain  patients  here  who  ought  to 
be  discharged  and  make  them  work  on  the  farm?  Is  there  anything 
in  that?  A.  No,  sir,  nobody  in  this  institution  has  ever  been  forced 
to  work.  If  they  work  it  is  of  their  own  volition,  and  that  entirely. 

Q.  Is  that  a  set  rule?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  For  blacks  and  whites?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  think  now  and  then 
the  only  departure  from  that  is  occasionally  some  colored  women 
would  circulate  among  the  colored  women  and  say  they  should  not 
work.  Whenever  I  have  known  of  that  in  my  department,  I  have 
had  those  women  who  were  stirring  up  strife  locked  up. 


38/ 


Q.  Are  any  of  those  laborers  on  the  farm  forced  to  work? 
A.  No,  sir,  none  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  Is  it  the  rule  that  they  shall  not  be  forced?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  any  case  where  you  are  paying  a  nominal  salary  to 
laborers?  A.  Yes,  sir;  and  we  have  had  some  regularly  hired 
laborers  that  have  been  discharged,  who  worked  on  the  farm  and 
received  full  pay. 

Q.  What  is  your  rule  about  paying  employees  for  their  work  on 
the  farm  ?  A.  All  the  people  who  do  a  little  work  about  the  place 
they  give  a  little  something.  The  man  who  works  with  them  is 
given  a  dollar  to  buy  little  knick  knacks  for  them. 

Q.  Mr.  -  made  complaints  about  not  being  able  to  reach 

you?  A.  Application  was  made  to  me  by  Mr. - .  He  wanted 

to  be  gateman.  I  found  that  in  my  absence  he  had  been  gateman 
over  there,  and  Mr.  Mitchell  said  he  gave  him  no  end  of  trouble. 
He  gave  him  more  trouble  than  anybody  else  that  we  ever  had  there. 
Mr.  Mitchell  put  it  on  the  ground  that  it  would  be  a  personal  favor 
to  him  not  to  appoint  him. 

Q.  You  did  not  think  he  was  fit  for  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  that  your  reason?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  he  retained  after  you  thought  he  ought  to  go  out  of  here? 
A.  When  Mr. - left  he  left  under  those  papers. 

Q.  One  of  those  receipts?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  he  kept  in  here  against  the  wishes  of  his  people,  doctor? 
A.  He  was  not  kept  here  against  the  wishes  of  his  people  to  my 
knowledge.  I  applied  to  his  brother  myself  to  take  him  out  and 
he  would  not  do  it. 

(The  commission  thereupon  adjourned  for  dinner.) 


Columbia,  S.  C.,  18  May,  1909. 

Pursuant  to  adjournment,  the  Commission  met  this  afternoon  to 
resume  the  hearing. 

Present :  The  members  of  the  commission. 

The  Chairman,  presiding. 

Dr.  J.  W.  Babcock,  recalled,  testified  as  follows,  being  examined 
by  Mr.  Carey: 

Q.  Just  as  we  adjourned  before  dinner  you  handed  me  this  re¬ 
lease  of  Mr.  - .  Was  that  when  he  finally  when  out  of  here? 

A.  Yes,  sir,  as  far  as  we  could  understand.  I  applied  to  his  brother. 


388 


Dr.  Thompson  had  applied  to  his  father-in-law.  They  were  notified 
to  have  him  come  home  before  he  got  his  attorneys,  Mr.  Gibbes  and 
Mr.  Prince,  and  they  filed  that  in  the  Attorney-General’s  office.  Mr. 
Lyon  was  entirely  familiar  with  the  case,  and  rather  objected  to  Mr. 

-  going  out  under  that  form.  He  thought  that  it  would  be 

better  to  let  him  institute  habeas  corpus  proceedings,  but  Mr.  Prince 
and  Mr.  Gibbes  agreed  that  he  was  not  to  go  to  Abbeville,  but  he  told 
me  he  went  home  the  next  day. 

Q.  I  notice  that  it  is  dated  November  23,  1908.  Was  that  when 
he  got  out  finally?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  regard  that  as  a  furlough  or  a  discharge?  A.  A 
furlough. 

0.  When  he  did  not  return  in  ninety  days  he  was  discharged  from 
the  institution  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  any  conditions  attached  to  that?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  there  any  trouble  about  Mr.  -  getting  out?  A. 

No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  either  got  out  too  late?  A.  My  recollection  is 

that  Mr.  - himself  testified  that  he  got  out  within  a  month  of 

the  time  of  his  recovery.  Mr. - case  is  rather  different.  There 

you  are  dealing  with  a  man  who  is  suffering  with  a  depleted  con¬ 
dition.  He  is  in  a  very  unstable  mental  condition.  You  gentlemen, 
as  laymen,  must  have  observed  how  nervous  he  was,  and  how  a 
little  excitement  would  bowl  him  over.  Those  are  the  cases  where 
great  caution  is  to  be  exercised. 

0.  Do  you  know  of  any  cases  where  the  proper  parties  have  suf¬ 
ficiently  recovered  to  go  out?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I  know  of  two  cases.  I 
know  a  case  of  a  colored  man  and  his  wife.  They  got  under  a 
religious  spell,  underwent  a  period  of  fasting,  and  in  the  meanwhile 
felt  that  they  were  in  close  communion  with  the  Almighty,  and 
thought  they  received  orders  from  him  to  sacrifice  their  child.  So, 
they  cut  the  child’s  throat  with  the  understanding  that  the  child 
was  to  be  restored  to  life  at  the  end  of  three  days.  They  were  ar¬ 
rested  and  put  in  jail,  and  I  think  properly  committed  to  the  asylum. 

Q.  Are  they  in  here  yet?  A.  They  are  in  here.  My  opinion  has 
been  for  a  long  while,  and  I  have  advocated  it  to  legal  members  of 
the  General  Assembly,  that  when  a  case  is  to  be  committed  to  the 
asylum  for  a  homicide,  or  for  escape  from  a  penalty  of  crime,  that 
those  cases  ought  always  to  be  committed  by  the  circuit  judge. 

Q.  We  will  take  that  along  with  your  recommendations?  A. 
And  that  they  be  discharged  by  a  vote  of  the  General  Assembly. 


3«9 


Q.  Are  they  committed  in  that  way?  A.  By  the  circuit  judge? 

Q.  Many  criminals?  A.  No,  but  the  feeling  in  that  community 
was  that  those  people  had  been  good  citizens.  They  are  well,  and 
I  have  been  talking  it  over  with  Mr.  Gless  whether  it  would  not  be 
better  to  give  them  a  trial  at  home,  there  being  no  law  in  such 
matters.  These  homicide  cases,  these  cases  where  they  feel  they  have 
received  a  communication  from  God,  are  the  most  dangerous  type  of 
insanity.  You  may  recall  this  phase  in  the  Guiteau  case,  when  he 
murdered  President  Garfield. 

Q.  Do  you  think  they  ought  to  be  out?  A.  They  have  recovered 
as  much  as  they  ever  will  recover.  They  have  been  here  three  or 
four  years.  I  think  the  public  opinion  in  their  own  community 
would  receive  them  favorably  for  a  trial. 

Q.  Have  they  asked  to  be  released?  A.  O,  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  there  anybody  else  in  here  now?  A.  No;  I  just  recollect 
those  two  cases. 

0.  Do  you  recollect  the  case  of - ?  A.  Yes,  sir;  he  has, 

Mr.  Carey,  recurrent  mania.  He  gets  excitable. 

Q.  Mania  ?  A.  He  has  recurrent  attacks. 

Q.  What  form?  A.  He  had  homicidal  tendency;  he  gets  violently 
excited  at  times. 

Q.  Has  he  ever  applied  to  get  out?  A.  Yes,  I  think  so. 

Q.  He  is  one  that  it  is  claimed  is  kept  here  unjustly.  What  have 
you  to  say  about  that?  A.  His  case  differs  in  that  he  has  recurrent 
attacks  of  insanity.  We  have  another  young  man  who  has  recurrent 

mania.  He  killed  his  father.  I  think  Mr. - killed  his  brother- 

in-law. 

Q.  Is  there  any  disposition  on  the  part  of  the  Board  of  Regents 
to  retain  them  after  they  reach  a  point  where  they  can  get  out?  A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  They  are  always  willing?  A.  O,  yes,  sir.  The  board  is  more 
than  willing  to  let  them  go. 

Q.  Is  there  any  difficulty  about  furloughs  where  the  people  are 
willing  to  take  the  risk?  A.  None,  sir.  In  fact,  but  for  that  method, 
we  would  be  very  much  more  crowded  than  we  are. 

Q.  You  let  them  out  as  fast  as  you  feel  that  you  safely  can  do  so? 
A.  Yes,  sir ;  faster  than  we  can  recommend  it.  I  don’t  know  that 
that  form  absolves  us  absolutely  from  responsibility,  but  it  is  a 
record  here  that  we  have  not  considered  the  individuals  prepared  to 
go  out. 

Q.  Is  it  your  custom  always  to  require  it,  or  is  it  just  in  cases 


390 


where  you  ought  to  require  it?  A.  Just  in  cases  that  we  think  it 
advisable.  I  call  your  attention  to  the  facts  in  the  case  of  an  aged 
woman  suffering  from  melancholia.  She  was  here  and  her  family 
insisted  upon  taking  her  out.  We  could  not  recommend  it,  so  they 
signed  this,  and  within  two  weeks  after  going  home  she  drowned 
herself  in  a  well.  This  is  our  record  that  wTe  did  not  approve  of  that 
discharge.  That  may  not  absolutely  absolve  us  from  responsibility, 
but  it  is  an  evidence  of  the  fact  that  we  do  not  recommend  the  dis¬ 
charge  of  the  patient. 

Q.  If  I  understand  you,  you  do  not  always  require  it?  A.  O,  no, 
only  in  trial  cases. 

Q.  If  you  think  a  party  is  sufficiently  recovered  to  go  without  a 
furlough,  that  is  not  used?  A.  Not  used. 

The  Chairman — Will  you  put  in  evidence  the  records  from  1897 
to  1908,  and  show  how  many  were  sent  out  as  recovered,  not  on 
furlough,  but  recovered?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Carey — I  want  to  ask  you  if  there  is  anything  like  dis¬ 
crimination  against  patients  in  this  institution— in  favor  of  families? 
A.  Favoritism  ? 

Q.  Yes,  sir.  A.  Mr.  Carey,  as  far  as  I  know,  after  very  careful 
deliberation,  there  has  been  no  favoritism. 

Q.  None?  A.  The  patients  are  classified  by  their  mental  con¬ 
dition. 

Q.  Do  you  separate  them  as  far  as  your  accommodations  will 
allow?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  more  violent  are  placed  to  themselves?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  about  the  idiots  and  the  epileptics  ?  A.  The  epileptics  are 
placed  together  as  far  as  possible,  not  absolutely.  Of  course,  that 
is  one  of  the  questions  that  we  have  been  contending  with.  I  think 
this  institution  is  as  free  from  favoritism  as  it  is  possible  for  such 
an  institution  to  be. 

Q.  Do  they  eat  the  same  food  practically?  A.  Yes,  sir.  This 
question  of  what  is  called  the  little  pay  room  and  the  big  pay  room — 
these  pay  rooms  are  not  qualified  by  the  payment,  and  in  the  white 
male  department  there  is  absolutely  no  discrimination  whatever. 

Q.  Is  the  food  prepared  in  the  same  kitchen?  A.  Not  for  the 
white  women. 

Q.  Is  the  food  in  the  little  pay  room  and  the  big  pay  room  the 
same?  A.  Just  a  little  bit  better.  Those  conditions  I  found  here 
and  I  have  never  interfered  with  them.  Mr.  Bunch  and  I  found 


391 


them  here,  and  we  have  never  made  any  departure  from  it  since  we 
came. 

Q.  Are  they  actually  pay  patients  that  go  into  those  rooms,  doctor  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Why  assigned  to  them?  A.  Very  often  because  they  are 
from  the  upper  classes,  and  the  class  that  expects  a  little  more. 

Q.  The  upper  class?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  far  as  the  question  of  pay  is  concerned,  as  I  understand  it, 
there  are  not  many  of  the  actual  pay  patients  in  here.  A.  No.  I 
think  when  I  came  here  in  round  numbers  the  income  from  pay 
patients  amounted  to  about  ten  thousand  dollars.  Since  then  it  has 
dropped.  Very  often  it  is  not  much  over  five  thousand  dollars. 

O.  That  you  realize  from  pay  patients?  A.  And  I  make  it  my 
business  to  assure  people  that  there  is  no  discrimination  on  the  basis 
of  pay. 

Q.  Have  there  been  any  reports  from  the  inferior  departments  of 
the  institution  that  such  things  have  been  going  on — favoritism?  A. 
I  have  never  heard  of  any  favoritism. 

Q.  No  reports  to  that  effect  have  been  called  to  your  attention  by 
the  patients  or  their  friends?  A.  As  far  as  the  classification  is 
concerned.  It  is  very  hard  for  the  doctor  in  making  his  rounds 
not  to  have  his  attention  directed  a  little  more  to  one  patient  than 
to  another,  and  to  speak  to  one  patient  a  little  more  than  to  another. 
We  are  all  weak  enough  to  pet  some  one  unusually  unfortunate 
patient.  As  to  myself,  if  a  patient  is  in  here  insane,  and  coupled 
with  the  insanity  is  blind,  I  never  allow  myself  to  pass  that  person 
without  singling  him  or  her  out  and  saying  “good  morning,  how 
do  you  do,”  or  something  of  that  kind.  I  don’t  know  whether  any¬ 
body  else  is  afflicted  with  that  sort  of  favoritism,  but  I  plead  guilty. 

Q.  The  last  of  the  charges  against  the  institution  is  that  you 
are  neglectful  in  regard  to  the  examination  of  patients  in  here  to 
ascertain  if  they  are  able  to  get  out?  What  have  you  to  say?  A. 
I  don’t  know  that  there  is  neglect  of  that.  I  think  with  more 
physicians  we  could  do  better  clinical  work  than  at  least  I  have  been 
able  to  do.  I  am  speaking  for  myself. 

Q.  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  you  do  make  examinations  ?  A.  We  make 
examinations.  I  make  them  according  to  their  indications,  and  direct 
the  other  physicians  to  do  the  same  thing. 

Q.  Do  you  make  them  with  a  view  of  restoring  the  patient?  A. 
We  do  that.  We  do  that  as  much  as  possible. 

Q.  What  about  the  question  of  restoration?  Do  many  of  them 


392 


recover?  A.  You  will  find  that  opinions  on  that  subject  differ  very 
greatly. 

O.  What  is  yours  ?  A.  My  idea  about  an  attack  of  acute  insanity, 
for  instance,  to  bring  it  home,  if  mv  little  girl  were  to  have  an 
attack  of  acute  insanity,  and,  in  the  course  of  six  or  eight  months, 
were  to  recover,  I  should  want  that  child  to  stay,  if  she  had  grown 
to  young  womanhood,  I  should  want  her  to  remain  in  that  asylum 
from  a  year  to  eighteen  months  after  she  had  seemed  to  be  well,  for 
this  reason,  that  the  brain  is  the  most  delicate  organism  of  the  body, 
and  when  it  has  so  far  lost  its  integrity  that  it  is  necessary  to  place 
an  individual  in  an  asylum,  and,  by  the  mercy  of  God,  more  than  by 
the  skill  of  the  doctor,  that  unfortunate  one  has  been  restored,  to 
use  your  word,  I  don't  think  that  individual  ought  to  be  exposed  to 
the  wear  and  tear  of  ordinary  everyday  life  for  a  good  long  period 
of  time.  In  a  crude  way  I  might  compare  it  to  a  man  who  has 
fractured  his  leg.  A  man  breaks  his  leg  and,  in  common  language, 
the  bones  do  not  knit,  and  the  straps  are  taken  off  of  that  person ; 
what  rest  could  he  have  before  he  began  to  walk?  And  if  it  is  true 
of  a  fractured  legbone,  why  it  is  very  much  more  true  of  a  delicate 
mind,  the  most  delicate  piece  of  mechanism,  as  far  as  we  know,  in 
the  universe.  I  think  they  should  rest  for  a  long  time. 

Q.  Do  you  think,  as  far  as  these  are  concerned,  that  they  remain 
in  here  long  enough?  A.  I  think  all  asylums  make  the  mistake  of 
sending  the  patients  out  too  early. 

Q.  You  don’t  approve  of  this  furlough  system  very  much,  do 
you?  A.  I  do  and  I  do  not.  I  do  because  it  relieves  the  pressure 
here,  but  if  that  individual  were  a  kinsman  of  mine  I  should  want 
them  to  rest  longer  than  the  average  patient  is  retained  in  the  asylum 
for  a  permanent  recovery. 

Q.  Could  you  give  us  the  percentage  of  recoveries,  the  average? 
A.  I  think  it  runs  from  twenty-five  per  cent,  on  of  the  admissions. 

Q.  What  is  your  death  rate?  A.  It  is  high.  Always  has  been.  It 
is  the  history  of  the  institution. 

Mr.  Bates — What  was  the  mortality  last  year?  A.  It  was  rather 
high  last  year.  I  cannot  give  the  figures  offhand. 

Q.  I  notice  in  the  report  257?  A.  I  think  about  that. 

Q.  That  is  for  1907.  I  want  to  know  the  number  of  them  for 
1908?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  We  haven’t  been  able  to  get  hold  of  the  report?  A.  It  is  in 
the  hands  of  the  printer. 

Q.  How  came  it  to  be  delayed?  A.  It  was  delayed  largely  by 


393 


me.  There  were  a  great  many  questions  which  1  wished  to  discuss 
in  that  report,  which  I  wanted  to  discuss,  and  I  did  not  know  just 
how  to  discuss  them. 

Q.  Can  you  have  it  ready  in  time  for  us  to  see  it?  A.  Surely. 
1  went  to  see  Mr.  Bryan  yesterday,  and  he  told  me  he  was  running 
it  out  then. 

Q.  That  is  your  annual  report?  A.  I  did  not  get  it  in  in  time  for 
the  Legislature  this  year. 

Q.  Did  you  go  before  the  Ways  and  Means  Committee?  A.  I 
did  in  the  Senate. 

Q.  Did  you  lay  it  before  them?  A.  Yes,  sir.  Dr.  Ray  and  I  did 
as  best  we  could. 

Q.  How  much  did  you  ask  for?  A.  $180,000.00  for  mainten¬ 
ance,  $30,000.00  for  improvements  and  repairs,  $25,000.00  to  furnish 
the  new  building,  $1,200.00  for  the  Regents,  and  I  think  $500.00  for 
fire  protection. 

Q.  What  did  they  give  you?  A.  $180,000.00  for  maintenance, 
$5,000.00  for  improvements  and  repairs,  and  $1,200.00  for  the  Re¬ 
gents.  I  think  that  is  all. 

0.  They  did  not  give  you  any  for  fire  protection?  A.  I  think 
not. 

Mr.  Bunch — I  think  you  have  overlooked  the  matter  of  insurance? 
A.  I  think  there  was  an  item  of  $500.00  for  insurance. 

Mr.  Harden — How  much  did  you  ask  the  Finance  Committee  for 
for  repairs?  A.  Thirty  thousand  dollars.  I  think  they  had  cut  that 
out  altogether  in  the  House,  and  I  think  we  told  the  Finance  Com¬ 
mittee  that  if  they  could  not  give  us  thirty  thousand  to  get  us  ten, 
and  if  they  could  not  give  11s  ten,  to  give  us  at  least  five  thousand. 

Q.  They  gave  you  five?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  remember  you  and  Dr. -  A.  Ray. 

Q.  Five  thousand  was  the  amount  you  got?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Carey — Who  put  up  the  new  buildings?  A.  Mr.  Carey,  that 
matter  has  fallen  upon  me  from  dire  necessity.  From  1869  to  1897 
almost  annually  the  question  was  left  to  the  General  Assembly  to 
give  the  means  of  putting  up  a  brick  building  for  the  negro  men. 
My  recollection  is  that  Dr.  Parker  asked  for  that  in  1869.  When  I 
came  here  those  negro  men  were  in  wooden  buildings.  They  were 
regular  fire  traps.  And  when  we  could  not  get  a  cent,  we  first  made 
brick  here.  We  excavated  and  got  a  supply  of  clay  on  the  place,  and 
we  made  brick  with  our  colored  men.  It  was  an  inferior  quality. 
We  got  permission  from  the  Legislature  to  employ  convict  labor. 


394 


After  that  we  made  a  contract  with  Colonel  Lipscomb  to  make  brick. 
Between  others  and  myself  we  got  together,  say  from  1893  to  1897, 
something  like  two  and  a  half  to  three  million  brick.  In  1897  the 
Board  of  Regents  asked  the  General  Assembly  to  give  them  ten  thou¬ 
sand  dollars  to  start  that  brick  building  for  negro  men,  and  the 
Ways  and  Means  Committee  of  the  House  sent  for  me  and  asked 
me  if  we  would  not  be  willing  to  start  the  building  with  five  thou¬ 
sand  dollars,  and  I  said,  “Gentlemen  this  has  been  before  you  about 
thirty  years.  We  cannot  make  a  beginning  with  five  thousand  dol¬ 
lars,  and  we  cannot  make  very  much  of  a  showing  with  ten  thousand 
dollars.”  “Well,”  they  said,  “will  you  undertake  to  begin  it  with 
seven  thousand  five  hundred  dollars,”  and  I  says,  “We  will  have  to 
do  it.” 

O.  What  year  was  that?  A.  1897. 

Q.  Is  that  the  building,  the  Parker  building?  A.  That  building. 
With  the  seven  thousand  five  hundred  dollars  we  put  those  brick  to¬ 
gether.  There  was  not  anything  left  for  an  architect,  and  the  board 
says  go  ahead  and  do  the  best  you  can,  and  make  the  money  go  as 
far  as  you  can.  That  let  it  devolve  on  me  to  plan  that  building,  and 
I  started  to  work  on  it,  and  that  is  the  way  I  started  into  this  thing 
of  putting  up  the  buildings. 

Q.  Is  that  the  Parker  building?  A.  It  got  up  in  the  year  and  the 
money  was  gone,  and  I  went  to  Ellerbe  and  I  said:  “We  have  got 
it  up  in  the  air,  and  the  money  is  gone,  and  if  we  leave  it  six  months 
it  is  going  to  be  ruined  by  the  weather.”  And  he  says :  “How  long 
have  you  been  waiting  for  it?”  and  I  said  “Twenty-seven  or  twenty- 
eight  years.”  He  says :  “It  is  unconstitutional,  but,”  he  says,  “go 
ahead  and  put  a  roof  on  the  building,  and  I  will  lay  it  before  the 
General  Assembly  with  you.”  In  that  way  the  building  was  put 
under  roof,  and  when  the  General  Assembly  met  they  gave  us 
thirteen  thousand  five  hundred  dollars,  in  all  twenty-one  thousand 
dollars  for  that  Parker  building. 

Q.  That  is  what  it  cost?  A.  Not  what  is  cost,  but  that  is  what 
the  appropriation  was  for  it. 

Q.  When  did  you  build  it?  A.  In  a  little  over  a  year  from  the 
time  we  started  the  work  on  it. 

Q.  Is  that  the  Taylor  building?  A.  No;  the  Parker  building, 
because  Dr.  Parker  had  urged  its  erection  in  1869. 

Q.  Colored  men  in  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  put  up  another  new  building?  A.  The  Taylor  building. 

Q.  That  is  a  building  for  women?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


395 


Q.  Just  about  Completed?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  does  the  putting  up  of  that  building  relieve  your  con¬ 
gested  condition  so  far  as  women  are  concerned  ?  A.  White  women. 

Q.  You  have  ample  accommodations  for  them  now?  A.  Well, 
we  would  have  ample  accommodations  if  it  was  furnished  as  it  ought 
to  be.  We  have  got  the  space,  if  it  was  only  furnished. 

Q.  What  did  these  buildings  cost?  A.  I  will  have  to  give  it  to 
you  approximately,  and  I  would  like  for  Mr.  Bunch  to  correct  me 
if  I  am  in  error  as  to  the  amounts.  I  should  say  the  Taylor  building 
cost  something  like  thirty-seven  or  forty  thousand  dollars.  Forty 
thousand  dollars,  I  would  say.  And  the  new  building  cost  about 
fifty  or  fifty-five  thousand  dollars,  say  sixty  thousand  dollars. 

Q.  That  is  the  North  building?  A.  That  is  the  North  building. 

Q.  For  women?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  rooms  in  the  new  building?  A.  There  will  be  ac¬ 
commodations  for  a  hundred  patients  in  there. 

Q.  The  Taylor  building?  A.  We  have  886  in  there  today. 

Q.  And  there  are  accommodations  for  one  hundred  in  the  new 
building?  A.  I  will  correct  that  a  little  bit.  It  is  a  two-story  build¬ 
ing.  You  gentlemen  are  familiar  enough  with  the  history  of  school 
building.  For  the  sake  of  fire  protection  a  school  building  is  never 
over  two  stories  high,  and  that  applies  not  only  to  school  buildings 
and  hospitals,  but  to  insane  asylums.  You  can  handle  a  crowd  of  in¬ 
sane  people  in  a  two-story  building.  When  you  come  to  three  or 
four  stories  you  increase  the  danger,  the  fire  risk,  very  much. 

The  Chairman — Is  this  price  the  actual  money  spent  on  them  ?  A. 
As  near  as  Mr.  Bunch  and  I  can  figure  it  out. 

Q.  Twenty-one  thousand,  forty  thousand  and  sixty  thousand?  A. 
That  leaves  out  the  Taylor  building.  I  should  say  that  cost  about 
twenty-five  thousand.  The  principal  reason,  Mr.  Chairman,  that 
this  construction  has  been  done  as  economically  as  it  has  been 
done  was  because  we  employed,  as  far  as  possible,  the  help  of  the 
negro  male  patients  for  hod-carriers,  excavations  and  things  of  that 
sort.  That  labor  has  been  utilized  in  all  of  these  buildings. 

Q.  The  price  you  have  mentioned  includes  just  the  amount  that 
you  paid  out  ?  A.  The  actual  cost. 

Mr.  Ba^es — The  Talley  building  cost  forty  thousand  dollars?  A. 
I  would  say  from  thirty-seven  to  forty  thousand  dollars. 

Q.  How  much  did  the  woman’s  building  cost?  A.  I  think  about 
fifty-five  thousand  dollars. 

Q.  Then  there  is  another  building?  A.  The  Taylor  building  cost 


396 


about  twenty-five  thousand  dollars  and  the  Parker  building  cost 
about  twenty-one  thousand  dollars. 

Mr.  Hardin — If  you  had  let  those  buildings  out  to  architects,  do 
you  think  you  would  have  had  as  acceptable  buildings  as  you  have? 
A.  I  have  had  no  experience  with  architects.  The  difference  is  this : 
Take  this  last  building.  That  is  all  worked  out  from  the  inside.  You 
know  the  English  rule  is  that  when  an  asylum  is  going  to  be  built, 
they  get  the  most  experienced  asylum  doctor  that  they  can  get,  and 
then  they  get  the  most  experienced  asylum  architect,  and  then  they 
make  them  work  it  out  together.  The  doctor's  point  of  view  of  a  hos¬ 
pital  is  entirely  different  from  the  architect’s  point  of  view1,  and  these 
buildings  that  I  put  up  here  are  simply  worked  out  from  the  inside. 
I  have  no  doubt  but  that  architecturally  they  are  defective.  They  are 
not  pretty  to  look  at,  but  they  are  worked  out  honestly  from  within 
for  the  purpose  of  the  particular  class  that  has  been  assigned  to  them. 
I  don’t  know  whether  I  make  my  point  clear.  A  doctor  who  lives  in 
a  hospital  has  an  entirely  different  idea  of  what  a  hospital  ought  to 
be  from  the  architect’s  idea,  who  comes  at  it  from  the  outside,  and 
who  wants  to  have  the  building  of  a  certain  architectural  style  of 
architecture. 

Q.  It  is  on  the  plan  of  a  modern  hospital.  I  notice  that  the  cor¬ 
ridors  are  a  good  deal  like  those  of  Johns  Hopkins.  I  was  intimate 
with  them  for  years?  A.  Those  buildings  are  worked  out  for  the 
particular  spot  of  ground  they  occupy  a  little  bit  regardless  of  other 
institutions.  That  Talley  building,  for  instance,  is  suitable  for  the 
class  of  patients  in  it  in  Columbia.  S.  C.  The  trouble  about  this 
great  mass  of  brick,  that  is  the  center  building,  and  these  wings,  is 
that  this  building  was  planned  for  Trenton,  New  Jersey,  and  the 
officers  and  this  Board  of  Regents,  through  Dr.  Kirkbride,  who  was 
a  great  asylum  builder,  furnished  the  plans  for  the  asylum,  and  he 
had  just  finished  the  plans  for  the  Trenton,  N.  J.,  asylum,  and 
instead  of  saying,  here  is  a  town  six  hundred  miles  further  south 
than  Trenton,  and  wants  something  different,  he  gave  them  a  dupli¬ 
cate  here  of  the  Trenton,  N.  J.,  hospital  for  the  hospital  here  in  South 
Carolina.  Take  these  windows  set  in  the  hospital  ward.  A  lot  of 
them  have  been  changed.  It  has  been  done  very  gradually.  The 
sash  is  cast  iron  and  stationary,  so  that  all  down  through  these 
decades  in  the  hot  summer  these  patients  in  this  hospital  have  boiled 
for  that  reason.  These  buildings,  as  I  said,  are  worked  out  for  the 
spot  of  ground  here  in  the  City  of  Columbia,  S.  C.,  and  they  are 
arranged  regardless  of  other  places.  The  gratings  on  them  are  jail- 


397 


like,  and  an  aesthetic  asylum  doctor  would  shrug  his  shoulders  and 
say  it  was  all  wrong,  and  maybe  it  is,  but  I  have  a  white  woman’s 
ward  equipped  for  this  asylum.  I  have  gone  into  the  sandhills  and 
hunted  for  escaped  patients,  and  it  is  better  to  have  the  feelings 
wounded  by  the  jaillike  gratings  than  to  tramp  out  in  the  sandhills 
chasing  a  patient  who  has  made  his  escape  because  the  gratings  are 
defective.  So,  I  am  responsible  for  the  jail-like  condition,  but  it  is 
an  outgrowth  of  an  unhappy  experience  on  my  part. 

Mr.  Carey — How  many  are  these  new  buildings  designed  to 
accommodate,  the  Taylor  building,  for  instance?  A.  If  it  was  com¬ 
pleted — it  is  only  the  center  part  and  one  wing — but  it  will  accom¬ 
modate  something  like  125  or  140  patients. 

Q.  How  much  did  it  cost  to  build  it?  A.  As  far  as  it  is  now,  I 
think  between  twenty  and  twenty-five  thousand  dollars. 

Q.  What  is  the  accommodation  of  the  Talley  building?  A.  It 
has  88;  it  is  completed. 

Q.  It  has  its  capacity?  A.  Yes,  sir;  we  can  crowd  in  a  hundred, 
and  in  time  we  will  probably  have  to  do  it. 

The  Chairman — How  many  can  the  other  buildings  accommodate 
now  as  they  stand,  Taylor  building?  A.  I  would  rather  find  out 
just  how  many  are  in  there  today. 

Q.  How  many  is  it  designed  to  accommodate?  A.  When  it  is 
built? 

Q.  I  mean  now.  It  can  comfortably  accommodate  how  many  at 
this  time?  A.  About  sixty — between  sixty  and  seventy. 

Mr.  Carey — As  far  as  white  women  are  concerned,  you  have  ample 
accommodations,  so  far  as  space  is  concerned,  is  that  correct?  A. 
As  far  as  space  is  concerned,  the  white  women’s  department  is  in 
fairly  good  condition,  but  you  must  always  keep  in  mind,  in  making 
comparisons,  that  they  average  more  white  females  than  males  and 
others. 

Q.  They  come  in  more  rapidly?  A.  Yes,  sir;  and  they  have 
resistance. 

Q.  They  live  longer?  A.  Yes,  sir;  they  have  greater  resistance. 
They  don’t  have  the  apoplexy  and  the  paralysis  and  those  other 
forms  of  insanity  to  which  men  are  subject. 

Mr.  Bunch — I  think  Dr.  Babcock  overlooked  the  Dix  Cottage, 
and  in  connection  with  that  the  spur  track  of  railroad. 

Mr.  Carey — What  about  that?  A.  This  is  what  is  called  the 
annex.  It  is  a  two-story  annex  put  up  to  relieve  the  pressure  as  much 


398 


as  possible.  They  authorized  me  to  take  Page  Ellington  and  put 
two  more  stories  there. 

Q.  What  about  the  Dix  Cottage?  A.  When  the  Dix  Cottage 
was  opened  it  was  a  blessing  to  us.  It  was  the  old  Wallace  home, 
which  was  remodeled  for  the  purpose  of  receiving  white  women. 

Q.  Women?  A.  White  women.  If  you  will  allow  me  to  say  so, 
the  Wallace  property  cost  the  State  of  South  Carolina  four  thousand 
dollars  a  year  for  six  years,  and  the  Dix  Cottage  has  paid  that  in 
a  manifold  degree.  We  average  about  thirty  white  women.  We 
try  to  keep  the  usual  convalescent  class  over  there,  and  for  twelve 
years  or  thirteen  years  that  building  has  been  a  blessing  to  the  white 
women  who  have  come  here  from  time  to  time. 

Q.  Have  you  kept  the  Legislature  advised  as  to  your  needs  out 
here  in  your  reports?  Have  you  been  asking  for  these  things?  A. 
There  the  reports  are.  I  would  like  to  say  that  I  am  not  robust, 
and  I  do  not  consider  that  it  comes  within  the  line  of  my  duty  to 
go  down  to  the  State  House  and  pull  the  honorable  members  of  the 
General  Assembly  out  of  their  seats  to  listen  to  the  needs  of  the 
asylum,  but  when  they  come  into  the  front  gate,  then  they  are  our 
legitimate  prey,  and  we  can  talk  to  them,  and  we  do. 

Q.  The  Committee  is  your  legitimate  prey?  A.  If  they  don’t 
come  here.  They  don’t  ask  me. 

Q.  Why  don’t  you  go  to  them?  A.  I  don’t  consider  that  my 
business. 

Q.  You  appear  before  the  Committee  on  the  Insane  Asylum,  do 
you  not?  A.  Yes,  sir,  whenever  they  have  asked  me. 

Q.  Before  the  Ways  and  Means?  A.  When  they  ask  me.  They 
did  not  ask  me  last  year. 

Q.  You  did  not  go  before  the  Ways  and  Means?  A.  They  did 
not  ask  me. 

Q.  In  your  reports,  do  you  ask  for  things,  in  your  annual  reports? 
A.  I  am  not  much  of  a  man  to  write.  The  Board  of  Regents  looks 
after  those  things  as  best  they  can,  and  I  do  the  best  I  can. 

Q.  The  point  I  want  to  get  at  is  this:  If  you  wanted  anything, 
why  did  you  not  ask  for  it  ?  A.  They  gave  me  an  opportunity  to  say 
just  what  I  wanted  to  say.  When  I  came  here  the  previous  ad¬ 
ministration  had  been  assailed  on  the  ground  of  extravagance.  Dr. 
Griffin  was  severely  criticized  because  he  hired  an  accomplished  cook 
to  come  here  and  take  charge  of  the  kitchen,  and  paid  him  fifty 
dollars  a  month.  I  thought  that  was  one  of  the  accusations  against 
Dr.  Griffin.  At  least,  I  was  told  so  by  a  prominent  official  in  South 


399 


Carolina.  So  that  my  administration  started  with  the  idea  that  the 
money  that  was  supplied  for  this  institution  must  be  made  to  go 
just  as  far  as  possible,  and  the  Board  of  Regents  have  been  handi¬ 
capped  with  that  same  tradition,  that  we  must  get  down  to  bedrock 
and  manage  to  scuffle  along,  and  Mr.  Bunch  and  I  must  go  to  this 
government  sale  and  that  auction  sale,  and  stand  around  until  we 
could  pick  up  bargains  and  make  this  money  go  as  far  as  possible. 
So,  that  is  the  spirit  under  which  we  had  to  labor.  I  am  speaking 
for  myself  and  how  I  had  to  labor.  This  money  that  is  sent  to  the 
asylum  comes  from  the  people,  from  so  many  taxpayers,  and  it  is  by 
the  special  providence  of  God  that  you  get  a  penny,  and  when  you 
get  it,  get  down  on  your  knees  and  thank  God,  and  make  it  go  as 
far  as  possible ;  but,  above  all  things,  don’t  go  to  the  Legislature  and 
say  you  haven’t  got  a  plenty  of  it. 

Q.  That  has  been  the  policy?  A.  That  has  been  the  policy  under 
which  I  have  had  to  administer. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  is  a  good  policy?  A.  No,  sir;  not  how 
cheaply,  but  how  well. 

Q.  Why  don’t  you  go?  A.  Mr.  Carey,  I  go  and  tell  them.  I  say 
we  have  to  live  under  a  more  or  less  sort  of  poverty.  If  there  is  any 
member  here  that  has  been  on  the  Ways  and  Means  Committee  he 
has  heard  my  story. 

Q.  Individually  you  appeared  before  the  committee?  A.  Yes, 
sir;  the  Ways  and  Means  Committee. 

Q.  Before  the  Finance  Committee  of  the  Senate?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  What  ought  the  appropriation  to  be  ?  A.  I  think  one  hundred 
and  fifty  to  one  hundred  and  sixty  dollars  is  just  as  low  as  an  honor¬ 
able  State  ought  to  try  to  administer  to  the  wants  of  its  insane. 

Q.  A  hundred  and  fifty  dollars  per  capita?  A.  Yes,  sir;  that  is 
the  least. 

Q.  How  much  are  you  getting  now?  A.  As  near  as  I  can  get  at 
it,  one  hundred  and  nine  dollars,  sir. 

Q.  Is  that  outside  of  the  farm  or  do  you  know  about  that? 
A.  That  is  outside  of  the  farm.  My  hundred  and  fifty  dollars  is 
outside  of  the  farm  also. 

Mr.  Bunch — All  the  running  expenses  of  the  farm  comes  out 
of  the  maintenance?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  a  few  questions  about  yourself.  What  de¬ 
partment  do  you  give  your  personal  attention  to?  A.  With  the 
growth  of  this  population — as  long  as  we  kept  down  under  a  thous¬ 
and  patients — I  did  the  best  I  could  to  cover  all  the  ground  and 


400 


keep  the  run  of  them.  But  when  w'e  began  to  climb  up,  and  tine 
population  increased,  then,  with  the  consent  of  the  Board  of  Regents, 
I  took  the  old  building  which  had  some  sixty  or  seventy  white 
women  in  it  and  the  negro  women. 

Q.  About  what  time  did  you  take  charge  of  them?  A.  I 
would  say  five  or  six  years  ago. 

Q.  You  are  still  in  charge  of  them  ?  A.  I  am,  although  the  Board 
of  Regents  are  taking  steps  to  relieve  me  of  it. 

Q.  Do  you  have  any  white  women  under  your  charge  now?  A. 
Yes,  the  Dicks  Cottage. 

Q.  How  many  in  there?  A.  Twenty-seven  in  there  today. 

Q.  The  new  building,  have  you  any  in  there?  A.  I  propose 
to  take  the  new  building,  at  least  if  there  is  no  other  assistant  phy¬ 
sician  appointed. 

Q.  That  is  where  you  have  got  eighty-eight  ?  A.  No.  That 
is  the  Talley  building.  This  building  has  twenty-eight  now,  but 
it  will  eventually  have  a  hundred  patients. 

Q.  How  many  colored  women  do  you  give  attention  to  now, 
doctor?  A.  We  run  on  an  average  of  about  330  or  320. 

Q.  Have  you  any  assistant  in  that  building?  A.  No  medical 
assistant ;  I  have  a  most  efficient  white  woman  as  supervisor. 

Q.  Who  is  she?  A.  Mrs.  Quarles. 

Q.  How  much  of  your  time  does  it  take?  A.  I  go  over  and 
make  my  regular  morning  rounds,  and  then  I  make  my  evening 
rounds. 

Q.  You  go  over  it  twice?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  go  through  that  building  every  day?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  state  is  it  in?  A.  The  colored  women? 

Q.  Are  they  in  fairly  good  condition  or  are  they  crowded  now? 
A.  Crowded ;  we  have  got  sixty  or  seventy  in  cellars. 

Q.  Cellars?  A.  Yes,  sir,  patients;  and  until  a  year  ago,  just 
a  year  ago,  there  was  a  ward  of  white  women  still  kept  over  there 
all  squeezed  in,  and  a  ward  of  negro  women.  There  were  white 
women  over  there  until  the  first  of  last  May. 

Q.  You  haven’t  them  there  now  ?  A.  The  Regents  did  it  a  year 
ago,  but  then  we  were  not  in  position  to  do  that  before  that. 

Q.  The  colored  women’s  accommodations  are  not  ample?  A.  It 
is  not  fair  that  any  single  person  should  be  put  in  a  cellar,  and  that 
is  the  trouble  about  these  building  I  have  put  up.  Now,  with  the  low 
cellar  with  these  other  buildings,  we  have  to  give  as  much  attention 
to  the  cellar  as  to  the  other  stories,  and  the  result  is  that  when 


401 


the  crowd  becomes  overwhelming,  then  we  are  compelled  to  crowd 
these  poor  creatures  into  the  cellars. 

Q.  What  is  the  condition  as  to  cleanliness?  A.  Of  the  old 
building? 

Q.  Yes?  A.  Well,  Mr.  Carey,  there  the  housekeeping  is  done,  as 
I  say,  under  the  supervision  of  an  unusually  intelligent  woman,  and 
in  so  far  as  she  is  able,  she  keeps  that  building  in  good  order. 

Q.  Is  there  any  complaint  about  vermin  and  things  of  that  kind 
over  there?  A.  Vermin  occur,  but  when  they  do  occur  the  wards 
are  overhauled  and  the  attack  is  made  and  it  usually  results  in  the 
defeat  of  the  enemy. 

Q.  Where  do  they  get  their  food  from  ?  A.  The  kitchen  over 
there. 

Q.  Kitchen  over  there?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  same  class  of  food  as  the  others?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  have  you  in  charge  of  that?  A.  The  housekeeper  is 
Mrs.  Dunn. 

Q.  A  white  woman?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  she  at  the  head  of  the  cooking  department?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  the  cooking  ample  over  there?  A.  The  range  that  is  over 
there  was  put  in  in  Dr.  Ensor’s  time,  but  it  was  so  well  made,  and 
so  honestly  made  by  some  Philadelphia  Quakers  that  it  is  better  than 
some  of  the  newer  ranges. 

Q.  They  don’t  use  the  steam  cooking  over  there?  A  No,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  judgment  of  that  ?  A.  Well,  I  think  it  depends 
altogether  on  the  distance  that  you  pipe  your  steam.  I  think  we 
could  do  fairly  good  steam-cooking  if  we  had  the  boiler  nearer.  We 
have  to  pipe  it  several  hundred  feet. 

Q.  In  cooking  with  the  steam  you  think  that  is  the  main  trouble? 
A.  I  think  it  is  not  so  much  the  steam  cooking  but  the  fact  that  the 
steam  is  brought  through  unsatisfactorily,  as  we  have  to  pipe  it 
several  hundred  feet. 

Q.  You  think  it  is  more  in  that  than  in  the  cooking  itself,  do 
you?  A.  I  think  that  you  will  find  that  in  many  hotels  steam  cook¬ 
ing  is  done,  and  done  admirably. 

Q.  What  is  your  custom  about  visiting  other  departments  ?  Some 
complaint  has  been  made  about  that?  A.  Dr.  Saunders  is  the 
youngest  member  of  the  staff,  and  after  taking  care  of  my  own 
patients,  I  have  devoted  my  time  and  attention  to  the  woman’s 
department,  and  done  all  I  could  to  help  her. 

Q.  When  you  are  called  upon  in  the  men’s  department  for  assist- 


26— a. 


402 


ance  or  counsel,  what  is  the  result  then?  A.  I  give  it  to  the  best 
of  my  ability. 

Q.  Are  you  often-  called  upon  by  Dr.  Griffin  and  Dr.  Thomp¬ 
son,  doctor?  A.  I  have  not  been,  but  when  I  am,  I  respond  as 
well  as  I  am  able. 

Q.  Haven’t  you  got  about  three  times  as  much  work  as  you  ought 
to  have?  A.  The  burden  I  have  taken  upon  me  I  have  carried  as 
uncomplainingly  as  a  man  can.  I  have  no  complaint. 

Mr.  Sawyer — Dr.  Thompson  said  that  he  did  not  feel  that  you 
were  in  touch  with  him  over  there  in  that  department?  A.  I  am 
very  sorry  that  Dr.  Thompson  has  had  that  feeling;  I  have  never 
had  that  feeling  towards  him.  I  had  thought  that  the  doctor  and 
I  had  gotten  along  here  very  harmoniously ;  possibly  a  little  fric¬ 
tion  the  first  year  or  two,  but  I  accounted  myself  as  one  of  the 
doctor’s  good  friends,  and  I  certainly  felt  he  was  one  of  mine.  When 
the  troubles  came  upon  me  he  stood  by  me  and  helped  me  to  bear 
them.  At  any  time  when  he  has  had  trouble  I  did  the  best  I  could. 
The  fact  that  we  were  not  in  touch  is  a  revelation  to  me. 

Q.  He  also  stated  that  there  was  a  feeling  among  the  patients  on 
the  white  ward  that  you  were  hard  to  reach  ?  A.  I  did  not  know  it. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  hear  anything  of  that?  A.  If  that  is  so  I  did 
not  know  it. 

Q.  Did  Dr.  Thompson  ever  tell  you  that  such  a  thing  as  that 
existed?  A.  I  don’t  think  so;  I  have  no  recollection  of  his  ever 
telling  me. 

The  Chairman — As  I  understand  your  duties,  as  you  outline  them, 
it  would  be  practically  impossible  for  you  to  give  to  the  men’s 
departments  the  time  that  you  give  to  the  woman’s  departments,  and 
at  the  same  time  look  after  the  general  work  of  the  institution,  would 
it  not?  A.  There  is  a  limit  to  a  man’s  endurance  and  capability.  I 
do  not  think  I  could  cover  the  ground. 

Q.  It  is  absolutely  impossible?  A.  As  long  as  you  put  it  in  that 
way,  please  let  me  state  an  example.  About  the  last  of  November, 
1906,  Dr.  Allen,  who  had  been  the  woman  physician  here  for  a 
dozen  years,  had  to  go  home  by  reason  of  sickness  in  her  family. 
That  put  all  the  women,  some  nine  hundred,  on  me,  and  for  the 
following  six  months  I  had  to  take  care  of  those  nine  hundred 
women.  I  made  my  rounds  twice  a  day  from  the  first  of  November 
until  the  first  of  May.  Fortunately  for  the  institution.  Dr.  Saunders 
was  appointed  by  the  Regents  as  assistant  physician  in  Dr.  Allen’s 
place,  and  she  came  on  duty  the  first  of  May.  I  did  not  realize  how 


heavy  a  burden  it  would  be  to  try  to  take  care  of  nine  hundred 
patients  for  six  months  day  in  and  day  out,  week  in  and  week  out, 
until  then.  Then,  after  Dr.  Saunders  came  here  I  broke  down  and 
had  an  attack  of  fever,  so  that  I  say  that  there  is  a  limit  to  a  man’s, 
at  least,  there  is  a  limit  to  my  powers  of  endurance,  and  I  think  it 
would  be  unsafe  to  the  patients  or  anybody  else  for  me  to  try  to 
cover  the  ground  and  take  care  of  everything  and  the  patients  too. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  the  management  would  take  up  his  whole 
time  if  he  did  it  properly?  A.  If  he  had  nothing  to  do  other  than 
administrative  work  he  would  have  more  than  he  could  keep  up 
with. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  an  institution  where  the  Superintendent  is 
expected  to  do  more  than  that?  A.  No,  sir,  I  do  not. 

Q.  In  addition  to  the  duties  of  Superintendent,  you  are  doing  the 
work  of  the  head  of  one  of  the  other  chief  divisions  on  the  medical 
side,  and  assisting  in  some  of  the  other  departments?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Carey — How  many  more  physicians  do  you  think  ought  to  be 
here?  A.  Well.  I  think  for  the  present  if  we  had  another  assistant 
physician  we  could  get  along  for  the  present? 

Q.  One  more?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  have  the  Regents  power?  A.  They  have  authorized  an 
appointing  committee  to  select  such  a  physician. 

The  Chairman — I  may  have  misunderstood  the  drift  of  Dr. 
Thompson’s  evidence,  but  it  struck  me  that  he  was  not  charging  or 
saying  that  there  was  a  lack  of  desire  on  the  part  of  Dr.  Babcock  to 
co-operate,  or  that  he  was  out  of  personal  touch,  or  that  there  was 
unfriendly  or  personal  feelings,  but  that  there  was  not  that  close 
supervision  by  the  Superintendent  over  his  department  that  he  would 
wish,  that  he  would  like  to  have.  Don’t  you  think,  in  view  of  the 
situation  as  you  have  outlined  it,  that  you  have  not  been  able  to 
give  the  supervision  to  that  department  that  you  would  like  to  give 
it?  A.  That  is  absolutely  true.  I  have  just  as  far  as  my  strength 
has  permitted,  I  have  given  of  it  to  Dr.  Saunders  as  the  youngest 
and  least  experienced  member  of  the  staff.  While  Dr.  Saunders 
is  absolutely  efficient  and  entirely  an  accomplished  all  around  official, 
asylum  official,  yet  I  have  felt  that  in  addition  to  my  other  duties  as 
far  as  my  strength  permitted  I  would  help  her  keep  up  her  side. 

Mr.  Sawyer — Would  it  be  possible  for  you  to  go  into  the  business 
of  killing  bugs  and  lice,  and  go  in  to  see  the  patients  being  bathed? 
A.  It  would  be  possible. 

Q.  Could  you  do  it  and  attend  to  your  other  duties?  A.  I  don’t 


404 


see  how  I  can,  but  if  the  bugs  have  got  possession  of  this  place  to 
the  extent  that  they  have  described  here,  I  have  not  the  slightest 
objection  to  taking  off  my  coat  and  going  in  and  wiping  them  out. 
I  think  I  can  do  that  all  right. 

Q.  Do  you  believe  they  have  possession  as  some  people  still  think  ? 
A.  I  think,  at  least  I  hope,  that  the  conditions  have  been  exag¬ 
gerated. 

Q.  As  to  that  part  of  it?  A.  Yes,  sir,  but  if  the  bugs  are  there 
to  that  extent,  and  nobody  else  has  yet  had  the  inspiration  to  become 
a  modern  St.  George  and  tackle  the  dragon,  if  the  Board  of  Regents 
will  relieve  me  from  my  other  duties,  I  will  be  a  St.  George  and 
tackle  the  bugs. 

The  Chairman — My  idea  that  I  gather  from  your  remarks  is 
that  if  you  could  be  placed  in  position,  to  carry  out  your  figure  of 
speech,  in  the  way  you  would  like,  you  would  be  general  in  command 
of  these  divisions,  and  give  your  orders  whenever  necessary,  instead 
of  being  held  down  to  do  work  that  you  ought  to  have  subordinates 
under  you  to  do,  referring  now  to  the  physicians  you  say  it  is  neces¬ 
sary  to  be  provided  with  here?  A.  Excuse  me,  the  reason  there 
is  no  other  assistant  physician  is  not  the  fault  of  the  Board  of 
Regents.  It  is  no  fault  of  the  Board  of  Regents.  It  is  the  out¬ 
growth  of  the  ideas  of  economy  that  have  been  forced  upon  us. 

Mr.  Carey — Don’t  you  think  you  have  carried  that  a  little  too 
far — economy?  A.  I  think,  in  the  light  of  this  investigation,  which 
I  have  most  earnestly  courted,  and  I  believe  all  the  members  of 
the  Commission  will  give  me  credit  for  putting  absolutely  no  ob¬ 
stacle  in  the  way  of  bringing  out  the  matter  that  has  been  brought 
out — I  think  not  only  the  Board  of  Regents,  but  the  Superintendent 
and  the  General  Assembly  also,  will  acknowledge  the  fact  that  the 
most  honorable  charity  in  their  midst  has  not  received  the  attention 
it  deserves. 

0.  For  want  of  funds?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Sawyer — I  did  not  hear  all  of  Dr.  Thompson’s  testimony,  but 
a  different  impression  was  made  upon  my  mind  than  that  which  was 
made  on  the  Chairman’s  mind.  I  did  not  gather  from  his  testimony 
that  there  was  any  unfriendly  personal  feeling?  A.  There  could 
not  have  been. 

Q.  I  understood  from  his  testimony— I  just  understood  that  he 
felt,  and  he  did  testify  to  that,  and  so  did  Mr.  Mitchell,  that  they 
would  make  complaints  and  reports  to  you  about  nurses  and  attend¬ 
ants,  and  you  would  just  say,  “yes,”  and  they  would  hear  no  more 


4©5 


of  it,  and  his  attention  was  called  to  that  fact  and  he  went  on,  so 
that  he  did  not  mean  to  criticize  you — you  have  testified  that  you 
did  give  more  attention  in  your  capacity  as  Superintendent  to  Dr. 
Saunders’s  department  than  you  did  to  his.  Why  did  you  do  that? 
A.  I  thought  I  made  that  clear  that  Dr.  Saunders  was,  although 
competent  and  efficient  in  every  way,  she  was  a  woman  and  the 
youngest  in  the  service,  and,  therefore,  as  Dr.  Thompson  had  more 
experience  as  an  asylum  physician,  a  longer  experience  than  I  had, 
I  felt  that  he  was  able  to  handle  his  department  with  less  assistance 
from  me  than  a  later  physician. 

Mr.  Hardin — And  you  as  a  gentleman  will  give  the  ladies  the 
preference?  A.  Mr.  Hardin,  I  honestly  admit  that  I  have  paid  more 
attention  to  the  white  women  here  than  I  have  to  any  other  depart¬ 
ment,  but  at  the  same  time  I  do  not  mean  to  apologize  for  it.  With 
two  hundred  more  women  than  white  men,  I  think  they  were  en¬ 
titled  to  the  best  we  had,  and  if  there  has  been  any  mistake  made 
in  giving  them  the  preference,  I  have  made  it,  and  I  am  responsible 
for  it. 

Mr.  Dick — You  spend  practically  two  hundred  thousand  dollars? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  per  cent,  of  the  patients  are  employed  in  work?  A.  I 
should  say  on  an  average  of  forty  to  fifty ;  I  will  say  forty-five. 

Q.  Forty-five?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  is  customary  in  all  other  hospitals  of  this  kind  that  the 
families  of  the  Superintendent  and  the  subordinates  are  provided 
with  the  products  of  the  farm;  do  they  allow  you  that  here?  A.  No 
resident  officer  gets  anything  from  the  institution  without  paying 
for  it.  It  is  charged  to  him,  and  then  when  the  bill  is  rendered 
five  per  cent,  is  added  to  that  for  handling.  We  get  nothing.  If 
a  man  gets  a  bunch  of  radishes,  a  pint  of  milk,  or  anything  like  that, 
he  has  to  pay  for  it.  There  is  absolutely  nothing  of  that  kind. 

Q.  You  allow  no  use  of  cattle  or  anything  of  that  kind  in  here? 
A.  No,  sir,  the  resident  officers  have  their  own  cows.  They  are 
allowed  the  privilege  of  grazing  them  about  the  grounds,  but  they 
are  not  fed  by  the  institution.  There  are  some  little  sheds  built  for 
housing  them. 

Q.  On  what  basis  do  you  make  your  estimate  with  regard  to 
maintenance?  A.  The  experience  of  the  previous  year. 

Q.  Has  the  Legislature  ever  failed  or  refused  to  give  for  that 
particular  branch — maintenance?  A.  If  I  had  the  time  there  is 
nothing  that  would  give  me  more  pleasure  than  to  go  to  the  State 


406 


House  and  dig  out  of  the  reports  the  history  of  the  relation  of  the 
General  Assembly  to  the  institution.  According  to  the  means  I 
think  they  have  done  well. 

Q.  I  mean  for  maintenance?  A.  They  have  not  denied  it.  They 
might  previously  have  cut  down  some  request  for  maintenance,  but 
I  do  not  recollect  it. 

Q.  I  just  want  that  fact  brought  out.  I  am  on  the  Ways  and 
Means  Committee?  A.  This  last  winter  is  the  first  time  since  I 
have  been  here  that  the  Ways  and  Means  Committee  never  sent  for 
me.  Why,  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  You  asked  for  a  hundred  and  seventy  thousand  dollars  a  year 
ago,  and  ten  thousand  more  last  year?  A.  Ten  thousand  more? 

Q.  And  got  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  For  maintenance?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  asked  for  more  medical  aid  from  the  Board  of 
Regents?  A.  That  matter  has  been  discussed,  and  the  only  reason 
it  has  not  been  carried  out  is  from  lack  of  means  to  do  it  with. 

Q.  Is  that  included  in  the  estimate  for  support?  A.  I  don’t 
think  they  have  ever  added  the  cost  of  any  other  physician,  sir.  I 
don’t  recollect. 

Q.  After  you  made  a  request  and  they  put  in  their  estimate  for 
support,  that  you  did  not  get  it?  A.  I  don’t  think  I  understand  the 
question. 

Q.  After  you  made  the  request  of  the  Board  of  Regents  for  med¬ 
ical  aid,  they  did  not  put  that  amount  in  before  the  Legislature,  and 
make  that  request?  A.  I  have  never  made  a  specific  request  of  the 
Board  for  more  medical  aid  and  they  never  gave  it.  The  last  was 
when  Dr.  Griffin  came  here  five  years  ago.  I  don’t  know  that  they 
added  in  Dr.  Griffin’s  salary  at  that  time,  and  that  particular  time. 
Perhaps  they  did,  because  Dr.  Griffin  came  the  first  of  January. 
My  recollection  is  that  he  came  the  first  day  of  January,  1905,  and 
the  presumption  is  that  they  added  this  salary,  but  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  asked  for  more  clerical  aid?  A.  We  have 
added  somewhat  to  our  clerical  aid  the  last  three  or  four  months. 

Q.  You  have  got  all  the  aid  along  that  line  that  you  want,  have 
you?  A.  No,  sir,  I  think  we  want  more  clerical  aid  all  around,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  white  male  patients  in  the  asylum?  A.  We  are 
running  up  to  about  354. 

Q.  Female  white  patients?  A.  Five  hundred  and  twenty. 

Q.  Colored  women?  A.  Three  hundred  and  twenty-nine. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many  patients  in  the  whole  institution  are 


407 


in  mechanical  restraint  today?  A.  I  can  tell  more  definitely  as  to 
the  colored  women.  I  think  we  have  got  more  in  restraint  than  we 
usually  have.  Women  are  rather  violent.  We  usually  have  forty 
or  fifty;  now  fifty-seven. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many  in  the  female  department,  in  the 
white  female  department?  A.  Since  we  have  been  able  to  get  out 
of  doors  the  restraint  has  been  running  higher.  It  is  better  to  put 
them  in  a  straight-jacket  and  let  them  go  out  of  doors  into  the  yard 
than  it  is.  to  restrain  them  in  the  house.  So,  the  restraint  is  from 
forty  to  fifty,  I  should  say. 

Q.  Do  you  think  if  you  had  more  of  the  modern  methods  given 
to  you  by  the  State  and  more  attendants  that  there  would  be  less 
restraint  used,  less  mechanical  restraint?  A.  I  have  worked  long 
enough  in  an  asylum  to.  have  some  convictions  about  restraint.  I 
think  that  restraint  is  often  a  good  therapeutic  measure.  By  that 
I  mean  to  say  that  I  have  patients  who  are  restrained  just  as  a  sur¬ 
gical  case  is  restrained  in  a  hospital.  Mechanical  restraint  is  a 
legitimate  means  of  treatment. 

Q.  I  do  not  mean  to  question  that?  A.  I  understand.  I  say  I 
am  old  fogy  enough  not  to  want  to  advertise  myself  as  a  non¬ 
restraint  asylum  doctor.  I  believe  that  restraint  is  abused  oftentimes, 
but  I  have  not  a  bit  of  sympathy  with  the  doctor  who  goes  and 
gathers  up  all  the  means  of  restraint,  and  goes  out  in  front  of  the 
asylum  and  makes  a  bonfire,  and  gets  an  immense  amount  of  praise 
because  he  was  foolish.  I  have  visited  asylums  in  which  it  was 
advertised  that  restraint  was  not  used  and  seen  a  camesole  in  use. 

Q.  Have  you  an  operating  room  here?  A.  We  have  fixed  up  a 
room  for  the  purpose  of  operation,  but  with  the  demand  we  have 
had  for  bed  rooms,  the  several  rooms  which  have  been  prepared  as 
operating  rooms  have  been  really  used  as  dormitories. 

Q.  Do  you  find  yourself  handicapped  with  a  population  of  this 
kind  to  work  without  an  operating  room  properly  fitted  up?  A.  It 
seems  to  me  that  when  an  asylum  reaches  this  population  there 
should  be  entirely  a  separate  building  for  an  operating  room.  We 
should  have  a  room  that  has  no  communication  with  the  wards. 

Q.  A  separate  infirmary  with  an  operating  room?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Give  us  your  opinion  as  to  the  separation  of  the  institution  as 
to  the  races?  A.  Well,  of  course,  we  have  the  example  of  Virginia 
in  that  matter. 

Q.  We  want  to  get  at  that  from  an  official?  A.  We  have  the 
examples  of  Virginia  and  North  Carolina  before  us  with  their 


408 


asylums  for  negroes  on  the  seaboard,  the  Atlantic  seaboard— in 
Virginia  at  Petersburg  and  in  North  Carolina  at  Greensboro.  The 
negro  population  of  those  two  States  is  somewhat  different  in  geo¬ 
graphic  distribution  from  ours.  There  are  comparatively  few  ne¬ 
groes  in  the  Piedmont  section  and  the  majority  of  the  negroes  are 
on  the  coast.  In  South  Carolina  and  Georgia  the  geography  of 
the  States  is  different  from  North  Carolina  and  Virginia,  and  it 
seems  to  me  that  the  policies  of  the  States  is  much  more  alike,  that 
is,  the  policy  of  South  Carolina  and  Georgia  to  maintain  a  centrally 
located  place,  a  large  colony  for  the  insane — there  are  certain  draw¬ 
backs  to  having  negroes  in  the  same  institution.  For  instance,  if  we 
did  not  have  negroes  Here,  we  would  get  very  much  more  work  out 
of  the  white  men,  and  work  is  a  means  of  leading  to  restoration  to 
health.  There  is  nothing  like  it,  but  with  white  men  the  work  is 
unpopular  because  we  hire  the  negro  man  to  do  the  hauling  out  of 
the  slops,  the  shoveling  of  coal,  and  things  like  that,  so  the  white 
male  patients  are  handicapped  in  not  having  manual  exercise  which 
goes  so  far  towards  promoting  bodily  health.  To  me  that  is  a  very 
strong  argument  in  South  Carolina  for  the  separation  of  the  races 
outside  of  any  other  consideration. 

Mr.  Bunch — What  is  your  experience  with  regard  to  the  manage¬ 
ment  of  negroes  and  white  people?  Do  you  think  that  the  negroes 
are  easier  to  manage  than  white  people  on  account  of  their  previous 
training?  A.  I  think  when  a  negro  is  insane  that  he  becomes  more 
dependent  upon  the  white  man,  upon  the  white  race,  and  while  the 
white  men  in  this  institution  may  have  suffered  from  the  presence 
of  the  negro,  I  think  the  negro  has  been  benefited  by  the  presence 
of  the  white  man.  That  is  what  I  think ;  it  is  very  much  better 
for  the  negro  to  be  near  the  white  man  than  it  is  for  the  white  man 
to  be  near  the  negro.  Your  question  as  to  the  separation  itself  is 
such  a  far  reaching  question.  The  report  of  these  gentlemen  here— r- 
Major  Gooding  came  on  the  Board  in  1883,  and  Capt.  Jones  in 
1886.  I  think  perhaps  those  two  gentlemen  served  on  the  com¬ 
mittee  of  investigation  that  went  to  Aiken,  Florence  and  Lexington 
and  hunted  up  localities  that  might  be  suitable  for  an  asylum  for 
negroes.  I  think  you  will  find  the  record  of  it,  and  these  gentle¬ 
men  will  tell  you  when  they  studied  that  problem.  It  was  long 
before  I  came  here,  and  they  can  tell  you  why  they  reached  the  con¬ 
clusion  they  did. 

Q.  Do  they  give  you  a  private  secretary?  A.  No,  sir. 


409 


Q.  It  is  customary  at  other  institutions  for  the  superintendent  to 
have  one?  A.  Yes,  sir,  when  they  can  afford  it. 

Q.  It  is  essential  that  you  should  have  one?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I 
think  so. 

Q.  Have  you  any  system  of  getting  a  report  from  the  super¬ 
visors  and  different  physicians  each  day?  A.  As  far  as  I  can.  I 
am  in  touch  with  them  all.  The  systematic  written  reports  I  have 
not  gotten  lately.  The  mechanical  department  and  all  that  sort 
of  thing  I  get  their  reports  regularly. 

Q.  Under  the  present  conditions,  you  could  not  overlook  them 
if  you  got  them?  A.  I  think  so.  People  think  I  am  much  nearer 
a  physical  wreck  from  my  work  than  I  am.  I  think  it  is  not  phy¬ 
sically  impossible.  Dr.  Dick,  the  Chairman,  has  said  that  the 
Board  of  Regents  and  the  Superintendent  may  put  in  a  written 
list,  and  Mr.  Bunch  a  written  list  of  suggestions.  I  should  like 
very  much  to  take  up  that  question,  that  big  question — one  of  the 
biggest  that  the  Board  of  Regents  and  your  Commission  will  have  to 
handle ;  that  is,  the  separation  of  the  negroes  and  the  white  people, 
but  for  me  to  sit  and  give  off-hand  the  pros  and  cons  of  that  ques¬ 
tion,  I  do  not  think  I  could  do  that  justice.  I  don’t  want  you  gen¬ 
tlemen  to  think  I  am  evading  the  question. 

Mr.  Harrison — In  reference  to  the  hydrotherapeutic  treatment,  the 
water  treatment,  you  made  some  attempt  to  put  that  in?  A.  We 
have  made  preparations  looking  towards  that  end,  Mr.  Harrison. 

Q.  It  is  in  the  Talley  building?  A.  In  the  Talley  building,  the 
Parker  building  and  the  Taylor  building.  We  have  put  them  all 
there,  and  if  there  is  anybody  to  blame  why  they  have  not  been  put 
in,  I  think  the  blame  is  mine,  for  the  reason  that  I  have  studied 
hydrotherapy  in  asylums,  and  I  think  it  is  an  agency  for  good,  but 
to  do  that  right  here  today,  and  to  do  it  properly,  to  do  it  as  it 
should  be  done,  it  would  require  four  well-trained  bathers  and 
masseurs,  and  each  one  of  them  should  have  a  competent  assistant. 

Q.  Bathers  and  masseurs?  A.  That  would  take  four  for  our 
four  departments.  That  would  make  eight  individuals.  To  get 
those  people  we  would  have  to  pay  them  a  good  deal  more  than  we 
pay  our  supervisors.  What  is  going  to  be  the  effect  of  that?  Here 
is  a  person  who  is  limited  to  a  certain  line  of  duty,  and  here  are 
these  other  people  who  have  been  toiling  here  and  giving  their  life¬ 
blood  to  the  work,  and  who  are  now  getting  small  wages.  You 
gentlemen  get  tired  listening  to  it,  and  I  surely  get  tired  saying 


4io 


that  the  reason  that  these  things  have  not  been  pushed  and  carried 
out  is  what  I  shall  have  to  call  the  unmentionable  sin. 

Q.  I  will  get  you  to  tell  the  Commission  the  effect  of  that  in 
reducing  restraint.  You  could  use  less  restraint  if  you  had  that,  or 
could  you?  A.  We  could  use  less,  but  not  so  very  much  less.  Let 
me  illustrate  what  I  understand  by  restraint.  I  visited  a  very  fa¬ 
mous  asylum  in  New  York  State  some  years  ago.  The  doctor  had 
announced  that  under  no  circumstances  would  he  have  restraint 
used  in  the  institution.  A  man  had  an  attack  of  violent  epileptic 
mania,  and  the  good  doctor  had  four  attendants  two  hours  at  a 
time  holding  this  man,  one  nurse  on  each  arm  and  leg.  Here  was 
a  man  in  violent  excitement  with  an  individual  hanging  on  each  ex¬ 
tremity.  When  I  reached  that  asylum  that  had  been  going  on  for 
three  days,  and  the  whole  male  insane  force  and  the  doctors  were 
exhausted.  Now,  in  my  humble  opinion  if  this  accomplished  phy¬ 
sician  had  simply  sent  in  this  case  for  a  restraining  sheet  or  for 
this  case  a  camesole,  he  would  not  only  have  done  himself  and  his 
institution,  his  insane  force  a  great  favor,  but  above  all  things  he 
would  have  conferred  a  blessing  upon  that  poor  epileptic,  because  I 
am  bound  to  think  that  in  that  length  of  time  the  men’s  violent 
jerking,  some  of  it  must  have  been  due  to  the  irritation  of  manual 
restraint.  I  admit  that  we  use  a  great  deal  of  restraint,  but  I  am 
not  theorist  enough  to  say  through  this  Commission  to  the  people  of 
South  Carolina  that  no  person  should  ever  under  any  circumstances 
be  restrained.  But,  to  come  back  to  your  question,  I  think  there 
are  certain  cases,  I  think  that  there  are  very  many  cases  of  epileptic 
mania  that  would  have  been  soothed  by  putting  them  in  a  bath. 

Q.  Have  they  to  be  restrained  in  that?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  was  going  to  follow  that  question  with  one  as  to  recovery. 
Is  it  or  is  it  not  a  means  of  recovery,  this  hydrotherapic  treatment? 
A.  I  think  it  is.  Properly  used  hydrotherapy  is  helpful,  but  it 
requires  skill,  people  who  are  professionals.  For  instance,  I  do  not 
think  I  should  be  competent  to  administer  hydrotherapy,  although  I 
understand  it  all  theoretically,  but  to  have  competent  men  and  com¬ 
petent  women  to  administer  that  treatment  here  would  be  a  great 
blessing  to  the  institution,  and  I  think,  perhaps  off-hand  may  be, 
$3,000  to  $4,000  to  equip  and  maintain  them  in  those  several  depart¬ 
ments,  I  think  it  would  be  money  well  invested. 

Q.  That  is  what  I  am  after?  A.  That  is  my  opinion. 

The  Chairman — Did  you  say  $3,000  or  $4,000  to  instal?  A.  To 
get  these  eight  people. 


Q.  Three  thousand  a  year  afterwards?  A.  Yes,  sir.  That  is 
just  off-hand. 

Mr.  Harrison — I  wanted  to  ask  you  about  tuberculosis.  Unless 
I  am  mistaken  this  institution  is  the  first  place  where  the  separa¬ 
tion  of  the  tubercular  from  the  non-tubercular  patients  was  in¬ 
augurated  in  the  United  States,  is  that  correct?  A.  Yes,  the 
studies  that  were  made  here  by  physicians  begun  here  in  the 
early  forties  led  to  the  preparation  of  a  report  read  in  1894 
to  the  asylum  superintendents  about  tuberculosis,  and  on  the 
basis  of  that  report  which  met  with  a  good  deal  of  opposition  at 
first,  on  the  basis  of  that  report  the  modern  plan — at  least  that  re¬ 
port  gets  the  credit  of  being  the  starting  point  in  asylums  for  the 
insane  in  the  fight  against  tuberculosis  in  America,  and  it  ante-dated 
the  English  crusade  four  or  five  years.  We  have  tried  to  separate 
them,  but  that  problem  is  very  much  like  the  land  problem  and  the 
building  problem.  You  see  the  asylum  did  not  have  but  forty  acres 
of  land.  They  had  only  forty  acres  of  land  in  1876  when  General 
Hampton’s  government  came  in,  and  the  Board  of  Regents  have 
simply  for  years  been  trying  to  lay  the  foundation  for  a  hospital. 
They  picked  up  in  1878  a  little  piece  of  land,  and  in  1883  a  little 
piece,  in  1896  a  little,  in  1902  a  little,  and  in  1903  and  1905,  so  that 
we  have  had  to  expend  our  energies  in  trying  to  lay  the  foundation. 
In  trying  to  build  so  as  to  receive  all  these  classes  which  we  are 

called  upon  to  receive  here,  we  have  not  been  able  as  Dr.  - 

said  back  in  the  fifties,  we  have  not  been  able  to  keep  up  with  the 
progress  of  the  times.  The  energies  of  my  officers  have  been  ex¬ 
pended  in  trying  to  lav  the  foundation  upon  which  future  genera¬ 
tions  might  build.  Our  work  has  been  like  a  man  that  plants  a 
tree.  He  plants  the  tree  that  future  generations  may  enjoy  the 
shade  of  it,  and  we  have  been  trying  to  do  the  best  we  can  to  lay 
the  foundation,  and  with  the  means  that  have  been  permitted  the 
foundations  have  been  laid. 

Q.  In  case  this  idea  that  was  brought  up  the  other  day  was  car¬ 
ried  out  to  some  extent — those  questions  that  were  asked  Mr. 
Bunch  relative  to  getting  a  site  say  of  fifteen  hundred  acres  of  land, 
would  not  it  be  possible  very  cheaply,  very  economically,  to  build 
tuberculosis  tents,  wooden  or  other  tents?  A.  The  Board  of  Re¬ 
gents  have  grappled  with  the  problem,  and  appointed  the  medical 
members  to  look  into  it.  Dr.  Ray  was  on  the  committee  to  see 
whether  a  modern  cottage  could  be  made  to  colonize  the  tuberculosis 
patients.  The  first  problem  was  that  of  lighting  that  building.  To 


412 


warm  it  and  light  it  would  cost  a  thousand  dollars.  Of  course,  that 
fund  was  not  available  for  the  purposes  of  that  building.  The  Board 
of  Regents  ordered  me  yesterday  to  start  colonies  wherever  I  could 
establish  them.  To  come  back  to  your  fifteen  hundred  acre  prop¬ 
osition,  and  the  tuberculosis  colonies.  The  Board  of  Regents  and 
myself  have  been  hammering  away  at  that  proposition  for  years.  The 
Regents  have  looked  into  it.  It  is  not  a  question  so  much  as  to  the 
policy  of  getting  this  tract  of  fifteen  hundred  acres  or  more.  It  is 
a  question  of  agreement  as  to  where  that  tract  should  be. 

Q.  That  was  not  within  the  scope  of  my  question.  The  question 
I  am  asking  is  with  reference  to  future  development,  and  not  what 
the  action  of  the  board  has  been  or  anything  of  that  sort.  I  want 
your  ideas  as  to  whether  it  can  be  done,  what  are  they?  A.  My 
idea  is  that  the  future  policy  of  the  State,  and  by  that  I  mean  the 
very  early  future,  I  would  say  the  present  policy  of  the  State,  should 
look  towards  securing  a  tract  of  land  not  remote  from  Columbia 
upon  which  these  various  classes,  if  you  like,  start  it  with  the 
colored  insane,  but  I  think  you  could  secure  that  land,  and  then  spend 
many  thousand  dollars,  I  am  not  prepared  to  say  how  many,  but 
not  less  than  a  hundred  thousand  dollars,  in  making  a  psycopathic 
hospital.  Develop  this  plant  here  in  Columbia  as  a  hospital  in  which 
you  receive  acute  mental  cases.  Then  have  in  the  country  an 
asylum.  Here  is  your  hospital  and  there  is  your  asylum  so  many 
miles  out.  Let  that  asylum  be  far  enough  out  for  you  to  develop  all 
your  colonies,  tuberculosis  colonies  or  epileptic  colonies,  if  you  like. 
Have  a  portion  set  apart  for  colored  insane,  and  above  all  things 
your  chronic  colored  insane,  because  the  race  as  all  physicians  will 
tell  you,  as  a  race  is  very  prone  to  tuberculosis,  and  they  must  be 
out  where  they  can  get  sunshine  and  live  out  of  doors.  I  don’t  be¬ 
lieve  there  is  a  better  climate  in  the  world  for  the  treatment  of 
tuberculosis  than  this  South  Carolina  climate,  and  this  around 
Columbia.  I  think  in  many  ways  it  is  ideal.  Take  general  paralysis, 
and  I  think  these  climatic  conditions  are  exceptional  for  diseases  of 
that  nature,  better  than  I  have  known  it  to  be  elsewhere. 

Q.  I  want  to  ask  you  about  a  specific  instance  or  two.  The  first 
thing  I  want  to  ask  you  is  as  to  this  boiler  plant?  Is  not  that  an 
economic  loss  to  the  institution  and  to  the  State?  A.  That  matter 
of  the  boilers  has  been  up  before  the  Regents  ever  since  I  have 
been  here,  and  I  think,  and  the  Board  of  Regents — their  mechanical 
committee  will  tell  you  that  they  have  wanted  for  some  time  to 
spend  twenty-five  thousand  dollars  in  puting  in  a  new  battery  of 


413 


boilers  there.  It  would  be  immensely  to  the  advantage  of  the  in¬ 
stitution,  it  would  really  be  an  economic  measure.  Don’t  you  think 
so?  I  think  so. 

Q.  This  ice  plant. 

Mr.  Dick — You  mean  a  central  heating  plant?  A.  Yes,  sir;  this 
is  simply  for  steam  and  for  mechanical  purposes.  That  is  what  you 
had  reference  to. 

Q.  Yes,  sir;  the  idea  is  to  show  that  by  retaining  the  present 
antiquated  system  that  we  are  causing  an  economic  loss  to  the  State  ? 
A.  You  see  one  of  those  boilers  out  there  is  in  such  shape  that  the 
boiler  insurance  company  refused  to  insure  it. 

Q.  It  is  really  dangerous  to  life  and  property?  A.  Yes,  sir;  there 
are  two  boilers,  I  think  that  were  in  operation  when  I  came  here, 
and  the  mechanic  at  that  time  condemned  them.  I  think  they  are 
still  using  another  boiler  I  picked  up  after  it  had  passed  through  a 
fire.  It  is  a  large  boiler,  perhaps  an  eighty  horsepower  boiler. 

Mr.  Harrison — Furthermore,  with  regard  to  the  change  of  this 
building  that  we  were  speaking  of  this  morning;  the  having  of  your 
offices  in  the  front  part  of  the  building  in  a  congested  condition  thus 
reducing  the  efficiency  of  your  employees,  that  is  also  one  of  the 
most  serious  economic  losses  that  this  institution  faces?  A.  I  don’t 
think  this  ought  to  go  out  in  the  press,  but  our  sessions  are  being 
held  in  a  room  over  the  morgue.  The  dead  room  is  beneath  us. 

Q.  From  a  monetary  point  of  view,  that  is,  a  man’s  time  being 
worth  so  much  money,  etc.,  would  not  it  pay  this  institution  and  pay 
the  State  of  South  Carolina,  which  owns  it,  to  make  those  repairs  ? 
A.  To  do  what  ? 

Q.  To  make  that  change  and  make  those  repairs  that  I  spoke  of? 
A.  Unquestionably. 

Mr.  Carey — Your  mention  of  the  morgue  suggested  the  question. 
There  has  been  some  criticism  about  the  hospital  burying  grounds. 
I  wish  you  would  explain  that  to  the  commission?  A.  That  grave 
yard  was  bought  as  a  part  of  the  cemetery  by  the  Board  of  Regents 
many  years  ago,  and  was  used  for  the  purpose  for  which  it  was 
bought.  There  was  some  little  competition  here  among  the  under¬ 
takers  as  to  the  contract  for  the  burial  of  the  asylum  patients,  and  at 
one  time  there  was  a  change  made  from  the  old  undertaker  who  had 
had  it  for  many  years.  The  new  man  was  not  as  careful,  and  he 
did  not  dig  his  graves  with  the  care  they  had  always  been  dug,  and 
on  one  or  two  occasions  it  was  reported  that  he  had  dug  into  pre¬ 
vious  graves.  The  Board  of  Regents,  when  they  learned  of  the 


4H 


crowded  condition  appealed  to  the  penitentiary  to  give  them  some 
land  they  had  back  of  the  cemetery.  They  gave  them  a  portion  of 
land,  and  after  a  trial  of  a  few  years  the  Regents  were  satisfied  that 
that  arrangement  was  not  what  they  could  stand  for ;  so  they  set 
aside  a  piece  of  land  over  in  the  woods  back  of  the  veterans  infirmary. 

Q.  Was  that  an  accident?  A.  The  matter  was  just  reported  to 
the  Board,  and  the  Board  had  it  looked  into  and  they  corrected  it. 

Q.  They  corrected  it?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  it  only  happen  on  one  or  two  occasions?  A.  That  was 
all  I  ever  heard  of.  The  Board  of  Regents  came  to  me  about  the 
matter,  and  we  looked  into  it  together,  and  the  Board  appointed  a 
sub-committee  and  we  handled  it  with  all  the  care  that  we  would 
if  it  had  been  our  own  flesh  and  blood  that  had  been  buried  in  those 
graves. 

Q.  How  long  has  that  been?  A.  About  three  years,  three  or 
four  years. 

Q.  There  has  been  some  little  intimation  on  the  part  of  some  of 
the  witnesses  that  you  are  somewhat  opposed  to  amusements.  What 
about  that?  A.  Mr.  Carey,  I  only  deplore  the  fact  that  we  haven’t 
got  a  great  many  more. 

Q.  I  just  wanted  to  give  you  an  opportunity  to  explain  your 
position.  A.  That  is  a  misapprehension  entirely. 

Q.  You  really  are  in  favor  of  them?  A.  I  am  not  only  in  favor 
of  them,  but  I  am  very  sorry  that  we  haven’t  got  a  great  many  more. 
In  the  good  old  days  when  there  were  two  hundred  and  fifty  patients 
in  the  institution  it  was  possible  to  have  the  patients  go  driving 
and  to  give  them  all  those  little  pleasures  of  life,  but  with  this  over¬ 
whelming  population,  how  are  we  going  to  have  patients  go  to  drive 
without  going  up  against  the  question  of  favoritism?  To  give  those 
patients  proper  buggies  and  carriages,  etc.,  to  go  driving,  it  would 
cost  enormously. 

Q.  Do  you  think  amusements  aid  recovery?  A.  I  would  say, 
if  I  were  asked  for  the  proper  treatment  for  the  insane,  out  of  doors 
life,  occupation,  amusements,  and  medicine.  I  put  medicine  down 
last.  Amusements  come  before  medicines. 

Q.  Fresh  air?  A.  Exercise,  occupation  and  amusements. 

Q.  Cleanliness?  A.  All  of  those  things. 

Q.  All  ahead  of  drugs  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  part  do  drugs  play  in  administering  to  mental  diseases? 
A.  If  they  are  legitimately  used  they  are  very  helpful.  The  curse 


415 


of  the  insane  is  insomnia,  and  you  have  first  to  grapple  with  that 
before  you  can  do  them  any  good,  and  they  promote  sleep. 

Q.  What  is  your  method  here  of  promoting  sleep?  A.  We  give 
these  preparations  like  sulphurnal,  trionads,  etc. 

Q.  You  don’t  use  chloral?  A.  We  don’t  use  a  great  many,  but 
what  we  do  use  we  try  to  use  intelligently,  just  as  intelligently  as 
we  can. 

Q.  How  about  physical  treatment?  A.  That  is  done  as  far  as 
possible,  not  as  thoroughly  as  we  would  like  or  as  we  would  do  it 
if  we  had  more  space.  For  instance,  take  these  negro  women.  They 
have  a  little  back  yard  garden  plot  to  occupy  their  time  in.  There  is 
no  opportunity  for  modern  treatment.  We  keep  them  out  of  doors. 
They  live  out  of  doors.  There  are  three  hundred  white  women  and 
for  them  we  ought  to  have  a  half  acre  of  ground. 

Q.  Have  you  got  many  cases  of  pellagra?  A.  Yes,  sir;  about 
twenty-five. 

Q.  How  do  you  manage  that  class  of  patients  ?  A.  Most  of  them 
are  among  the  negro  women,  and  it  falls  to  my  lot  to  handle  them. 
Pellagra  to  me  is  very  much  of  a  mystery,  sir.  I  have  given  an 
immense  amount  of  time  to  the  study  of  it  since  we  recognized  it, 
but  we  had  it  here  a  long,  long  time  before  we  recognized  it.  I  don’t 
think  we  are  entitled  to  very  much  credit  when  we  finally  recogniz¬ 
ed  it. 

Q.  Do  you  separate  them?  A.  We  have  a  place  built  there,  a  sun 
room  built  for  tuberculosis  patients,  and  they  are  kept  separate.  The 
Italians  who  have  studied  the  disease  for  a  hundred  and  thirty  years 
insist  that  it  is  not  communicable. 

0.  Is  it  infectious?  A.  They  say  it  is  not.  I  am  not  prepared  to 
answer  that  question.  As  I  say,  I  studied  quite  a  bit  on  that  sub¬ 
ject  in  the  last  year  and  a  half,  but  to  me  it  is  a  great  mystery,  and 
we  have  got  lots  to  learn  about  it,  and  there  is  a  great  deal  more  of 
it  in  this  country  than  we  realize  at  this  time. 

Q.  Are  any  white  patients  afflicted  with  it?  A.  One  white  wo¬ 
man,  an  old  white  woman. 

Q.  How  is  she  getting  along?  A.  Men  appear  to  do  better  than 
women,  but  to  me  pellagra  is  a  plague.  Those  poor  women,  in  spite 
of  all  that  we  can  do,  and  whatever  our  other  short-comings  may 
be,  I  assure  you  that  those  poor  pellagra  patients  have  had  the  best 
attention  that  could  possibly  be  given  them,  in  spite  of  all  that  we 
can  do,  they  simply  waste  awray  and  become  mummified.  I  can  not 
express  it  in  any  other  way. 


416 


Q.  It  does  not  yield  to  treatment?  A.  I  think  it  does  yield  to' 
treatment  in  its  early  stages,  if  recognized  early.  I  think  the  doctors 
around  in  Atlanta,  Charlotte  and  Columbia  recognize  pellagra  before 
it  attacks  the  nerves,  etc.,  and  when  you  recognize  it  early  it  is  cur¬ 
able. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  is  the  cause  of  it  ?  A.  I  don't  know ;  the 
Italians  say  damaged  corn.  They  insist  upon  that  almost  to  a  man. 
Men  of  great  acumen  who  have  devoted  life-long  study  to  it  like 
Lombroso,  one  of  the  great  intellects  of  the  world,  he  says  it  is  corn 
and  he  does  not  tolerate  any  other  suggestion. 

Mr.  Hardin — Is  it  as  fatal  as  leprosy?  A.  That  is  one  of  the 
names  that  it  has  gone  by.  You  can  take  the  case  of  Dr.  Lavinder 
— the  United  States  had  a  public  hospital  surgeon  to  arrive  here  to 
study  this  disease  in  and  around  here,  and  he  has  gone  all  over 
South  Carolina  studying  it. 

Q.  If  I  understand,  you  are  not  taking  the  risk  of  its  being  com¬ 
municated?  A.  We  are  not  taking  the  risk.  If  it  is  communicat¬ 
ed,  it  is  slightly  communicable,  if  it  is  at  all,  but  the  authorities,  the 
men  that  write,  but  have  not  proven,  say  that  it  is  not  communi¬ 
cable,  but  there  are  certain  mysteries  about  it  that  have  not  yet  been 
solved. 

Q.  You  are  not  taking  any  risk  here?  A.  We  are  not  taking 
chances. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  much  these  Georgia  and  North  Carolina 
hospitals  pay  per  capita?  A.  I  read  somewhere  that  the  per  capita 
at  Raleigh  was  $165.00,  at  Morganton  about  ten  dollars  less. 

Q.  About  $150.00?  A.  $155.00.  That  is  approximate. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  positively?  A.  I  think  that  is  approximately 
correct. 

Dr.  Taylor — I  have  approached  you  several  times  as  a  member  of 
the  Board  of  Regents  to  know  if  it  would  meet  with  your  approval 
if  the  Board  of  Regents  would  ask  the  Legislature  to  raise  your 
salary  of  three  thousand  dollars  to  what  it  should  be,  four  or  five 
thousand  dollars  for  a  man  at  the  head  of  this  institution,  and  you 
have  constantly  refused  to  allow  it  to  be  done.  Is  that  true  or  not 
true?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  I  am  paid  all  I  am  worth. 

Q.  Haven’t  I  also  mentioned  the  fact  that  I  believed  personally 
that  the  institution  should  supply  you  with  food  from  the  farm, 
supplies,  fruit  and  vegetables,  and  you  refused,  saying  that  you  did 
not  think  it  looked  well?  A.  I  think  that  is  proper.  I  do  not  like 
to  go  into  personal  matters,  but  since  you  bring  it  up,  I  think  it 


4i7 


ought  to  be  fully  emphasized  that  no  resident  officer  of  this  institu¬ 
tion  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge  and  belief,  and  under  oath,  has  a 
resident  officer  of  this  institution  in  my  time,  or  at  any  other  time 
under  any  other  administration,  has  ever  gotten  any  perquisites  out 
of  the  institution. 

Q.  Any  supplies?  A.  No  supplies. 

Q.  You  have  known  or  have  met  the  heads  of  superintendents  of 
most  of  the  Southern  institutions?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  wrote  letters  asking  the  salaries  of  their  superintendents,  and 
whether  they  got  anything  from  their  institutions  in  the  way  of  their 
support,  and  as  I  recall  it,  without  exception,  every  man  was  given 
supplies,  etc.,  from  the  dairy  and  the  farm  of  the  institution,  and  in 
addition  to  that  considerably  more  salary  with  less  in  the  institution, 
isn’t  that  so  ?  A.  I  don’t  think  anybody  gets  any  better  salary  in  the 
South.  I  don’t  know  of  anyone.  I  am  not  posted  because  I  have 
not  paid  the  slightest  attention  to  it. 

Mr.  Sawyer — Have  you  ever  been  offered  any  other  positions 
since  you  have  been  here?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  been  offered  two 
positions  since  I  have  been  here. 

Q.  Did  those  positions  carry  any  more  salary?  A.  One  of  them 
did. 

Mr.  Carey — Similar  work?  A.  General  hospital  work  at  Cleve¬ 
land,  Ohio. 

Dr.  Taylor — Just  illustrate  the  problem  that  you  and  the  board 
have  to  deal  with  here,  one  of  the  problems,  and  one  of  the  most 
important,  the  criminals.  Could  you  give  an  example  to  show  the 
problems  that  we  deal  with  here  in  criminal  cases?  A.  Yes,  sir; 
the  Board  has  been  aware  for  a  long  time  that  the  asylum  was  being 
used  as  a  cloak  for  crime,  and  they  have  warned  me  against  allowing 
that  thing  to  happen,  and  I  have  done  the  best  I  could.  Do  you 
want  a  case  in  point? 

Q.  I  want  a  case  in  detail,  if  you  will  give  it  for  the  benefit  of 
the  commission'?  A.  Here  is  a  case  in  point.  I  hope  that  the  gen¬ 
tlemen  will  be  careful  and  suppress  the  names.  Here  is  the  case  of 
James  T.  Burrows  who  was  committed  here  on  the  ioth  of  May, 
1908.  It  states  that  he  was  in  jail  on  many  charges — fraud,  etc.,  in 
financial  matters  the  physicians’  certificate  states? 

Mr.  Bates — When  was  he  committed?  A.  The  ioth  of  May,  1908. 
The  physicians  state  there  that  there  was  nothing  to  indicate  insan¬ 
ity;  that  the  patient  acted  normally,  and  appeared  to  be  laboring 
under  great  mental  excitement  and  great  distress.  Dr.  Boyd  has 


27— A. 


418 


been  connected  with  Mr. - in  a  business  way  during-  the  last 

year.  This  patient  was  received  here.  Application  was  made  to 
me  and  I  protested  against  his  being  received.  Application  was  then 
made  to  Judge  Cobb  and  he  protested  against  committing  him.  Mr. 
Gibbes,  who  made  the  application,  insisted  that  he  should  be  com¬ 
mitted. 

Q.  What  Gibbes?  A.  Hunter  A.  Gibbes.  Judge  Cobb  stated 
that  he  would  only  commit  him  if  he  would  allow  him  to  select  the 
physicians. 

Dr.  Taylor — May  I  ask  what  he  was  charged  with,  what  crime? 
A.  I  think  forgery,  obtaining  money  under  false  pretences.  I  know 
there  were  many  charges  of  fraud. 

Q.  He  collected  money,  and  claimed  to  be  connected  with  the  in¬ 
surance  company  when  he  was  not  connected  with  it,  isn’t  that  it? 
A.  I  did  not  know  that.  He  was  brought  here  in  spite  of  the  pro¬ 
test  on  the  part  of  myself  and  Judge  Cobb,  having  finally  a  certifi¬ 
cate  signed  by  physicians  selected  by  Mr.  Gibbes.  He  was  here  for 
some  weeks. 

Q.  Give  the  names  of  the  physicians?  A.  Dr.  Robert  Gibbes 
and  Dr.  Boyd. 

Q.  He  was  a  brother  of  Mr.  Hunter  A.  Gibbes?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman — I  would  say  to  the  members  of  the  press  present 
I  understand  the  names  of  the  patients  and  ex-patients  are  not  to  be 

mentioned.  Mr.  -  name,  under  the  view  of  the  committee 

is  the  only  name  that  will  be  left  out. 

The  Witness — Since  I  have  expressed  an  opinion,  I  would  like  to 
add  that  I  am  very  much  in  sympathy  with  the  protection  of  the 
privacy  of  these  men  who  have  been  unfortunate  enough  to  be  pa¬ 
tients  in  the  asylum,  and  I  make  a  special  plea  that  nothing  be  done 
that  discloses  their  identity. 

The  Chairman — I  think  we  interrupted  you  in  the  midst  of  this 
case?  A.  Mr.  Chairman,  as  far  as  I  am  individually  concerned  I 
would  very  much  rather  discuss  the  whole  matter  of  criminals  in 
a  general  way. 

Dr.  Ray — I  think  we  ought  to  be  able  to  prove  the  animus  of 

those  people  that  sent  that  memorial.  As  far  as  Mr.  -  is 

concerned  we  have  letters  from  Mr.  -  thanking  us  for  the 

kind  treatment. 

Witness — Let  me  read  this  letter.  When  Mr.  Gibbes  took  Mr. 

-  out,  he  addressed  this  letter.  He  came  in  on  the  ioth  of 

May  and  went  out  on  the  9th  of  June.  He  says :  (Letter  read).  Up 


/ 


419 

to  the  time  of  Mr.  -  release  from  the  asylum  there  was 

absolutely  no  feeling  than  that  of  friendliness  on  the  part  of  Mr. 
Gibbes  towards  the  asylum,  towards  this  institution. 

Mr.  Hardin — What  date  was  that  letter  written,  doctor?  A.  The 
9th  of  June.  Subsequently,  if  I  may  pre-judge  Mr.  Gibbes’s  case — 
may  I,  Mr.  Chairman  ?  Am  I  out  of  order  in  this  ? 

The  Chairman — Not  at  all.  I  understood  that  you  wanted  to  take 

that  up'?  A.  Mr.  Gibbes,  during  the  time  that  Mr.  -  was 

here,  visited  his  client  on  the  wards  and  it  appears  that  he  got  into 
comunication  with  other  patients.  I  was  absent  three  days  after  Mr. 
Burroughs’  admission.  I  went  on  a  vacation  and  this  all  occurred 
in  my  absence,  but  I  understood  Mr.  Gibbes  offered  several  patients 
to  get  them  out  for  $35.00  apiece.  When  I  got  back  I  learned  that 
Drs.  Taylor  and  Thompson  had  gone  to  the  Attorney  General  to  see 
if  that  sort  of  conduct  was  not  so  unprofessional  as  to  disbar  Mr. 
Gibbes,  and  the  Attorney  General  replied  that  he  saw  nothing  in  the 
charges  that  would  warrant  any  such  steps.  At  the  same  time  Mr. 
Christie  Benet,  who  was  acting  Solicitor  for  this  Circuit,  was  making 
an  effort  with  Mr.  James  Fowles  to  have  Mr.  Hunter  Gibbes  dis¬ 
barred,  and  Mr.  Gibbes’s  subsequent  antagonism  to  the  Board  of 
Regents  and  the  resident  officers  it  appears  grew  largely  out  of  his 
being  reprimanded  by  Dr.  Thompson  for  coming  here  and  interfer¬ 
ing  with  patients  and  taking  out  patients.  Most  of  it  happened 
during  my  absence.  I  am  only  giving  you  hearsay  evidence. 

The  Chairman — Generally,  you  say,  every  now  and  then  the  in¬ 
stitution  is  made  use  of  by  those  who  are  not  fit  to  occupy  places 
here  ?  A.  That  happens  very  frequently,  so  frequently  that  in  one 
of  your  earlier  sessions  that  I  asked  the  two  legal  members  of  your 
commission  to  please  look  carefully  into  the  laws  which  would 
prevent  a  man  accused  of  crime  from  coming  within  the  jurisdic¬ 
tion  of  the  probate  judge;  that  those  cases  have  gone  so  far  that 
they  should  be  handled  in  the  Circuit  Courts,  that  is,  homicide  cases 
and  these  other  crimes.  It  seems  to  me  that  that  is  a  matter  which 
in  all  common  sense,  when  a  man  has  placed  himself  outside  of  the 
pale  of  the  probate  court  by  committing  a  crime,  it  seems  to  me  that 
the  circuit  court  is  the  place. 

Q.  And  he  ought  to  be  kept  in  jail  until  his  position  is  established? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  think  the  legal  members  of  the  commission  will  understand 
from  the  simple  rendition  of  it  by  the  doctor  what  is  necessary,  and 
although  I  myself  am  not  one  of  the  legal  members,  I  am  profiting 


420 


very  much  by  the  discussion.  A.  It  would  relieve  this  institution 
very  much  if  these  alleged  criminal  lunatics  could  be  placed  in  a 
special  department  of  the  penitentiary,  which  is  not  crowded,  instead 
of  having  them  come  here.  Would  it  be  constitutional  for  that  to 
be  done? 

Mr.  Carey — You  don't  want  to  be  imposed  upon?  A.  He  comes 
here  and  stays  awhile,  and  escapes,  because  we  have  not  the  means 
of  holding. 

Mr.  Hardin — Will  you  please  state  how  Mr.  -  got  out? 

A.  He  was  taken  out  by  his  wife,  against  the  advice  of  Dr.  Thomp¬ 
son. 

Mr.  Sawyer — We  have  gone  on  a  good  deal  about  what  the  doc¬ 
tor  has  asked  the  Legislature  for.  Have  you  directly  asked  the 
Legislature — that  was  before  I  got  in  there — have  you  asked  them 
directly  for  more  land  upon  which  you  could  build  a  cottage  or  a 
colony  for  epileptics  and  tuberculosis  patients?  A.  Yes,  sir;  that 
has  been  done. 

Q.  By  the  Board  and  you?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  they  turned  it  down.  It  seems  they  are  trying  to  give 
you  everything. 

Mr.  Dick — I  spoke  of  maintenance  and  support. 

Mr.  Sawyer — I  was  under  the  impression  that  this  had  been 
asked  for  several  years  ago  and  had  not  been  granted.  I  want  to  ask 
if  you  had  not  taken  some  steps  in  that  direction?  A.  There  was 
one  good  opportunity  we  had  some  three  years  ago.  The  old  King’s 
Mountain  school  buildings  could  have  been  bought  for  $16,000.00, 
and  some  efforts  were  made  before  the  General  Assembly.  Some  of 
the  Board  of  Regents  made  an  effort  to  secure  that  property  for 
inebriates  and  the  beginning  of  an  epileptic  colony. 

Q.  They  failed  to  do  that?  A.  Yes,  sir;  they  rejected  that,  and 
subsequently  we  made  an  effort  to  get  what  is  called  the  Industrial 
School  out  here. 

The  Chairman — That  was  the  tract  you  drove  me  out  to?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  At  the  time  you  came  before  the  Finance  Committee  of  the 
Senate  and  recommended  the  building  of  a  cottage  for  inebriates? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  At  that  time  did  the  Board  of  Regents  back  you  up  in  that? 
A.  There  was  some  disagreement. 

Q.  As  to  the  general  policy  of  buying  land  away  from  the  in- 


4^1 


stitution?  A.  No,  I  think  the  policy  of  buying  this  particular  piece 
of  land. 

Q.  It  was  a  question  of  whether  that  was  the  right  site,  was  it? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Dr,  Ray — Was  there  any  dissenting  report  filed?  A.  I  do  not 
know. 

Q.  Was  there  any  notice  then  that  there  would  be  a  minority 
report?  A.  I  don’t  know. 

Q.  Was  not  the  Board  of  Regents  a  vote  of  four  to  one  on  that? 
A.  I  suppose  our  records  will  show. 

Q.  Four  in  favor?  A.  I  think  that  is  the  record. 

Q.  But  no  minority  report  filed  that  you  remember?  A.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Dick — Did  Dr.  Taylor  ever  ask  you  to  take  another  physician? 
A.  Did  he  ever  ask  me  to  take  another  physician? 

Q.  Add  one  to  your  staff?  A.  I  think  he  has  discussed  that. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  it  would  take  to  put  this  establishment  in 
pretty  good  working  order,  $5,000.00?  A.  I  could  spend  $25,000.00, 
and  just  make  a  decent  showing. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  it  would  take  to  put  this  in  a  proper  con¬ 
dition  to  repairs?  A.  To  put  this  in  proper  shape  would  take  $150,- 
000.00  at  least. 

Q.  Was  not  a  resolution  passed  by  the  Board  of  Regents  to  pre¬ 
vent  Mr.  Gibbes  from  coming  here?  A.  This  is  hearsay,  and  I  have 
understood  that  there  was  such  a  vote  passed. 

(The  Commission  thereupon  went  into  executive  session). 

Columbia,  S.  C.,  20  May,  1909. 

After  an  executive  session,  the  Commission  decided  to  proceed 
regularly  with  the  testimony  shortly  after  ten  o’clock  a.  m.  this  day. 

Present :  The  members  of  the  Commission. 

The  Chairman  presiding. 

Dr.  H.  H.  Griffin,  being  duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows: 

Mr.  Carey — You  are  in  charge  of  the  colored  male  department, 
I  believe?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

0.  You  are  a  son  of  the  Dr.  Griffin  who  was  a  former  super¬ 
intendent  here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  age?  A.  Thirty-three. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  charge?  A.  Since  January,  1905, 
four  years. 


422 


Q.  How  many  colored  men  have  you  under  you?  A.  We  have 
330  today.  That  is  constantly  changing,  however. 

Q.  Where  did  you  receive  your  training  for  this  work?  A. 
Where  did  I  graduate? 

Q.  Yes?  A.  I  graduated  from  the  Medical  College  of  South 
Carolina  in  Charleston. 

Q.  When  did  you  graduate?  A.  In  1902. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  take  any  other  course  in  addition  to  that?  A. 
After  my  graduation  I  received  an  appointment  as  interne  at  the 
City  Hospital  in  Charleston.  I  was  there  a  year  and  a  half,  and  I 
went  to  New  York,  and  I  was  connected  with  Bellevue  Hospital  as 
an  interne  there. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  study  pharmacy?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I  graduated  in 
pharmacy  before  I  ever  studied  medicine. 

O.  Where?  A.  At  Vanderbilt  University. 

Q.  You  were  elected  by  the  Board  of  Regents  here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  salary  do  you  get?  A.  One  hundred  dollars  a  month. 

Q.  Do  you  have  any  medical  assistant  under  you?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  nurses?  A.  I  have  a  supervisor  and  nurses. 

Q.  Colored?  A.  The  supervisor  is  a  white  man. 

Q.  Who  is  your  supervisor?  A.  Mr.  Austin. 

Q.  Your  nurses  are  colored?  A.  Yes,  sir;  the  nurses  are  all 
colored. 

Q.  How  many  nurses  have  you?  A.  We  have  nine  nurses  on  the 
wards,  and  then  we  have  two-  men  for  the  yard. 

Q.  Eleven  in  all?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  that  sufficient  to  handle  a  crowd  of  men  like  that,  doctor? 
A.  I  don’t  think  so. 

Q.  How  many  do  you  need?  A.  I  think  we  ought  to  have  two 
or  three  times  that  number. 

Q.  How  much  do  the  nurses  get?  A.  The  nurses  are  paid  $17.50, 
except  the  hospital  nurses,  who  get  $21.50,  I  think  it  is. 

Q.  Who  employs  them?  A.  Dr.  Babcock. 

Q.  Are  those  you  have  got  capable?  A.  Some  of  them  are. 

Q.  Do  you  have  much  difficulty  in  getting  them?  A.  A  great 
deal. 

Q.  What  is  the  trouble?  A.  Because  they  are  not  paid  enough. 
They  are  paid  only  $17.50.  and  they  can  go  on  the  streets  of  the 
city  and  shovel  dirt  for  a  dollar  a  day. 

Q.  Do  you  have  much  trouble  in  keeping  them  after  you  get 
them?  A.  No,  I  think  not. 


423 


Q.  They  stick  pretty  well?  A.  Stick  pretty  well.  We  have  to 
discharge  a  good  many  of  them,  though. 

Q.  For  what  cause  generally?  A.  Sometimes  for  inefficiency, 
general  inefficiency.  Sometimes  we  have  had  a  few  cases  of  mal¬ 
treatment  of  patients,  too. 

Q.  Have  you  had  many  cases  of  that?  A.  Not  many. 

Q.  When  those  cases  did  occur,  did  you  look  into  them,  doctor? 
A.  Always,  at  once,  and  the  matter  was  reported  to  Dr.  Babcock. 

Q.  Who  looked  into  them?  A.  I  generally  investigated  the  mat¬ 
ter  and  reported  it  to  Dr.  Babcock  and  he  invariably  discharged 
them. 

Q.  Did  you  make  a  recommendation  when  you  reported?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  I  gave  him  all  the  particulars. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  make  a  recommendation  that  he  did  not  grant? 
A.  No,  sir;  he  always  acted  promptly. 

Q.  Is  he  in  harmony  here  with  the  other  members  of  the  in¬ 
stitution?  A.  Perfectly,  yes,  sir.  I  have  never  approached  him 
on  a  matter  that  he  did  not  give  perfect  satisfaction. 

Q.  No  friction  between  you  and  him?  A.  No,  sir,  absolutely 
none. 

Q.  What  is  the  condition  of  your  wards  over  there  as  to  clean¬ 
liness?  A.  I  think  it  is  fairly  good  considering  the  fact  that  we 
have  on  some  wards  two  nurses  to  1 1 1  patients. 

Q.  Two  nurses?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  many  filthy  patients  in  there?  A.  A  great  many. 

Q.  How  about  the  vermin  in  that  building?  A.  We  have  them 
but  we  are  waging  war  on  them  all  the  time.  They  are  being  con¬ 
stantly  brought  in  there  as  new  patients  come  in.  I  never  saw  one 
come  in  here  from  the  Charleston  Hospital  without  them. 

Q.  They  bring  lice?  A.  By  the  million. 

Q.  Bedbugs  ?  A.  O,  yes,  sir.  Our  practice  when  a  patient  comes 
in  from  Charleston  is  to  strip  off  his  clothes  and  burn  them.  That 
seems  to  be  the  only  remedy. 

Q.  When  they  come  from  other  places  they  don’t  have  them  so 
much  ?  A.  I  think  they  have  more  of  them  there  than  anywhere  else, 
but  the  majority  of  these  patients  come  from  jails  there,  and  I  don’t 
think  they  are  very  careful  about  them  there. 

Q.  What  efforts  do  you  make  systematically  to  get  rid  of  them? 
A.  Whenever  we  see  any  evidence  of  them,  we  get  to  work  and 
use  a  mixture  of  carbolic  acid  and  turpentine.  That  is  usually 
effectual. 


424 


Q.  It  is  pretty  difficult  to  get  rid  of  them?  A.  It  is  because  of 
the  fact  that  the  walls  are  rough.  If  we  had  smooth  plastered  walls 
I  think  our  efforts  would  be  more  effective. 

Q.  The  walls  are  not  plastered?  A.  No,  sir;  brick  walls.  They 
were  originally  painted,  but  it  has  now  worn  off. 

Q.  How  long  since  it  has  been  painted?  A.  I  don’t  think  they 
have  been  painted  since  the  construction  of  the  building  in  1897. 

Q.  They  could  be  plastered  now,  could  they  not?  A.  I  think  so, 
sir.  There  are  so  many  cracks  and  crevices  that  harbor  them  that 
it  is  sometimes  impossible  to  get  them  all.  Now,  we  always  in  the 
event  that  a  patient  dies  or  is  very  sick,  and  is  removed  from  one 
ward  to  another,  we  have  that  room  fumigated  with  sulphur  and 
washed  down  with  sulphur  or  some  similar  solution.  In  that  way 
we  reach  a  great  many  that  we  would  not  otherwise  reach  here. 

Q.  Have  you  iron  or  wooden  bedsteads  ?  A.  A  few  iron ;  most 
of  them  wooden. 

Q.  Bugs  are  harder  to  manage  in  wooden  bedsteads  than  in  iron? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  judgment  as  to  which  is  the  best  bed?  A.  I 
think  the  iron  bedstead  is  the  best,  decidedly  so,  and  I  asked  Dr. 
Babcock  in  fixing  up  this  room  in  the  basement  if  he  could  get  iron 
bedsteads.  He  said  that  he  would  do  so. 

Q.  He  bought  them  ?  A.  I  think  he  said  he  would. 

Q.  If  you  had  it  to  furnish  today,  would  you  furnish  it  with 
wooden  bedsteads  or  iron  bedsteads?  Which  do  you  think  would 
be  most  advantageous?  A.  I  think  it  would  probably  be  better,  if 
you  could  get  rid  of  those  vermin  it  would  be  better,  and  you  can 
get  at  them  better  when  you  have  iron  bedsteads. 

Q.  Have  you  sufficient  beds  for  the  patients?  A.  I  think  so,  ex¬ 
cept  as  I  was  just  saying,  we  have  just  recently  opened  up  a  room  in 
the  basement  that  has  not  been  occupied  yet. 

Q.  So  far  as  the  patients  are  concerned,  then,  you  are  not  in  an 
over-crowded  condition?  A.  Very  much,  sir. 

Q.  You  are?  A.  Yes,  sir;  we  have  not  a  room  for  forty-five  or 
fifty,  and  we  have  had  as  many  as  fifty-five  in  those  three  rooms,  and 
the  beds  are  literally  touching  each  other.  I  do  not  think  that  is  a 
good  state  of  affairs. 

Q.  What  is  the  accommodation  ?  How  many  ought  to  be  housed 
in  there?  A.  I  think  we  can  comfortably  put  in  that  building  pos¬ 
sibly  about  200. 

Q.  Two  hundred  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


425 


Q.  You  have  only  one  building,  I  believe.  A.  Just  one  building. 

Q.  Are  your  help  in  there  patients ;  do  you  have  any  of  the  patients 
to  help?  A.  A  good  many  of  them  help  about  the  wards. 

Q.  Do  they  help  the  nurses?  A.  Yes,  sir;  but,  of  course,  we 
cannot  rely  on  that. 

Q.  Are  they  forced  or  do  they  do  it  of  their  own  accord,  doctor? 
A.  The  nurses  frequently  request  them  to  help  about  the  ward.  If 
they  show  any  unwillingness  they  are  never  pressed  at  all. 

Q.  Do  they  prefer  that?  A.  I  think  they  do;  at  least,  a  great 
many  of  them  do,  sir. 

Q.  Does  it  help  them?  A.  Yes,  sir,  it  diverts  their  minds. 

Q.  Where  is  the  cooking  done?  A.  In  the  main  kitchen. 

Q.  That  is  in  another  building?  A.  Y'es,  sir;  that  is  in  another 
building. 

Q.  How  is  the  food  carried  over?  A.  It  is  carried  over  in  pans 
generally,  on  a  little  cart.  The  patients  carry  it  over  under  the 
direction  of  the  employees. 

Q.  Do  you  have  a  common  dining  room  on  the  ward  ?  A.  A  com¬ 
mon  dining  room,  except  on  the  second,  the  hospital  ward.  The  food 
is  brought  up  there. 

Q.  Who  serves  the  food,  the  patients  or  the  hired  help  ?  A.  There 
is  one  hired  man  in  the  dining  room,  and  the  rest  of  the  help  are 
patients. 

Q.  Do  you  require  them  to  keep  themselves  clean?  A.  Yes,  sir; 
I  choose  all  those  patients  for  the  kitchen,  the  dining  room,  and 
the  dairy. 

Q.  Yourself?  A.  I  do  that  myself.  I  put  up  notice  sometime  ago 
that  no  patient  must  be  taken  out  to  any  of  those  places  without 
consulting  me. 

Q.  What  have  you  got  to  say  about  the  food  served  to  your  de¬ 
partment?  A.  I  think  the  food,  considering  the  large  number 
they  have  to  cook  for  and  the  large  scale  it  is  done  upon,  I  think  it 
is  fairly  good.  I  think  that  in  some  instances  it  has  not  been.  I 
recollect  one  case  last  summer,  an  occasion  when  the  food  gave  a 
patient  bowel  trouble,  and  they  attributed  it  to  improperly  cooked 
turnips. 

Q.  The  supplies  that  are  furnished  to  the  kitchen,  are  they  in  a 
fresh  condition?  A.  Furnished  to  the  kitchen? 

Q.  From  the  farm  here?  A.  Yes,  sir;  O,  yes. 

Q.  The  fact  that  the  food  is  not  palatable  is  due  to  its  preparation? 


426 


A.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  passed  through  the  kitchen  and  seen  the  vege¬ 
tables  before  preparation. 

Q.  Have  you  had  much  complaint  among  your  patients  or  their 
friends  as  to  what  you  give  them  to  eat?  A.  Only  one  instance, 
in  which  the  man  was  from  Columbia,  a  very  well-to-do  negro.  He 
has  a  family  that  sends  his  meals  to  him.  I  don’t  know  whether  it 
is  because  of  the  character  of  the  food.  The  man  I  know  had  an 
idea  that  they  were  trying  to  poison  him,  and  a  great  many  of  these 
patients  have  that  idea,  and  he  wanted  his  food  brought  from  the 
outside,  and  his  daughter  comes  and  brings  his  meals. 

Q.  Do  you  allow  friends  to  send  them  food?  A.  Yes,  sir;  that  is 
always  inspected,  though.  If  a  man  is  sick,  and  we  think  he  ought 
not  to  have  it,  it  is  withheld  from  him. 

Q.  Who  does  that?  A.  The  supervisor  usually  does  that. 

Q.  Mr.  Austin  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

O.  Is  he  a  pretty  capable  man?  A.  Very. 

Q.  Where  did  you  get  him?  A.  He  has  been  connected  with  the 
institution  for  a  long  time. 

Q.  With  this  institution?  A.  Yes,  sir.  He  was  a  nurse  on  the 
white  male  wards  for  a  number  of  years.  I  think  he  has  been  here 
eight  or  ten  years,  or  more. 

Q.  Was  he  under  your  father?  A.  I  don't  think  he  was. 

Q.  Came  after?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  method  of  training  them  over  there ;  any  system 
of  instruction?  A.  No,  sir.  I  instruct  them  generally  as  to  their 
duties.  I  tell  them  what  they  must  and  must  not  do. 

Q.  That  is,  your  nurses?  A.  Yes,  sir.  You  see,  as  a  rule  they 
are  very  ignorant.  We  have  some  over  there  that  cannot  write ;  but 
we  have  some  I  think  that  are  more  intelligent  than  the  usual  negro 
around  is. 

Q.  What  system  of  bathing  the  patients  have  you?  A.  The 
bathing  is  done  on  different  days,  and  that  is  according  to  the  ward. 
We  have  four  wards,  and  we  have  four  bathing  days;  Wednesday, 
Thursday,  Friday  and  Saturday  of  each  week. 

Mr.  Sawyer — On  that  question  of  training  the  nurses.  In  answer 
to  Mr.  Carey’s  question,  you  said  you  did  not  have  any  method  of 
training.  You,  perhaps,  mean  not  by  classes ;  but  you  do  give  them 
individual  training?  A.  I  mean  we  give  them  no  lectures. 

Mr.  Carey — You,  in  a  conversational  way,  instruct  them  as  to 
their  duty?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


427 


0.  Daily?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I  do  that  every  day  when  I  go  through 
there.  I  instruct  all  of  the  nurses,  and  inspect  all  the  wards. 

Q.  How  often  do  you  make  that  inspection?  A.  Every  day. 

Q.  In  the  morning?  A.  Morning. 

Q.  Do  you  make  a  thorough  inspection?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  inspect  the  rooms  and  everything?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  goes  with  you  on  the  inspection  tours  you  make  every 
day?  A.  The  supervisor. 

Q.  Mr.  Austin?  A.  Yes,  sir;  and  generally  one  of  the  nurses  on 
the  hospital  ward. 

Q.  What  salary  does  Mr.  Austin  get?  A.  I  think  he  gets  forty 
or  forty-five  dollars  a  month,  sir. 

Q.  A  month?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  His  duties  in  your  ward  are  similar  to  those  of  Mr.  Mitchell 
under  Dr.  Thompson;  that  is,  practically?  A.  The  same,  yes,  sir. 
Mr.  Mitchell  does  the  putting  up  of  the  drugs  in  addition. 

Q.  In  your  department— how  is  that  drug  department  arranged? 
Who  has  charge  of  it?  A.  I  have  a  book  for  the  purpose  of  writing 
my  prescriptions.  I  see  all  the  sick  and  make  my  prescriptions  in 
this  book. 

Q.  Who  gives  the  medicine?  A.  The  medicine  is  given  out  by  the 
nurses  on  the  hospital  ward.  He  looks  after  the  giving  of  the  medi¬ 
cine  in  there,  sir. 

Q.  Are  they  men  who  can  read?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  always  choose 
a  man  who  can  read  and  write,  and  who  has  more  intelligence  than 
the  rest  of  them. 

Q.  Do  you  make  any  effort  over  there  to  separate  the  patients  into 
classes,  as  far  as  you  can?  A.  We  attempt  to  separate  the  violent 
from  the  quieter  patients. 

Q.  That  is  what  I  mean.  A.  On  one  ward  we  have  quite  a  num¬ 
ber  of  violent  patients,  on  the  hospital  ward,  and  when  a  patient 
becomes  very  much  excited  and  destructive  I  move  them  down  to 
that  ward. 

Q.  Do  you  use  much  restraint?  A.  It  is  frequently  necessary. 

Q.  What  form  of  restraint  do  you  use?  A.  We  usually  confine 
their  hands  by  means  of  straps.  We  use,  in  some  instances,  muffs, 
and  in  many  instances  the  camesole.  I  prefer  the  camesole. 

Q.  You  use  those  on  the  violent  class?  A.  Yes,  sir;  but  there 
are  a  great  many  of  them  that  can  tear  the  camesole  off  with  their 
teeth. 

Q.  Comparatively  speaking,  are  the  negroes  easier  to  manage  than 


428 


the  white  insane,  in  your  judgment?  A.  I  would  not  say  that  they 
were  easier  to  manage  as  a  class.  It  has  been  my  experience  with 
the  negro  insane  is  that  the  phase  of  insanity  they  assume  is  either 
of  excitement  or  mania.  We  have  very  few  cases  of  melancholia 
among  the  negroes  here. 

Q.  With  the  whites  that  is  very  common?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  is  more  likely  to  develop  a  more  violent  form  than  the 
other?  A.  Yes,  sir.  A  large  per  cent,  of  our  admissions  here  are 
very  violent  patients.  When  they  are  brought  in  they  are  so  violent 
that  we  cannot  make  satisfactory  examinations  at  the  time  they 
come  in. 

0.  What  is  your  treatment  of  those  violent  fellows?  What  do 
you  do  for  them?  A.  Well,  when  a  patient  of  that  character  is  first 
admitted  we  put  restraints  on  them.  We  restrain  the  hands  and  feet 
and  put  them  in  a  room  to  themselves,  generally  in  a  strong  room. 
We  have  some  rooms  especially  prepared  for  the  reception  of  violent 
patients. 

Q.  Does  that  tend  to  allay  the  excitement?  A.  Yes,  sir,  the 
restraints  do,  and  they  become  quiet  after  a  few  days  in  many 
instances. 

Q.  When  you  first  receive  them,  do  you  make  an  examination  into 
the  case?  A.  Unless  they  are  too  violent. 

Q.  If  they  are,  what  do  you  do  with  them?  A.  I  see  them,  and 
even  go  into  their  rooms,  but  I  cannot  make  a  special  physical  exam¬ 
ination  while  they  are  in  this  excited  condition. 

Q.  After  they  get  out  of  it  do  you  make  a  complete  examination? 
A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  usually  do  so. 

Q.  What  percentage  of  recoveries  do  you  have  in  your  depart¬ 
ment?  A.  I  suppose  possibly  fifteen  to  twenty  per  cent.,  maybe. 

Q.  Do  you  adopt  the  furlough  system  in  letting  them  out?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

0.  You  use  the  same  form?  A.  Yes,  sir,  as  was  testified  here  yes¬ 
terday. 

Q.  Dr.  Babcock  has  charge  of  that  part  of  it?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I 
refer  it  to  him.  I  make  the  recommendation,  and  he  generally  acts 
upon  it. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  advisable  to  leave  it  to  the  doctor?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  I  think  so ;  I  think  the  Superintendent  should  know  who  goes 
out,  and  the  condition  they  are  in  when  they  go  out. 

Q.  When  you  find  that  the  patient  is  entitled  to  an  absolute  dis¬ 
charge,  do  you  attach  any  condition  to  it?  A.  No,  sir. 


429 


Q.  They  go  free?  A.  Yes,  sir;  only  those  I  am  uncertain  about 
are  given  the  furloughs. 

Q.  If  they  do  not  return  within  the  time  they  are  furloughed 
who  pays  the  expenses  ?  Are  they  then  treated  as  a  new  case  ?  A.  It 
is  treated  as  a  new  case,  and  they  are  regularly  admitted. 

Q.  If  within  the  time,  who  pays  the  expenses?  A.  The  family 
pays  the  expenses  for  him  to  go  and  come  back.  The  institution  is 
put  to  no  expense. 

Q.  But  if  they  return  after?  A.  After  ninety  days  they  are  regu¬ 
larly  admitted,  and  examined  by  two  physicians. 

Q.  Just  as  if  they  had  never  been  here?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  understood  you  to  say  that  you  selected  the  patients  that 
went  to  the  dairy?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  particular  are  you  about  them?  A.  I  always  look  these 
patients  over,  and  see  that  they  are  free  from  any  tuberculosis  or 
syphilitic  condition.  If  I  suspect  that  there  is  any  lung  trouble  I 
examine  the  lungs,  and  I  often  have  them  strip  off,  and  I  examine 
them  after  they  are  stripped,  and  I  choose  those  men  that  show 
themselves  to  be  tidy  and  cleanly. 

Q.  You  choose  those  men  that  have  the  best  sense?  A.  The  men 
who  have  the  most  amount  of  sense. 

Q.  Do  you  recall  ever  sending  any  dirty,  filthy,  incompetent 
patients  to  do  that  work?  A.  No,  I  don’t  remember. 

Q.  You  observed  them  when  they  came  out  and  returned  from 
milking?  A.  I  see  them  occasionally;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  condition  do  you  find  them  in  then  ?  A.  They  are 
generally  covered  with  this  yellow  cotton  seed  meal,  I  suppose  it  is ; 
a  good  deal  of  that  sticking  to  their  clothes,  but  those  patients,  both 
for  the  dining  room  and  kitchen  and  for  the  dairy,  are  bathed  twice 
instead  of  once  a  week,  and  their  clothes  are  changed  twice  a  week. 

Q.  Do  you  see  that  that  is  done?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I  don’t  personally 
see  to  it. 

Q.  You  instruct?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  That  it  be  done?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I  ask  about  it  frequently. 

Q.  Who  has  immediate  charge  of  that,  Mr.  Austin?  A.  Yes,  sir; 
I  frequently  give  those  instructions  to  Mr.  Austin. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  seen  the  milking  going  on?  A.  No,  sir;  I 
have  been  over  to  the  farm  several  times  in  order  to  see  some  sick 
patient  over  there. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  observe  the  milk  when  it  comes  in?  A.  Yes, 
sir;  I  have  seen  it  being  strained. 


430 


Q.  Did  you  see  any  signs  of  filth  in  it?  A.  No,  sir;  I  have  seen 
a  little  sediment  in  the  milk  when  on  the  wards.  Frequently  in 
giving  this  force  feeding,  I  very  often  do  that  myself,  and  I  have 
noticed  a  little  sediment  in  the  bottom  of  the  vessels,  but  I  think  that 
happens  at  most  any  dairy. 

Q.  Do  you  give  them  milk  in  your  department  just  like  they  do  in 
the  others?  A.  The  patients  on  the  hospital  ward  get  milk,  and  of 
course — 

Q.  More  than  the  other  patients?  A.  Yes,  sir;  and,  of  course,  I 
prescribe  the  milk  for  some  others.  We  could  advantageously  use 
more  milk  than  we  do,  but  I  think  usually  the  supply  is  adequate. 

Q.  How  about  the  sick?  Do  you  have  any  special  food  or  atten¬ 
tion  given  to  them  when  they  are  sick?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I  prescribe 
eggs  and  certain  milk,  crackers  and  things  of  that  sort. 

Q.  Do  you  prescribe  yourself?  A.  I  always  prescribe  eggs — and 
I  always  prescribe  milk,  for  that  matter — but  I  always  write  down 
eggs,  and  that  is  taken  down  to  the  kitchen.  I  suppose  it  is  referred 
to  Mr.  Bunch  in  making  up  the  number  of  eggs  necessary  for  the 
day. 

Q.  You  have  no  complaints  of  cruelty  now  in  your  department 
from  any  patient?  A.  No,  sir.  As  I  was  saying,  there  have  been 
some  instances  of  it,  and  I  have  always  reported  that  to  Dr.  Bab¬ 
cock,  and  he  has  always  acted  promptly,  and  I  think  if  any  one  of  you 
could  have  heard  his  reply  to  a  question  I  put  to  him  some  time 
ago,  you  would  have  no  doubt  in  your  minds  of  his  attitude  towards 
cruelty  to  patients. 

Q.  What  is  your  attitude?  A.  Of  course,  I  don’t  allow  it.  I 
speak  to  them  about  it  almost  every  day. 

Q.  What  do  you  do  for  the  amusement  of  those  patients?  A.  I 
don’t  think  they  have  any. 

Q.  Do  they  have  any  outdoor  exercise?  A.  Yes,  sir;  we  have 
a  recreation  ground,  and  I  make  it  a  point  to  get  them  out  there  when 
the  weather  will  permit  it. 

Q.  How  much  space  have  you  there?  A.  Well,  I  have  not  much 
space,  but  it  is  large  enough.  There  is  a  pretty  large  yard  there. 

Q.  Are  they  allowed  to  go  out,  or  do  you  require  special  hours? 
A.  We  have  a  regular  time.  They  can  only  go  upon  the  yard  when 
the  weather  permits.  We  generally  get  them  out  in  the  mornings 
shortly  after  breakfast,  and  they  are  out  there  until  a  little  before 
dinner,  and  go  again  in  the  afternoon. 


43i 


Q.  Are  they  allowed  to  play  cards  or  any  inside  game?  A.  They 
play  cards. 

Q.  Is  there  anything  for  them  to  read,  those  that  can  read?  A. 
We  allow  some  of  them  to  have  magazines  and  books. 

Q.  Do  they  get  those,  or  do  you  furnish  them?  A.  I  think  Mr. 
Bunch  has  sent  some  over  there  on  several  occasions,  and  the  rela¬ 
tives  sometimes  send  them.  We  don’t  approve  of  their  being  sent, 
because  they  scatter  them  about  so. 

Q.  The  clothing  furnished  through  Mr.  Bunch,  is  it  sufficient 
for  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Pretty  good  quality  ?  A.  Yes,  sir ;  we  use  those  army  suits 
to  a  great  extent.  We  have  other  clothes,  too.  I  think  the  clothing 
is  sufficient. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  as  to'  your  crowded  condition  over  there, 
doctor?  A.  I  think  we  need  more  room.  I  think  we  have  a  great 
many  patients  in  rooms  together  that  should  not  be  in  rooms  to¬ 
gether. 

Q.  You  need  more  nurses?  A.  I  think  we  need  two  or  three 
times  as  many  nurses  as  we  have. 

Q.  What  is  your  reason  for  trying  to  get  along  with  so  few 
nurses?  A.  I  suppose  it  is  lack  of  funds. 

Q.  Lack  of  funds?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  do  you  think  would  be  a  reasonable  per  capita  for  the 
colored  patients  per  year?  Would  it  be  as  much  as  for  the  white 
men?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  do.  I  don’t  think  there  is  any  difference  in 
the  treatment  in  the  two'  departments.  I  think  it  would  probably  be 
the  same. 

Q.  The  present  amount  you  get,  do  you  think  that  is  adequate  or 
inadequate  ?  A.  Inadequate. 

Q.  How  much  do  you  think  would  be  adequate?  A.  I  should 
judge  a  hundred  and  fifty-five  to  a  hundred  and  sixty. 

Q.  A  hundred  and  fifty  to  sixty?  A.  Yes,  sir.  That  is  about  the 
amount  in  the  average  institution. 

Q.  Do  you  see  much  of  the  Board  of  Regents?  A.  I  have  in 
some  instances  had  them  to  come  over,  the  executive  Regent. 

Q.  Did  you  take  them  through?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  they  make  an  inspection?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  often  is  that  done?  A.  Well,  I  don’t  think  it  is  done  at 
any  fixed  time. 

Q.  Do  you  feel  yourself  primarily  responsible  over  there  for  the 


432 


conduct  of  that  department?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I  feel  that  I  have  charge 
of  the  department  over  there. 

Q.  You  feel  like  you  are  doing  the  best  you  can  under  existing 
conditions?  A.  I  feel  so. 

Q.  Do  you  think  you  are  doing  it?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  hope  so. 

Q.  In  what  character  of  cases  do  you  call  in  Dr.  Babcock  to 
conference?  A.  Well.  I  frequently  consult  him  about  some  case, 
sometimes  some  physical  complaint,  and  sometimes  some  unusual 
mental  condition.  He  has  always  responded. 

Q.  Do  you  think  the  executive  department  of  this  institution 
enough  for  any  one  man  alone,  or  do  you  think  he  could  do  depart¬ 
ment  work  in  addition?  A.  I  should  think  Superintendent. 

Q.  He  ought  not  to  have  anything  except  that,  and  these  special 
conferences?  A.  No,  sir.  His  time  should  be  devoted  to  the  gen¬ 
eral  management,  and  not  be  burdened  with  any  particular  depart¬ 
ment  of  the  institution. 

Q.  In  the  matter  of  physicians,  do  you  think  another  is  needed 
here?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  there  would  be  if  Dr.  Babcock  was  re¬ 
lieved  of  that  department. 

Q.  The  negro  female  department?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Would  you  suggest  a  male  or  a  female  doctor  over  there?  A. 
I  should  think  a  male. 

Q.  You  have  nothing  to  do  with  the  colored  women?  A.  No, 
sir.  I  get  specimens  from  them  for  examination,  bacteriological 
examination. 

0.  What  kind  of  examination?  A.  Bacteriological. 

0.  How  is  your  death  rate?  A.  Pretty  heavy. 

Q.  What  do  you  attribute  that  to?  A.  Tuberculosis. 

O.  Have  you  much  of  that  over  there?  A.  A  great  deal. 

Q.  Did  they  come  here  with  it,  or  develop  it  after  they  came  here? 
A.  Some  come  here  with  it,  and  a  great  many  develop  it  after  they 
came. 

0.  What  efforts  do  you  make  to  separate  them?  A.  I  always*, 
when  a  case  develops  in  one  of  the  large  rooms,  put  him  into  a  room 
by  himself,  but  we  cannot  do  that  in  every  instance.  We  have  not 
the  rooms. 

Q.  Do  you  ever  put  them  on  the  veranda?  A.  Yes,  sir.  In  one 
instance,  I  remember,  I  had  a  bedridden  case  that  I  put  on  the 
veranda.  He  staid  there  day  and  night. 

Q.  You  have  no  separate  department  to  put  them  in?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  had  any  epidemic  diseases  there?  A.  Measles. 


433 


Q.  How  about  fevers?  A.  A  few  cases  of  typhoid  fever.  I 
think  it  was  last  summer  we  had  two  or  three  cases.  Each  summer 
we  usually  have  a  few ;  not  many,  though. 

Q.  What  treatment  do  you  give  these  tuberculosis  patients?  A. 
Well,  as  I  say,  I  try  to  put  them  in  a  room  to  themselves,  and  in¬ 
sist  upon  their  windows  being  kept  open  so  as  to  give  them  as  much 
fresh  air  as  possible.  I  give  them  as  much  nourishing  food  as  they 
can  possibly  eat ;  eggs,  bread  and  butter ;  and  that  is  all  there  is  to  do. 

Q.  All  you  can  do?  No  drug  treatment  is  necessary?  A.  As  the 
symptoms  arise  I  give  them  something,  and  when  the  coughing  is 
severe  and  various  other  symptoms  that  might  arise.  That  seems  to 
be  the  improved  treatment  of  the  day  for  tuberculosis.  There  is 
no  other  than  fresh  air  and  good  food. 

Q.  They  go  out  pretty  fast  when  it  develops?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
Negroes  seem  to  be  very  prone  to  it. 

Q.  To  the  disease?  A.  It  always  seems  to  run  a  very  rapid  course. 
In  a  great  many  instances  it  assumes  an  acute  type.  Another  thing 
we  have  to  contend  with  is  the  fact  that  they  will  invariably  keep 
the  blankets  over  their  heads.  You  can  tell  them  to  remove  it  a 
thousand  times,  but  still  they  leave  it  over  them. 

Q.  They  can’t  resist  disease  like  a  white  man?  A.  No,  sir,  I  don’t 
think  they  have  the  resistance  of  a  white  man.  You  find  that  among 
the  half-breed,  the  mulattoes,  too. 

Q.  What  is  your  judgment  as  to  this  climate  for  tuberculosis?  A. 
I  think  it  is  prfetty  good.  The  idea  is  that  fresh  air  is  what  accom¬ 
plishes  the  cure,  and  I  believe  you  can  get  as  much  exygen  here  as 
anywhere  else. 

Q.  Have  you  any  patients  in  there  you  think  are  entitled  to  come 
out?  A.  No,  sir.  There  is  one  instance  mentioned  here  by  Dr. 
Babcock  of  a  man  and  his  wife  being  here.  The  man  is  over  in  that 
department.  I  agreed  to  recommend  his  going,  although  I  must 
say  I  feel  a  little  doubt  about  his  case  at  this  time. 

Q.  Have  you  any  disposition  to  keep  anybody  here  after  they 
ought  to  get  out?  A.  No,  sir.  We  haven’t  room  for  those  we  have, 
and  we  would  like  to  get  rid  of  about  fifteen  or  twenty  a  day,  because 
they  are  coming  in  almost  at  that  rate. 

0.  Is  their  coming  on  the  increase?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  rapid  from  one  year  to  another?  A.  I  don’t  know  that  I 
can  give  any  comparative  figures  about  it. 

Q.  Compared  with  when  you  first  came  here,  in  1905?  A.  I  think 


28— A. 


434 


we  are  receiving  a  great  many  more  than  we  were  at  that  time ;  I 
think  the  actual  number  is  greater. 

Mr.  Sawyer — As  to  the  general  physical  condition  of  your  patients 
over  there,  are  they  in  a  generally  fair  condition,  physically  ?  A.  On 
admission  ? 

Q.  Now?  A.  Yes,  sir,  very  good;  very  good,  I  think. 

Q.  Would  not  that  indicate  that  the  food  is  ordinarily  wholesome, 
sustaining  food  ?  A.  I  think — I  am  sure  of  that — they  look  very  well 
nourished. 

Q.  If  they  were  not  pretty  well  nourished,  wouldn’t  they  lose 
flesh?  A.  I  think  it  is  good,  and,  in  many  instances,  better  than 
they  are  accustomed  to. 

Q.  You  said  you  made  a  thorough  inspection  every  morning.  You 
do  not  reside  on  the  grounds?  A.  No,  sir,  but  I  am  subject  to 
orders  here  any  time,  night,  day,  afternoon,  or  any  other  time.  If  I 
have  a  desperately  ill  case  I  come  back  and  see  after  it. 

Q.  Just  as  in  your  private  practice?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  do  anything  besides  look  after  those  colored  male  pa¬ 
tients?  A.  I  do  the  bacteriological  work  of  the  institution. 

Q.  You  make  bacteriological  examinations  for  other  departments 
besides  your  own?  A.  Yas,  sir.  Dr.  Saunders  does  some  of  hers, 
but  I  think  that  is  rather  from  preference.  She  likes  the  work,  but  I 
am  here  for  that  purpose  and  do  the  bulk  of  it. 

Q.  If  there  is  any  general  surgery,  do  you  have  anything  to  do 
with  that?  A.  Yes,  on  the  male  department  I  do.  We  don’t  attempt 
any  abdominal  operations ;  what  we  call  major  operations;  but  if 
amputation  is  needed,  or  an  operation  for  piles,  or  painful  glands,  or 
anything  of  that  sort,  I  do  it. 

Q.  General  surgery?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  appliances  for  that?  How  do  you  arrange  for 
that?  A.  Some  time  ago,  in  an  amputation  of  the  arm,  I  did  it  in 
this  reception  room  down  here. 

Q.  You  fixed  up  the  room?  A.  Yes,  sir  ;  the  nurses  on  the  female 
department  fixed  it  up,  and  we  did  the  operation,  I  think,  in  an 
antiseptic  manner.  There  was  no  supuration. 

Q.  The  nurse  that  assisted  you  in  that ;  was  she  competent  for  that 
class  of  work,  general  surgical  work  ?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  don’t  think, 
as  a  rule,  any  of  the  nurses  have  any  special  training  for  that  line. 
We  haven’t  but  a  little  bit  of  that  sort  of  work.  We  have  a  great 
many  lacerated  wounds.  A  great  many  of  them  come  in  here  with 
them.  A  man  was  received  with  quite  an  extensive  laceration  on  his 


435 


neck,  where  he  cut  himself  on  his  way  over  here  to  the  institution. 
He  had  a  pretty  ugly  wound  when  he  came. 

Q.  Is  he  getting  on  pretty  well?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  dress  him 
myself  every  day. 

Q.  At  this  time  the  profession  is  pretty  well  divided  up  as  to 
surgery?  You  have  said  that  you  had  charge  of  that  class  of  work? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Abdominal  surgery?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  are  you  equipped  today  for  operations  in  general  surgery? 
A.  1  don’t  think  that  we  are  well  equipped  for  that  sort  of  work.  In 
the  department  minor  cases  we  do  on  the  wards.  We  fix  up  a  room. 
We  have  that  room  fumigated,  and  we  have  its  walls  wiped  down 
with  antiseptics,  and  try  to  make  it  as  antiseptic  as  possible. 

Q.  About  as  good  as  a  general  practictioner  would  have  at  his 
office?  A.  Yes,  sir;  or  at  home. 

Mr.  Carey — There  has  been  some  testimony  that  Dr.  Babcock — 
you  may  have  testified  to  that— that  is  contained  in  the  charges  that 
are  made,  that  he  was  not  in  touch  with  certain  departments.  Do  you 
consider  that  Dr.  Babcock,  as  Superintendent,  and  you  as  assistant 
physician  in  this  institution,  that  Dr.  Babcock  is  in  touch  with  you 
and  your  department?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  always  felt  so.  He 
has  certainly  never  ignored  any  suggestions  or  recommendations  I 
have  made  with  regard  to  it,  or  whenever  I  have  consulted  him  he 
has  always  given  me  a  hearing,  and  every  other  consideration. 

Q.  Whenever  you  have-  reported  anything,  as  cruelty  on  the  part 
of  the  nurses,  he  has  always  acted  promptly?  A.  Yes,  sir.  Not 
long  ago  I  went  to  him  about  a  case,  but  I  first  asked  him— I  wanted 
to  get  his  idea  about  the  treatment  of  patients.  I  asked  him  under 
what  conditions  would  a  nurse  be  justified  in  striking  a  patient, 
and  he  answered,  with  a  great  deal  of  feeling  and  emphasis,  “Under 
no  conditions,”  and  I  related  this  case  to  him,  and  he  told  me  to  have 
the  man  sent  to  him  at  once,  and  the  man  was  immediately  dismissed, 
and  the  whole  transaction  was  completed,  I  suppose,  in  half  an 
hour — the  man  was  off  the  premises  in  that  time. 

Q.  You  graduated  at  what  might  be  termed  one  of  the  later 
medical  schools,  under  modern  medical  conditions,  and  you  have 
been  here  nearly  five  years  ?  Do  you  consider  that  Dr.  Babcock  has 
been  guilty  of  inefficiency  or  incapacity,  as  is  charged  here,  in  the 
administration  of  the  affairs  of  this  institution?  A.  1  certainly 
do  not. 

Q.  So  far  as  you  know,  Mr.  Bunch,  in  his  department ;  is  he  an 


436 


efficient  and  capable  manager?  A.  I  certainly  think  so.  Of  course, 
I  have  very  little  to  do  with  the  commissary  department,  or  anything 
of  that  sort,  but  everything  that  I  have  known  of  his  department, 
it  is  as  ideal  as  it  could  be  under  the  circumstances. 

Q.  It  has  been  charged  that  two  or  three  patients  have  bathed  in 
the  same  water.  Has  that  been  done  in  your  department?  A.  I 
heard  a  short  time  ago  that  something  of  that  kind  had  been  done 
in  the  winter  time.  In  the  winter  the  supply  of  hot  water  is  not 
sufficient,  and  we  have  a  great  many  feeble  patients  over  there.  On 
one  ward — it  is  called  old  folks’  home — and  those  patients  cannot 
be  bathed  in  cold  water.  In  other  words,  the  hot  water  supply  is 
inadequate,  and  I  found  that  a  good  many  patients,  or  some 
attendants — I  never  heard  just  how  many;  I  don’t  suppose  more 
than  two  or  three— have  been  bathed  in  the  same  water. 

Q.  Was  that  in  your  department?  A.  Yes,  sir;  but  as  soon  as 
I  heard  about  it  I  got  all  the  nurses  together  and  gave  them  a  talk 
about  it,  and  I  told  them  that  if  anything  of  that  sort  happened  again 
that  they  would  be  reported  to  the  Superintendent,  and  it  would  mean 
their  expulsion. 

0.  At  once?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  it  has  not  occurred  since  then?  A.  No,  sir.  After  that 
I  stationed  a  nurse  over  the  bath.  •  It  is  his  duty  to  stand  over  the 
bathtub  and  see  that  it  is  not  done,  and  I  take  the  pains  to  see  that 
that  nurse  is  standing  there. 

Q.  You  think,  for  an  ordinary  crowd  of  negro  men,  as  the  food  is 
cooked,  that  it  is  wholesome  and  comparatively  well  prepared?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  I  think  it  is  fairly  well  prepared.  I  would  not  just  care 
to  live  on  it  myself. 

0.  It  could  be  better  and  could  be  worse?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Harrison — This  crowded  condition  over  there  I  don’t  think 
has  been  sufficiently  brought  out.  About  how  many  patients  are  on 
the  fourth  ward?  That  is,  the  first  one?  A.  No,  that  is  the 
third  ward.  We  have  one,  two,  three,  and  have  been  calling  that 
lower  ward  the  first,  designated  as  the  first.  We  have  thirty-five 
out  there. 

O.  How  many  nurses  there?  A.  Two. 

Q.  Those  are  violent?  A.  Yes,  sir.  a  great  many  are  violent.  We 
trv  to  put  as  many  violent  patients  as  possible  over  there  as  possible, 
and  when  they  become  quieted  we  put  them  upstairs. 

0.  On  the  first  ward  above  it?  A.  We  have  about  107. 

0.  How  many  nurses  on  that  ward?  A.  Two. 


437 


Q.  Then  on  the  second  ward  ?  A.  The  second  ward  is  the  hospital 
ward.  We  have  three  on  that. 

Q.  How  many  patients?  A.  That  varies. 

Q.  Approximately?  A.  We  have  about  76,  I  think  it  is,  on  there 
today.  I  think  that  is  the  correct  number. 

Q.  The  third  ward?  A.  One  hundred  and  eleven. 

Q.  How  many  nurses?  A.  Two. 

Q.  The  nursing  force,  in  your  opinion,  is  absolutely  inadequate  to 
handle  the  situation?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I  don’t  think  we  have  near  as 
many  as  we  ought  to  have. 

Q.  As  to  the  equipment  that  you  have,  have  you  any  shower 
baths?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  appliances  for  water  treatment  of  the  patients? 

A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  made  an  estimate,  or  have  you  any  idea,  how 
much  it  would  cost  to  install  that  system?  A.  No,  I  have  not.  I 
don’t  know. 

Q.  You  could  not  give  us  an  idea?  A.  I  would  say  offhand  that 
such  equipment  would  cost  several  hundred  dollars. 

Q.  About  what  men  would  you  have  to  have  to  operate  it  after 
it  was  installed  ?  A.  I  think  it  would  require  an  expert. 

Q.  A  bathing  master?  A.  A  masseur;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  He  would  have  to  have  an  assistant?  A.  Yes,  I  think  so. 

Q.  We  are  looking  to  the  future  policy  of  the  institution.  In  case 
you  had  that,  would  not  your  percentage  of  recoveries,  in  your 
judgment,  be  larger,  or  would  it  resolve  itself  into  a  simple  question 
of  judgment?  A.  I  think  possibly  it  would  in  some  instances,  but 
I  don’t  think  hydrotherapy  is  curative  in  every  instance,  by  any 
means. 

Q.  Not  in  every  instance?  A.  I  think  it  is  an  excellent  thing.  I 
think  a  great  deal  is  accomplished  through  it. 

Q.  In  your  judgment,  would  it  not  be  money  very  well  expended, 
other  things  being  equal?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  think  so.  They  are  using 
it  now  in  a  good  many  of  the  institutions  over  the  country. 

Q.  You  have  a  bathtub  and  a  closet  and  arrangements  for  each 
ward,  have  you  not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  are  indoors,  are  they  not?  A.  It  is  just  in  a  large  room. 
It  is  partitioned  off  from  the  bathtub.  It  is  partitioned  off  from  the 
wards. 

Q.  Those  bathrooms  and  water  closets  were  in  a  measure 
separate?  A.  It  is,  of  course,  a  part  of  the  building.  It  is  not  set 


438 


off  at  all.  One  bathroom  is  right  above  the  other.  It  is  a  sort  of 
wing. 

Q.  I  was  trying  to  get  at  the  idea  of  putting  the  bathrooms  in  a 
tower  of  that  sort.  I  believe  that  is  a  sort  of  tower  that  runs  up? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  Isn’t  that  true  ?  A.  It  is  a  sort  of  wing. 

Q.  Isn’t  that  much  better  to  have  it  so  placed?  A.  You  will  have 
to  undo  it  pretty  near.  It  could  not  be  separated. 

Q.  I  notice  in  all  these  new  buildings  that  all  the  bathrooms  are 
put  in  towers?  Don’t  you  think  that  is  an  excellent  idea,  or  do 
you  not?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  do,  in  a  measure;  that  is,  separated  from 
the  main  building;  but  there  is  an  indirect  communication  there. 

Q.  In  other  words,  it  is  more  sanitary?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  about  the  heating  system?  A.  We  have  a  heating  system 
over  there,  but  it  has  not  been  satisfactory. 

Q.  Is  that  from  the  boiler,  too?  A.  It  is  steam  heat.  It  has  been 
necessary  to  keep  the  stoves. 

Q.  That  is  very  bad,  isn’t  it?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  we  should  not 
have  them. 

0.  The  open  stoves?  A.  Yes,  sir.  These  patients  hover  around 
it  in  cold  weather  and  expectorate  on  the  stove  and  around  the  stove, 
and  that  dries,  and  everybody  in  there  is  breathing  tuberculosis 
germs.  That  is  one  of  the  great  dangers.  Sometimes  a  patient  falls. 
There  is  a  kind  of  iron  ring  or  cage,  but  if  the  heating  system  was 
sufficient  it  would  be  far  better. 

0.  About  the  floors  in  that  building,  aren’t  they  in  a  pretty  bad 
condition,  or  are  they  not?  A.  There  is  just  one  single  layer  of 
boards  on  the  floors,  and  whenever  we  scour  the  water  comes  down 
from  the  floor  above. 

Q.  It  is  that  that  causes  the  plastering  to  come  off,  is  it  not?  A. 
I  suppose  so.  I  don’t  believe  there  is  much  plastering  up  there. 

Q.  How  about  your  verandas,  have  you  enough?  A.  I  have 
thought  for  a  long  time  that  we  ought  to  have  a  veranda  on  the 
second  ward,  the  hospital  ward.  That  is  the  one  where  we  have  those 
old  indigent  patients  that  are  unable  to  go  up  and  down  stairs,  and  I 
think  we  ought  to  have  a  place  for  them  to  go  out  into  the  open,  and 
I  think  we  are  very  much  in  need  of  it,  and  I  think  it  would  be  well  to 
have  it  up  above  the  third  ward.  To  my  mind,  it  is  very  necessary 
for  the  hospital  ward,  and  I  think  the  idea  was  to  ha^e  it  provided 
under  the  original  plan  on  the  east  side  of  the  building,  but  it  was 


439 


never  put  there.  The  door,  I  notice,  is  cut  down  to-  the  floor.  I 
believe  I  heard  Dr.  Babcock  say  that  was  the  original  intention. 

Q.  Perhaps  it  has  been  for  lack  of  funds?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  wanted  to  ask  you  about  your  idea  of  the  treatment  of  the 
insane— your  ideas  as  to  work.  Do  you  think  that  beneficial?  A. 
The  treatment  that  we  give? 

Q.  I  mean  your  ideas  as  to  the  future  policy.  What  would  be 
your  idea  of  work,  as  treatment  ?  How  do  you  consider  it,  good  or 
bad — the  value  of  occupation  as  treatment  for  insanity  here?  A. 
I  think  it  is  good.  I  think  it  is  a  diversion  for  the  patient,  and  I 
think  many  of  them  improve  when  they  are  sent  out  to  work.  I  find 
that  to  be  the  case  in  many  instances  here. 

Q.  Any  diversion  would  cause  improvement — amusement  or 
exercise?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  would  you  place  drugs  as  a  treatment  for  insanity  in 
that  list?  A.  That  would  come  way  down.  I  guess  there  are  many 
cases  of  insanity  that  the  conditions  are  dependent  on  physical  con¬ 
ditions,  but  the  mental  condition  is  secondary  to  it.  In  many  cases 
by  building  up  the  general  health  by  means  of  tonics,  etc.,  there  is 
improvement  in  the  mental  condition,  and  insanity  is  due  in  some 
instances  to  a  specific  cause.  By  treating  these  conditions  we  get 
improvement  in  the  mental  condition. 

Q.  In  that  line  of  cases  I  understand  you  do  use  it?  A.  Under 
the  circumstances. 

Q.  Under  the  circumstances  in  which  you  work  you  have  to  use 
quite  a  good  deal  of  physical  restraint?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  If  you  were  able  to  divert  them  more,  could  give  them  more 
exercise,  and  the  water  treatment,  that  would  be  very  largely  reduced, 
would  it  not?  A.  It  probably  would  to  some  extent,  but  I  do  not 
think  to  a  great  extent.  In  a  case  of  excitement,  that  form  of 
insanity  called  mania,  I  think  they  are  going  to  be  excited  anyway. 

Q.  You  would  consider  restraint  to  a  large  extent  a  necessity?  A. 
O,  yes,  sir.  That  is  the  only  possible  way  we  could  control  them. 

Mr.  Hardin — As  a  rule  you  give  them  enough  to  eat?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  are  better  contented  and  easier  to  manage  than  white 
patients?  A.  I  think  there  is  a  good  deal  of  discontentment  among 
them.  They  want  to  go  home.  Many  of  them  chafe  under  the  con¬ 
finement. 

Q.  I  think,  as  a  rule,  negroes,  if  you  give  them  plenty  to  eat,  they 
are  not  as  ambitious  as  white  people,  and  are  much  easier  to 
manage. 


440 


Mr.  Sawyer — In  studying  psychiatry,  you  mentioned  occupation, 
something  about  occupation,  and  you  also  mentioned  sunlight  and 
diversion — where  would  you  put  hydrotherapy  in  the  list  of  treat¬ 
ments,  at  the  head,  as  being  the  best  thing,  or  where?  A.  Just 
above  drugs. 

Q.  Just  above  drugs?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  put  it  down  as  incidental,  as  one  of  the  things  you  can 
do  to  make  up  the  treatment  like  you  would  one  of  the  drugs?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  do  not  think  that  hydrotherapy  is  in  itself  particularly  a 
curative  agent?  A.  No,  sir;  palliative  only. 

Q.  You  spoke  of  this  heating  apparatus  on  that  ward,  and  I 
understood  you  to  say  the  patients  would  fall  upon  the  stove.  I 
thought  I  saw  some  grates?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  mentioned  the  cages. 
They  cannot  get  directly  on  the  stove,  but  I  have  seen  them  stick 
their  hands  through  on  to  the  red  hot  stove. 

Q.  Do  they  get  burned?  A.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  actually  known 
them  to  climb  over  that  grate  to  the  stove. 

Q.  As  to  this  bathroom  situation,  you  say  these  newer  buildings 
have  towers  ?  Do  you  think  it  would  be  good  policy  to  so  alter  that 
building  over  there  as  to  change  it,  considering  the  other  needs  of 
the  institution,  would  you  consider  it  good  policy  to  change  that  to 
put  baths,  or  let  that  stand  and  spend  the  money  for  some  other 
things  that  are  needed  here?  A.  I  would  rather  have  more  room. 
I  would  rather  have  a  veranda  than  to  have  that  change  made. 

0.  If  the  taxpayers  have  got  to  put  up  more  money,  which  they 
have  got  to  do,  do  you  think  it  would  be  the  best  policy  to  spend  the 
money  for  tubercular  patients  in  putting  up  canvas,  or  put  in  one 
of  Dr.  Barouche’s  cabinets?  Which  would  do  the  greatest  good? 
A.  I  think  shacks,  wooden  buildings,  for  tubercular  patients.  I 
think  that  is  the  most  urgent  need  over  there  now. 

Mr.  Harrison — Is  it  not  a  fact  that  every  building  that  Dr. 
Babcock  has  built,  including  the  Parker  building,  has  towers?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Hasn’t  the  Parker  building  those  towers  ?  A.  They  don’t  seem 
to  be  separate. 

Q.  I  don’t  mean  separate;  built  on  to  the  building?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Don’t  you  think  that  is  a  wise  provision  of  the  architect?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  I  do. 

Q.  That  was  the  thing  I  wanted  to  bring  out,  to  show  that  in  the 
erection  of  these  towers  that  Dr.  Babcock  had  acted  wisely  ?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  I  do. 

(The  hearing  thereupon  adjourned  until  the  afternoon.) 


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